Bharat Rakshak

chetak wrote:Smuggling becomes an offence when undeclared goods cross some international border.

chetak, let's be clear. There is absolutely no way that we can give direct relief to victims in KP, Balochistan & Sindh, the subject matter of this thread. We have to explore the next best options only.

Of course, I know smuggling is an offence. I also know that almost all of what intelligence agencies do are illegal and offensive too. What are they there for ?

RajeshA wrote:Where we can give them the 1000 cuts is in their misplaced sense of superiority, we can pour oil to their fires of jealousy, we can further tear down their self-respect. Giving aid is turning the blade.

The above is however a secondary reason. The primary reason however should really be to support centrifugal forces in Pakistan.

I have always believed that we should do everything within our power to overwhelm Pakistan in the shortest possible time without unduly risking ourselves. No opportunity must be lost to drive home certain messages to Pakistanis. We must hasten the natural processes within the Land of the Purest. Some can be overt, some can be covert; but, they all must be done.

derkonig wrote:Giving aid is not turning the blade, it will be interpreted as jaziya.

Nobody posting in this thread, feels even in the slightest bit that aid money should go to Pakjab. I could understand that the Pakjabis would feel that way, as you put it. They send their lashkars to India and India sends money and supplies to them. That would be construed as jizya (Sorry Jaziya reminds of Jadzia Dax of DS9 fame)!

This thread is about helping the periphery of Pakistan - Balochistan, Sindh, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, Gilgit-Baltistan to distance themselves from the core of Pakistan - Pakjab. This way we are telling them, that "your current master - Pakjab, cannot care for you, so divorce Pakjab; go your own independent way!"

How about a military incursion into Pakjab at this juncture? It would send the loudest possible message to papis & the 3.5 if the minar-e-puke & GHQ is dynamited on live TV

Why not construct a wall from Gwader to Rajasthan and making sure that not a drop of this flood water leaves the land of Pure. At least Pak Army wont have to declare Jeehad on India due to lack of Water.
Later a similar wall could be constructed along Durand line and redcliff line. We can pay for such a permanent wall.

SSridhar wrote:

chetak wrote:Smuggling becomes an offence when undeclared goods cross some international border.

chetak, let's be clear. There is absolutely no way that we can give direct relief to victims in KP, Balochistan & Sindh, the subject matter of this thread. We have to explore the next best options only.

Of course, I know smuggling is an offence. I also know that almost all of what intelligence agencies do are illegal and offensive too. What are they there for ?

SSridhar saar,

" The smugglers will be paid by Indian agencies with strict instructions to distribute the goods free, lest they be caught for smuggling and punished."

This is the part that I do not understand.

How will this help?

chetak wrote:

SSridhar wrote:"The smugglers will be paid by Indian agencies with strict instructions to distribute the goods free, lest they be caught for smuggling and punished.

"

This is the part that I do not understand.

How will this help?

I'll give it a try. A smuggler can get caught

• while he is smuggling his goods into the country,
• while he is in possession of the goods, or
• when he is disposing of those goods.

If he is disposing those goods by selling them, some official in Pakistan can question him, whether he has a permit to sell, and where he has purchased the goods. If the 'smuggler' is simply gifting the goods away to the needy flood victims, nobody will question his intentions or where he got the goods from. Even if there is some query out of interest, he can lie.

The chances of him getting caught, with the consequence that he spills the beans about his India connection diminish.

It is just a try, not an air-tight case.

RajeshA wrote:
I'll give it a try. A smuggler can get caught

• while he is smuggling his goods into the country,
• while he is in possession of the goods, or
• when he is disposing of those goods.

If he is disposing those goods by selling them, some official in Pakistan can question him, whether he has a permit to sell, and where he has purchased the goods. If the 'smuggler' is simply gifting the goods away to the needy flood victims, nobody will question his intentions or where he got the goods from. Even if there is some query out of interest, he can lie.

