Indian Army : News and Discussion

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 26 Feb 2012 16:05

chackojoseph wrote:Army - Air Force rescues nine civilians in Avalanche hit Sonamarg

Possible solution is to purchase/donate beacons for all troops deployed in avalanche zones so that they can be found quickly. Training also helps. When an avalanche happens, you have around an hour or so to save their life.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Feb 2012 16:17

actually only troops going on patrol or those in exposed posts need it

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Feb 2012 16:13

India plans war games near Pakistan border

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 27 Feb 2012 22:13

These day's most of the snow jackets come equipped with these rescue beacons and they are not costly.

In US, few days back there was an avalanche (Washington state) and there was one survivor. She was wearing a new inflatable jacket which activated by itself during this avalanche.

Lot of soldiers can be saved if such inflatable jackets can be supplied to soldiers who are stationed in such dangerous posts.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 27 Feb 2012 23:07

Can't their radios be used to triangulate their position ?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Feb 2012 23:08

why not even have the men wear avalanche bags and beacons and have more mules/dogs to support load carrying? not always practical i know...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Feb 2012 23:11

One of the avalanches was caught on camera

TIMES NOW has accessed the dramatic footage of 2 avalanches that swept through the Gurez sector of the Kashmir Valley. One of the senior most Army offcers in the area, Lt Gen Hasnain, had a narrow escape even as he was taking stock of the rescue operations following last week's avalanches in which 17 soldiers were killed.

http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4396769.cms

Take a look, at the mass (the little green dots are trees) -- I am not a expert but have some experience with snow and skids in US and some in Himalaya's. -- It would be interesting to see how much the Ameeriki tech holds up in a monster of the above size.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Feb 2012 00:38

^^ It's quite unfair to say that only we have such monstrous avalanches. At the same time i would say that if someone is caught in such incidents no technology can save you.

What we can have are preventive measures. Like provide troops snowmobiles and use air surveillance (using UAV) on places which are hard to go on foot or vehicle!

All we can do is pray and speculate because army guys are not dumb, they must be already thinking about this.

Hope corrective measures are taken to prevent such future fatalities.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Feb 2012 01:01

Sid wrote:^^ It's quite unfair to say that only we have such monstrous avalanches. .

Geography is unfair, as the teens found out.

The world is not flat.

All we can do is pray and speculate because army guys are not dumb, they must be already thinking about this.

They would certainly already have thought about it already in addition to continually thinking about it, do you think this was the first time they came to know of this phenomena?

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... in-kashmir

Avalanches sweep two buses off the highway between Srinagar and Jammu in Kashmir, India, on this day in 1995. Two more days of avalanches in the area eventually killed more than 200 people; 5,000 others had to be rescued.

Please look at this

Snow and Avalanche Study Establishment
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/SASE/Engli ... mebody.jsp

Products

Consultancy services to State Governments for the protection of important installations and settlements.
Consultancy to Border Road Organization.
Avalanche Forecasting for civil population of J&K, Uttaranchal and HP .
Expertise in realignment of roads and co-location of camps etc in snow-bound areas .
Designing of avalanche control structures .
Model Technology of formation zone control structures has been developed and successfully implemented at one of the most frequent avalanche sites called as “D-10 avalanche site (Banihal top)” located on Jammu – Srinagar National Highway -1A.
Snow Cover Characterization / Mapping using Remote sensing.

What is the moral of the story?

In Kashmir and other places in Himalaya's serving will be always a risk, a very high risk, continually battled against, despite all the technologies and everything else and all the care.

