Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 31 Mar 2015 03:53

http://www.desicontrarian.com/?p=380

“FALSE GOD” IS MY “N” WORD! BlTCH!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Mar 2015 04:04

Missionary visa is the gift of Chacha , AFAIK.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Mar 2015 06:36

Something to ruminate on!

Pentecostals, Proselytization, and Anti-Christian Violence in Contemporary India by Chad M. Bauman
English | 2015 | ISBN: 0190202092, 0190202106 | 224 pages |

Every year, there are several hundred attacks on India's Christians. These attacks are carried out by violent anti-minority activists, many of them provoked by what they perceive to be a Christian propensity for aggressive proselytization, or by rumored or real conversions to the faith. Pentecostals are disproportionately targeted.

Drawing on extensive interviews, ethnographic work, and a vast scholarly literature on interreligious violence, Hindu nationalism, and Christianity in India, Chad Bauman examines this phenomenon. While some of the factors in the targeting of Pentecostals are obvious and expected-their relatively greater evangelical assertiveness, for instance-other significant factors are less acknowledged and more surprising: marginalization of Pentecostals by "mainstream" Christians, the social location of Pentecostal Christians, and transnational flows of missionary personnel, theories, and funds. A detailed analysis of Indian Christian history, contemporary Indian politics, Indian social and cultural characteristics, and Pentecostal belief and practice, this volume sheds important light on a troubling fact of contemporary Indian life.

IOW its the aggressive conversion by Pentecostals who don't have backing of the other earlier converts is a factor per this author.

However Christianity in India is more ancient than any recent Pentecostal born again zealots.

It would behoove of the Pentecostals if they found Jesus in USA. So much rampant unJesus things are going on in US.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 31 Mar 2015 07:12

Recently met a zealot returned from spreading the good word among Ulan Batori's camels. I fear he must have picked up their odour. A semi- literate, obese, shaggy man with dirt under his fingernails and a stench that nearly made me gag.

Yet when these harvesters of souls alight upon societies like India, they are transformed into the finest representatives of the first world conceivable by the sinners-doomed-to-hell-by-their-false-gods.

My word to think the North East is filled with people who are awed by his ilk-what level were they at before being uplifted by the word.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 31 Mar 2015 07:13

Whether we like it or not,ejs do touch the lives of Dalits.any day,they are closer to the spirit of yeshu bin pandhera,the social outcaste of Nazareth than the European colonialist churches like roman church or Anglican Church.
Krishna says people come to him for four reasons -a) if they are afflicted by sorrow b)if they need wealth c)if they are seekers of truth d) the jnani

Clearly yeshu bin pandhera cannot offer anything for the third class of devotee.
IMHO,we should accept social investment from ejs and ostracize xism as a mleccha cult.the cong did a good thing by allowing social investment.xism will survive if it has any intrinsic worth.it has had sufficient exposure to india by all counts.its time to cut off the pipeline.also earlier converts need not be glorified.they too are cultists as ribeiro,Thampu and innumerable others have shown themselves to be.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 31 Mar 2015 07:25

The geopolitical impact of Christianity & Evagelism comes in following areas

1- Create & preserve social fractures extending upto threatening territorial integrity of India

2- Create & maintain an internal pressure group on Hindu majority of India. This extends from socio-economic to political to spiritual realm. (Poverty industry, Reservations, Kudankulam, Temples, Dwaita state of consciousness)

3- Checkmating India's geopolitical potential from within (WKK industry, peace marches etc)

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 31 Mar 2015 09:22

ramana wrote:S
IOW its the aggressive conversion by Pentecostals who don't have backing of the other earlier converts is a factor per this author.