The chances of him getting caught, with the consequence that he spills the beans about his India connection diminish.

It is just a try, not an air-tight case.

wokay saar, I get it now.

Good Idea.

Besides, there is always 'plausible deniability'. Why should it be the domain of TSP alone ?

All aid should have an Indian flag firmly stamped on it, and should say something like "India-Baloch Friendship Trust" etc etc.

Till now, we have heard of Jamaat-ud Dawa's 'humanitarian' wing "Falah-e-Insaniat Foundation" being very active in giving aid to the flood victims.

They get funding from the Punjab Govt. officially through the budget. Saudi Arabia is also probably sending their flood relief through this agency. So all in all there seems to be a very active support for FIF from the state as well as its Islamist friends. They also have charity collection boxes throughout Pakjab. JuD are Sarkari Jihadis.

So JuD are actively helping the people in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, while the TTP does not have the resources. Is Pakistan trying to bring in the disenchanted Pushtuns again into its fold by using the FIF for relief distribution.

That is why I was saying India should have distributed the relief supplies worth the 5 million USD through its Jalalabad Consulate to all sorts of tribal chiefs and Taliban (TTP), through groups that are inimical to Pakistan.

RajeshA wrote:
If he is disposing those goods by selling them, some official in Pakistan can question him, whether he has a permit to sell, and where he has purchased the goods. If the 'smuggler' is simply gifting the goods away to the needy flood victims, nobody will question his intentions or where he got the goods from. Even if there is some query out of interest, he can lie.

The chances of him getting caught, with the consequence that he spills the beans about his India connection diminish.

It is just a try, not an air-tight case.

If the baki official finds that the goods distributed are from sdres, then all hell will break loose.
1) Any labels identifying from India will be suspect including the persons involved.
2) If the goods do not have sdre labels it defeats the purpose.
3) If the goods do not have the labels but abduls are informed that sdre is supplying it, they make or may not believe it.
What is the guarantee that sdres will not be lynched at the instigation of some mullah(similar to sialkot lynching).

risks are high and do not diminish.
JMT.

krisna wrote:If the baki official finds that the goods distributed are from sdres, then all hell will break loose.
1) Any labels identifying from India will be suspect including the persons involved.
2) If the goods do not have sdre labels it defeats the purpose.
3) If the goods do not have the labels but abduls are informed that sdre is supplying it, they make or may not believe it.
What is the guarantee that sdres will not be lynched at the instigation of some mullah(similar to sialkot lynching).

risks are high and do not diminish.
JMT.

Assumption: The Goods have India Labels!

Normally when one is selling goods, the police could want a portion of the profits. So the additional interest. When the goods are being distributed free of charge, there is no money to be made, so less interest.

If an overly patriotic thulla may insist, that SDRE goods are not to be distributed, the smuggler/aid worker can claim that the goods came through official channels. Pakistan has already agreed to receive aid. If there is further inquiry, he can produce some false paper. In a country where MNAs are elected with fake degrees, forging some paper, cannot be that difficult. If further inquiry, then Robin Hood can say that the goods were indeed imported, as all these goods are on the positive list. If thulla has nothing better to do in life, and persists on his inquiry, then Robin Hood just tells people, that the first to hang the thulla upside down, would get an extra thella of wheat, plus a jar of desi ghee. Thulla swings in the air, and vulture population is also saved.

Can India setup refugee camps inside Indian territory? I know it is such an evil thought, but.....no pain no gain. Set few refugee camps across borders where we could have good control. Then let the news out; send it to AP, Reuters ityadi. Send the message through radio and TV; few thousands (or millions) people will make a run to these camps. Once we have the camps full we can stop accepting new "immigrants". Announce it again that we are full. Create the best living conditions, portray it in the media. If we can have BD and SL refugees, why not from Pakistan. A few are bound to escape these camps and wander into the hearts of India. So evil people are bound to enter this route. The exodus from Pakistan would make a news, no? What is the Cost Benefit Analysis for this scenario?

