IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jun 2015 11:38

I think that is correct. The Raffy would be a better N-delivery platform. However,the lack of a genuine strat. bomber is worrying.i do not know why the IAF is loathe to acquire a genuine bomber like a Backfire,or even an SU-34. If we have to hit China,we have to do it deep and refueling always carries a risk with it. Pak can be easily reached by our Agni series of missiles and Pragati/Prahaar as well. If Prithvi is being pensioned off as hinted,then we must obviously have something better! Proithvi missiles can be then be reconditioned and sold to pals like Vietnam,etc.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Jun 2015 11:49

Can Baloch steal some of our reduced range Prithvi with N payload and use it inside Bakistan like there is a threat of Jehadis stealing nukes and using it against India providing deniability to Pak State actors??

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jun 2015 12:14

No loose nuke of Indian design & manufature ever. If the Balouch need a nuke. They can "buy" it from same source, that the ISIS will "buy".

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Jun 2015 12:19

I don't see why. We too can loose some nukes which could be designed to function differently. Our security is also lax and not world class.

.As long as game is up and Bakis know it could happen the same way... it doesn't matter if baloch actually get and lob one to Rawalpindi from which source. Mere floating of possibility is enough.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 01 Jun 2015 12:24

Might want to consider this story:
http://www.uniindia.com/news/national/i ... 76471.html

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 01 Jun 2015 18:00

For USD 7200 million we can have 7000+ nuke missiles. Why do we need Refails?

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Jun 2015 18:09

Why not give all the Rafales to the Navy ..the might do a better job for power projection

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jun 2015 18:10

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 494612.cms

NEW DELHI: India is unlikely to buy more than 36 French Rafale fighters as of now, less than one-third of the 126 jets that were envisaged under the now-scrapped $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project.

But another 20 Rafale jets might be procured at a later stage to make a total of three squadrons, much like what was done in the acquisition of Mirage-2000s from France in the mid-1980s.

Let the complaining commence.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Jun 2015 19:07

"The direct acquisition of 36 Rafales is based on the IAF's critical operational requirement. What is the final offer at the end of the discussions, it will be considered then. I will not like to comment at this stage... let the discussions come to some conclusion," - Manohar Parrikar

I have a feeling the MoD will balk at the $8bn tag on the package (as will the MoF when its turn arrives). Lets see though.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jun 2015 19:08

Gyan wrote:For USD 7200 million we can have 7000+ nuke missiles. Why do we need Refails?

You have a point there. I think SFC is not keen upon aircraft at all. The ex head says as much, noting that each strategic mission took up at least 10 aircraft and these missions would play havoc with conventional war efforts.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Jun 2015 19:18

France was rewarded for its support in supplying Nuclear fuel to tarapur when USA ditched India. Rafale deal is also having some such quid quo pro. I think rather than going for any tom dick and harry aircrafts better to go with a proven friends even if we have to junk the MMRCA deal.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jun 2015 19:24

Chaanakya, you nailed it.

We only have two options in that case, France and Russia.
Rafales work, advanced MiG-29s are unproven (and judging by our MiG-29K, will take eons to fix).
Best to go with Rafales. QED.. basically fait accompli for NaMo and Parrikar.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2015 20:15

Karan M wrote:
Gyan wrote:For USD 7200 million we can have 7000+ nuke missiles. Why do we need Refails?
You have a point there. I think SFC is not keen upon aircraft at all. The ex head says as much, noting that each strategic mission took up at least 10 aircraft and these missions would play havoc with conventional war efforts.

SFC having a/c only makes sense if we have big long range bombers...and even these are tasked mostly as bomb trucks and PGM delivery these days. the days of squadrons of B52 and B36 constantly in the air with nuclear weapons are long gone.....

we do not need SFC a/c vs TSP and the prime chinese targets are way far out of range for anything but the blackjack. we cannot hope to run a strategic mission with multiple refuelings over chinese airspace.

may have made sense in mid 90s when we only had prithvi, but not now.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 01 Jun 2015 21:59

Singha wrote: may have made sense in mid 90s when we only had prithvi, but not now.

Beg to differ.

Aircraft give a nation's nuclear weapons an active choice which may be changed while the weapon is on its way to be delivered.

You can tell a nuclear tipped Brahmos carrying Rafale, to turn back and not bomb Chengdu, because of some event which has happened suddenly, changing the decision to nuke the city.