All those who serve, know this and serve despite that -- I dont think enough Indians understand that.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Feb 2012 01:05

Know your India -- 101

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/SASE/Engli ... chieve.jsp

Achievements
Development of Operational Avalanche Forecast Models for Western Himalaya
Permanent Control of D-10 Avalanche Site near Banihal Pass, NH1A (J & K)
Designing of Avalanche Mitigation Schemes for NH1 (J&K) and NH21 (Manali-Dhundi, HP)
Permanent Control of Avalanches near Sh Badrinath Puri, Uttaranchal
Established State-of-the-Art Cold Laboratory Facility
Development of Snow Cover Model for different Snow Climatic Zones.
Development of UAV (Vihang Netra) for Snow Studies
Network of Automatic Weather Stations and RRTS in Western Himalaya.
Established three Upper Air Stations at Jammu, Sasoma and Manali
Established Mountain Met Centres (MMC) at Srinagar and Sasoma.
Established Remote Sensing Lab and MODIS / HRPT Earth Receiving Station for Snowcover and Terrain Mapping
Digital Avalanche Atlases
Multimedia films on Avalanche Safety & Rescue Methods
Regular Training of Troops using latest IT tools
DRDO Winter Sports Club

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Feb 2012 01:20

^^ Shanku, yes I am aware of that. My old man served in Zoji-la during late 80s and was caught in few avalanches himself. In one instance they survived by hiding under a boulder and thankfully that avalanche was not that sever.

Since technology is evolving so should we (and hopefully we are).

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Feb 2012 01:26

Sid wrote:^^ It's quite unfair to say that only we have such monstrous avalanches.

Other than calving events in Antartic, it is fair to say that Himalayas have some of the most vicious and largest events. K2, Annapurna, Nangaparbat, Kanchenjunga etc are amongst the scariest fricking places on earth.

What we can have are preventive measures. Like provide troops snowmobiles and use air surveillance (using UAV) on places which are hard to go on foot or vehicle!

Post-avalanche SAR efforts **might** be helped by the UAVs, but not preventive. Snowmobiles are dangerous in powdery slopes beyond a certain gradient. "Provide troops with snowmobiles" is an old BRF meme that needs to be rethought, I feel. Particularly considering the ridge type terrains

Helicopters with rescue teams homing in on beacons are good. ski/snowshoe patrols dropped at ridge lines with good rescue dogs. It is a painfully slow effort.

I had mentioned in a post in previous page - avalanches can be dealt with only by a combo of sampling base-layers and preventive anchoring/packing. No remote sensors can yet do that manual job of poking till you reach those base layers, a few feet deep under the top layers.

Khanlanders, despite their great lead in sensor tech and even greater lead in REI chain-stores manned by wholesome hippy chicks, are considered bacchas in the mountains. Their rockstar mountaineer (The Veterinarian, a great climber himself) himself modestly admits as much in interviews. It is SAARCans(lesser H&D seekers) and Oiros (greater H&D seekers) all the way.

I really wish they investigate the recent ones. Freak weather or not.

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Feb 2012 02:55

Northern parts of India received one of the heaviest snow falls measured in last 4 decades , even places which had not received snow for more than two decades saw a fair bit of snow.

One practical solution could be to induce smaller avalanches after a snow fall to prevent excessive build up of snow which leads to much bigger and destructive avalanches.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Feb 2012 13:30

^^^ common practice in alps, i am sure that IA does it too
but if the terrain is really remote then its not possible to cover every eventuality

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 28 Feb 2012 15:05

Army chief General VK Singh denied permission to travel to Israel

The Ministry of Defence has reportedly denied General VK Singh permission to travel to Israel. General Singh was scheduled to visit the country from March 16 to 18.

The ministry has cited "critical situation prevailing in the Middle-East" as the reason to deny him permission and has advised him to travel there in the latter part of the year.

General VK Singh, who retires on May 31, became the first serving army chief to take the government to court over his age. General Singh withdrew his petition after the court sided with the government.

While the ministry of defence has denied that the permission denial is a fall out of the age controversy, sources say it is directly related to the issue

How can a country expect the rest of the world to respect it, while it seems that at home its political-bureaucratic nexus keeps disrespecting and undermining all other constitutional institutions?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Feb 2012 21:08

Army saves life in remote area of Machhal

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 28 Feb 2012 22:07

Arun Roperia wrote:...
How can a country expect the rest of the world to respect it, while it seems that at home its political-bureaucratic nexus keeps disrespecting and undermining all other constitutional institutions?

