Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocean

[devesh]

Rudradev ji,

standing now, in 2011, 50 years after the "periyar wave", we can analyze everything in hindsight. but during his time, the "periyar movement" was everything but "inclusive" of the Indian identity. the most vocal followers of his philosophy would have gladly betrayed India if they had the opportunity to do so. their hatred for India was very evident in their rhetoric and their deeds.

Have I ever said that TN people today are traitors? But I firmly believe that a staunch "Periyarist", whether back then or today, is one step away from being a traitor. if they had the opportunity to do so, they would gladly do it. and don't do == with some poor hungry fellow on the street.

also, the discussion about the Dravidian race theories is b/c of the possibility of such theories having taken shape under the watchful gaze of interested parties to sow dissension. are we allowed to study this or will that hurt the delicate sensibilities of the "truth seekers" who "tilt at the windmills"???

[devesh]

Stan,

I will take the lead and try to explain why AP has such a huge share of Naxals. anybody with rudimentary understanding of AP politics knows this: the hatred against the "Doras" (literally "chief" or "lord") is the main reason. these doras are possibly one of the worst groups of collective exploitation that Indian history has produced. I wouldn't say THE worst. but definitely ONE OF THE WORST.

many such Doras were kicked out of their villages and rural places into urban cities by the Naxals. if you know the right people from AP, even today you see their disdain for the "servants" and the denigration they heap on the people that they once lorded over.

I won't start naming the specific group of people when I say Doras, but those who know can make obvious conclusions. and no, it isn't the Brahmins. in most portions of AP, priests were historically almost desperately dependent on patronage. in Telangana, I know from personal experience that Brahmins taking up govt jobs in traditional civil service is also a phenomenon that developed only in the last 2 generations.

[devesh]

Lets have equal opportunity bashing and bring out the Indic-ness of every state here. The title of this dhaaga starts with "South India" and focuses primarily on TN. So when you state, South India means all of the South, you think you are being credible? South India is a fig leaf to pisk the inconvenient non-Brahmins who rose to demographic certainty. Why they did, what they did, etc., are hardly in question. The fact that they rose up makes them traitors. Eeks, have nt we seen such super logic used for the Telenganites in the T-dhaaga?

Ramana, I will answer if you take the lead and explain why so many naxal top leaders are from AP. Cmon, sir, please take the lead . After all this is a South India discussion thread.

nope. their "rising up" doesn't create any consternation in me. this is purely you projecting what you want to believe.
and once again, the non-Brahmins are not "inconvenient" for me. on the contrary, the elite English educated Brahmins who then become the mouthpieces of Marxist history are increasingly becoming "inconvenient" in my worldview.

and yes, in my worldview, "South" consists, at least linguistically, of 4 states. I am sure you know which I am referring to.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Devesh, if your goal is to study "Periyarists", then you should ask the question how is it relevant to Anglo-american strategy in "South India" today and how many "Periyarists" there are out there? You should look at the leaders of the DK and read about them, and see how many people follow them. I can count 3 leaders who wear black shirts for every useless meeting, a certain relic of the past . You should understand why the DMK arose from the DK, why the JP gave rise to the DK, where the JP itself came from and what was the takleef that led to Periyar coming out of the Congress and being anti-Congress all his life. You should understand Vaikkom and the impact it had on Periyar. You should figure out the respect Rajaji and Periyar had for each other despite ideological issues. You should understand the fallibilities of Rajaji and why he himself came out of the Congress to form Swatantra. You should see where people like Kamaraj, Bhaktavatsalam, C. Subramaniam, R. Venkatraman, Kakkan, Kumarasami Raja, Muthuramalinga Thevar, etc. fit in. These people somehow are relevant even today as many casteist parties in the South build their theories of vengeance on these people and their caste affiliations. Much later, you should see why ADMK split off from DMK. You should understand the ideology on which the Dravidian movement of today stands, on what it stood, and why it could wipe out the much-established Congress in one fell swoop in the 1967 elections. You should understand the language wars without getting too impassioned about your own ideological wishes and viewpoints. You should see the Constitutional debates on language, autonomy, pre-Sarkaria Commission diktats on Center-State relations. You should understand the power of student politics when you state that "nobody matched the level of mass mobilization", power of stalinist propaganda, power of celluloid, power of mega-playwrights, power of new-age Tamil iconography including arts, novels, short stories, etc., impact of Burma Chettiyars and their problems, Ceylon plantation Tamil problems, problems in Malaysia and Singapore, etc. All this requires work. Ideally, opinions get formed after one reads, understands and summarizes, not like I have done it all, just that I know such a huge task exists. Here, opinions have been formed, yet there is no clarity on what people understand. When questioned, the same old beaten to death theories of one line high school post-47 history are stated. I am sure, there is more to history than 1 or 2 lines of your views on what happened, no?! . You dont need complicated Thamizh rakshak theories when the fact that things are more complicated is sufficient .