Among many christian denominations, Pentacostals and the Southern Baptist evangelicals fall into a different category than other christian denomination. Most groups of Christians have something called "Good works". i.e doing good works is part of their religion. Doing good works a way to please their god. Thats why Catholics do have lots of charity work..hospotal and schools etc..its all part of the "good works"

Pentacostals and the baptist evangelicals could care less about "Good works". They do not believe in good works. For them believing in Jesus is the only thing that matters...thats why these two groups are the most evil among christian groups. These are irrational mad people. They two groups even mock other christians who talk about "good works"

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 31 Mar 2015 09:29

Whatever the Church alleges happen in India also happens in USA. Only difference is the Church is really smart in handling this so their name does not come forward like RSS or BJP is blamed for what happens in India. Here is how Christians persecute minorities.

Poor Scientology followers. Theirs is not a religion because Christians says so

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Mar 2015 10:06

Manny wrote:Pentacostals and the baptist evangelicals could care less about "Good works". They do not believe in good works. For them believing in Jesus is the only thing that matters...thats why these two groups are the most evil among christian groups. These are irrational mad people. They two groups even mock other christians who talk about "good works"

What you specify is true of all Protestantism. Pentacostals and Baptists probably carry it to the extreme - but the underlying attitude of beleiving that Faith is the only recourse to God is applicable to all Protestants.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 31 Mar 2015 21:02

This is my first post in this thread. I have been following christian movements around india for sometime now.

You need to realize that a section of the population is intrinsically attracted to babas, devoutness and a culture of worship that resembles voodoo practice. Protestant christianity offers a lot of this.

Look at this way. We have a section of the population that is practically a nutcase. You have two options:

1) Tolerate them in hinduism and watch them crap it up with their "style of practice".
or
2) Tolerate them in christianity and let them do the same thing they do in hinduism.

Here is a googly for you all - they are not actually christians. or hindus.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 31 Mar 2015 22:09

"nvishal garu,

My response: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1821170

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 03 Apr 2015 20:43

http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Why ... dia/293895
"Why Christianity Failed In India".

Not sure I agree.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 03 Apr 2015 22:10

The problem I have with that Tony Joseph piece is that his argument is:

a) "christianity did not make any headway in many centuries, so how can it do so now, while at the same time handwaving about the amount of money that is being poured in to the proselytization effort in India. Past failures are not an indicator of present trends -- just because the churches were not well organized and well funded and singleminded in their approach to conversion, it does not mean that is true today. This point is being glossed over by Tony Joseph.

b) The bigger problem seems to be that the denigration of local cultures and religions by the new christian evangelists, that is rightly creating this tensions between the majority and the christians. This is again being underplayed by Tony Joseph.

The fast declining Christian population in the US today stands at 77 per cent, compared to the Hindu population in India of 78.3 per cent, which means both the UK and the US are less Christian nations today than India is Hindu, and they will be even less so in the future.

So the next time you see a Hindutva right-winger painting a scary picture of Christianity posing a growing, serious threat to Hinduism, you have to assume one of only two possibilities. One, he or she has not taken the slightest effort to know the facts, or two, he or she knows the facts, but doesn’t want them to get in the way of a good, well-running hate campaign.

The problem with this logic is that decrease in christians in the west, which is again, not true at all -- the widespread support for the christian right wing in the USA is a better indicator than Tony Joseph's proclamations, which he uses to tarnish anti-proselytization as a "hate campaign" against christians.

o historically, or even in a contemporary sense, it is highly inaccurate and facile to say that proselytisation and gaining new adherents is an idea foreign either to Indian-origin religions in general, or to Hinduism in particular.

The entire article actually defends proselytization and does the "the buddhists and hindus did it too, so why shouldn't christians" defense, which is not tenable, or at least, there is no reason for hindus to buy this nonsense from Indian christians. If the christians continue to proselytize by denigrating local cultures, there will be harmony between communities. If their religion is all that exceptional and awesome they would have no need to do such things.

c)

But there is another proxy indicator that one can use, to check how big a factor Rs 4,400 crore is in terms of the overall religious donations and spending in India. The country’s largest single temple trust had a revenue of Rs 2,262 crore last year, which is nearly twice the foreign donations received by the 10 biggest Christian and Christian-affiliated organisations in 2011-12.