Must we see controversy in everything??
Shouldn't the MEA/MOD have a say in issues related to representing a country? ...

--Ashish

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2012 22:42

Most likely there is going to be strife in the region. A visit by senior defence personnel prior to that could be mispercieved as an endorsement or collusion. So no point in giving wrong signals.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2012 22:58

Aditya_V wrote:India plans war games near Pakistan border

Nightwatch comments:

For the night of 27 February 2012

India-Pakistan: The Indian military is planning a 20,000-troop war exercise near the India-Pakistan border, an Indian Army spokesman said on 27 February. The spokesman said the maneuvers, which will include 200 Russian-made tanks and the country's latest combat aircraft, will occur in the Indian state of Rajasthan from March to May.

Comment: The exercise announcement satisfies the mutual agreement the leaders of the two states have exchanged to avoid escalation to conflict owing to a misperception of routine training. As major Indian exercises are measured in the past 60 years, this is not a big one.

The location in the Rajasthan Desert region means the location is "tank country." That means that the target for an Indian Army armored offensive thrust from Rajasthan into Pakistan would be to cut Pakistan in half, just north of Karachi. The terrain from the Indian border to the east bank of the Indus River in Pakistan is tank country that favors the offense.

India permanently bases 12 World War I-style infantry divisions, containing about 250,000 soldiers, on the international border with Pakistan, which runs from the Indian Ocean to the southern border of Jammu and Kashmir State. It maintains an additional 250,000 soldiers along the ceasefire line in Kashmir, called the Line of Control.

An exercise in Rajasthan that involves 20,000 soldiers and 200 tanks is noteworthy, but not escalatory. It means India still considers Pakistan a potential enemy, but not necessarily the primary enemy. That would be China.

The timing of the exercise suggests it is part of the late winter Army collective training, and thus normal. The significance is that it means India has not let down its guard against Pakistan, despite the improvement in ties during the past ten years.

A key enabler would be to upgrade the combat capability of those old style divisions. But every chief who tries that gets bogged down in MOD games.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Feb 2012 23:05

ramana wrote:Most likely there is going to be strife in the region. A visit by senior defence personnel prior to that could be mispercieved as an endorsement or collusion. So no point in giving wrong signals.

syria is up in flames, egypt remains tense, lebanon precarious, israel daily threatening to strike iran... mea better have a pov on this...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Feb 2012 02:33

Budget 2012: Cash-strapped govt to cut defence spending?

NEW DELHI: Faced with deteriorating finances, the government has decided on an unusual step: cutting the defence budget for this year.

According to sources, the Centre has proposed a cut of "a few thousand crores" in the defence budget for 2011-12. The Centre has never cut budget allocation for the military in recent years, even though the defence ministry has surrendered unspent money to the government several times in the past.

Sources said the "reluctant" move was prompted by acute fiscal distress, thanks to a huge shortfall in tax collection and disinvestment, as well as miscalculation of subsidies.

It is the first time in recent memory that the government is cutting the defence budget in the middle of a financial year. Last financial year, 2010-11, the ministry had overshot the budget by Rs 4,237.69 crore. In the years before that, the ministry had on several occasions surrendered capital budget allocations, failing to spend them in time. But never has the government introduced a budget cut before the financial year is over.

The government's decision is unusual for many reasons. One, the defence budget for 2011-12 was only 8.47% over the previous year because the revised budget had overshot the allocation. Second, the ministry is in the final stages of several contract negotiations.
Accordingly, sources said the government would proceed cautiously in approving new defence contracts in the current financial year, ending March 31. "We are not stalling modernization, we are going ahead with all contracts as planned," an official said. However, he admitted that the proposed cut in defence budget could mean at least a few purchases may have to be delayed to the next financial year starting on April 1.

