Farnborough International Airshow 2010 (19th - 25th July)

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 18 Jul 2010 10:13

Shots from Farnborough dated July 16th & 17th - http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.s ... arnborough

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2010 12:22

have to agree with Vina - a risk reduced more time-to-market oriented approach using *available* stuff like rd93 , no composites, reverse engg would have resulted in a desi bandar.

people may or may not have liked it - since it would be outmatched by the M2K-5 and F-16-block40+ when it entered IOC soon

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Jul 2010 13:35

a risk reduced more time-to-market oriented approach using *available* stuff like rd93 , no composites, reverse engg would have resulted in a desi bandar.

people may or may not have liked it - since it would be outmatched by the M2K-5 and F-16-block40+ when it entered IOC soon

And mind you. It is not as if the Chinese managed to put the Bandar out in service in a Jiffy. It has taken them too to put that into anything resembling service (I take all that Bandar inducted into service onree in 200X with dollops of salt).

If we had done a done a desi bandar, we could have probably put it in service in around 2005 or 6. The entry into service because of Full digital FBW and all the rest of it probably delayed the LCA entry into full service by 5 to 6 years.

Somehow I think the trade off is worth it. The next planes following from this will benefit massively from the engineering experience, database and off the shelf artefacts such as full FBW system , much of avionics (we have already seen that percolate to other platforms such as Jags, Mig 27 and soon 29 etc), composites and more importantly design experience.

For eg going UCAV or an MCA a supersonic trainer or even a relaxed stability passenger plane (all Airbus and Boeings as of today are such planes/ cargo carrier etc ) are doable from now.

As for Kaveri, think of it , we wanted to simply jump from zero to a cutting edge engine comparable to anything anywhere in the world in one massive jump (t:w ratio, FADEC, reliability etc), sure if it slips by a couple of years or even if it is so delayed it cannot see operational service, well worth it. After all the jump has been made!.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 18 Jul 2010 16:30

vina wrote:
a risk reduced more time-to-market oriented approach using *available* stuff like rd93 , no composites, reverse engg would have resulted in a desi bandar.

people may or may not have liked it - since it would be outmatched by the M2K-5 and F-16-block40+ when it entered IOC soon
And mind you. It is not as if the Chinese managed to put the Bandar out in service in a Jiffy. It has taken them too to put that into anything resembling service (I take all that Bandar inducted into service onree in 200X with dollops of salt).

If we had done a done a desi bandar, we could have probably put it in service in around 2005 or 6. The entry into service because of Full digital FBW and all the rest of it probably delayed the LCA entry into full service by 5 to 6 years.

Somehow I think the trade off is worth it. The next planes following from this will benefit massively from the engineering experience, database and off the shelf artefacts such as full FBW system , much of avionics (we have already seen that percolate to other platforms such as Jags, Mig 27 and soon 29 etc), composites and more importantly design experience.

For eg going UCAV or an MCA a supersonic trainer or even a relaxed stability passenger plane (all Airbus and Boeings as of today are such planes/ cargo carrier etc ) are doable from now.

As for Kaveri, think of it , we wanted to simply jump from zero to a cutting edge engine comparable to anything anywhere in the world in one massive jump (t:w ratio, FADEC, reliability etc), sure if it slips by a couple of years or even if it is so delayed it cannot see operational service, well worth it. After all the jump has been made!.

Completely agreed, but following protocols will not going to bear fruit, the important thing that we are truly lacking is nothing but Craziness and nationalism to see Airpower as a major component to achieve our strategic ends. So far, overall project management is equal to all other State funded Project which often get overlooked in terms of time and cost, but it doesn't raise eyebrows of anyone. We seems to be taking way to many care in overall flight saftey of this project and there is a complete lack of audicious intent to fast track the project even at the cost of some acceptable losses, I would like to cite the example of J-10 of china which it has meet some major accident but still they are hanging to it, if we had such accident then fingers were first raised to terminate this project.

