CWG 2010 - Corruption Saga

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Oct 2010 22:07

I knew you would say that.

But that is what is floated around so it sticks whether true or not. But no harm in indulging while trying to get approximate estimates for the rest of the big ticket ones and see if they come close or more.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Oct 2010 00:25

Quoting official figures for renovation of various stadia, he said that for the Indira Gandhi stadium the amount stood at `669 crore and for the shooting range at `149 crore. On the other hand, the Lal Bahadur stadium in Hyderabad was modernised for `80 crore and the state-of-art stadium in Nagpur was built at `84 crore. “Building a new stadium cost just ` 80 crore and renovating the Jawaharlal Nehru stadium `961 crore,” Mr Yechury said. The renovation of all stadia cost `4459. 48 crore, he said.

CWG scam: New stadium costs Rs 84 cr, JLN renovation Rs 961 cr!

That is way below my WAG of $15,000 crores for the stadia.

So total of 40,000 crores accounted for so far. (airport, metro, village, stadia and athlete training). The hard one will be the road infra costs now done specifically for this period and event.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 20 Oct 2010 00:42

Ahh Finally,I was trying to get hold of this Express Column by Shekhar Gupta. Its a couple of months old article:
Temporary insanity

the total amount would indeed come close to Rs 40,000 crore. But how is it broken up? Rs 16,887 crore is for phase II of the Metro. Rs 1,800 crore is for the new buses for the DTC and Rs 400 crore for the construction of new bus depots. Rs 12,000 crore is for the new power plants. Another Rs 4,000 crore go into other crucial infrastructure upgrades in Delhi, almost all inevitable, including the sewage and drainage systems under the new, expanded airport. Frankly, 85 per cent of all expense incurred has nothing to do with the CWG and is going into entirely virtuous development (though there is the odd gem like Rs 30 crore for potted plants). The Games, if anything, have become a wonderful antidote to the usual delays and corruption. A look at the list of expenses will tell you that almost everything has been completed way below the budgeted figure. Do such things happen in India, except with the Delhi Metro? They usually don’t, because there are long delays and cost overruns. The CWG deadline has prevented any delays beyond a month or two (the only disgrace being the NDMC with its relatively minor projects, like the Connaught Place upgrade). Of the Rs 4,459 crore sanctioned directly for the CWG, Rs 2,904 crore is being spent directly by the ministry of sports, mostly on stadium upgrade. And whatever else you may say about M.S. Gill, nobody would ever say that he stole a paisa, or let anybody steal, under his watch. Not even Mani Shankar Aiyar will say that. Another Rs 827 crore is being spent by the ministry of urban development for visible projects. The questions, and the problem, lie with the Rs 2,394 crore given over to Kalmadi’s OC.

From Above Link:
Total Cost = Rs 41,212 Crore
Delhi Metro Phase 2 = Rs 16,887 Crore
New DTC Buses = Rs 1800 Crore
Power Plants = Rs 12000 Crore
Bus Depot = Rs 400 Crore
Delhi Infrastructure Upgrade (Include Sewage & Drainage) = Rs 4000 Crore
Stadiums = Rs 2904 Crore
Ministry of Urban Devlopment projects = Rs 827 Crore
Kalmadi's OC = Rs 2394 Crore

Now, In the above SG has not added the cost of Airport which is roughly Rs 12700 Crore. Also, from the link on last page of this thread the Metro Phase2 has costed Rs 20,000 Crore which is Rs 3113 Crore more than mentioned by Shekhar Gupta.Therefor we if add up these two figures in the above Total Cost figure of Rs 41,212 it comes to Rs 57025 Crore
Where is rest of Rs 12975 Crore?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Oct 2010 00:51

^^^ Rest is for road development(repaving and beautification) perhaps where most of the corruption lies and hard to catch. How do you quantify the quality of roads during excessive monsoons.

Delhi has roughly 28,000 km of road networks as per this link. Average cost for repaving is $250k per km as per worldbank report. A max of 28,000 crores to repave to world standards.