A ballistic missile would have to be destroyed in air, which is half a nuclear attack in its own right; or knocked off course or some such uncertain choice.

That's not as good as the decision making options that you get when you send an aircraft to nuke a place.

This reminds me of the last James Bond movie, Skyfall.

Bond is being given a gun and some bullets and some other equipment by a geek/nerd - Quartermaster.

Epic line - "Or NOT shoot, it's hard to know which, in your pyjamas"
Watch it all.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2015 22:06

given our launch on impact policy, there is no reason to develop dharmic arjunish thoughts after half the country is flattened by a enemy first strike.

deterrence is not about having a fickle mind...and in any case SFC cannot loft the kind of heavy anti city weapons that proper deterrence needs only A3 and A5 does that.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jun 2015 22:12

Singha agree. Basically ramp up A5 production and get MIRVs in fast.

Besides its not like one missile will do for one city now. We need to deliver a dozen missiles per each.

We dont have the ac fleet for 6-12 bombs per target.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jun 2015 22:20

mahadevbhu wrote:
Singha wrote: may have made sense in mid 90s when we only had prithvi, but not now.
Beg to differ.

Aircraft give a nation's nuclear weapons an active choice which may be changed while the weapon is on its way to be delivered.

You can tell a nuclear tipped Brahmos carrying Rafale, to turn back and not bomb Chengdu, because of some event which has happened suddenly, changing the decision to nuke the city.

A ballistic missile would have to be destroyed in air, which is half a nuclear attack in its own right; or knocked off course or some such uncertain choice.

That's not as good as the decision making options that you get when you send an aircraft to nuke a place.

Missiles wont be intercepted easily. Aircraft can be intercepted with much more probability. Big difference.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 02 Jun 2015 10:09

If we consider the support package required for aircraft strikes then for 36 Refail we can have 30,000 missiles

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jun 2015 13:23

krish.pf wrote:
NEW DELHI: Terming the UPA's proposed deal for 126 Rafale fighter jets as "economically unviable" and not required, Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has said the NDA government will buy only 36 of the French aircraft, to be used for strategic purposes, and no more.

Parrikar also raised questions on the tendering process initiated by former Defence minister AK Antony and said his predecessor had "hammered" the tender in such a way that the Rafale deal would have never seen the light of the day.

Rejecting criticism from the Congress that Prime Minister Narendra Modi had bypassed the Finance Ministry and the Defence Acquisition Council, the apex body of the Defence Ministry that takes the call on military projects, Parrikar said "the deal is yet to be inked" and they should hold their horses till the process was complete.

He expressed confidence that the Committee, that has been set up to work out the contract, would complete the task in the next 2-3 months.

The Modi government has scrapped the over USD 20 billion deal for 126 Rafales more than three years after Dassault was declared the lowest bidder under UPA's tenure.

During his visit to France last month, the Prime Minister announced the decision to buy 36 of these jets in a fly-away condition under a government-to-government (G2G) contract. Parrikar underlined that the decision to acquire 36 Rafales came in view of the "urgent requirement" of Indian Air Force.

"We are not buying the rest. We are only buying the direct 36," Parrikar told PTI when asked what will happen to rest of the requirement.

He said that the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.

The deal would have required around Rs 1.3 lakh crore over a period of 10-11 years, he added.

"Would there be any money for any other work?" he asked. "I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it. First I can't afford it and second I don't need it. So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required," Parrikar said.
The worst fears have come into fruition. What is the point of 36 fighters? Do these 'leaders' even have a brain.

And India is not some superpower to dedicate 36 perfectly tactical battlefield capable fighters(in some mythical SFC squadron) to be gathering dust in the hangars, till a need arises for them to perform a nuclear strike. These fighters will be used for all purposes in the IAF, and they will need maintenance like any other fighter. And because of their low numbers, the costs will be prohibitively high.

Thanks for dumbest decision yet in the history of the IAF, Modi. You will always be remembered for this stupidity.

36 fighters, as long as they have high availability rates, is still a decent number. How many Mirage-2000s do you think the IAF has operational at any given time? or MiG-29s? Heck, how many MiG-29Ks do you think the IN has? OR are they all operationally irrelevant? Far from "gathering dust in hangars" they will be used as the tip of the spear, with the Su-30MKI forming the bulwark.