SwamyG ji,

you're talking the unspeakable!!!

"No refugees from Pakistan" should remain a very hard policy! You allow it once, it will be difficult to overturn it. Politicians smell votes, they turn a one-time exception into an accepted aberration for the future.

In India it is only the first time, when a policy is made, that it is questioned. Subsequently people get used it, and politicians and WKKs can milk that. Nobody wants to stand in front of a tide and overturn a policy.

Nothing in the world could be that attractive, that we should consider taking in Pakistani refugees. So SwamiG ji, please perish the thought!

I am not asking to take the entire 180 million, just a few thousand to get the necessary psy-ops & long term benefits.

SwamyG wrote:I am not asking to take the entire 180 million, just a few thousand to get the necessary psy-ops & long term benefits.

Of course not! But it is a question of precedents. Once a precedent has been established, there will be innumerable repeats of it.

One thing, one thing one could do is for the Indian Govt. to announce that it is offering a subsidy on relief goods for all international relief organizations.

For every dollar spent on procuring relief supplies in India, India is willing to spend 25 cents. Secondly India is willing to open Wagah and other border crossings for the delivery of the purchased relief supplies. Within Indian territory, India is willing to transport all supplies all the way to the border free of charge, from where the International Relief Agencies can take over and supply the goods either to the Pakistani Government or put up their own distribution system. Supplying goods from India would be much easier and cost-effective. No need to get the goods from elsewhere in the world.

If necessary, India is willing to rent some helicopters as well, for surveying, delivering, etc.

All goods would be having the "Made in India" Label.

That way India gets to make profit on all the money collected for Pakistani Aid, and Pakistan gets the relief supplies as they should.

Rajiv Shah should look at this option, and promote it further to the various aid agencies. Europeans too should look at it.

RajeshA wrote:

SwamyG wrote:I am not asking to take the entire 180 million, just a few thousand to get the necessary psy-ops & long term benefits.

Of course not! But it is a question of precedents. Once a precedent has been established, there will be innumerable repeats of it.

What is the worst thing that could happen?

Here is a radical idea:

In May 1997 an Indian Air Force MiG-25RB was detected flying faster than Mach 2 at least 65,000 ft,over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled, but could not match the MIG-25 ceiling. India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad.[29] The MiG-25 was an important strategic asset to India until the advent of reconnaissance satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25

RajeshA wrote:

SwamyG wrote:I am not asking to take the entire 180 million, just a few thousand to get the necessary psy-ops & long term benefits.

Of course not! But it is a question of precedents. Once a precedent has been established, there will be innumerable repeats of it.

SwamyG wrote: What is the worst thing that could happen?

It seems this flood aftermath condition would not last longer than 3-4 months, at least its acute aspect. If India sets up refugee camps this time around, some refugees would stay for a few months, others may disappear into the Indian population ocean. WKK would of course greet those refugees at the border, do some photo ops with them, and show their presence in the Indian media.

Next time something happens in Pakistan, WKKs would cite the precedence of 2010, and demand that India implements its "tradition" of giving refuge to people in distress. That time there will be far less resistance amongst the nationalist Indians for the idea - due to tradition, one managed to live through the last refugee crisis and one would live through this one as well, etc. So India would go ahead and provide sanctuary again.

May be next time, the crisis gets compounded by broken infrastructure in Pakistan, or chaos, or whatever. The tide of refugees would go on increasing, and India would find it very difficult to stop the tide. In the meantime, the refugees already here would have established a beach head, provided their services as muscle and vote bank to some politicians, and it would prove still more difficult for India to close the doors.

We don't want that.

Getting a few pats on the back this time around for helping Pakistanis is not worth the trouble.

JMTs

RajeshA wrote:One thing, one thing one could do is for the Indian Govt. to announce that it is offering a subsidy on relief goods for all international relief organizations.