Arterial roads are probably not more than 10% of the road length which got attention, so it is safe to assume ~ 3000-5000 crores on road development perhaps.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Oct 2010 01:01

ramana wrote:lalmulla, Google search thrwws this set of images. 4/123

http://photogallery.indiatimes.com/arti ... 681727.cms

jawohl mein general!
i want one of those!!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Oct 2010 01:03

^ they must include Rs 60,000 cr assigned to Rajeev Rojgar Yojana in CWG bill to balance accounts. That stopped rural india from stampeding CWG venues.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Oct 2010 01:09

^^ so you are now claiming the total to be 130,000 crores ?

Corruption is a moving target.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2010 01:26

Politicsparty says its close to Rs. 150K crores. So look at his site and see the details.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Oct 2010 01:54

Kalmadi hits out at Sheila

Full text: Kalmadi hits out at Sheila Dikshit

NDTV Correspondent, Updated: Sun, Oct 17, 2010 18:06 IST

New Delhi: The Chairman of the Organising Committee Suresh Kalmadi on Sunday hit out at the Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit for casting aspersions on the conduct of the Organising Committee.

http://cwg.ndtv.com/commonwealth/articl ... 60414.html

Kalmadi issued a press statement to counter the charges. Read full text:

Delhi Chief Minister Mrs Sheila Dikshit's aspersions on corruption in the Organising Committee Commonwealth Games 2010 Delhi are most disappointing and uncalled for. It is not right to deflect and point fingers at others when she must indulge in self-reflection on corruption in her own departments. She has said that the ways of the Organising Committee are mysterious whereas the Commonwealth Games chief Mr. Michael Fennell declared the conduct of the Games as exceptional and successful.

We have already welcomed the Prime Minister's decision to set up a probe panel and have said that we will support it. We are sure that the Terms of Reference of the Shunglu Committee will include not just the scope of work undertaken by the Organising Committee at a budget of Rs 1620 crore but also the Rs 16,000 crore spent by Delhi Government. Despite a series of attacks in the run up to the Games, I was quiet as

I wanted the Games to succeed. Keeping quiet should not be interpreted as a sign of weakness. Nor should patience be seen as a sign of guilt. It was more important to focus on the task of conducting the Games well.

National pride was at stake and I didn't want that to be affected. Our challenge was to keep the morale of our workforce of over 4000 high. We succeeded in doing that and ensuring the smooth delivery of the largest ever Commonwealth Games. But, on Dussehra day, I owe it to the Organising Committee that we speak out. We don't want to be the scapegoats anymore.
In 2005, in the overall scheme of preparation for the Games, Government laid down the following institutional arrangement:

• Sports Infrastructure is to be developed by Government agencies and funded directly by Government.• The development, upgradation and improvement of the city infrastructure are to be done by the Government of Delhi with the support of the Government of India.

• The responsibility for the Conduct and delivery of the Games is of the Organising Committee Commonwealth Games 2010 Delhi.

I am proud that the world has declared that conduct of the Games was faultless, with all competitions being held as per schedule. A massive amount of work was done in planning and preparing for the Games by innumerable people under the guidance of the Indian Olympic Association and National Sports Federations. The execution of these plans was impeccable. It led Organising Committee to deliver spectacular Opening and Closing Ceremonies that were overseen by the Group of Ministers.

The Games have succeeded because of the efforts of Team India, including a large number of people and agencies and not any individual. Mrs. Dikshit's attempt to take credit for getting the Games Village ready in time does not fit with the team concept. The Lieutenant Governor of Delhi and the Organising Committee, who were preparing the Village for over two years, co-ordinated the work of a number of agencies to ensure that it was entirely ready to welcome the athletes.
The Organising Committee was constantly being criticised for delays and shoddy work when we were not at all involved in any construction activity. Unmindful, we kept defending the venues and infrastructure and reassured the Games Family that everything would be ready in time for the Games.