This is another bogus argument, which pretends that temple trust funds are all used for hindu proselytization like the christian organization funds are -- it is not the size of the funds but how it is used. Granted, the temples could possibly to be using their funds for social good, if they are not doing so already, but they do not use any of these funds to preach hinduism, like the christian churches do with their funds.

d)

The problem with this argument is this: if the playing field is tilted in favour of Christianity, how is it that Christianity has been such a resounding demographic failure for over 2,000 years? Logically, there are only four possibilities: the playing field is not tilted as charged; the tilt is too minor to be of consequence; the tilt has no role to play in determining outcomes; one side is too weak in other, more important ways to take advantage of the tilt of the field.

First the question posited here is false: Christianity has NOT been a democraphic failure for the past 2000 years given that it is the majority religion in most countries in the world, the exceptions all located in one continent: Asia.

After asking this bogus question, the Tony Joseph conveniently proclaims "four possibilities and no more", when all of those four "choices" are just one choice, christians are currently too small in number for people to claim that the field is tilted in their favor. Before looking at that false claim, one can easily observe the kind of press the Indian christians were able to generate against the entire majority community by pretending that vandalism in a few of their churches was a sign of hindu bigotry against christianity -- doesn't that imply that christian community in India has the muscle far beyond their numbers to project a worldview that portrays them as a victim of harrassment, and all this even before and contrary to official police investigations into the matter. Not one word of apology has since been tendered by these christians for their offensive characterization of hindu bigotry against christianity as the cause for all the incidents of vandalism in churches, and crimes committed against church personnel.

1. "Playing field is not tilted as charged" -- False when taken in the global perspective. If the playing field is not tilted in India, that is only because christianity is not the majority religion in India. It is pretty tilted in most parts of the world we consider the number of excplicitly christian countries today, that all became christian as part of the violent spanish inquisition and later conquests. Or even otherwise, countries like the US and many in Europe tacitly consider christianity to be the official religion while pretending to a non-religious -- if that were not the case, most of the laws concerning anti-abortion and other christian beliefs would not be encoded in law in these countries.
2. "; the tilt has no role to play in determining outcomes; one side is too weak in other, more important ways to take advantage of the tilt of the field.": these are just variations of 1., where the main argument is that (a) the advantages are not tilted in favor of the christian minority (b) even if there was such an advantage arising from foreign funding, they are not relevant (c) there can be no such advantage because the number of christians are too few (d) "more important ways of taking advantage of tilts of the field"

The reality today is that christian educational institutions that live off public funding can deny admission to non christians and the govt. cannot take them to task for this kind of discrimination simply because of the christian minority's influence in creating a storm in a teacup with the help of foreign missions and christian organizations worldwide that are adept at disseminating slander against anyone who speaks about such things...almost in the same mould as people being accused of islamophobia when they raise the subject of islamic bigotry.

mraghu · Post by **mraghu** » 04 Apr 2015 08:32

In this article http://johndayal.com/thomas-christians- ... hristians/ the christian population is close to 70M in India

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Apr 2015 13:35

Christist Judge of our Supreme Court and self-described “Guardian of Indian secularism” injects religion into conference scheduling. Justice Kurien Joseph complains to our Prime Minister about Chief Justice of India H.L. Dattu holding a conference on the Christist occasion of “good friday”

.

CJI "insisting it was not the first time the conference was held on a public holiday. He cited numerous precedents in support of his decision and said it was to avoid disruption of normal working days. He also said institutional interests were paramount" was not enough to mollify Justice Kurien Joseph's secular inclinations about not working on a Christist religious holiday:

Miffed over CJI holding conference on Good Friday, SC judge writes to Modi

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 04 Apr 2015 13:40

arun wrote:Christist Judge of our Supreme Court and self-described “Guardian of Indian secularism” injects religion into conference scheduling. Justice Kurien Joseph complains to our Prime Minister about Chief Justice of India holding a conference on the Christist occasion of “good friday” .

