India nuclear news and discussion

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Sep 2008 19:44

NNN Preliminary Expert Analysis.

Incorporating the Pranab Mukherjee statement was a fine idea, because that supersedes the previous Indian declaration on this subject, which was ABV offering flat out to sign the CTBT along with the Unilateral Moratorium, if the post-POK2 sanctions were avoided/terminated. Well.... the post-POK-2 sanctions are history, so that alone would have been grounds for demanding CTBT signature.

Instead now India is essentially a NWS under NPT definitions. Per everything I have heard the NWS in the NPT do not trade enrichment tech among themselves (yeah, yeah, US-UQ, US-Israel, and PRC-TSP are always exceptions to everything). So nothing very new there. Read Berman/Lantos' panic on this point in the infamous Letter and you'll see this.

Per discussions here, IIRC, the effect of no "enrichment tech" is not any constraint on weapons development, but will decide what types of fuel and reactors India agrees to buy. So offhand, it looks like any enrichment-tech ban means that Russia and France have the inside track since India can go ahead with existing technology reactors and fuel from them, and the US has work to do to change domestic laws, so it makes no real difference to the US (again see the Berman/Lantos/SD letter). IOW, no real loss to India. As long as reproc is allowed, India maintains all the good things equivalent to entry as an NWS NPT member. Again the kgoan thesis comes into play there, no sense in advertising that further until some more events occur in the short term.

And there is NO ban on weapons development or use of domestic U or Pu for strategic purposes, or on building strategic reserves, AFAIK.

In all those senses, as far I can see (AFAICS), this is a CLEAN and UNCONDITIONAL waiver.

Of course, if there is a live supercritical test, it would be good to do that with notification and clear statements of purpose. This is where India's propaganda machine has shown sore need of our skills in the past (maybe for other reasons) but needs to be much more pro-active in future.

The power of a clear statement from a Mantri is seen very clearly, when it is used by Maestros in the art of wringing necks to get "consensus".

Imagine the groggy rizalds and the bleating kiwisheep, 8 to 12 time zones away from their beds, up until 2AM fighting everyone, and then up again by 9 to consult with their govts, back in session at 11, and the drunken Irish, reaching blood dilution levels of 10 percent in their alcohol content, struggling to keep their eyelids open as the Americans and Russians hammered it home: "THE INDIANS HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT, THE INDIANS HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT U DUMMIES, THE INDIANS HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT, U DUMMIES!..." and the French offered soothing solace: "A leettil more champagne, M'sieur? Avec le Smirnoff? A particularly fine year, Chateau L'If 2002?"

It's not for nothing that the CIA practices "debriefing techniques" in Pakistan and Guano Bay. Comes in real handy in situations like these.

(BTW, I just have not understood what was biting the musharrafs of the Irish and the Prussians. What do THEY have against India? Or were they proxies for someone else?)

The author is an Exalted Fellow of the Institute for Inverted Thinking and prefers to remain anonymous.

NNN. Only the Best Rumors (Inductive Proofs) Floated, and Never Before Their Time.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Sep 2008 19:44

Our comrades bosses propaganda media covers the news along with same bland statement from the Chinese rep. to Vienna

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/

What can China do now? It has tried every trick in the book and failed. Me thinks it will ask the Comrades to start demanding that only Chinese reactors should be imported. Just as they lobby for Huawei, Chinese aerobridges and other stuff.

Posting the main page link to show the kind of importance attached to this by the sulking comrades!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 06 Sep 2008 19:48

A hard lesson for the successful Olympics gloating Panda's. A long way to go before this super power in waiting can match upto the Hyper Power.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Sep 2008 19:52

from this website http://www.hinduonnet.com/holnus/000200809061969.htm

During the entire process, "India was obliged to respect countries like Austria, New Zealand and Ireland as nuclear suppliers. What kind of suppliers are they God only knows," he said sarcastically.

Iyengarvaal got this absolutely right! Now we have to 'apply the naamam' to these pipsqueaks. (For non-tamilians, applying the naamam is popularly used to mean 'cheat /fool'. Literally it denotes the Vaishnavaite symbol applied by them on their foreheads)

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 06 Sep 2008 19:53

I am surprised media other than NDTV not prominently reporting that NSA said India is somewhat disappointed with china and will take it up with china's foreign minister. I saw that interview and MKN was explicit about it. We will see how Hindu spins that. They will not report most likely.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Sep 2008 19:57

Neshant wrote:one failed h-bomb test does not make for a reliable deterrent.

And who says it failed?

rocky · Post by **rocky** » 06 Sep 2008 19:58

from this website http://www.hinduonnet.com/holnus/000200809061969.htm

During the entire process, "India was obliged to respect countries like Austria, New Zealand and Ireland as nuclear suppliers. What kind of suppliers are they God only knows," he said sarcastically.