When the foot overbridge near the Jawaharlal Nehru Stadium collapsed, it led to doubts about the safety of the people. Reports of delays in getting the city ready also caused many teams to believe that Games could not be held. We had to do a lot of hand-holding and cajoling to ensure that the full complement of 71 nations and territories took part in the Games.
We would like to point out that all decisions in the Organising Committee are made by the Executive Board, which includes two representatives each of the Central and Delhi Governments. And the Prime Minister's Office deputed a number of Government officers, including the CEO Mr, Jarnail Singh, to work with the Organising Committee.

Transparency and accountability remain the watch words in the Organising Committee. We are confident that the guilty will not be spared irrespective of which agency they belong to.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2010 02:04

So MMS was going to investigate the piddly Rs 1620 budget of the OC while letting the Rs 16000 crores of the Delhi Govt go scot/scrutiny free?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2010 02:08

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
Satya_anveshi wrote: to me this sounds most absurd concept - a club of rape victims celebrating their collective rapes with the master given central place?
Boss, Patel and Nehru felt the very same way you feel regarding the Commonwealth, if my interpretation of the literature that is floating around is any authority. In fact, Nehru for all his bonhomie with Mountbatten and the western culture wanted to get the eff out of this imaginary idea of Commonwealth and what not, at least to a certain degree. Nehru comes across as a confused post-modern Indian while Patel comes across as placing the traditional part of India above its immediate needs. The tensions were obvious and no amount of soothing from the Mahatma could have healed these diverse viewpoints.

On the other hand, the british for whatever silly^1 reason wanted to hold on to the Commonwealth. This was a serious downgrading from what Churchill held as his visions for the British Empire. From my understanding, which has been forged by the following three books, Churchill never forgave Attlee for these "transgressions":
The last thousand days of the British empire: Churchill, Roosevelt, and the birth of the Pax Americana --- Peter Clarke
http://books.google.com/books?id=Dbc5eI ... CCoQ6AEwAw
Gandhi and Churchill: The Rivalry That Destroyed an Empire and Forged Our Age --- Arthur Herman
http://books.google.com/books?id=s9_gAA ... CCcQ6AEwAA
The magic of Indian cricket: cricket and society in India --- Mihir Bose
http://books.google.com/books?id=X8HQiM ... &q&f=false

I made two x-posted posts on this matter. Please see: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... se#p920721

Singha posted this on why we should be in the Commonwealth: http://www.slate.com/id/2268989/ I am not too impressed by these reasons. The only realistic pro of sticking around with the Commonwealth (I can think of, that is) is to steer this exclusive club into a Pax-Indica in some sense, whether that sense is trade, foreign affairs, Anglais-speakers, Afro-Asian bonhomie, etc. is left to posterity. Ministry of Trade and the South Block think almost exactly along these lines, here is the latest uvacha: http://telegraphindia.com/1101017/jsp/b ... 066245.jsp
The obvious stumbling block is that the Commonwealth is a gora face in what is now the anglais-speaking world. The resistance towards transforming the Commonwealth into a trading block, let alone a FTA, is going to be huge. I think we should leave it to our much-maligned babus to do the needful in this matter. The vision is there, we should nt leave the Commonwealth till we get a better shot at steering this forum into OURS. Our paki-centric foreign policy approach has left a huge vacuum in terms of what we can easily gain in our near-abroad: the Afro-Asian post-british space and the Indian subcontinent minus pakistan are the most obvious blackholes. Slowly, but steadily, the South Block has been trying to fix this malady. The resistance again is HUGE, and the elephant needs a swift kick up its posterior.

PS: All that said and done, I am pissed at how the thaparites such as Ramachandra Guha have stolen the chronicling of Indian sport history by their Dalit pissing contests. I know that Daleets have been left out in what is India's progress to a more egalitarian society etc., but to make Palwankar Baloo the central piece of his supposed magnum opus (A Corner of a Foreign Field: The Indian History of a British Sport --- http://books.google.com/books?id=PxCie1 ... CD0Q6AEwBA ) is a serious and a bloody serious tragedy. This is NOT history, but hagiography at its worst. In any case, my takleef extends far beyond Ramachandra Guha and his fellow-comrades. I am more pissed because sports history chronicling goes far into my family, and these oiseaules have misinterpreted history to suit their secular needs.