You won't be able to base them all around, but you certainly can use them to take on high risk missions in conjunction with Su-30MKIs and other IAF fighters. Ambala suddenly doesn't sound like the best bet for the entire Rafale fleet to be based at. A large, well equipped airbase that affords more strategic space and allows the fleet to easily send out detachments to both eastern and western fronts is required.

And as Karan M has stated, there will definitely be follow on orders for at least 1 more squadron. that is how most large procurements have gone.

haryanvi · Post by **haryanvi** » 02 Jun 2015 14:12

IAF expresses discomfiture over the decision to limit Rafale purchase

36 Rafale not enough, IAF uneasy
Day after Parrikar said 126 jets ‘too many’, Air Force raises concern over depleting fleet
Ajay Banerjee

Tribune News Service

New Delhi, June 1
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar’s decision to buy only 36 Rafale fighter jets from France—instead of the initially proposed 126—has not found favour with the Indian Air Force, which feels the pared number would not be enough to meet its operational requirement.

The IAF brass has prepared a blueprint of its needs and plans to present it before the Defence Minister, who is expected to return to Delhi tomorrow.

Parrikar had, in an interview to a news agency yesterday, said buying 126 jets, as proposed by the previous UPA government, was “economically unviable”.

The IAF, said sources, would project its requirement before the minister and state that a “mere” 36 jets would not meet the shortfall occurring due to the phasing out of MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets by 2022.

The force had projected an immediate requirement of 126 Rafale-type medium multi-role combat aircraft, though it would need 400 jets over the next 10 years.

As of now, the IAF has 34 fighter jet squadrons (having 16-18 planes each) against its projected requirement of 42 squadrons to tackle any simultaneous war with China and Pakistan.

A mixed ancestry and level of technology marks the 640-odd fighter jet fleet, largely imported from Russia over the past 30 years. British and French companies have supplied about 150 planes.

The IAF is likely to raise two demands before Parrikar: Replacing the around 260 obsolete MiG-21s and MiG-27s (Soviet Union-era single-engine fighter jets) and adding 145-150 jets to have a fleet that is 42-squadron strong.

In October last year, IAF Chief Air Marshall Arup Raha had said, “We are left with quite a few with a majority of our fleet being in a phase-out mode. The drawdown has to be tackled by quick induction of medium multi-role and light combat aircraft.”

Speaking at the Aero-India Show in February, the Air Marshall had reiterated his demand saying: “We urgently need planes... may not necessarily be Rafales.”

Former IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshall (retd) PK Barbora said, “One of the options to meet the shortfall is through a tie-up with another country to produce next lot of light-combat aircraft, Tejas, and not wait for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or the Defence Research and Development Organisation to manufacture these.”

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 88331.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jun 2015 14:33

Another nation building Tejas? :rotfl:That takes the cake.What then happens to the make in India mantra? There is something wrong with the IAF top brass,to think that the GOI has money on tap to buy whatever it fancies,forgetting its own overall requirements and that of the other services too.

(I was reading a piece of info last night about the '71 war,which I never saw before,where ACM PC Lal ,in the presence of Gen.Manekshaw allegedly refused Adm. Nanda's pleadings to send just one sortie of aircraft to support the IN's planned strike on Karachi,saying that "it was too risky"! Manekshaw's pithy comment in Punjabi was the equiv of the famous one about the Light Brigade at Balaclava,"... ours but to do or die". Eventually and reluctantly,the IAF sent in 4 Hunters allegedly without bombs! The rest as they say is history.FM Manekshaw however in his post-war comments,did place on record that he never got full cooperation from the air chief.)

So now the IAF have suddenly come up with their own "Plan B",build the LCA abroad! Imagine the babus licking their chops at the wonderful opportunity of exercising the best of Indian administrative tradition for the first time exercising TOT in reverse! Those negotiations will surely take at least 3-4 years,by which time one or two chiefs would've come and gone and HAL's employees and top bosses receiving their salarium for sitting on their backsides doing nothing.