They are white "suppliers", if that was so hard to comprehend. They supply all the moral capital required.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Sep 2008 20:02

Classic!

A statement issued by Austrian Foreign Ministry said, "After protracted negotiations, the NSG today adopted an exemption for nuclear exports to India. We are finally convinced by Pranab's (India's External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee) statement and India's commitment to Non proliferation.

(IOW, the Americans convinced us that certain questions that had come up in investigations by the Department of Homeland Security, CIS, regarding CVs of certain Austrian diplomats and their relatives in the US, were pending on Secretary Rice's desk)

"We continue to have concerns on language on testing but we will not block consensus."

(IOW, our musharrafs are hurting bad)

Austrian Foreign Ministry Peter Launsky said, "A sense of relief is prevailing over here."

(Just how far is the Russian border from Austria again?)

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Sep 2008 20:04

Only the US Congress approval left

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 06 Sep 2008 20:05

jerry wrote:For those who were debating about our bums!

Was just listening to Brajesh Mishra's interview on NDTV and he said that when ABV said about unilateral moratirum there was a lot of thinking behind it by them and the scientists and he feels that there is no need for India to test unless another country tests and he wouldnt like to name that country and India feels a risk from that test.

This is my first and ONLY comment on testing. There will be no replies to the barrage heading my way.

1) India is not ready to test anything significant. Unlike China, the Indian nuclear weapons establishment hasnt got the technological infrastucture, skills, expertise, or designs worth testing, YET. Those who had called for immediate testing if the NSG failed to deliver would have jeapordised Indias interests for a very very long time and perhaps for generations.

2)Time for testing will come. It will come in the fullness of time. The near time opportunity to test will come when Iran tests ( about 5 years, maybe earlier ) unless US/Israel take the military option. Even the military option may not be enough to stop Iran from testing. At that point in time India will point out that a NPT SiGNATORY country that had been accorded rights by the NSG had violated both, and posed a significant danger to the region, ( something the US EU etc are certainly not going to argue with ), India therfore must demonstrate its capability to deter any regional adventures. India then can also logically conclude that the NPT/NSG regime has incontrovertably broken down.

3) Number 2 assumes that India has moved at least a couple of gears up in its nuclear weapons infrastucture and its skills base. If not, then India will have to wait. There will be further opportunities. Much of Indias "futuristic technological achievements" that brites tend to endlessly bray about is vapourware, and unless India learns quickly to walk the talk, testing should be resisted.

4) I have supported ABV in the past and he served this nation well. MMS has also served this nation honourably. We may not have acheived everything that we wanted from 123 IAEA or the NSG, but without a doubt this is a seminal moment for India. BJP has played politics with Indias future. National political skullduggery is fine, but to join with Indias inveterate enemies, CHICOMS, to bring down a chance for India to release or at least relax the deathly grip of decades of sanctions is the height of treachery. The Pakis couldnt have done worse, infact the BJP was in the same bed as the Pakis, the CHICOMS our own communists and maoists. People must draw thier own conclusions about where the BJP is heading.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Sep 2008 20:06

JEM:

... b4 some serious musharraf-soccer across the LOC.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2008 20:07

Narayanan Ji,

In your very nice analysis, you made just a little typing error. Austrians are not Prussians. They are usually known as Habsburger if anything other than Österreicher.

Just my 2 ¢.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Sep 2008 20:10

Looks like indeed Unkil kept his end of the bargain and really did do some heavy-lifting at the NSG. Only proves my point that not a leaf moves without Unkil's approval. Forget the pipsqueaks, even the so called super power China huffed and puffed but fell in line.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/in ... liers.html

"But for the first time in my experience of international diplomatic negotiations, a consensus decision was followed by complete silence in the room. No clapping, nothing," a European diplomat in the Vienna gathering said.

"It showed a lot of us felt pressured to some extent into a decision by the Americans and few were totally satisfied."

Only time will tell if India has moved out of the India-TSP equal equal box. Lots of gratuitous, condescending references to so called 'arms race' with this terrorist entity:

It also said India -- whose regional rival Pakistan also has nuclear firepower outside the NPT -- would not join any future nuclear arms race, would permit broader U.N. inspections and adhered to the NSG anti-proliferation export control regime.

NSG critics and disarmament campaigners fear Indian access to nuclear material markets will let it tap into more of its limited indigenous resources, such as uranium fuel, to boost its nuclear arsenal, and drive Pakistan into another arms race.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Sep 2008 20:20

Rajesh: Just b4 WW2, the German Army, mainly the SS, marched into Austria in the "Anschluss", and sent all the Eidelweiss admirers to enjoy the meathook suspension exercises. (See "Sound of Music" for the made-4-children version).