Major Aviation Powers have always taken some calculated risks in order to fast track their project, but in our cases we only having hopes over hopes that some day we will manage to achieve ultimate milestone like our engine and radar or some other foriegn nation will come and lend their helping hand in our days of crisis. Engine and Avionics developments of Tejas are testimony to this fact. Just look at Chinese project of JF-17, whereby their launch customer inducted this Jet even without having complete IOC and FOC or weapon test to arrest their shrinking number. And here we are still looking to extend service life of our half dead Migs family.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2010 16:47

vina ji, truth is even the chinese know the real worth of JF-17 and have refused to order any so far. they might order a token dozen if lack of interest in country of origin becomes a hindrance to export but that will be it.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jul 2010 18:46

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-p ... 742311.jpg
Any ideas about the antenna array in turkish awacs

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jul 2010 19:19

vina wrote:<SNIP>So it is basically a "technology infused" Mig21 with better radar a more rudimentary FBW, areo lessons incorporated in the 70s from F-16 and a newer gen engine with better t:w ratio (the RD-93)<SNIP>

hmmm....now that Vina garu explains it, helps to put in context the conversation with a young IAF fighter jock - "JF-17 is more or less equal to our MiG-21Bison...". This abdul was too technically challenged to get further gyaan....but now, it makes sense.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Jul 2010 19:36

Well PAF too sees it as F-7 and Mirage-III/V replacement what is interesting is its avionics suite is of Chipanda make but if they do manage to get the RC400 radar along with MICA it won't be a pushover by any stretch of an imagination. What is interesting is we haven't heard anything on the lines of integrating Sidewinders,AMRAAMs and Raytheon's LGB kits with the bandar and that might be because of the Chinese angle but even that might change if French oblige on the avionics front.

We need to realize that unlike the expensive F-16 this is primarily to bridge the numbers gap between PAF and the IAF.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jul 2010 20:45

negi wrote:Well PAF too sees it as F-7 and Mirage-III/V replacement what is interesting is its avionics suite is of Chipanda make but if they do manage to get the RC400 radar along with MICA it won't be a pushover by any stretch of an imagination. What is interesting is we haven't heard anything on the lines of integrating Sidewinders,AMRAAMs and Raytheon's LGB kits with the bandar and that might be because of the Chinese angle but even that might change if French oblige on the avionics front.

JF 17 is in Farnborough for sales. It is a direct competitor to other nations hoping to sell aircraft. The more Russian or the Europeans contribute to making it a success the more serious the own goal they score.

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Jul 2010 21:32

shiv wrote:JF 17 is in Farnborough for sales. It is a direct competitor to other nations hoping to sell aircraft. The more Russian or the Europeans contribute to making it a success the more serious the own goal they score.

Spot on Shivji. Trust you to get right to the crux of the matter. Yes, it is not the Pakis who brought Bandar to Farnborough, but rather the Chinese! The Chinese are interested in selling this to make money (at the China Price of course, which is what will be attractive to "turd world" nations in Africa and other smaller countries in Latin America maybe) . Yeah, the only guys who would be a strategic fit are those that sell subsystems and not airframes themselves. The only persons of consequence doing that are the tauba tauba .. the Israelis!.

.

Now ,there is no way in hell that the Israelis are going to sell Litening pods and radars and A2A missiles and other stuff for the Bandar are they ?. Even the Russians now have woken up to the fact that an el'Cheapo Bandar could cut into the low end Mig 29 sales and are leaning on stopping RD-93 exports for Bandar.

The French dont have a low cost offering, Rafale probably too expensive for most guys who would look at Bandar. So the chances of the Italians and French making sales for Bandar do exist, but then they are do have the Rafale and Eurofighter to sell as well.. But they could export some subsystems. The South Africans could do as well maybe.

No question of Unkil allowing any Unkil sourced weapon such as Amraam etc to be integrated with a Chinese platform such as bandar and I doubt the Euros will allow that as well, given the Unkil-Eu "understanding" on weapons sales to China.

In fact, there is talk that Pakistan loaned a lone F-16 to China to China to help the chinese come up with the J-10. Now unkil has Unkil personnel directly on the ground with the new F-16s, monitoring everything going on and keeping an eye on the planes on a daily basis and everything locked in with "Blackwater" type folks guarding them!

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Jul 2010 22:05

Boss log the argument about competition and loosing market share is fine and dandy but then at the same time we know that the WS-13 and WS-10 are being developed with Russian assistance same is the case with their KLJ-7/10 radars (Phazotron) , the french did not hesitate to supply sights(SAGEM ?) for the Al-Khalid (probably since Cheena must have shown TSP as end user and bypassed the EU sanctions) and with European economy in shambles we cannot take things for granted.