Footnote 1: It is hard to term the idea of Commonwealth as "silly", at least as seen from the gora viewpoint. For that, one has to look at how Oz and NZ formed a federation in 1901+. Oz had always branded itself as the vague rebel in the family, but NZ not so dramatic a rebel. Despite all that rebellion, Oz still sees itself as an extended limb of the Anglo-Saxon past. Canada changed its national flag from what looked like an Oz-NZ-Fiji-Tuvalu counterpart only in the mid-50s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Canada). The point being, all these dominions forged a distinct "national" identity only very recently (Oz with Bodyline and ANZAC troops in Gallipoli etc.). And whatever national identity has been established now is seriously confusing to their own peoples (confusion regarding Quebec in Canada, the future of monarchy in Oz, etc.). The idea of unity amongst the british dominions quantified by a sporting spirit (forged in the 20s and 30s by the Canadians nonetheless) sounded like a seriously good idea to hold on to the cultural thinking space of Pax-Brittanica. In the post-WWII phase, with Roosevelt's desperate need to cut down the British Empire, this was like a last gasp effort at holding on to something far less dramatic than what could have been.

Great post Stan!

Meanwhile to add to your ideas:

India eyes common trade bloc

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101017/j ... 066245.jsp

India may have spent $8 billion in organising the Commonwealth Games this fortnight, but compared with the $93 billion it trades annually with the Commonwealth members, that spending is small change.

Top Indian officials said India had long advocated turning the “club” into a trade bloc where members enjoyed exclusive tariff advantages but has been thwarted by the British who preferred an euro-centric trade policy. However, it intends to use the former British colonies’ club to strike trade and investment deals to its benefit over the next few years.

Indian officials said, “Britain and Canada, which are the only two nations whose trade with other Commonwealth nations is in single digits, are also keen to turn the Commonwealth to their trading advantage … the reason of course is the economic weakness in European and American markets.”

“We do not envisage a Commonwealth trade pact in the near future but do visualise using the club to catapult FTAs (free trade agreements) and economic pacts. We are working on FTAs with Australia, Bangladesh and have similar deals with two other members — Sri Lanka and Singapore,” the officials said. A trade pact with Canada is also on the anvil.

So return of the Indian Commonwealth Empire !

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Oct 2010 02:10

ramana wrote:Politicsparty says its close to Rs. 150K crores. So look at his site and see the details.

The idea is this ramana-ji. Which one would you prefer?

- Rs 15000 Crore corruption in a Rs 25,000 crore project = 60% OR
- Rs 15000 Crore corruption in a Rs 50,000 crore project = 30% OR
- Rs 15000 Crore corruption in a Rs 100,000 crore project = 15% OR

Attempts are being made to show the amount of corruption to appear low (percentage wise). Public perception (philosophically) accepts a 15-20% corruption as a standard. This is to contain the public reaction.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Oct 2010 04:54

^^^ that is a valid point. How did I miss that possibility :-(

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2010 07:57

After swindling all the crores, the most heart bleeding part is falling bridges and bad quality roads. A stretch of well built 4 lane with utilities in masa cost only about $2 - $3MM per mile approx., and that comes with solid side walks, gutters, curbs, 1 1/2 feet of asphalt over 1/2 feet cemented crushed stones - these roads lasts for a long time.