Today's Austria is a haven for ex-Nazis, and is one of the most repressive, closed-minded countries in the world, despite the outward appearance of Vienna and Salzburg as havens of haute-culture and classical music.

The Red Army cleaned out most of the Nazis in East Germany, and the Allies pretended to get rid of many Nazis in West Germany, esp. to placate Israelis, but I think u will find that even Weisenthal had very little success in Austria.

I was once on a flight across the US. My neighbor was a Jewish lady who was returning after cremating her mother in the Eastern US. A Californian who usually traveled Biz Class, but had to use Frequent Flyer miles to make this urgent trip, so she was in the Cattle Class, and she clearly needed to keep talking to keep her mind off her mother. Very very smart person - the 5-hour trip was over before I knew it. Among many other things I learned of her lifetime of travel all over the world, was her experience of taking a trip to Vienna.

Very scary place. Everywhere you look you see these hostile men, most of them ex-Nazis. I never want to go there again.

The Austrian netaship, I'm afraid, is very much dominated by the same crowd that took Germany into WW2. Like Kurt Waldheim etc, who came from the insider establishment of post-WW2 Austria.

U will see some of the scary aspects of Austria coming through in the Eric Ambler books too.

Austria is very far from being a modern democracy. Which is why I ask what their netas' gripe was/is. I do believe the Russians and Americans kicked them all over the place.

Probably an insult to the decent Prussians to call them Austrians....

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Sep 2008 20:22

RajeshA wrote:BJP is still making noises, that it is a sellout of India's sovereignty....

The Point is the Indo-US Nuclear Deal (Hyde+123) says that there will be consequences if India tests, just as there were consequences after India tested in 1998. Can BJP claim, that there were no sanctions after 1998?

Before 1998 there was sanctions on India. 1998 test showed Indians that those sanctions was irrelevant. That led to further negotiations.
But Hyde act has again put constraints on India. It has to be removed.
Everything is on the Hyde Act. As somebody said without US nothing moves in all the international entities - Hyde act has put India within US congress and POTUS inspection regime. This has to go. This is the biggest disappointment of this entire deal.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Sep 2008 20:22

After two weeks of feverish meetings and long-distance consultations, resistance to the exemption finally crumbled when six holdout states reluctantly accepted an Indian declaration on Friday reinforcing a commitment to a voluntary test moratorium.

It also said India -- whose regional rival Pakistan also has nuclear firepower outside the NPT -- would not join any future nuclear arms race, would permit broader U.N. inspections and adhered to the NSG anti-proliferation export control regime.

When it comes to strategic events it is a Indo-China dynamic that counts.

Some thing that India and Indians need to push hard.

Pakistan is and needs to be painted as a nation that generates terrorists - which is a fact that has been reflected in statements from US politicians. On that topic there is not better nation than India to lead the effort to correct the situation in Pakistan.

On the topic of 6-pack, it is now down to 1-pack - China. Without a doubt. And there is no masking that fact.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Sep 2008 20:25

India's legal right to conduct N tests preserved: Kakodkar

New Delhi, Sep 6 (PTI) India's "legal" right to conduct nuclear tests has been fully preserved and the country has not made any commitment in this regard to gain the waiver from the NSG to participate in nuclear commerce, Anil Kakodkar, Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission said today.

"There is no explicit mention of (nuclear) testing (in the NSG waiver)," he told reporters here making it clear that the exemption granted to India by the 45-nation cartel met all requirements of the Department of Atomic Energy.

"We have made no legal commitment (on nuclear tests)," Kakodkar said underlining that India has already made a unilateral, voluntary moratorium on conducting atomic tests.

"Today is an important day as we have achieved a major breakthrough," he said and termed the waiver to India as "unique" as it will open the doors for the country to take part in international civil nuclear commerce after 34 years of isolation.

Asked about the amendments India had to accept to win over sceptical NSG members, he said "there is nothing significant. You can see it for yourself when the waiver document is made public by the NSG shortly. It is a straightforward document." "There is no specific targeting of India on anything," the country's top nuclear scientist said.

"I think it is clear that people have understood and recognised the importance of this exemption for India from India's track record, behaviour and energy needs," he said when asked what he felt led to the waiver from the guidelines of the cartel that controls international nuclear trade.

Kakodkar said India's three-stage nuclear programme will continue.