If this is the thinking in the minds of the IAF,then the mistrust between it and HAL over delivery of the LCA is as wide as the Cauvery. One cannot blame the IAF too much on this score given their exceptionally long wait for the LCA,IJT,BTT,etc., still waiting with empty hands.Surely it is past time for the GOI to step in and read out the riot act to HAL to get its act together or face severe penalties also affecting those top boffins and bosses responsible.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Jun 2015 15:13

Either something is systematically rotten in iaf or we are ourselves not getting something important.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2015 15:28

Ramana sir was right. short of firing a few senior people in the IAF and IA for incurring the displeasure of the chief executive(president), there is no hope for course correction.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jun 2015 16:28

How would firing solve any issue would that magically build up 10-12 ( 400 ) squadron that IAF plans to retire by 2025 or will that make HAL churn out 40 Tejas per year ?

These are institution and industrial problem spread across MOD+IAF+DRDO+HAL and would need decade and many years of persistant work to solve it , something DM or PM or firing people wont solve it

Uncertainty Prevails over Rafale Tender

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 844856.ece

Depleting combat strength of the Indian Air Force, has been a cause of concern for sometime now. As per estimation the IAF plans to retire four squadrons of MiG-21M, five squadrons of MiG-27M and one squadron of MiG-21bison aircraft in 2017, losing 10 squadrons in one year, severely shrinking its increasingly vintage fighter aircraft fleet

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 02 Jun 2015 16:36

It's not just the IAF/HAL but the Brits have a similar problem with BAE:

"The answer is, mostly, the British defence industry. Dominated by BAE Systems, our arms industry is lamentably inefficient. Its products are often horrifyingly expensive. They require parts and technical support not only from the US but other nations too – we gain no independence by purchasing “British-made” kit like the Eurofighter. (The Eurofighter cannot be sold without American permission as it is full of US technology.) If, instead, we simply bought off the shelf, mostly from America, we could easily afford powerful forces.

The second point about the EF caught my eye too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... itish.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2015 17:09

deft scaremongering as if 10 sqdns will suddenly retire one night instead of about 1 sqdn every year until 2025.

the solution is very clear and there is only one solution.

people do not want to accept the reality that india is a poor country and we need the increased spending on infra FAR FAR more than a bunch of shiny new platinum grade fighters relatively speaking. tens of millions of people will spend another generation in poverty unless we act decisively and break the back of the Congi deficit economy/slumlord system in the next 10 years.

even if Massa were to offer us for free some 100 JSF from its own stock, the opex of massaging and feeding these babies in AC hangers would bankrupt us...plus the complex avionics and sensors all needing expensive OEM support.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jun 2015 18:00

Firing will improve performance.especially bogus plan B

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 02 Jun 2015 18:26

How could an opinion from an Ex- Marshall could be taken royally as IAF stated policy?
And the news looks more like quoting few lines/few words of officers out of context, here and there to project a particular opinion - in this case more Rafale.
Time of to note these news org who are all involved in such activities.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Jun 2015 18:33

Austin wrote:How would firing solve any issue would that magically build up 10-12 ( 400 ) squadron that IAF plans to retire by 2025 or will that make HAL churn out 40 Tejas per year ?

These are institution and industrial problem spread across MOD+IAF+DRDO+HAL and would need decade and many years of persistant work to solve it , something DM or PM or firing people wont solve it

Uncertainty Prevails over Rafale Tender

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 844856.ece
Depleting combat strength of the Indian Air Force, has been a cause of concern for sometime now. As per estimation the IAF plans to retire four squadrons of MiG-21M, five squadrons of MiG-27M and one squadron of MiG-21bison aircraft in 2017, losing 10 squadrons in one year, severely shrinking its increasingly vintage fighter aircraft fleet

Common on Austin, you can do better then these DDM news walas. No air force is going to decommission 10 squadrons in one year. How many times it is repeated that IAF is getting 1 squadron of Su-30 MKI per year (Till 2017-2018) and then 1 squadron of LCA. So 10 squadrons are replaced with 12 squadrons (3 Su-30, 7 LCA Mk1-2, 2 Rafale). Of course it will not be suddenly 42 squadron.

With current behavior IAF might be down to around 30 squadrons, assuming they want 7-7 (IAF's cut) = 0 LCA and 7-5 (MoD and FiM's cut)=2 Rafale squadrons.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 02 Jun 2015 18:36

Speaking of finances, the only aircraft under MRCA that was affordable and quite capable is the Super hornet. A straight out buy of this work horse would have addressed any shortages in aircraft without breaking the bank. But IAF just couldn't resist the dance moves Rafale/EF could do. Also I don't see the real need of having the SH take off from Leh, base this bird closer to the border and there are plenty of other airfields that can support it. The entire line can be shifted to India with good TOT.