CJI "insisting it was not the first time the conference was held on a public holiday. He cited numerous precedents in support of his decision and said it was to avoid disruption of normal working days. He also said institutional interests were paramount" was not enough to mollify Justice Kurien Joseph:

Miffed over CJI holding conference on Good Friday, SC judge writes to Modi

There is some diktat from high above. All the top level Christian officials are wearing their religion on their sleeves. Seems unprecedented to me. Appears to me, India may soon be entering Lebanon phase.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 04 Apr 2015 14:21

There is a concerted effort from Church to oppose India and Indians. Particularly NM. This effort seems to be a long thought out plan after Sonia's fall from power. I think they waited till all the Delhi courtiers feel the NM rule and realize that their days of loot are over. Now the looters joined the Church actively. First role played in Delhi elections. Now it will be a template. There may not be much of the Church followers in Bihar etc. But the repeated reports etc will ensure peaceful vote and vote actively against NM. It will also prevent any "sicular" parties to have any kind of deal with NM and BJP.

All the people whom Indics thought as good people and given respect are now showing their colors. J.Robero is one of the example. Long back when vote for cash scam came, one BJP MP from Karnataka (is it Saladana) voted as per the advise of the Church. I personally know at least one Bank ED getting appointed by sonia gang as per the recommendation of Bishop of Mumbai.

Admiral Sushil somehow makes a statement that we are introducing religion into Army etc. We never even aware of such allegations before that. He never goes into any specifics. It is as if someone wrote and gave him want to say. Not surprisingly his kind never even tried to open their mouth when Sachar Committee asked for religious details from Armed forces.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 04 Apr 2015 17:48

Former SC Judge K T Thomas is forthright

Jesus will bless those who work: Former judge

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150404/j ... #pq=5bUQoR

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Apr 2015 18:05

nvishalJi, you make a good point, after conversion, Indian Christians are no more enlightened. But massive demographic change will break India, as these converts, who converted in the first place after being lured by as you said vodoo and other material goodies; these coverts will make loyal sepoys for CIA through $ and other allurements. Thats the problem.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 04 Apr 2015 18:31

Gora Handler and his Indian sepoy - a tip of the Iceberg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM2HgTX0Cng

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 Apr 2015 19:40

Ashish Nandy:
http://scroll.in/article/718353/Ashish- ... conversion

The RSS is basically a western, colonial implant in India. The RSS categories are all European, beginning from Savarkar’s Hindutva, which is a perfectly European concept of the theory of state. That concept is one state, one culture, one nationality and nationalism – and the state the Hindutvavadis have in mind is a modern Westphalian European state.

To understand Savarkar’s worldview, people should read his futuristic novel, Kalapani, which is a rather silly description of an ideal Hindutva-based state – totally monolithic, terribly boring national community. In this community, according to Savarkar’s imagination, everybody speaks the same language, everybody is marrying inter-caste, so on and so forth. Fortunately, he doesn’t include the Christians and Muslims in this community and they should be grateful to him for that. I’d die of boredom living in a state like that.

Earlier, most Indians would have agreed with me. But it now seems there is a small group of young people, particularly NRIs in India, who, because they feel guilty about ditching India, have become very articulate in this matter. They shout themselves hoarse about the beauties of one state, one culture, one nation.

What are your reasons for opposing conversion?

First of all, I don’t believe in hierarchy of faiths. You can’t create a hierarchy of spiritual traditions. You can’t even say your spiritual tradition is superior on the claims that yours is more tolerant than other traditions, like many Hindus have begun to do now. They say they have always believed in diversity, that all religions are paths to the same end, but also add in the same breath that they are more tolerant than others – and, therefore, they are better. I think Buddhism have as much claim to tolerance as Hinduism. This is also true of Jainism. I don’t think there is any record of Jains being intolerant of others. I am not a believer and, therefore, I don’t have to subscribe to the idea that salvation comes through only one faith.