The last quarter of the financial year is usually the busiest season for the defence ministry in terms of purchases. A large number of contracts are cleared in the final quarter. However, the "saving grace" is that this year, the ministry had already committed a significant portion of the capital budget meant for new purchases in the first three quarters, another source said.

The defence budget for 2011-12 presented in Parliament on February 28 last year was Rs 1.64 lakh crore. It was believed that the allocation was a sign of the government's efforts to insulate defence modernization from steps for fiscal austerity. The capital budget was Rs 69,199 crore, meant for new purchases. It is from this capital allocation that the government will be cutting a few thousand crores.

The unusual move to cut the defence budget, which will be reflected in the papers to be tabled in Parliament in the coming budget session starting on March 12, is reflective of the larger fiscal problems facing the government.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 29 Feb 2012 04:37

This has been the thinking this year. The State Bank of India Chairman mentioned this thinking prevailing in the Govt a week back. He said " there could be some savings in the defense expenditure because the external environment today is less intimidating".

How its less intimidating, I can't understand

.

There was also another news report by Moneycontrol :

Defence: In order to modernize and strengthen the armed forces, India's defence budget for FY13 is likely to touch Rs. 2,00,000 crore as against Rs. 1,64,415 crore, which was 2.5% of the GDP for FY12. The defence budget for FY12 had seen a 11.6% hike and if the trends and the need of the Armed Forces is to continue in FY13, as there is need to modernise against the background of political developments across our borders.

Govt today is unable to even pay for Bank recapitalization, it has asked LIC to step in and buy shares worth 300-400 crores in PSU banks. With the fiscal deficit rising, I don't see 200k figure reached anytime soon.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 29 Feb 2012 04:50

Misraji wrote: Must we see controversy in everything??
Shouldn't the MEA/MOD have a say in issues related to representing a country? ...

--Ashish

Ashish ji,

I agree - Its governments prerogative to formulate the FP. My comment was based on the news I quoted from NDTV, which suggests that it was a direct consequence of the Chief going to the court.

If it was Iran Israel tensions ( as Ramana ji suggested ), I respect the decision.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 29 Feb 2012 12:04

Indian Army chief's Israel visit postponed

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Feb 2012 14:36

Arun Roperia wrote: My comment was based on the news I quoted from NDTV, which suggests that it was a direct consequence of the Chief going to the court.

If it was Iran Israel tensions ( as Ramana ji suggested ), I respect the decision.

In defence of Arun Roperia, I must add that not only NDTV, but ALL media outlets have portrayed a last minute change as being linked to the age issue. A web search will validate my statement.

Also the fact that the very next day (i.e. today) the news break that the Govt has served retirement notice to Gen VKS does lend further credence to the media view of GoI vindictiveness and not that it is merely DDM interpretation.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 29 Feb 2012 15:07

Also the fact that the very next day (i.e. today) the news break that the Govt has served retirement notice to Gen VKS does lend further credence to the media view of GoI vindictiveness and not that it is merely DDM interpretation.

Sanku : You might be right; we dont know enough either way.

What I find intriguing though is that the Gen and his secretariat are choosing to go to countries where a visit at this point in time might be considered contentious. I mean why schedule a visit to Israel at a time of rising tensions in the ME, or go to the UK at a time when the Brit cabinet and the press is inflamed with the MMRCA decision? There are lots of countries with which India has close or developing defence ties; why not choose to go to those?

I cant imagine the Chief's secretariat is totally innocent of geo-political goings on. A little finesse might sometimes help.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Feb 2012 15:15

Avik wrote: What I find intriguing though is that the Gen and his secretariat are choosing to go to countries where a visit at this point in time might be considered contentious.

It was scheduled with acceptance of the related parts of GoI such as Ext Aff Min 6 weeks back. The cancellation was the one at last moment. So it does not appear that Geo-pol had any role in the same.

Assuming it had Geo-pol reasons, frankly not going to Israel because it may be contentious seems to me to be a way of avoiding responsibility. The Chief does not go to Israel or a junket or a Ext Aff mission, he goes for nuts and bolts level integration between the parts of Israeli establishment and Indian ones.