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Sep 2008 20:31

BJP has done what any responsible party in India has to. They have dissected, critiqued and opposed anything that stood in the way of India's strategic decision making and independence. Unlike Left they read the documents and presented the clauses of concern to the public and media, do not make unreasonable and naive allegations. Gloating over the waiver does not mean that everything is good and this is the end of history as we know it. Let fine print come in and then we will see. But BJP is not with Pakis or anyone if you do not know the inner dynamics of our polity then please desist from making inflammatory and unsubstantiated comments. No need for arm chair wisdom.

Mods please stop BJP or any party bashing otherwise allow other posters to retaliate.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 06 Sep 2008 20:37

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

Rice said she spoke to Chinese officials this morning as well as negotiators from Ireland and Austria, the last holdout at the three-day meeting in Vienna.
....

General Electric, the world's biggest maker of energy- generation equipment, said Aug. 25 that it may lose contracts in India to French, Russian and Japanese rivals if Congress doesn't ratify a U.S.-India nuclear deal soon after the agreement wins approval from the Suppliers Group.

Rice said the U.S. has talked to India about the potential competitive disadvantage.

``I think they recognize and appreciate American leadership on this issue,'' she said. ``Because of that I think we'll have ways to talk them about not disadvantaging American companies.''
Still, she said ``the best thing would be to get it through Congress.''

And now starts commercial wars ...

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 06 Sep 2008 20:38

India gets NSG waiver

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NSG_ ... 452272.cms

VIENNA: The Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) on Saturday granted India a crucial waiver that will enable it to carry out nuclear commerce, ending 34 years of isolation enforced in the wake of the 1974 Pokharan nuclear tests. ( Watch )

The unprecedented decision of the 45-nation nuclear cartel giving exemption to a country which has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) is a landmark step in the implementation of the Indo-US nuclear deal that will now go to the US Congress for approval.

"After protracted negotiations, the NSG today adopted an exemption for nuclear exports to India," the Austrian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

"There is a sense of relief. I am particularly happy that the waiver (for India) meets with international nuclear non-proliferation architecture," Peter Launsky, Austrian foreign ministry spokesman said after an unscheduled meeting of the NSG here.

Austria, along with Ireland, New Zealand and Switzerland had expressed strong reservations over the waiver being given to India that forced the grouping to have an unscheduled meeting on Saturday after two days of deliberations failed to produce a consensus.

Gentlemen, the sixth officially recognised nuclear power on Earth is........

........ ................

.......... .............

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Sep 2008 20:42

Acharya wrote: Before 1998 there was sanctions on India. 1998 test showed Indians that those sanctions was irrelevant. That led to further negotiations.
But Hyde act has again put constraints on India. It has to be removed

I mostly agree with you, but this nonsense that poset Pokhran-2 sanctions had no effect on India has been repeated so aften that a falsehood is twisted and spun for what its not. First, after 1998, can you forget Jassu bhai's bending down on the knees, begging for forgiveness sessions in front of "his friend Strobe"? Also, when were the sanctions actually lifted? It was after 9/11, when Mush fell in line, sanctions were lifted on TSP, and equal equal called for them to be lifted on India too. Perhpahs India did not collapse as a reult of US sanctions, but lets not be too cocky visa vi US, they can do some serious damage to India on the economic fronts using all the leverage they have. It was Tom Friedman who said that it was not General Powell who forced India to back off after TSP attacked Indian parliament, it was General Electric.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 06 Sep 2008 20:44

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=467190&sid=NAT

NSG waiver for India -- Reactions
Zeenews Bureau

Following are the reactions to NSG’s granting of waiver to India to carry our nuclear trade:

M K Narayanan, NSA advisor to PM

“We have realised this (clean waiver from NSG) from the very beginning. For this we have to put forth our record of non-proliferation and cleared India’s stand in this regard properly in front of the world community.”

“We hope that we never have to conduct a nuclear test. But if the necessity arises we will conduct a test and we are prepared to do that. We have never compromised on our strategic interest.”

Commenting on China, the NSA advisor said: “We are disappointed with China. I think in the last 48 to 72 hours the Chinese have sided with the sceptics despite our interactions at the very higher level.”

Anil Kakodkar, AEC chief

Atomic Energy Commission Chairman Anil Kakodkar, who played a crucial role in getting the NSG waiver, said: “It’s an important breakthrough for our nation’s development. It is a fully acceptable document and meets the conditions of the Department of Atomic Energy.”

“There was no mention of testing in the draft,” Kakodkar clarified. “In short term it will be an ‘additional’ to domestic nuclear programme, and in the long run this waiver will widen the energy prospects,” he added.

The AEC chairman further clarified: “There are certain provisions in the NSG guideline which will be also applicable to India.”

US Ambassador to India, David Mulford

“It is a triumphant day for India and the waiver will strengthen global non-proliferation efforts. We will now move forward to accomplish the final step with our Congress,” Mulford said.