But would you still have the right to preach and propagate one’s religion as one of the fundamental rights guaranteed to the country’s citizens?

Yes, I will, because everyone preaches anyway. Even those who say they don’t do so. Some don’t convert, yes, but they don’t shout about it from the hilltop. For instance, Parsis have a clear-cut definition who isn’t a Parsi and who isn’t.

Will you like some restrictions to be imposed on conversion?

Gandhi said, God comes to the poor in the form of bread. When a poor person takes money to convert, then, by that definition, one can say that he comes closer to God through conversion. This is my belief as a nonbeliever. However, as a nonbeliever, conversion doesn’t make a straw of difference to me. I am respectful to religion. I don’t believe in secularism because I think it is an ideology, a faith, like religion. That is a simple argument. I have offered more serious arguments in my writings and I don’t want to repeat them here. I have written against secularism because it is insensitive to what religions do or don’t do. It is theoretically and philosophically flawed. Secularism sets up a new hierarchy, where the poor man’s tolerance is not called secularism, but the modern Westernised Indian’s tolerance is labelled secularism, a term which most Indians don’t even understand. Only 2.5% Indians know English, and out of this probably only 1% can spell the word secularism. Secularism as a concept has emerged from the European Enlightenment and invokes a secularised, de-mystified or de-magicalised world.

India is a country of communities, so we must learn to respect one’s own community as well as those of others. This is good enough. All those personalities in history who are described as secular had never heard of the word secular. Ashoka was a Buddhist and that is why he respected other faiths. So is the case of Akbar too. He was a believer and his tolerance of other faiths came from Islam. I respect those principles with which ordinary people have lived over for centuries. They didn’t need to be taught to secularism. Our intellectuals have been too idle to find out the appropriate terms and the language used by the likes Nanak, Kabir and Lalan and use them.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 04 Apr 2015 21:33

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Apr 2015 07:57

This paper (PDF) applies a game-theory/economic model to explain strategy & counter-strategy of proselytization.
http://www.thearda.com/asrec/archive/pa ... lytism.pdf

It is a little difficult for me to follow.

This paper addresses two major puzzles of religious history. Around the end of the first century of the Common Era the Jews ceased proselytizing among Gentiles and left the field free to the Christians’ competition. Yet the destruction of the Second Temple in CE 70 arguably lowered the cost of, and provided added incentive to, the Jews’ mission to the Gentiles. Why did the rabbis give up? At the end of the religious wars sparked by the Protestant Reformation, the Treaty of Westphalia (1648) set the religious borders of Europe in stone. Yet the Catholic Church continued the huge reform effort in its domains that had begun as a reaction to the Reformation. Why bother? This paper sets forth an economic theory of competition between exclusive religions and applies it to the solution of these puzzles.

Is there anything in this paper which would give insights into the proselytism problem in India?
Thanks in advance!

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Apr 2015 08:31

Chidanand Rajghatta in Times of India on Christist hyperventilation about Yoga in the US.

In order to assuage Christist hypersensitivity, Padmasana goes to being called ''criss cross apple sauce''

. Apparently translating Padmasana into English and getting called “lotus pose” was deemed not good enough to assuage the hypersensitivity of adherents of Christism.

Pretty hypocritical when one thinks that adherents of Christism, no doubt tantalized by prospect of religious conversion dividends, opposed ban of the use of the term “Allah” to describe the Christist God imposed by fellow Abrahamic Mohammaddens in Malaysia (Malaysia Allah dispute: Top court rejects challenge):

Link for the TOI Article :

Yoga classes are secular, says US court

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2015 09:50

Now Canadians are reconstructing Theresa.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Apr 2015 10:26

I am currently reading Jared Diamond's "Collapse". Although I do not fully subscribe to his theories, here is an excerpt of how Norther Atlantic Island nations ruled by pagan Vikings were Christianized:

Chiefs and kings in Scandinavia began to recognize the political advantages that Christianity could bring them <snip snip> When Norway began to convert, the overseas Viking colonies of Orkney, Shetland, Faroe, Iceland and Greenland followed suit . That was partly because the colonies had few ships of their own, depended on Norwegian shipping for trade, and had to recognize the impossibility of remaining pagan after Norway became christian. For instance, when Norway's king Olaf I converted he banned pagan Icelanders from trading with Norway, captured Icelanders visiting Norway (including relatives of leading Iceland pagans) and threatened to mutilate or kill those hostages unless Iceland renounced paganism

This was around AD 1000. Christianity and Islam were doing exactly the same things in different parts of the world. Islam was paying boty to the Caliph. Christians were paying booty to Rome . India pays booty to both.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 05 Apr 2015 11:14

CRamS wrote:nvishalJi, you make a good point, after conversion, Indian Christians are no more enlightened. But massive demographic change will break India, as these converts, who converted in the first place after being lured by as you said vodoo and other material goodies; these coverts will make loyal sepoys for CIA through $ and other allurements. Thats the problem.

It has happened before in ancient india when the vedas were ignored by followers of buddha. It changed the demography of india. It didn't last.

You need to understand that if it isn't buddhism then it was islam and it isn't islam then it will be christianity and so on and so forth.

All of them have one thing in common - they have to push the political establishment to command the hindus(police, indian army etc) to provide security to them, whether it is in the middle-east(syria, yemen) or on the indian sub-continent.

They are not christians or muslims. They are actually political christians and muslims. The prospect of protection(and funding) from the west and middle-east is attractive to them.

Without money(funding) and security(majority dying for minority), the incentive to conversion is lost. Most hindus have got it wrong. They are trying ghar wapsi. Their objective was to attract attention from hindus and they have got it. The idea is to realize that a section of the population will keep swinging for its own purpose regardless of ghar wapsi type shenanigans. Don't be a hero.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 05 Apr 2015 15:57

Even today in villages,dalits are not part of the village communities and have separate temples for themselves.The dalits do not participate in festivals of caste hindus.

The EJs are reaching out to the weakest.'We' may not subscribe to the claims about yeshu.We might not be impressed by the sincerity of their empathy for dalits given their record with brown,black,yellow and Native American people.We may not be impressed by their 'book',or their understanding of karma,bhakthi,jnana,saranagathi,purva-punar janma-s etc.Its also true 99% of 'them' are rice christians.Yet,this is age of 'freedom' and 'democracy'.Can we deny the choice to dalits?

Also,is it not true that Anglican/roman church are far more dangerous given their imperial connections,vast land holdings,control of educational institutions(school,college,medical colleges) endowed during colonial rule?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Apr 2015 16:04

^^^ Self-goal!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Apr 2015 16:19

svenkat wrote:Can we deny the choice to dalits?

Given that there are no Dalits in Christianity and all are equal, the status of "dalit" and the educational and land rights for those who choose Christianity (because we cannot deny them the choice) should be forfeited in favor of millions of Dalits and even poverty stricken forward caste people to get those benefits that only Hindus can give to other Hindus.

Conversion out of Hindu status into one of the egalitarian religions that have never discriminated like the evil Hindus should mean automatic emancipation and salvation without human interference like Dalit land rights, caste certificates and educational and other job opportunities. The choice should be fair to all. You cannot claim caste based rights as a Hindu and belong to a faith that has no caste.

Dalits, meaning "crushed" is not a name that exists in Indian legal terms as far as I know. It is a quasi political term that seeks to shock and show how Hindu crush their own. The people are called SC or ST. Once conversion out of the Hindu faith occurs there is no caste. That is the "choice" that is offered to people who convert, after all. No?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Apr 2015 16:40

IMO, this article shows what undrlies the bringing of The Good News to India. In a sense, nothing has changed in 200 years.

http://www.hipkapi.com/2015/04/04/rape- ... de-roover/

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 06 Apr 2015 10:24

shiv wrote:
This was around AD 1000. Christianity and Islam were doing exactly the same things in different parts of the world. Islam was paying boty to the Caliph. Christians were paying booty to Rome . India pays booty to both.