Truth seeking is not merely an end in itself, truth seeking should mean being able to stand up to the truth even if it goes against your own ideological proclivity and even if you hate to state it so.

On maoists, we have/had similar problems in pre-47 TN, but we dont have naxals today. We have large land-owners, we have caste issues, we have all that jazz, you should nt expect anything else given the close proximity of TN and AP. Everywhere in India, we had the same issues. In WB, the much hated "Hindu" zamindars were there. Yet, there are not many naxals in TN, but in AP alone. AP was a communist bastion much before independence, along with Kerala and WB. Kerala and WB have nt kicked out communism from their midsts, but AP has. But AP also has a visceral form of communism in the form of maoists, which WB also had/has. Kerala does nt have. So what explains the trajectory of the three states? Its easy to pigeonhole things that we dont understand in a box that we understand. Life is not that easy.

[SwamyG]

once again the separate identity of TN is discussed so much b/c TN is the place where regional nationalism IN EXCLUSION of the Indian identity has such a strong hold. Hyderabad doesn't have it. Sikkim doesn't have it. Goa used to have it, but not anymore.

So who fasted till death for division of the country based on lingual divisions?

[Klaus]

Why not just use the term Peninsular India instead of South? A-A objective is to foreclose rise of Vijayangara with Navy although I tend to think that the repeat of Chola, Pandya, Kakatiya and Chera is taking place with the EJ's playing a prominent role.

IOW, the ideological hollowing out of Vijayanagara (modern day peninsula) when it has a Navy, reverse of what happened in the years leading upto 1565.

[Rudradev]

Rudradev ji,

standing now, in 2011, 50 years after the "periyar wave", we can analyze everything in hindsight. but during his time, the "periyar movement" was everything but "inclusive" of the Indian identity. the most vocal followers of his philosophy would have gladly betrayed India if they had the opportunity to do so. their hatred for India was very evident in their rhetoric and their deeds.

Have I ever said that TN people today are traitors? But I firmly believe that a staunch "Periyarist", whether back then or today, is one step away from being a traitor.

Devesh-ji, your words in a previous post were:

once again the separate identity of TN is discussed so much b/c TN is the place where regional nationalism IN EXCLUSION of the Indian identity has such a strong hold. Hyderabad doesn't have it. Sikkim doesn't have it. Goa used to have it, but not anymore.

Hope you see how the assertion about TN seems to be very much in the present tense. That is a very far cry from talking about analysing the Periyar wave after 50 years, in hindsight, and what the leaders of that time "would have done" etc. (apart from the fact that, when China attacked, they didn't do it.)

if they had the opportunity to do so, they would gladly do it. and don't do == with some poor hungry fellow on the street.

There is no "== with poor hungry fellows" in my post. Poor hungry fellows on the street do not have family gold to sell for the welfare of Indian soldiers. Poor hungry fellows on the street are not asked poll questions about "autonomy for J&K" by English-language newspapers. These are the provinces of the middle class, the people who have time on their hands to consider and buy into or reject political ideologies.

What does that say about the regional nationalism in exclusion of the Indian identity, or the lack thereof, in the Tamil Nadu middle class? Either now, or in 1962?

[Rudradev]

Ok guys, enough of this. This thread turned out to be a flawed way to explore a theory that probably isn't very sound in itself. And we know what that leads to....