So far only NDTV and Zee news have reported on NSA statement about China. Its disappointing that most of media outlets are not reporting this significant statement.

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Sep 2008 20:46

Well said Crams and that is why it makes eminent sense to have heavy duty interest involved in Indian economy of the US firms. My question to all the gyani posters is that what is the level and size of American involvement in civil nuclear energy sector of China and how fast can we catch and match up in that field?

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 06 Sep 2008 20:47

Chronology of India's nuclear journey

1968: India refuses to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) on the grounds that it is discriminatory.

May 18, 1974: India conducts its first nuclear test.

March 10, 1978: US President Jimmy Carter signs the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Act, following which US ceases exporting nuclear assistance to India.

May 11-13, 1998: India tests five underground nuclear tests.

July 18, 2005: US President George W Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh first announce their intention to enter into a nuclear agreement in Washington.

March 1, 2006: Bush visits India for the first time. March 3, 2006: Bush and Singh issue a joint statement on their growing strategic partnership, emphasising their agreement on civil nuclear cooperation.

July 26, 2006: The US House of Representatives passes the 'Henry J Hyde United States-India Peaceful Atomic Energy Cooperation Act of 2006,' which stipulates that Washington will cooperate with New Delhi on nuclear issues and exempt it from signing the Nonproliferation Treaty.

July 28, 2006: The Left parties demand threadbare discussion on the issue in Parliament.

November 16, 2006: The US Senate passes the 'United States-India Peaceful Atomic Energy Cooperation and US Additional Protocol Implementation Act' to "exempt from certain requirements of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 United States exports of nuclear materials, equipment, and technology to India."

December 18, 2006: President Bush signs into law congressional legislation on Indian atomic energy.

July 27, 2007: Negotiations on a bilateral agreement between the United States and India conclude.

Aug 3, 2007: The text of the 'Agreement for Cooperation between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of India concerning peaceful uses of nuclear energy' (123 Agreement) is released by both governments.

Aug 13, 2007: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh makes a suo motu statement on the deal in Parliament.

Aug 17, 2007: CPI(M) General Secretary Prakash Karat says the 'honeymoon (with government) may be over but the marriage can go on'.

Sept 4, 2007: UPA-Left committee to discuss nuclear deal set up.

Feb 25, 2008: Left parties say the UPA would have to choose between the deal and its government's stability.

March 3, 2008: Left parties warn of 'serious consequences' if the nuclear deal is operationalised.

March 6, 2008: Left parties set a deadline asking the government to make it clear by March 15 whether it intended to proceed with the nuclear deal or drop it.

March 7, 2008: CPI writes to the Prime Minister, warns of withdrawal of support if government goes ahead with the deal.

March 14, 2008: CPI(M) says the Left parties will not be responsible if the government falls over the nuclear deal.

April 23, 2008: Government says it will seek the sense of the House on the 123 Agreement before it is taken up for ratification by the American Congress.

June 17, 2008: External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee meets Prakash Karat, asks the Left to allow the government to go ahead with IAEA safeguards agreement.

June 30, 2008: Prime Minister says his government prepared to face Parliament before operationalising the deal.

July 8, 2008: Left parties withdraw support to government.

July 9, 2008: The draft India-specific safeguards accord with the IAEA circulated to IAEA's Board of Governors for approval.

July 10, 2008: Prime Minister calls for a vote of confidence in Parliament.

July 14, 2008: The IAEA says it will meet on August 1 to consider the India-specific safeguards agreement.

July 18, 2008: Foreign Secretary Shivshankar Menon briefs the IAEA Board of Governors and some NSG countries in Vienna on the safeguards agreement.

July 22, 2008: Government is willing to look at "possible amendments" to the Atomic Energy Act to ensure that the country's strategic autonomy will never be compromised, says Prime Minister Singh.

July 22, 2008: UPA government wins trust vote in the Lok Sabha.

July 24, 2008: India dismisses warning by Pakistan that the deal will accelerate an atomic arms race in the sub-continent.

July 24, 2008: India launches full blast lobbying among the 45-nation NSG for an exemption for nuclear commerce.

July 25, 2008: IAEA secretariat briefs member states on India-specific safeguards agreement.

Aug 1, 2008: IAEA Board of Governors adopts India-specific safeguards agreement unanimously.

Aug 21-22, 2008: The NSG meet to consider an India waiver ends inconclusively amid reservations by some countries.

Sep 4-6, 2008: The NSG meets for the second time on the issue after the US comes up with a revised draft and grants waiver to India after marathon parleys.

Self respect ripens fruits after 40 years, but the world changes now, in fact started changing in 1968

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2008 20:50

narayanan wrote: Austria is very far from being a modern democracy. Which is why I ask what their netas' gripe was/is. I do believe the Russians and Americans kicked them all over the place.