This is not tact, this is being squeamish.

Anyway geo-pol seems unlikely, there are sudden changes of heart in EAM? Naah.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 29 Feb 2012 15:19

^^It appears as if the decision to go to a particular country for official visit at a particular time is at the Chief's discretion. It is not so.
The visits are planned(initial) at least one financial year ahead after which the ball is set rolling from the concerned Service HQ for approval of GoI. Usually it takes three to four months for the approval of a service person's visit abroad, as it involves many agencies including sponsoring dept, MI, MoD, MoEA, MoF, etc. In this scenario what Avik says would not be correct.

Yes, any of the agencies involved in approving the Chief's visit would have a say in re-scheduling the visit due to change in circumstances. That may be the case here.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Feb 2012 15:33

nelson wrote:^^It appears as if the decision to go to a particular country for official visit at a particular time is at the Chief's discretion. It is not so.
........
Yes, any of the agencies involved in approving the Chief's visit would have a say in re-scheduling the visit due to change in circumstances. That may be the case here.

Quite so, and the reason the view that this is vindictiveness is doing rounds is that no fundamental change has happened in the Geo-pol situation between the time that all parts of GoI were ok with the visit and now suddenly some of them are not.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Feb 2012 15:55

Sid wrote:Lot of soldiers can be saved if such inflatable jackets can be supplied to soldiers who are stationed in such dangerous posts.

SASE has already declared the warning before the first avalanche. Folks don't always take warning. They don't wear equipment. They don't follow SOP.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Feb 2012 16:57

Badami Bagh Cantonment declared as ‘Plastic Free Zone’

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 29 Feb 2012 17:45

chackojoseph wrote:
Sid wrote:Lot of soldiers can be saved if such inflatable jackets can be supplied to soldiers who are stationed in such dangerous posts.
SASE has already declared the warning before the first avalanche. Folks don't always take warning. They don't wear equipment. They don't follow SOP.

I know SASE warnings would be much like Indian Meteorological Department's warning of cyclones crossing TN coast or at least better than IB's warning of next terror attack. Very general and CYA only.

If the SASE have issued any specifics like in terms of proximity in place of within X km^2 or proximity in time say next six hours, please let me know.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Feb 2012 18:34

nelson wrote:I know SASE warnings would be much like Indian Meteorological Department's warning of cyclones crossing TN coast or at least better than IB's warning of next terror attack. Very general and CYA only.

If the SASE have issued any specifics like in terms of proximity in place of within X km^2 or proximity in time say next six hours, please let me know.

see. They had issued warning daily for past 14 days prior to the avalanche at 6K + height. I don wanna BS, but, I believe that the 14 days were high intensive warnings. it was not a general weather bureau warning. It was based on the condition. The awareness and precautions should have been at peak. it was even on state broadcasting system.

Added later....................

It was srt of hurricane hitting coast aprox on sat/sun, at xyx coast type warning. Normally state govt's evacuate people on such warnings. just an example. Don't go deeper. Just to make some understanding.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Feb 2012 18:52

One more Q. Show me a statement by Army Chief on the avalanche deaths.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 29 Feb 2012 19:38

On cancellation of VKS visit to Israel

I would have thought more along the lines of the recent Iran-Israeli street fights that have been going on, that India might have wanted to maintain neutrality, or not be seen to be a part of it, in case, there is some Israeli action in the coming days.

(India is supposedly dithering in confronting Iran on the recent episode in Delhi, per these media outlets)

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 29 Feb 2012 20:28

Assuming it had Geo-pol reasons, frankly not going to Israel because it may be contentious seems to me to be a way of avoiding responsibility. The Chief does not go to Israel or a junket or a Ext Aff mission, he goes for nuts and bolts level integration between the parts of Israeli establishment and Indian ones.

If the Indian COAS is traveling to a country, there is a fairly strong signaling intent. Not accepting this is just deluding oneself. As far as nuts and bolts stuff is concerned, its best left to staff officers to thrash out, rather than Army Chiefs to roll up their sleeves for.