EF/Rafale were/are never affordable.

Why not a make in India SH with local players with good TOT, I am sure we can have 2 SHs for the flyaway price of 1 Rafale and there is no way 1 Rafale is better than 2 SHs on any day. Heck a direct order now can allow for a squadron of SH in a year. There is nothing our enemies can throw at us that the SH can't effectively counter for the next many years. Eitherway, it is a workhorse.

I see this as the quickest way to address shortage. With LCA Mk-2 and eventually the AMCA to be powered with derivatives of the GE F414, the engine commonality alone would save billions over decades. SH International can be had for a bargain compared to the Rafale.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Jun 2015 18:37

kit wrote:Why not give all the Rafales to the Navy ..the might do a better job for power projection

The Naval rafales are a very different beast. It was actually the choice of the IN but the MiG was ultimately chosen because that was the only thing that would fit into the lift of the Vik.

The IAF and the IN MiG 29s are as different as chalk and cheese.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jun 2015 18:43

Septimus P. wrote:Speaking of finances, the only aircraft under MRCA that was affordable and quite capable is the Super hornet. A straight out buy of this work horse would have addressed any shortages in aircraft without breaking the bank. But IAF just couldn't resist the dance moves Rafale/EF could do. Also I don't see the real need of having the SH take off from Leh, base this bird closer to the border and there are plenty of other airfields that can support it. The entire line can be shifted to India with good TOT.

EF/Rafale were/are never affordable.

Why not a make in India SH with local players with good TOT, I am sure we can have 2 SHs for the flyaway price of 1 Rafale and there is no way 1 Rafale is better than 2 SHs on any day. Heck a direct order now can allow for a squadron of SH in a year. There is nothing our enemies can throw at us that the SH can't effectively counter for the next many years. Eitherway, it is a workhorse.

I see this as the quickest way to address shortage. With LCA Mk-2 and eventually the AMCA to be powered with derivatives of the GE F414, the engine commonality alone would save billions over decades. SH International can be had for a bargain compared to the Rafale.

Each time US SD f@rts, those SH will become hanger queens.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jun 2015 18:46

Singha wrote:deft scaremongering as if 10 sqdns will suddenly retire one night instead of about 1 sqdn every year until 2025.

the solution is very clear and there is only one solution.

people do not want to accept the reality that india is a poor country and we need the increased spending on infra FAR FAR more than a bunch of shiny new platinum grade fighters relatively speaking. tens of millions of people will spend another generation in poverty unless we act decisively and break the back of the Congi deficit economy/slumlord system in the next 10 years.

even if Massa were to offer us for free some 100 JSF from its own stock, the opex of massaging and feeding these babies in AC hangers would bankrupt us...plus the complex avionics and sensors all needing expensive OEM support.

+100

IAF can fly obsolete Jaguars, MiG-27s, MiG-21 Bisons, each behind the LCA Mk1 in several areas, yet the LCA is not sufficient. Sections of IAF AHQ are living in a different land regarding imports.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 02 Jun 2015 18:51

Karan M wrote:Each time US SD f@rts, those SH will become hanger queens.

Then we should give back everything we ever bought from them I suppose and cancel whatever we plan to buy including more P-8Is, C-130Js, C-17s, what about the eventual large fleet of S-70Bs? If anything as long as things are good, US aircraft in IAF inventory seem to be the only ones delivering on promised availability rates and the ones far from being hangar queens. I suppose such a fart would pretty much make our entire LCA mk-2 fleet useless. Silly but the Pakis seem to be more adept with their begging bowl at playing the SD to their advantage than we are.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jun 2015 18:54

Your response is meaningless since a large fleet of warfighting equipment like fighters which can deliver a disproportionate force are completely different from a handful of transports etc. The LCA Mk2 has only engines from the US. One system can be hedged against at some cost. Having an entire fighter though is different. If you think India is like Pakistan, then I suggest you get a different moral compass and how India is unwilling to barter off sovereignty for some baubles for your country of favor.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Jun 2015 18:55

Never trust the effing amrekis and buy anything from them. some dopy POTUS will sanction us for some silly reason that has no connection to reality. The EJs may convince some future POTUS to sanction us because we stopped some silly visa or banned some stoopide

foundation or the other.

unpredictable, unscrupulous and unreliable SOBs.

only a nobel grubbing crook like mms, who purchased all that useless amreki hardware to keep bush happy and off his back after the commies spiked the nuke deal, would get taken in by the amrekis. Remember how they reacted when the outdated amreki fighters were rejected by India??