For every dollar spent on procuring relief supplies in India, India is willing to spend 25 cents. Secondly India is willing to open Wagah and other border crossings for the delivery of the purchased relief supplies. Within Indian territory, India is willing to transport all supplies all the way to the border free of charge, from where the International Relief Agencies can take over and supply the goods either to the Pakistani Government or put up their own distribution system. Supplying goods from India would be much easier and cost-effective. No need to get the goods from elsewhere in the world.

If necessary, India is willing to rent some helicopters as well, for surveying, delivering, etc.

All goods would be having the "Made in India" Label.

That way India gets to make profit on all the money collected for Pakistani Aid, and Pakistan gets the relief supplies as they should.

Rajiv Shah should look at this option, and promote it further to the various aid agencies. Europeans too should look at it.

Some facts about the pakis.

They don't want any flood aid articles that says made in India, period.

They don't want Indian pilots flying over their territory,
or even Indian aid workers operating in their country.

They don't want their public to know that any of the aid comes from India.

If there is any sympathy at all for the affected paki abduls
it is better not to propose such unworkable solutions.

chetak wrote:Some facts about the pakis.

They don't want any flood aid articles that says made in India, period.

They don't want Indian pilots flying over their territory,
or even Indian aid workers operating in their country.

They don't want their public to know that any of the aid comes from India.

If there is any sympathy at all for the affected paki abduls
it is better not to propose such unworkable solutions.

chetak ji,
Poor Pakistanis don't know, what is good for them. If WKKs like me don't speak up, they'll all commit mass suicide. Tauba, Tauba! I can't take all the suffering in the reportage out of Pakistan.

India must force ghee into their mouths!

SwamyG wrote:Can India setup refugee camps inside Indian territory? I know it is such an evil thought, but.....no pain no gain. Set few refugee camps across borders where we could have good control. Then let the news out; send it to AP, Reuters ityadi. Send the message through radio and TV; few thousands (or millions) people will make a run to these camps. Once we have the camps full we can stop accepting new "immigrants". Announce it again that we are full. Create the best living conditions, portray it in the media. If we can have BD and SL refugees, why not from Pakistan. A few are bound to escape these camps and wander into the hearts of India. So evil people are bound to enter this route. The exodus from Pakistan would make a news, no? What is the Cost Benefit Analysis for this scenario?

What makes you think that many such refugees have not already crossed over?

With a porous border, many enterprising abduls would have already hot footed it over the fence to where the grass is actually greener.

RajeshA wrote:

chetak wrote:Some facts about the pakis.

They don't want any flood aid articles that says made in India, period.

They don't want Indian pilots flying over their territory,
or even Indian aid workers operating in their country.

They don't want their public to know that any of the aid comes from India.

If there is any sympathy at all for the affected paki abduls
it is better not to propose such unworkable solutions.

chetak ji,
Poor Pakistanis don't know, what is good for them. If WKKs like me don't speak up, they'll all commit mass suicide. Tauba, Tauba! I can't take all the suffering in the reportage out of Pakistan.

India must force ghee into their mouths!

RajeshA ji,

Let us save the ghee for leh.

Let us leave the mass suicide option to the abduls, after all they are also a democracy, no?

chetak wrote: What makes you think that many such refugees have not already crossed over?

With a porous border, many enterprising abduls would have already hot footed it over the fence to where the grass is actually greener.

Where did say anything about people crossing or not crossing, eh? My ideas was to use this opportunity to do an image build exercise (and some psy-ops).

Rajesh: I don't find your explanation convincing enough. Yes it will be a precedence. But if we repeatedly do this, then the very fact that Pakistan is not able to manage itself will become evident to its citizens and the World, no?

SwamyG wrote:

chetak wrote: What makes you think that many such refugees have not already crossed over?

With a porous border, many enterprising abduls would have already hot footed it over the fence to where the grass is actually greener.

Where did say anything about people crossing or not crossing, eh? My ideas was to use this opportunity to do an image build exercise (and some psy-ops).