Sorry for the healthy digression, but it hurts to read these babooze & cos. swindling desh.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 20 Oct 2010 08:51

^ LOL
healthy road in Delhi means:
Out of 3 lane road, relay only 1 lane. No gutter, no side walk, no removing existing deformities.
All roads in Delhi have risen by about a 1Foot in the last 5 years due to poor relaying. No one digs out the bump or the pothhole & smoothens it. As a result the new surface takes on the deformed shape of the previous layer.
By only relaying 1 lane, they raise the height difference between 2 lanes by as much as 2 inches at times. Then you have one scary bumpy ride
In Vasant vihar, there is an old busstop whose roof is now only 4 feet from the road! Thats the rise in the surface level!

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Oct 2010 11:05

SaiK wrote:After swindling all the crores, the most heart bleeding part is falling bridges and bad quality roads. A stretch of well built 4 lane with utilities in masa cost only about $2 - $3MM per mile approx., and that comes with solid side walks, gutters, curbs, 1 1/2 feet of asphalt over 1/2 feet cemented crushed stones - these roads lasts for a long time.

You missed several zeros there. Out in Nebraska maybe. Usually a 6 lane expressway is often in the 20-30 million per mile range on just about anywhere else. It is not unusual for a single interchange to cost $ 1 Billion. Don't kid yourself, the first world is bloody expensive. Also these roads do not last more than 15 years of heavy traffic. Which is why most inter states are in such bad shape. And typical Asphalt highway standards are rarely over 8.5 inches total, anything more and road becomes too prone to fracture. Of course the sub-grade it self might be another 12 inch layer of AB-3 limestone or flyash. Similar for concrete.

Honestly I find this very silly guys. We have an economy saving close to $600 billion every year. The $ 5 Billion we spent is roughly 3 days of savings. Are there lessons to be learnt. Yup. Are there things to do better. Yup. But this carping over claimed corruption with such weak shreds of evidence (don't give me that toilet roll example) is very asinine. We are not going to get any where if every time we have a mess up we are ready to shoot everyone involved.

Does anyone remember that Sreedharan was under attack over the cost escalations and faulty routing of the Konkan railway. Wonder if we should have just shot him then.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Oct 2010 11:25

>> It is not unusual for a single interchange to cost $ 1 Billion

I saw somewhere on TV that US interstates have a 12" thick layer on top and autobahn 24". must be obscenely expensive to build and maintain the autobahns.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Oct 2010 12:25

some autobahns are concrete with no tarmac, but they are sturdy. interestingly, many are 2 lane (each way) and not 3 lane (each way), which is interesting when you are being tailed by a Porsche 911 doing 200km/hr!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Oct 2010 13:21

Singha wrote:>> It is not unusual for a single interchange to cost $ 1 Billion

I saw somewhere on TV that US interstates have a 12" thick layer on top and autobahn 24". must be obscenely expensive to build and maintain the autobahns.

The funda of the autobahn is that it was conceived and built to facilitate quick movements of tanks during the great wars.

This alone accounts for it's exceptionally sturdy construction.

It also undergoes exceptional maintenance even today.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Oct 2010 13:32

the autobahns were amongst hitlers great national rebuilding programmes following the economic depression of the 1920's and heralded the strong germany going into the mid 30's and onwards to WW2 in 39

much of the US highway system was also built during the 30's as part of the new deal national reconstruction programme following the great depression

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 20 Oct 2010 15:52

Lalmohan wrote:some autobahns are concrete with no tarmac, but they are sturdy. interestingly, many are 2 lane (each way) and not 3 lane (each way), which is interesting when you are being tailed by a Porsche 911 doing 200km/hr!

inter-state highways in US are basically 2x2 lane systems which swell into 3x3/4x4 etc near cities only.

if i'm not wrong, for a road to be called interstate it has to meet some federal govt specs, which are very expensive to meet. states get grants from feds. states by themselves cannot build roads of that quality, they are barely able to maintain them. quality of state built roads depends on the state. some state highways have barely any shoulders, thin markings that are useless in rain etc.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Oct 2010 18:54

chetak wrote:The funda of the autobahn is that it was conceived and built to facilitate quick movements of tanks during the great wars.

Some of the Autobahn sections and expressways were built to allow landing of aircraft

so sections could be converted to airports during war.