The major handicap of F-16s is PAF cannot use them to carry their nuclear bomb or even their Babur/RA@nd but Cheena bandar will do that for them.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jul 2010 22:34

The estimated number of bandars to be inducted is 250 ...
jf17 will become operational if french radar and western avionics reaches pak,
may be chinese are out there to sell all other things like airframe ,engine ,without western stuff to those countries who would like to customze it

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jul 2010 22:57

As per the internet chatter picked up from the unmentionable forum, there is cash crunch with respect to sourcing the 2nd line of Bandars. It seems that taller than mountain freinds has not shown keenness to subsidize the 2nd sale......so much for 25 JF-17..phew

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2010 23:11

samay, who will pay for it ? the IMF ? even PAF does not speak of more than 150 jf17's

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jul 2010 23:54

I was quoting the planned nos,
it doesnt matters if they have cash for it or not, someone keeps giving them something to fight with neighbours .
My point is JF17 could still be useful for some countries , needless to say ,pakis want to generate cash from there .

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 19 Jul 2010 00:07

Live Coverage: Farnborough Airshow - http://live.reuters.com/Event/Farnborough_Airshow

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 19 Jul 2010 00:16

The K-8 medium trainer from the chinese and pakis sales over 250+ pieces to around a dozen of countries. Probably generated decent return to them.

while the jf17 doesn't look very competent, but who knows if the price is dirt cheap ???

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2010 00:50

Samay wrote:I was quoting the planned nos,
it doesnt matters if they have cash for it or not, someone keeps giving them something to fight with neighbours .
My point is JF17 could still be useful for some countries , needless to say ,pakis want to generate cash from there .

how would they get cash ? they don't own anything on the design.
just because it says sino-pak does not mean there is anything paki in it, other than the pilot. right now their job seems to be that of a salesman for jf17 since PLAAF does not fly it, in return they will probably get a bonus.

before I forget, planned number for whom, the only AF which plans to get it is PAF and they talk of 150, not 250. has that changed ? do you have a source ?

naird · Post by **naird** » 19 Jul 2010 02:11

Rahul M wrote:
Samay wrote:I was quoting the planned nos,
it doesnt matters if they have cash for it or not, someone keeps giving them something to fight with neighbours .
My point is JF17 could still be useful for some countries , needless to say ,pakis want to generate cash from there .
how would they get cash ? they don't own anything on the design.
just because it says sino-pak does not mean there is anything paki in it, other than the pilot. right now their job seems to be that of a salesman for jf17 since PLAAF does not fly it, in return they will probably get a bonus.

before I forget, planned number for whom, the only AF which plans to get it is PAF and they talk of 150, not 250. has that changed ? do you have a source ?

Rahul Sir -- Been on some pakistani defence forums. As per the members over there -- the only input Paki's had was to give chinese aethetic and capability inputs visa vi western fighters (F16). Chinese in turn were thankful for this insight and modified plane according to PAF's inputs. Also as per the members Pakistani's have also financed this project(i dont know the ratio)...so if they do manage the sell the planes they would take some profits out of the sales revenue -- also the production factory at kamra will also be occupied. These views are shared by some PAF members on forum boards and not keyboard cammandos, so maybe there is some truth in them.

Pakistani's has a lot to gain from this project regardless of their contribution -- if the deal with turkey goes through then it will be a definite stepping stone for them.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 19 Jul 2010 03:18

Pakistani's has a lot to gain from this project regardless of their contribution -- if the deal with turkey goes through then it will be a definite stepping stone for them.

Are the Turks buying the Bandar

These views are shared by some PAF members on forum boards and not keyboard cammandos, so maybe there is some truth in them.

Every other Pawki on the internet claims to be a PeeYaFF pilot and a direct descendant of PBUH, it is a crime to use the words truth and Pawki in the same sentence.

Fighter planes are not pirated DVDs, countries will think a hundred times before going in for an el -cheapo, copy pasted, unproven fighter with a questionable safety record. The only way the Chinese can push for the export of Bandar is through soft loans extended to despotic regimes in Africa.

Like I said before, wait for the nuts and bolts made in Pawkistan to loosen and make the Bandar fall apart mid air, that's when even the Fizzleya will ground the Bandar.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Jul 2010 06:08

shiv wrote:
Mahendra wrote:Why are people merrily jumping around to give credit to the Pakbarians for painting their baksheesh green and then displaying it around the world.
Reverse self flagellation.
Two ways you can prove you are bullshit:
1) Put the other guy higher
2) Put yourself lower

A variant of "khud ko jai karein"

Points well brought out.... I think the credit should be going to the marketing deparment of the Chinese Manufacturer for doing this so bloody well. The Pakis are out there selling this as a shining example of 50/50 partnership and fast praced prototyping to production model. If I was there I would be clapping at the Aircraft demo and capabilities and my head would be in the direction of the Chinese.