Finally, if the official Indian Govt. policy is to maintain neutrality in matters involving third countries, then it incumbent upon the CoAS to adhere to that. There is nothing squeamish about adhering to official policy.

The visits are planned(initial) at least one financial year ahead after which the ball is set rolling from the concerned Service HQ for approval of GoI. Usually it takes three to four months for the approval of a service person's visit abroad, as it involves many agencies including sponsoring dept, MI, MoD, MoEA, MoF, etc. In this scenario what Avik says would not be correct.

Sir, you are characterizing my comments wrongly. I did not say that the CoAS is visiting countries on the spur of the moment. All I'm saying is that even if a visit is long scheduled, if the situation so develops, there is no harm in rescheduling the visit.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 29 Feb 2012 20:32

chackojoseph wrote:
nelson wrote:I know SASE warnings would be much like Indian Meteorological Department's warning of cyclones crossing TN coast or at least better than IB's warning of next terror attack. Very general and CYA only.

If the SASE have issued any specifics like in terms of proximity in place of within X km^2 or proximity in time say next six hours, please let me know.
see. They had issued warning daily for past 14 days prior to the avalanche at 6K + height. I don wanna BS, but, I believe that the 14 days were high intensive warnings. it was not a general weather bureau warning. It was based on the condition. The awareness and precautions should have been at peak. it was even on state broadcasting system.
...<snip>

Exactly my point. I appreciate the efforts of SASE. I am only saying that they are inadequate. Warnings issued daily, for weeks together, and over an area 'at altitude above 6000 ft' where the entire sector is above that altitude constitutes, no warning at all. There is little strength in laying the blame on 'folks not following SOP'.

I would expect the premier and only agency in the country for the said purpose, SASE, to provide better information to the military users atleast.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Feb 2012 20:56

Avik wrote:
Assuming it had Geo-pol reasons, frankly not going to Israel because it may be contentious seems to me to be a way of avoiding responsibility. The Chief does not go to Israel or a junket or a Ext Aff mission, he goes for nuts and bolts level integration between the parts of Israeli establishment and Indian ones.
If the Indian COAS is traveling to a country, there is a fairly strong signaling intent. Not accepting this is just deluding oneself. As far as nuts and bolts stuff is concerned, its best left to staff officers to thrash out, rather than Army Chiefs to roll up their sleeves for.

Avik-ji; it appears that you wish to characterize those who do not share your view as delusional. Well that is certainly your choice.

I would only say that, a long planned trip, being executed as planned, signals nothing. What was it not signaling 6 weeks back that it is doing now?

BTW CAS does not go to set policy, or diplomatic missions. He goes for specific tasks and particular implementation agenda.

Finally, if the official Indian Govt. policy is to maintain neutrality in matters involving third countries, then it incumbent upon the CoAS to adhere to that. There is nothing squeamish about adhering to official policy.

No there is nothing about squeamish about adhering to official policy, however policy formulation itself can be squeamish or not squeamish.

Not taking care of your interests is being squeamish, I would say that India should not change its interactions with Israel anymore than it should change its interactions with Iran.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Feb 2012 21:04

nelson wrote:Exactly my point. I appreciate the efforts of SASE. I am only saying that they are inadequate. Warnings issued daily, for weeks together, and over an area 'at altitude above 6000 ft' where the entire sector is above that altitude constitutes, no warning at all. There is little strength in laying the blame on 'folks not following SOP'.

I would expect the premier and only agency in the country for the said purpose, SASE, to provide better information to the military users atleast.

You didn't read my last sentence. They should have evacuated or other measures. It was pin point as much for the area. SASE has a network of 29 weather stations, INSAT etc up those areas. IMO, the exact spot cannot be ascertained.

Anyway, this is a fruitless discussion.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Feb 2012 23:38

chackojoseph wrote:One more Q. Show me a statement by Army Chief on the avalanche deaths.

And the point being?