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[SwamyG]

I won't start naming the specific group of people when I say Doras, but those who know can make obvious conclusions. and no, it isn't the Brahmins. in most portions of AP, priests were historically almost desperately dependent on patronage. in Telangana, I know from personal experience that Brahmins taking up govt jobs in traditional civil service is also a phenomenon that developed only in the last 2 generations.

One of my grand-fathers was called 'dorai' because in his hay days he looked like one - it seems.

[devesh]

once again the separate identity of TN is discussed so much b/c TN is the place where regional nationalism IN EXCLUSION of the Indian identity has such a strong hold. Hyderabad doesn't have it. Sikkim doesn't have it. Goa used to have it, but not anymore.

So who fasted till death for division of the country based on lingual divisions?

yup, did PS argue for a Andhra race theory? did he spew hatred at "North India"? did he spew hatred against any "target community"?

FYI, I don't agree with PS's stance and I personally think his fast unto death has left a huge burden on generations of Indians. but PS cannot be compared to EVR.

as for how "dorai" developed in TN, I have no idea. but in AP the "Dora" refers only to one particular group, regardless of caste.

[devesh]

Why not just use the term Peninsular India instead of South? A-A objective is to foreclose rise of Vijayangara with Navy although I tend to think that the repeat of Chola, Pandya, Kakatiya and Chera is taking place with the EJ's playing a prominent role.

IOW, the ideological hollowing out of Vijayanagara (modern day peninsula) when it has a Navy, reverse of what happened in the years leading upto 1565.

IOW, mental defeat is already inflicted while a "physical" facade is left for public consumption.

[devesh]

On maoists, we have/had similar problems in pre-47 TN, but we dont have naxals today. We have large land-owners, we have caste issues, we have all that jazz, you should nt expect anything else given the close proximity of TN and AP. Everywhere in India, we had the same issues. In WB, the much hated "Hindu" zamindars were there. Yet, there are not many naxals in TN, but in AP alone. AP was a communist bastion much before independence, along with Kerala and WB. Kerala and WB have nt kicked out communism from their midsts, but AP has. But AP also has a visceral form of communism in the form of maoists, which WB also had/has. Kerala does nt have. So what explains the trajectory of the three states? Its easy to pigeonhole things that we dont understand in a box that we understand. Life is not that easy.

Stan,
I would be very much willing to know more on this. and I am not being sarcastic. IMO, the "Dora" problem in AP was much more exacerbated than in TN. but you are hinting at the "existence" of other causes/reasons, if I am getting you right. I would def appreciate pointers in any direction of investigation.

as for data, in the first half of 20th century, a comparison between Hyd state and Madras presidency shows that 40% of district revenue collections were spent in the district, while in Hyd, it was 3%. the Dora problem was compounded by a truly greedy and exploitative Nizam Raj.

[member_19686]

"non Brahmins" here is a cover for other upper caste Tamils.

EVR was a hate mongering bigot against both Brahmins and Harijans. Had he spewed the nonsense against Harijans that he did today, he would be locked up.

There is a whole hagiography built up around him including fancy titles like "Vaikom Veerar" (which is more like Vaikom Tourist according to the author Rajeev Srinivasan whose family took part in this movement).

One of his pearls of wisdom apparently included the following:

"One of the main reasons why there is an upward trend in the prices of clothes and textiles is that women belonging to the Scheduled Castes have started wearing blouses these days. The reason for growing unemployment in society is on account of increasing number of people belonging to Scheduled Castes (Parayans) taking to school education and higher education."

Another pearl was:

"For more than 40 years, I have been describing Tamil as a barbarous language (Kattumirandi Mozhi) used only by barbarians. When Brahmins and the Brahmin-dominated government wanted to make Hindi a State language, I started, to a very limited extent, advocating the promotion of Tamil language only to oppose the imposition of Hindi language. The only language that ought to replace Tamil is English. What is not there in English which can be found in Tamil Language?"



E V Ramasamy Naickarin Marupakkam by Venkatesan apparently documents all this. Reviewed here:

http://tamilnation.co/books/Politics/venkatesan.htm

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

IB4TL (Please )

[ramana]

Guys the idea was to explore the first part of the thread title and yet it is turning into a fish market fight. So am going to lock the thread. Thanks for all who participated positively and negatively too!