Probably an insult to the decent Prussians to call them Austrians....

Prussians and the Bavarians have a little (friendly) axe to grind. Austrians are quasi-Bavarians. I've been raving mad about the Austrians recently, so distinguishing the two also keeps the peace in the family.

Austria's problem is that of Morality. It is more like an itch for Austrians and they feel obliged to let the world know that they have changed, so they need some fresh soot on their history books. This Indian Deal allowed them to dive into collective amnesia for some time, and think that they are a Power For Good in the World and the world knows that and appreciates that. All these multilateral fora is one grand stage for them to write new chapters in their history, so that the old chapters get buried under the new ones.

Call it a sinner looking around for opportunities to collect some more halo. The more halo one has, the less one would look at the sinner's history and the more he can sin without suspicion or opposition (if he wants to).

Austria is also going to become the hub for the distribution network of Gazprom in Europe, so I guess the Russians did have some channels into Austria. Don't know, whether they used them or not.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Sep 2008 20:51

CRamS wrote:
I mostly agree with you, but this nonsense that poset Pokhran-2 sanctions had no effect on India has been repeated so aften that a falsehood is twisted and spun for what its not.

I never posted this. I posted that the previous sanctions of 1974, 1979 was irrelevant since the nation has moved on with capabilities.

2002 standoff and other things with Pakistan is not relevant on the US sanctions on India

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2008 20:56

I for one think, that the Opposition of the Left and BJP in the end, did mean that MMS and his negotiating partners had a very short leash, which helped India get a relatively good deal.

However I don't think that the BJP saw that as their role, but honestly wanted this Govt to fall and the Nuclear Deal to land in the dustbin, simply because it was not them, who were clinching this deal.

The Left, well you know....

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 06 Sep 2008 20:58

sivab wrote:http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=467190&sid=NAT

NSG waiver for India -- Reactions
Zeenews Bureau

Following are the reactions to NSG’s granting of waiver to India to carry our nuclear trade:

M K Narayanan, NSA advisor to PM

“We have realised this (clean waiver from NSG) from the very beginning. For this we have to put forth our record of non-proliferation and cleared India’s stand in this regard properly in front of the world community.”

“We hope that we never have to conduct a nuclear test. But if the necessity arises we will conduct a test and we are prepared to do that. We have never compromised on our strategic interest.”

Commenting on China, the NSA advisor said: “We are disappointed with China. I think in the last 48 to 72 hours the Chinese have sided with the sceptics despite our interactions at the very higher level.”

Something must have changed in last 48 to 72 hours for lizard to show its true colors, despite assurances to contrary. What was it?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2008 21:01

sivab wrote:
Something must have changed in last 48 to 72 hours for lizard to show its true colors, despite assurances to contrary. What was it?

Everything else failed.

Maybe they were surprised with the intensity with which the Americans bargained in favor of India.

Maybe Hu just wanted to hear Bush's friendly voice.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Sep 2008 21:03

BJP, Left slam NSG waiver

The main opposition party's attack was no different with former External Affairs Minister and senior BJP leader Yashwant Sinha claiming that "India has forever lost the right to conduct nuclear tests." "The NSG waiver has come after so many deliberations ... obviously there have been giveaways by India," he said.

India needs no "right" to conduct a nuclear test. If it has to do so, it should do so.

Either the deal is acceptable or it is not.
If it is not, Sinha should simply issue a statement that a future BJP government will abrogate the deal and test nuclear weapons. End of story.

What is this "forever" business?
Does any Japanese right winger whine that Japan has forever lost the right to test nuclear weapons?

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Sep 2008 21:08

RajeshA had the BJP had the bent of mind which a lot of posters allege then it could have gone all out and given any and every bribe to see the government fall. I am serious when I say this it was well within them to trash the government but they wanted the UPA to collapse and definitely did not want to overthrow them out of spite. As far as the role in the deal negotiation goes, please mark my words there are wheels within wheels, you dont know what they were doing.

. The ultimate truth:
Na Iti
Na Iti

Not This
Not This
Why do you our chankian yindoos miss subtle realities? Perhaps all is maya

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 06 Sep 2008 21:09

Something must have changed in last 48 to 72 hours for lizard to show its true colors, despite assurances to contrary. What was it?

by this china ensures that it waits for a payback from India, GOI must tell them that nuclear commerce with them is a rare and a suspected case,thats what unkil wanted.

china will be paying back fruits of its treachery which is in their veins,..