The real beauty of the Autobahn of the Autobahn is the 4% grade maximum and the minimum curve radius of 10,000 feet. Also no at grade intersections. Sections of the Autobahn are very thick to deal with the freeze/thaw in Germany. In the US engineers tried to skate by this for the cheaper expressways not always successfully. Typically you need a 30" deep section for this.

A major reason US roads and bridges have deteriorated so rapidly is the use of salt. The practice only began in large scale in the 70's and became more and more prevalent in the 80's to 90's. The roads and bridges built then, particularly the iron bits were never designed to handle this.

At some point we are going to have to get used to spending that kind of money. A connection at those standards just between say Hyderabad and Vizag will cost in excess of $10 Billion. Already NHAI is approaching the point were all new expressways will be 3 lane minimum. No point building 2 lane in India.

And here we are carping about the CWG expense.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Oct 2010 19:25

^^^ Just repaving at $250k per km at yr2000 rates (from the world bank link, so not necessarily auto-bahn quality) for Dilli roads will cost 28,000 crores or $5billion every few years.

So for the top 20 cities in India alone, you are already looking at $100 billion in costs for maintenance for city roads every 5 or so years.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Oct 2010 19:30

^^^ being a world class city has its drawbacks

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Oct 2010 19:45

^^ "great powers have great expenses too"

but wouldnt labour and raw materials like sand and stone be cheaper in india . I know from friends they dream of kitchen granite slabs in US but here everyone gets granite for kitchen and baths easily.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Oct 2010 19:49

i am sure that the equivalent indian cost will be a lot lower
and we'll have the workers sleeping on pavements and crapping on the side of the new gaDDibahn too, so that will save even more money (sarcasm)

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Oct 2010 19:57

Lalmohan wrote:and we'll have the workers sleeping on pavements and crapping on the side of the new gaDDibahn too, so that will save even more money (sarcasm)

This is absolutely right. You want Jugaad price, you will get Jugaad construction.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Oct 2010 21:16

Lalmohan wrote:much of the US highway system was also built during the 30's as part of the new deal national reconstruction programme following the great depression

Although planning for the network starting in the 20's, the interstates were championed by Eisenhower ( an ethnic German himself) in the post-WW2 period after seeing the autobahns in Germany. More than the cost or engineering aspects, having strong personalities at the helm seems to be an essential component of building a good road network.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Oct 2010 21:26

seems even then they had faced certain land acquisition protests but bulldozed their way through...no 'dalits' and 'forest dwellers' since these (american indians) had already been shunted into marginal reservations in 19th century and allowed to descend into drink and ruin.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Oct 2010 21:30

actually the bigger genocide happened with small pox and measles before the great western expansion started, entire cultures dissappeared, e.g. the Mandan people of the missisipi and missouri river basins
those tribes that survived (maybe 1/3rd of what there had been) put up what resistance they could against the massive overwhelming machine of "manifest destiny"

by the 1930's a policy of forced reeducation was underway to make the tribal people forget their native pasts...

and they preach to others about human rights...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Oct 2010 23:14

vera_k wrote: More than the cost or engineering aspects, having strong personalities at the helm seems to be an essential component of building a good road network.

This should definitely be one lesson to take away from the CWG. A strong individual must be at the top and empowered to take the unpleasant and tough decisions necessary. Not a politician like Kalmadi who actually cares about his political future.

If anyone is interested look up a person called Robert Moses WRT to New York, IMHO the only reason New York is livable today. He could never get elected to public office yet completely changed the city.

Also WRT to interstates in cities notice that they almost always slice through old neighborhood were certain minorities live. This is not an accident.

A little OT here.