Doctorji
Your post gives the impression that the followers of sweet lord Jesus Christ didn't have a lust for blood in recent times.
With both religions being born so close to each other, I doubt if their outlooks would be radically different.
The act of pleasing their gods by sacrificing, torturing and killing non-believers in the hope of prove their undying faith is common to both.

Himmler ( and the true blue soldiers of Christ ) called it "The Final Solution" (EndLoesung) . It was called the final solution because all earlier European solutions had somehow failed. But failed at what? They failed at coming at a solution to the "Jewish question". And the Jewish question itself is just a state of being a Jew. Yes...thats it...being a Jew...that was such a grave injustice & provocation to followers of Christ in Europe.
So the German Xtians were saying to the rest of Europe "Look you guys...you are p1ss poor at wiping out the Jews . We have come up with the best solution. The final solution"

I did some reading at it looks likeEngland led the initial efforts in making
Anti-Semitism really cool. The "Edict of Expulsion" is just a one of the initial European efforts to find a solution. Portugal, Spain and other countries too pitched in too with their own attempts.
BTW, the Magna Carta did NOT apply to the Jews.

During the latest Paris siege, I read reports that Jews have once again started to leave France is large numbers due to overt Anti-semitism in public places. Apparently, France even tried to prevent Netanyahu from coming to the peace march.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 06 Apr 2015 12:39

svenkat wrote:Even today in villages,dalits are not part of the village communities and have separate temples for themselves.The dalits do not participate in festivals of caste hindus.

Can we deny the choice to dalits?

Also,is it not true that Anglican/roman church are far more dangerous given their imperial connections,vast land holdings,control of educational institutions(school,college,medical colleges) endowed during colonial rule?

Seriously - how many Hindus are willing to proselytize? And to what?

This is a key question because, every religion and group has their own fallen or underserved people. However, this distinct narrative that Hindus and their caste system is an evil is a poison that has been imbibed by the educated Indian elite. I am not arguing for those who perpetuate real and perceived injustices on to the Dalit, but I do argue for Hindus, as it where, which includes Dalits.

The EJs are indeed probing for weakness, and in one way I welcome this, but they have found more than Dalits are susceptible to their charms. Their methods have been honed for at least two millennia. What methods do the Hindus have to counter this? What methods did the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Europeans, etc. have.. and what did their nation-states suffer - Rome is a great example, so are several others.

If all the Hindus can throw at this is 'ghar wapsi' and that we treat Dalits poorly in villages, what caste will they convert back into (NDTV harped on this for days!) - I dare say all is already lost. Instead of self-flagellation, what is required is learning what poison has been injected into our mind stream, it is imperative that we study EJs and their methods with great calm.

This is why BRF finally discussing the EJs and their geo-political reach is critical. This will be the greatest threat facing the Indian civilization in the medium run, taking it lightly one does at serious cost.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Apr 2015 17:04

Pulikeshi wrote:
The EJs are indeed probing for weakness, and in one way I welcome this, but they have found more than Dalits are susceptible to their charms. Their methods have been honed for at least two millennia. What methods do the Hindus have to counter this? What methods did the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Europeans, etc. have.. and what did their nation-states suffer - Rome is a great example, so are several others.

Christianity and Islam have been spread by violence where possible, and by provoking grievances leading up to violence. Ghar Wapsi is an interesting tactic - but violence is always the best method to preserve a faith. Only Hindus seem to believe that violence is not a good way and the minute a Hindu uses violent methods other Hindus come down on him like a ton of bricks "We are not supposed to be like that"

Really? Are Hindus not supposed to be "like that". There seems to be no problem in admitting that the "Blood of Martyrs is the seed of Christianity". Provoke and fight, create martyrs and fight for them. Proselytizing is the weak cop-out method used when the primary method, violence and coercion are unavailable, or when there exists and excess of the egalitarian peaceful over the pagans.