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Sep 2008 21:11

Gerard wrote:BJP, Left slam NSG waiver
Either the deal is acceptable or it is not.
If it is not, Sinha should simply issue a statement that a future BJP government will abrogate the deal and test nuclear weapons. End of story.

Gerard just as the result of this deal is a Trishanku heaven for India, the reply of the BJP is also a Trishanku one.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Sep 2008 21:11

sivab wrote:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

Rice said she spoke to Chinese officials this morning as well as negotiators from Ireland and Austria, the last holdout at the three-day meeting in Vienna.
....

General Electric, the world's biggest maker of energy- generation equipment, said Aug. 25 that it may lose contracts in India to French, Russian and Japanese rivals if Congress doesn't ratify a U.S.-India nuclear deal soon after the agreement wins approval from the Suppliers Group.

Rice said the U.S. has talked to India about the potential competitive disadvantage.

``I think they recognize and appreciate American leadership on this issue,'' she said. ``Because of that I think we'll have ways to talk them about not disadvantaging American companies.''
Still, she said ``the best thing would be to get it through Congress.''
And now starts commercial wars ...

A report did mention that GHB and MMS have a Gentlemans understanding that American companies will not put in disadvantage due to any delays in US Congress. Infact by the time babus issue tender in triplicate, followed chai biscoot in duplicate and more commercial negotiations in triplicate, Congress would have passed all necessary legislations!

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Sep 2008 21:19

Gerard wrote:BJP, Left slam NSG waiver
The main opposition party's attack was no different with former External Affairs Minister and senior BJP leader Yashwant Sinha claiming that "India has forever lost the right to conduct nuclear tests." "The NSG waiver has come after so many deliberations ... obviously there have been giveaways by India," he said.
India needs no "right" to conduct a nuclear test. If it has to do so, it should do so.

Either the deal is acceptable or it is not.
If it is not, Sinha should simply issue a statement that a future BJP government will abrogate the deal and test nuclear weapons. End of story.

What is this "forever" business?
Does any Japanese right winger whine that Japan has forever lost the right to test nuclear weapons?

Agreed Gerard. They should simply make a statement that, if the BJP comes to power, this deal will be abrogated. End of story.

Now, here is what such a statement would mean. The INC will get a new ally to fight Indian elections, the might of the US Government.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Sep 2008 21:34

India thanks NSG's Big Four for 'unique' waiver
New Delhi, Sep 6 (IANS) External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee Saturday thanked the US, Britain, France and Russia for pushing the "unique" waiver for India in the NSG and underlined that the nuclear deal was in accordance with assurances the government has given to parliament.

"I am happy to inform you that the NSG have adopted a statement on civil nuclear cooperation which will enable India to resume full civil nuclear cooperation with the international community to meet its energy and developmental requirements," a beaming Mukherjee told reporters here while formally announcing the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) decision to grant a waiver to India.

"We welcome this decision and thank the members of the NSG. You will appreciate that this also constitutes a major landmark in our quest for energy security," he said.

"This decision will open a new chapter in India's cooperation with other countries in peaceful uses of nuclear energy," Mukherjee underlined.

Mukherjee's statement Friday reiterating India's commitment to voluntary moratorium on testing and universal nuclear disarmament played a key role in persuading sceptics to back the nuclear deal.

"It is a development of major significance to global energy security and would also be a contribution to meeting the challenges of climate change," he said.

"The NSG waiver is a unique development that has been achieved in accordance with commitments given to parliament and the people of India, and is consistent with India's national interest," Mukherjee assured with an eye on domestic critics of the deal.

The minister conveyed deep appreciation for untiring efforts of the US, Britain, France and Russia and former chairs of the NSG - Germany, South Africa and Brazil - to help India in the nuclear grouping.

He also thanked US President George W. Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice for their "personal contribution and commitment" to taking forward the India-US nuclear deal.

"This landmark achievement is the direct outcome of the vision, personal commitment and guidance provided by Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh," he said.

Former PM Gujral welcomes NSG waiver
New Delhi, Sept 6 (ANI): Former Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral tonight welcomed the waiver given by the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to the US-India civil nuclear cooperation deal.

Reacting to the NSG's decision Mr. Gujral said: "I have always supported the nuclear deal as it ends India's nuclear isolation and places it into a different league altogether."

Gujral added that apart from positions taken and political compulsion by various opposition groups, the fact is "no political party can deny that the nuclear deal will work to India's advantage".

His reaction came after the 45 nation NSG granted India an unconditional waiver to activate its nuclear commercial relation with the rest of the world.