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 02 Jun 2015 19:04

fanne wrote:Either something is systematically rotten in iaf or we are ourselves not getting something important.

It is an institutionalized issue at the IAF. The issue being non-integration. Ramana's suggestion is "almost" right. Do not fire the IAF brass, just degrade their authority. Bring in a CDS along with a FP/Defense expert, as the NSA. Make the NSAB semi-institutionalized with responsibilities but with the ability to recruit folks from outside government. Doval can be made a state minister under Home, where his skills can be fruitfully utilized. While at it, also create an NDU and ensure that IAS brass at the MoD are expected to serve for 3-4 three year terms. Under and Joint Secretaries cannot get these postings in MoD, if they do not have 3-4 terms in the MoD. These things can be done, for the issue here is really an institutional one and not of personalities of the IAF.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jun 2015 19:11

How would firing solve any issue would that magically build up 10-12 ( 400 ) squadron that IAF plans to retire by 2025 or will that make HAL churn out 40 Tejas per year ?

These are institution and industrial problem spread across MOD+IAF+DRDO+HAL and would need decade and many years of persistant work to solve it , something DM or PM or firing people wont solve it

Uncertainty Prevails over Rafale Tender

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 844856.ece
Depleting combat strength of the Indian Air Force, has been a cause of concern for sometime now. As per estimation the IAF plans to retire four squadrons of MiG-21M, five squadrons of MiG-27M and one squadron of MiG-21bison aircraft in 2017, losing 10 squadrons in one year, severely shrinking its increasingly vintage fighter aircraft fleet

"Firing" is one alternative, in an attempt to prevent a repeat of the current predicament - that is all. Which itself has got to be a very huge step for the future.

Else they will solve the lack of squadrons and the problem of a lack of squadrons will remain and reappear.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jun 2015 19:12

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:deft scaremongering as if 10 sqdns will suddenly retire one night instead of about 1 sqdn every year until 2025.

the solution is very clear and there is only one solution.

people do not want to accept the reality that india is a poor country and we need the increased spending on infra FAR FAR more than a bunch of shiny new platinum grade fighters relatively speaking. tens of millions of people will spend another generation in poverty unless we act decisively and break the back of the Congi deficit economy/slumlord system in the next 10 years.

even if Massa were to offer us for free some 100 JSF from its own stock, the opex of massaging and feeding these babies in AC hangers would bankrupt us...plus the complex avionics and sensors all needing expensive OEM support.
+100

IAF can fly obsolete Jaguars, MiG-27s, MiG-21 Bisons, each behind the LCA Mk1 in several areas, yet the LCA is not sufficient. Sections of IAF AHQ are living in a different land regarding imports.

The IAF will never be considered a true world power air force with its fleet made up of imports. No superpower can be so dependent on another for its defense needs!

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 02 Jun 2015 19:13

Silly you call it meaningless yet the same transports will be used to deploy SF deep into the heart of the enemy, they are not war fighting equipment per say but they enable a respectable war. Actually, good luck using fighter aircraft alone to fight any battle. Also you speak of one system? You do know Apaches are being ordered, perhaps more in the future for the IA, these aren't being ordered just to swing our proverbial dicks but also fire off shells in anger when needed. S-70B will be ordered and as many as 120+ could be made in India if they win the multiple tenders. What about the P-8I, which plugs plenty of gaping holes in our sub defenses?

As for Pakistan, no one comparing India to Pak, they use submissive begging bowl strategies to get around the SD, we can and should tackle the US from the prospective of strength and not to worry about the silly effing SD which is but a small part of a large cog. We can use the large corps. themselves like GE at the moment for the proposed co-dev of the engines for AMCA. Thanks to lobbying, all favors can be bought. To me a large buy of sub hunting helos/aircraft is just as important as fighters.

The proposed co-development of F414 derivative for AMCA with GE is a good litmus test. Hope they come to their senses and clear it. All am saying is India needn't worry about the SD. This clear differentiation of war fighting and dual use equipment is not needed. You either choose to do business with a nation or you don't, all this middle ground shit doesn't help anyone.