From a beautiful museum in Shillong

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Apr 2015 19:09

On BRF we have discussed from time to time the Christianization of South America by bestial violence. I have also mentioned the forcible Christianization of Lithuania, Iceland and Greenland.

Here is Wiki about the Romans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization

As Christianity spread, many of the ancient pagan temples were defiled, sacked, destroyed, or converted into Christian sites by such figures as Martin of Tours, and in the East often by militant monks. However, many temples remained open until Theodosius I's edict of Thessalonica in 380 made public expression of the ancient cults illegal, bringing ancient religious toleration formally to an end. Further laws were passed against remaining pagan practices over the course of the following years. Christianization of central Balkans is documented at the end of the 4th century, where Nicetas the Bishop of Remesiana brought the gospel to "those mountain wolves", the Bessi.

There appear to have been later attempts at a pagan revival, in 456 in circles surrounding the general Marcellinus and under Anthemius (r. 467-472), but these came to nothing. Marcian in 451 put the death penalty on the practice on pagan rites, and Leo I in 472 reinforced this by penalizing anyone who was aware that pagan rites were performed on his property.

The point being that when push comes to shove violence and punishment have always been part of Christianization. It is only Hindus who oppose violence in the imposition of faith and because Hindus oppose violence it is said that Hindus must not use violent means. But violent means have been part and parcel of Christianization wherever that has been convenient.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Apr 2015 22:17

And here, about the Greeks... This is a must read book. Must read twice

http://www.amazon.com/The-Passion-Greek ... 1593860390

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Apr 2015 23:18

Only Hindus seem to believe that violence is not a good way and the minute a Hindu uses violent methods other Hindus come down on him like a ton of bricks "We are not supposed to be like that"

Really? Are Hindus not supposed to be "like that". There seems to be no problem in admitting that the "Blood of Martyrs is the seed of Christianity". Provoke and fight, create martyrs and fight for them. Proselytizing is the weak cop-out method used when the primary method, violence and coercion are unavailable, or when there exists and excess of the egalitarian peaceful over the pagans.

Well, if you want the power&violence thing, given a choice between the originals and a recent wanna-be, what would you choose?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Apr 2015 23:20

shiv wrote: The point being that when push comes to shove violence and punishment have always been part of Christianization. It is only Hindus who oppose violence in the imposition of faith and because Hindus oppose violence it is said that Hindus must not use violent means. But violent means have been part and parcel of Christianization wherever that has been convenient.

Yes, and so? If people are not aware, then this is useful. Otherwise not sure what the point is that you are making. Just like with modernization, "we" do not have to become "them" in order to be strong or in order to prevail.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Apr 2015 23:25

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote: The point being that when push comes to shove violence and punishment have always been part of Christianization. It is only Hindus who oppose violence in the imposition of faith and because Hindus oppose violence it is said that Hindus must not use violent means. But violent means have been part and parcel of Christianization wherever that has been convenient.
Yes, and so? If people are not aware, then this is useful. Otherwise not sure what the point is that you are making. Just like with modernization, "we" do not have to become "them" in order to be strong or in order to prevail.

What is your prescription to be "Strong" when faced with Islamist/Evangelic hordes in a secular society like India?

I am not talking about external enemies but internal "radicalized" Muslims and Christians.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 06 Apr 2015 23:42

RELIGIOUS APARTHEID – MODERN DAY BIGOTRY!

http://www.desicontrarian.com/?p=615

None of the christian majority country in the world has a national holiday for non christianity..Not one. Not in the US, not in the UK, none of the European countries, Not Australia… Not even the alleged liberal country of Canada. No nationwide holiday for Eid, the most important holiday for the world second largest religion of Islam. Not a single holiday for the third largest religion of Hinduism anywhere in the christian majority country. No Holidays for Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Parsies.. Nada..None! Christianity is the only religion that is recognized nationwide in all these supposedly “Egalitarian” countries.