The NSG approval ends 34 years of isolation enforced upon India following the 1974 Pokhran nuclear tests. (ANI)

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 06 Sep 2008 21:35

Gerard wrote:BJP, Left slam NSG waiver
The main opposition party's attack was no different with former External Affairs Minister and senior BJP leader Yashwant Sinha claiming that "India has forever lost the right to conduct nuclear tests." "The NSG waiver has come after so many deliberations ... obviously there have been giveaways by India," he said.
India needs no "right" to conduct a nuclear test. If it has to do so, it should do so.

Either the deal is acceptable or it is not.
If it is not, Sinha should simply issue a statement that a future BJP government will abrogate the deal and test nuclear weapons. End of story.

What is this "forever" business?
Does any Japanese right winger whine that Japan has forever lost the right to test nuclear weapons?

Gerard I agree. WTF is this loser Yashwant Sinha talking about morality. He should look at himself first, as a finance minister how he helped his daughter who was living in mauritius working for Merrill Lynch like company as a analyst. She was 100% accurate in predicting economic policy of India at that time. She made truck load of money during his tenure. This is the reason why Indian politicians are hated.

How this deal was approved it just shows the prowess of Unkil. It is amazing to see the single minded focus of Unkil's determination to make it happen. We all may not like Unkil for whole lot of reasons or like him for whole lot of reasons that is an individual choice but Unkil has undoubtedly earned the respect of Indians from all spectrum. It remains to be seen how Aussie will behave--if they will open the doors for Urnamium export to us. I am sure American companies will bag the majority of contracts, economic conditions in USA are not favourable right now, America is teetring on the edge of recession, these lucrative contracts will definitely bring alot of jobs to americans in manufacturing sector hence boosting exports. These companies will need IT Support and Services that is where Indian companies can gain earn revenue beside the tie ups that will happen with Indian companies in constructing these power plants. If GOI and her mandarins are smart and can act as baniya--we can negotiate IT services business with the countries that will win these contracts. After all business is a two way street. Indian companies should also play this card to shore up business for themselves. Only USA, France, Russia, Japan, UK have the technological prowess needed to fulfill our requirements. I think contracts will work.......
USA--40%
Russia--25%
France--20%
UK--10%
Japan--5%
Numbers may change but preference will be given to USA, Russia, France.
Just my thoughts

A Arun · Post by **A Arun** » 06 Sep 2008 21:36

sunilUpa wrote:A report did mention that GHB and MMS have a Gentlemans understanding that American companies will not put in disadvantage due to any delays in US Congress. Infact by the time babus issue tender in triplicate, followed chai biscoot in duplicate and more commercial negotiations in triplicate, Congress would have passed all necessary legislations!

The NSA in his interview to NDTV also said that USA will be given its due share of nuclear commerce for having delivered the waiver.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Sep 2008 21:37

"It is also China's hope that the NSG would equally address the aspirations of all parties for the peaceful use of nuclear power while adhering to the nuclear non-proliferation mechanism," he said, apparently alluding to Pakistan's repeated attempts to get a civil nuclear deal with the United States, similar to the Indo-US agreement.

why discriminate against Xerox Khan..we are all for free trade onlee...

linky

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Sep 2008 21:37

The BJP's position is finely tuned and well calibrated. It is an opposition position, not a government position. It must be seen in that light, because that is what it had to do. They have gone to remarkable lengths to reiterate that their position is not anti-American but rather that it is anti-erosion of strategic autonomy.

As such, their emphasis in recent months has been less and less on technological issues (the inadequacy of the Shakti series, for instance) than on the potential losses to be incurred if we test after years of investment in the sector. This is not a particularly strong argument, and we can be quite certain they know that. But it is one that is convenient because, should they come to power, it is a position they can comfortably retreat from as developments show that the investments will not come under serious threat as the sanctioneers, for lack of a better word, will effectively have to strike at their own companies to some considerable degree.

Please note that, as was repeatedly stated on this forum, the BJP did not put anything more than rhetorical spokes in the wheel - all the while offering reassuring noises, through Mishra in particular. We can predict with a fair degree of confidence that the BJP's aversion to the deal will decline to the point of enthusiasm in the coming years. I hope that the process begins soon... Some recent appearances by their point men on TV have hardly been edifying.

On the other hand, the BJP is not exactly long experienced at being the primary opposition party... So rough edges may be expected. But we should refrain from looking too closely. The Congress does not exactly come through with shining colours either. They could have managed the whole thing with a little more finesse, if they looked at a little more of the horizon than their petrifying ideological blinkers allowed... But then again, they too cannot be viewed monolithically.

On the whole, all's well that ends well - at least the way I personally see it.

Now to watch the commies deal with the joker in their pack: Karat.

N, absolutely... The Americans are certainly getting itchy fingers on the other side as well... The timing could not have been more exquisite... NSG Waiver for India, Mr. 10% for Pakisatan. Each gets what it deserves.