And WRT to Native Americans don't kid yourself, they weren't angels to begin with and if Native Americans ruled North America today, we the real Indians would NOT be welcome just as we are not welcome to their reservations. Having met some of them all I can say is nice people but extremely race conscious, purity of blood and all that thing. One of the reasons the Native Americans were so vulnerable was that it is thought their ancestors had destroyed much of the mega-fauna of America. From the horse, elephant, camel, etc onwards. Talk about karma coming back to bit you in the Musharraf. The bearing capacity of the land was reduced to a few million people. If you notice Oiropeans conquered 2 continents, North America and Australia. Both native populations had exterminated their bio-diversity. South America largely survived despite the slaughter in the Amazon.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 21 Oct 2010 00:20

Satya_anveshi wrote: Certainly addressed my immediate inquiry and gave further pointers for me to explore. I am convinced that if we could sell all the malham-patti to the victims, why not stick around and milk to our needs.

Satya, I just read and re-read some of the docs that were piling up on my system. If I have to summarize what I read, it will take us fairly far away from what is relevant in this thread and take us back to 1947 and even a 100 years before that. If you are keen, my [warning: loooong] take on this matter is at: http://dharma-yuddham.blogspot.com/2010 ... eline.html

To be fairly honest, my take on the Commonwealth is hardly black and white with more confusion than clarity to the issue. While Nehru's change from rejecting the Commonwealth to accepting it should not be entirely surprising, what actually went on in the really important 1949 Prime Ministers Conference is NOT clear as yet. I have hold of the british propaganda on this matter (quite a bit actually), and even some de-listed MI5 documents which claim that the Indian change in attitude as british intelligence's stunning victory in the post-WWII days. Despite all that, many Indian documents are still covered under the OSA from the best of my understanding. I have one well-informed and well-connected historian's ambiguous take on the Commonwealth matters, but it is really really unclear as to what happened in 1949.

The case of why Non-Alignment was temporarily suspended just shows that we are standing on the tip of that iceberg called OSA. OTOH, some of the official correspondences of folks in those era are soooooooo civil, sooooo legalese and puritanical that I am ashamed at some of the verbose JUNK that emanates from today's press.

Thanks, ramana.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 Oct 2010 02:41

Theo_Fidel wrote: Some of the Autobahn sections and expressways were built to allow landing of aircraft so sections could be converted to airports during war.

Dunno about Autobahn but w.r.t US Interstates that just turned out to be an urban legend. Ofcourse many countries (esp. in scandinavia) have practiced aircraft landings and take offs from highways but it is still more of a novelty. Making an existing highway clean enough to avoid FOD takes quite a lot of time.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 21 Oct 2010 06:46

Theo_Fidel wrote:
And WRT to Native Americans don't kid yourself, they weren't angels to begin with and if Native Americans ruled North America today, we the real Indians would NOT be welcome just as we are not welcome to their reservations. Having met some of them all I can say is nice people but extremely race conscious, purity of blood and all that thing. One of the reasons the Native Americans were so vulnerable was that it is thought their ancestors had destroyed much of the mega-fauna of America. From the horse, elephant, camel, etc onwards. Talk about karma coming back to bit you in the Musharraf. The bearing capacity of the land was reduced to a few million people. If you notice Oiropeans conquered 2 continents, North America and Australia. Both native populations had exterminated their bio-diversity. South America largely survived despite the slaughter in the Amazon.

OT, but still

hmm... white people version I see here, Theo-saar

If you are driven out of your ancestral lands in India by the brits and made to drink arrack in a far off place, would you welcome say, a chinese dude who came to work in your area? The Native American has a reason to be bitter and are paranoid about their blood lines - their tribes are scattered with no chance of recovery. But there are only a handful of Chiefs who are really worried. Rest are dressing up in furs and swaggering around with diamond pimp-canes got from those gambling licenses.