Take solace in the fact that we will master the basics and the complicated facets of manufacturing an aircraft after LCA and Naval LCA are inducted and the next time around the products coming out will be fasters and better.

JF-17 is often touted as the Pakistani LCA or Indian LCA equivalent by the Pakis and we should understand why they are doing. They don't have a freckin clue about building a 4th gen fighter from scratch. So the public must be misled about the true nature of development and production and it looks like we have picked up some of that propaganda as well. If you want to understand how well they do it , ask a Paki about their space programme... apparently NASA is asking Pakis to help them go to moon.

If the JF-17 is Pakistani then rejoice at the face that the Mig-29 is Indian, cause we overhaul, change engines, install launch rails, wipe windscreen, check tire pressure and change the oil just as well as the Pakis do on their JF-17.

However ... still kudos to the Chinese and Pakis for fast tracking this programme, who knows some country might even order a squadron or two and this will be an advantage for India, it will fast track anything to do with our LCA because the Paki LCA is flying in UK !! <Sarcasm>

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2010 07:18

Other than the connection between LCA and JF 17 invented by Pakis and imported to BRF, there is no connection between the two.

There is no question of export of LCA to anyone until Indian induction and development are complete. Nobody takes aircraft to an airshow for the heck of it. Some tangible returns have to be expected.

The LCA is designed as an Indian program to develop Indian capabilities in high technology while meeting Indian requirements. The JF 17 was a Pakistani request to the Chinese to meet Pakistani costs and requirements using existing Chinese technology.

I would be grateful for any information on weights, performance, range and payload specs of the JF 17 from a Farnborough signboard. The bluffing on such a signboard is likely to be less extreme than on the internet.

naird · Post by **naird** » 19 Jul 2010 07:26

Mahendra wrote:
Are the Turks buying the Bandar

Turks are definetly interested in JF17. Turkish head honchos recently made a statement to that effect i believe. Right now Turkey is waiting for some time for the platform to mature. Heck for 17-20 million a pop if you get a BVR capable aircraft then many countries might be interested.

Every other Pawki on the internet claims to be a PeeYaFF pilot and a direct descendant of PBUH, it is a crime to use the words truth and Pawki in the same sentence.

Nope i am not talking about every tom dick and harry whos playing ace combat games. No there are only a couple of veteran PAF pilots -- who has had 71 war experience ...and this is their statement. They normally dont BS -- and are staright to the point much to the dismay of paki fanboys.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2010 07:51

naird, no need for sir.

PAF contribution even in 'aesthetics' etc was providing chengdu with height info of their pilots since TFTA paki pilots could not get into cockpits made for chinese pilots.

other than that they are also believed to have supplied china with one f-16 that is supposedly listed as crashed.

regarding turkey being interested in jf-17, it's a country that makes F-16's (including a batch for pakistan) and is a partner in the F-35 project. I'll eat my hat, figuratively speaking, if turkey buys jf17's for its AF. it's possible however that they want to join the project to market it jointly and thereby get some production orders.

{speculation }
this might mean that china is too busy to build an AF for itself to build the jf17 and since pakistan is clearly incapable of producing the jf17 entirely on its own, turkey with its relatively mature aerospace industry might be asked to fill the place.
{/speculation }

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2010 08:00

On the topic of "Turkey interested in JF 17" - please remember today's date (18 July 2010). Very often this sort of "news" is bullsh1t. We end up giving the JF 17 mental points and we would have forgotten about it 5 years from now when Turkey still has not bought the JF 17.

Please come back and make me eat my words 5 years from now if I am wrong.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 19 Jul 2010 16:18

International Public Debut of Gripen NG Demonstrator

http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations ... trator.htm

The fighter will be arriving in Farnborough on Monday, 19 July and will be on static display until Friday 23 July.