Dont forget what a mess paikhastan is after they let the afghan refugees in. One of our biggest goals at the time is also to raise our national performances such as GDP per capita, Human Development Index, Religious tolerance, employment ratio, literacy rate. Getting in the good for nothing, illiterate, radicalised, poor abduls makes me see all statistics going down again. I think this idea should be made to rest right here. EDIT: No offence to the wisdom of SwamyG though.

On the contrary, it brings me to another idea:-- Now that kashmir autonomy is being discussed (where the people have more power to choose their fate), why not allow people form the affected azad kashmir, khyber pakhtunwa and gilgit baltistan be allowed some refuge camps in our kashmir. I am sure their indian kashmiri bretheren who have been fighting so hard for azadi wudnt mind their impoverished birathars to take refuge here.

>>>Getting in the good for nothing, illiterate, radicalised, poor abduls makes me see all statistics going down again
Statistics are just numbers, what really matters is the living conditions of humans. Anyway my idea was not to invite the entire Pakistan into India, was it? Float the idea, give it media coverage and setup few camps; isn't it going to be an H&D blow to Pakistan? Would they even accept it? Would they stop the fleeing citizens or send in few aathankvaadis too?

This is time to pay media bosses in Pakistan & start a propaganda war. Let the poor abdul know how the rich in Pakjab are gorging on tandoori chicken & beef kebabs, how the army diverted the waters to save the rich & their land and how they are pocketing all the $ aid. That's the only way to help those Paki *******. And while doing this release more water.

SwamyG wrote: Rajesh: I don't find your explanation convincing enough. Yes it will be a precedence. But if we repeatedly do this, then the very fact that Pakistan is not able to manage itself will become evident to its citizens and the World, no?

Fair enough SwamyG ji.

From Bangladesh, we have had so many refugees, but nobody is questioning Bangladesh's stability. Refugees from all over Indian Subcontinent reach the shores of Europe, USA, Canada, etc. and what has all that changed? Nothing.

It is okay to get some media mileage out of some situations, but not at the cost of shooting us in the foot!

Now now now....you are doing an equal equal of Pakistan and Bangladesh I do not see how we are shooting ourselves on the foot. A great benefit would be to test how well equipped we ourselves are right? A camp with a few thousand will teach our emergency workers and health, social scientists and ityadi folks several things. We could impregnate (no pun intended) ideas into those refugees about pluralism, democracy and use it as psy-ops no? The next time we get hit by a cyclone or earthquake, we could transfer knowledge and experiences from such camps.

Maybe we could set the camps in such a way that Balochs or Sindhis would find easier to get into. It will be tough no doubt, I am not saying or implying it will be hunky dory, all I am doing is throwing an idea into the pot And imagine the publicity.

SwamyG no one in today's world would encourage a refugee situation at least not just for psyop or H&D value the long term issues that might surface due to the influx of people is certainly not something an over populated and ill administered country like ours can deal with, just look at the folks from BD who took refuge in NE, today it has become a headache for the local administration.

SwamyG wrote:A camp with a few thousand will teach our emergency workers and health, social scientists and ityadi folks several things.

As such we are a poor country and also a big country, and in some corner or the other there is always some natural calamity. There is no paucity of opportunities for emergency workers to learn the basics.

SwamyG wrote:We could impregnate (no pun intended) ideas into those refugees about pluralism, democracy? The next time we get hit by a cyclone or earthquake, we could transfer knowledge and experiences from such camps.

Your trust in our ability to teach life-long brainwashed mango abduls pluralism and democracy is commendable. I lack that trust and also the ability to see its need. If at all, Pakistanis are to learn something from India, they should get some tips from Naxalites, and use their methods in Pakistan.

SwamyG wrote:and use it as psy-ops no

As for psy-ops, what is supposed to be the intended audience?

SwamyG wrote:Maybe we could set the camps in such a way that Balochs or Sindhis would find easier to get into. It will be tough no doubt, I am not saying or implying it will be hunky dory, all I am doing is throwing an idea into the pot And imagine the publicity.