Mega-fauna died all over the world at that time (including Siberia, Central asia etc), due to climate change as well as Mega-fauna not being agile enough to escape intelligent predators. Let us take something more nearer to our times, for which we have records - Medium-fauna like the American Buffalo/Bison. They were hunted to near extinction not by the Native Americans but by the usual suspects.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Oct 2010 07:39

south america has all of one large 4 legged animal suitable for load carrying - the Llama. based on that the Inca in Peru could develop a large empire than aztec and maya of mehico. north america had no such animal - the bison is too unruly a beast to use for domestication. the cougar, wolf, grizzly bear are shall we say best left alone - always ready to rip anyone

the inca uses dogs as food animals, fattening them on household waste due to no domesticated pigs in south american then.

but the most critical animal lacking for war and mobility was - the horse. the horse is *the* animal on which the largest empires have been built leading to lots of trade and innovation in the old world. domesticating the horse and finding the right breeds of domestic cattle were more game changers than the iphone

the "mustangs" in north america are runaway ferals from the spanish era not old natives. the rohirim never made it across the bering strait before sea levels closed that route - while adaptable as ever the cats worked their way through and so did the camel - llama, vicuna...they kept right on doing due to colder north america probably.

probably north american lacked in the tropical and temperate river valleys and in the variety of 'grass plants' - rice/wheat/barley that gave rise to food surplus in most ancient civilizations. iirc corn or taro is not as protein dense as good quality wheat.

Stan saar, you need to read "guns, germs and steel" book.

'success' or atleast its ingredients is often a matter of being in right place @ right time.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Oct 2010 08:05

We have some benchmarks in India

Phase I: The Golden Quadrilateral (GQ; 5,846 km) connecting the four major cities of Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai and Kolkata. This project connecting four metro cities, would be 5,846 km. Total cost of the project is Rs300 billion (US$6.8 billion), funded largely by the government’s special petroleum product tax revenues and government borrowing. As of January 2009 5,796 km of the intended 5,846 km has been 4 laned.[1]

That is Rs 5 crores per 1KM of 4-lane road. Even after adding inflation and Kallumama's life; it cannot be more than Rs 10 Crore per KM in Delhi for a 4-lane road.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 Oct 2010 08:28

Singha wrote:the "mustangs" in north america are runaway ferals from the spanish era not old natives. the rohirim never made it across the bering strait before sea levels closed that route - while adaptable as ever the cats worked their way through and so did the camel - llama, vicuna...they kept right on doing due to colder north america probably.

The horse and camel are American natives. They moved to the old world across bering strait from america not the other way around. So did the Cheetah for instance. Imagine the native American mastered the horse first. They would have conquered the world. Instead they appear to have eaten them.

Last on OT before I get yelled at.
hnair I have some some pointed rejoinders on things you may be missing but sadly OT.

RamaY the Highway projects are not to expressway standards, esp. WRT to grading, access control, fencing, interchanges, signage, etc.
In the US they would not even qualify as state highways. Rural highway maybe, even that is pushing it. This is not a fair comparison.
Also remember that much of the new projects were given on Toll revenue format with the government only providing a VGF. A lot of the expense is hidden.

I repeat that to build a modern expressway to even the low US standards would at least cost us in the 25-50 crore per km range.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Oct 2010 08:55

^ I thought we were talking about the road construction in Delhi for CWG. I dont think Delhi roads were built per expressway standards.

Even in US the expressway standards chance as you go away from cities. If you go to mid-west the expressways are no different from GQ-expressways. I lived in West-coast, Mid-west, South-west and North-East regions.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 21 Oct 2010 09:10

Sanjay Kolte wins Gold in 52 kg category World Military Games Boxing defeating Juliao Neto of Brazil. 14 countries are participating in these game held at North Carolina US of A.

Santosh Singh bags gold in 56 KG category.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 21 Oct 2010 09:11

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Satya, I just read and re-read some of the docs that were piling up on my system. If I have to summarize what I read, it will take us fairly far away from what is relevant in this thread and take us back to 1947 and even a 100 years before that. If you are keen, my [warning: loooong] take on this matter is at: http://dharma-yuddham.blogspot.com/2010 ... eline.html

Stan ji,

wow! the article on the blog is fresh (Oct 19th)

Thanks for the link to your blog. Never mind the length and keep it coming. I will review and follow up with questions.