Gripen NG Demonstrator is a flying platform for the development of new technologies and features incorporated into the Gripen NG – the next generation fighter with significantly increased combat range and endurance, increased payload and super-cruise capability

Eagerly waiting for pics...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jul 2010 17:17

Thunder Ka Splendor

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Jul 2010 17:54

Eurofighter Typhoon to display agile multi-role capability at Farnborough International

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2010 18:09

Austin wrote:Thunder Ka Splendor

That seems to one of the earlier versions of Bandar...look at the LERX and lack of bulge beneath the tail section

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Jul 2010 18:14

Yeah it has splitter plates for channeling out boundary layer flow.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Jul 2010 18:27

India, Pakistan showcase aviation wares at Farnborough airshow

LM-HAL partnership on F-16 displayed at air show..

A specialist defence news website, globalnews.net, has said that American giant Lockheed Martin is likely to display an aerial refueling device at the airshow, which was co-developed with HAL for the F-16 fighter aircraft. 'This makes it the first time an Indian company was involved in a high-technology sub-system development of the F-16 fighter aircraft,' it said in a recent report.

Lockheed Martin's intention to display the device at Farnborough 'was to show the high tech capabilities of its Indian partner and expose the world market for F-16 aircraft to the possibility of buying F-16 sub-systems from India', the website said.'With over 500 F-16 fighters in service with 22 countries, the Indian probe-and-drogue refueling system could find a wide market provided it was tested and certified by the military aviation authorities in the buyer countries.'

The F-16 is one of the six jets in contention for an Indian Air Force order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft in a deal valued at $10 billion.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 19 Jul 2010 19:01

On the official site the JF-17's are listed under CATIC. So its the equivalent of LM displaying the UAE F-16s I would think.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2010 19:23

Austin wrote:Thunder Ka Splendor

One more difference between this and the Farnborough model - Check the vertical strakes on the top of the mainwing.

So we have - in the last 4-5 years JF-17/FC-1 models that have

1) A smaller LERX (bigger now)
2) Intakes with intake splitter plates (fixed geometry now)
3) Strakes on mainwing (absent now)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jul 2010 19:29

They probably tried more than one concept or experimented with different prototypes before finalising an optimum design , with paki money the chinese took some liberty

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2010 20:52

Austin wrote:They probably tried more than one concept or experimented with different prototypes before finalising an optimum design , with paki money the chinese took some liberty

The current intakes mimic what I have read about Mirage III intakes (and Mirage 2000) -i.e the simplest classic supersonic intake. I have no idea about the relative merits of such a classic shape versus something with splitter plates or some mechanical moving part that changes with airflow. Obviously everything is a compromise of sorts and I wonder what compromises the Chinese made.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 19 Jul 2010 21:11

just compare it with original IAR 95(romania)

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Jul 2010 21:20

Boss from what I know boundary layer problem arises only for AC where engine nacelle is near the fuselage (dorsal or side mounted) the Mig-21, Su-7 or even SR-71 did not encounter such issues as intake was not adjacent to fuselage and hence there was no need for splitter plates, that apart all these AC along with Mirage series (these had splitter plates) are Mach 2+ capable designs hence the need for variable geometry intakes (in above case they use shock cones for boxy side mounted intakes they have ramp doors). Bandar and JSF both as per specs are not Mach2 capable designs so they do not require variable geometry intakes , the bump is essentially to prevent the boundary layer from entering the intake .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jul 2010 21:26

shiv wrote:The current intakes mimic what I have read about Mirage III intakes (and Mirage 2000) -i.e the simplest classic supersonic intake. I have no idea about the relative merits of such a classic shape versus something with splitter plates or some mechanical moving part that changes with airflow. Obviously everything is a compromise of sorts and I wonder what compromises the Chinese made.

Seems I got my answer for bumps One thing is certain the Chinese have experimented many prototypes and its certainly an aircraft with many ideas proof tested on real prototypes.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 19 Jul 2010 23:42

Austin wrote:
Seems I got my answer for bumps One thing is certain the Chinese have experimented many prototypes and its certainly an aircraft with many ideas proof tested on real prototypes.

Or

Their computer simulation capability is still sub-par and they had to make many design changes AFTER their test flight program starts. Risky in its own way

btw for those who are

because Tejas is too busy trying to meet a year-end deadline (instead of doing burlesque for the gora): If Farnborough is a "Steampunk festival", JF-17 would be really cool.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 20 Jul 2010 00:48

More JF-17 pics from GlobalAviationResource :--
http://www.globalaviationresource.com/b ... 100718.php

Boeing 787 in Farnborough :--
http://www.globalaviationresource.com/b ... 100718.php

Small Youtube Video of aircraft practising :-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSSqq8vk ... re=related