Saar, your ideas are welcome irrespective of whether I agree with them or not.

RajeshA wrote: India must force ghee into their mouths!

Onlee if the ghee is later used to cremate Pakistaniyet, will I support you.

Pratyush wrote:

RajeshA wrote: India must force ghee into their mouths!

Onlee if the ghee is later used to cremate Pakistaniyet, will I support you.

All suggestions here are for cremation onlee!

X-post...

krisna wrote:Flood-hit Pakistanis Balochis, Afghans may cross to Iran-UNHCR

Dismal conditions in flood-hit areas in southwest Pakistan(baluchistan) could force thousands of Pakistanis and Afghan refugees to cross the border into Iran, the U.N. refugee agency warned on Thursday.

Baluchistan province was the first to be hit by the country's worst floods,(wasn't it north west pakistan ) initially displaced some 200,000 people. But the region has been largely ignored after more menacing waters raged in other parts of Pakistan.
Separatist nationalist militants have waged a low-scale insurgency for decades in Baluchistan, Pakistan's biggest but poorest province.

The number of displaced people there is close to one million, and lack of assistance could make them head to neighbouring Iran, said Mengesha Kebede, the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) representative in Pakistan.
"This has not happened yet ... but definitely everybody is aware of significant movement that is taking place," Kebede said, adding contingency plans there were underway.

Starting over a month ago, floods have killed at least 1,600 people, affected more than 18 million and inflicted nearly $43 billion worth of damage to infrastructure and agriculture, the mainstay of the economy.

madrassa maths on display.

Hundreds of people have been killed in assassinations and bomb attacks in Baluchistan in recent years but there has been a relative lull in the thinly populated province of mountains and deserts in recent months.
Kebede called for scaled up relief activity in Baluchistan to prevent a major humanitarian disaster there.
"I feel it would be tragic if because of the lack of assistance, Pakistanis, Afghan refugees were to cross the border, seeking help and assistance in Iran," he said. "We need to ensure that Baluchistan is not forgotten."

hope something is done for balochis and help them form a separate nation.

Looks like the thread was timely.

Originally Posted by SSridhar
X-Post from TSP Thread

When the levee breaks

The lack of a strong government response to a national disaster has allowed banned Islamist groups to fill in the vacuum, who are seen flaunting their flags at different camps. This could resonate with desperate people living on the edge and draw them closer to the militants.

A militant-plagued Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is now a psychological and emotional testing ground for both the local militants and American forces, each trying to carve out niches in the hearts and minds of people. While the Americans are seen as only trying to improve their image, the militants are sharpening potential recruits for future militant attacks.

This month the world finally woke up to the devastation and Indian aid worth $5 million was accepted by Pakistan. But this still needs to be stepped up. India is strategically the only country that can really help Pakistan, as it is in its interest to have a stable Pakistan that is free from terrorism, allowing good relations and a platform to resolve long standing issues. {One does not understand how India's help will help Pakistan rid itself of terrorism. Are bad relations because of no help from India ? What an argument !}

Pakistanis can make use of low-priced and quality Indian commodities, eliminating the need to import low grade Chinese and costly European products.

It may seem like a distant dream, but if 80 per cent of the trucks in Pakistan run on smuggled Indian tyres, then a peaceful Indo-Pak synergy will be beneficial for both. Fuel starved Pakistanis wouldn't mind Indian Oil!

This disaster can either strengthen or severely weaken Pakistan's fragile civilian government, also making Pakistanis even more sceptical or hostile, as 20 million survival stories resurface. No one can predict anything, as the only thing obvious is that nothing good will happen to Pakistan and the war against terrorism — unless global aid comes to salvage the sunken state of Pakistan.{And then what ? It will sink again. It will continue to sponsor terrorism against India, Afghanistan and the rest of the world. So, why not let it sink this time ?}