Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Dileep
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Dileep »

Arun_S wrote:These 2 TR modules tell a story:

Gallery >> Aero India 2009 >> P. Kartik Kumar >> LRDE - TR Modules Brochure


L Band TR module effective Transmit power/ module: 2000 watts (net 35 dBW, including 10 dB processing gain), receiver Noise Figure of 3.5dB is pretty decent. So interesting radar performance can be obtained by using these pieces.

The S band TR module is also interesting: Pls ignore the typo error in "Overall TX gain fo 53 dB" that is impossible. That typo should have read 35 dB. (inverse of 53 dB). 8)

Now pls tell me again how many TR element will be in Indian AEW ? multiply that with 2000 watts to get transmitted power, then multiply with antenna gain to get EIRP and from the 3.5dB receiver Noise Figure, see the LoS range that it can see. :twisted:

Engineer/Vishwakarma can see it, but can a fighter pilot burra-sahib see it? You know the answer.
This Vishwakarma sees 200W onlee :cry:

Good specs IMO.
Avinandan
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Avinandan »

The CAEW
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/caew/

It has got 24 inch monitors
The AEW system has six multi-purpose, Windows-based, operator stations with 24in colour monitors that are installed in the rear half of the main cabin.
Also...
The multiple conformal antennae provide the coverage without the need for a large mushroom-shaped radar system installed on comparable aircraft.
Can Gurus shed any light if this would be too much a disadvantage for our Phalcons.

Thanks,
Avinandan
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Avinandan wrote:
The multiple conformal antennae provide the coverage without the need for a large mushroom-shaped radar system installed on comparable aircraft.
Can Gurus shed any light if this would be too much a disadvantage for our Phalcons.

Thanks,
Avinandan
Check quotes/links from the AI thread Avinandan,.... there is a talk by Dr. Christopher that will completely answer ur question regarding the decision to use a podded antenna.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

Jamal K. Malik
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Jamal K. Malik »

Will be the great day for us :) :) :) :) :)
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

So the Phalcons never came to Agra earlier? I think that there is more than meets the eye here. Perhaps the first aircraft had been delivered for offensive ops that were later cancelled leading the aircraft to go back to Israel for finishing touches. Or is it that the first a/c is operational and that we are confusing all about the nos by saying that the first (actually the 2nd) a/c will arrive in May 2009?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Nihat »

The article mentions quotes from "sources in defence ministry" and after the Rafale fiasco , I think we all would do well not to take a word from such "sources".

It'll be here most likely in May , but trust DDM at your own risk regarding the Exact date.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

2 Phalcons in Agra ?
viveks
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by viveks »

Actually...I think that the Phalcon is already here. Ministry of Defence of Bharatiye desh and the biggies will not come out openly about its induction. I would not b surprised if the Phalcons are never delivered...

I think this delay news is bogus....everything in the news regarding the phalcon could be bogus.....The media only dances.
The phalcon will come and will be authorized only by the biggies...when they will say yes...only then it is to be inducted with all the news coverage.

mera bharat mahan. hhmmrrrrrr
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by abhiti »

viveks wrote:Actually...I think that the Phalcon is already here. Ministry of Defence of Bharatiye desh and the biggies will not come out openly about its induction. I would not b surprised if the Phalcons are never delivered...
Phalcon cannot be delivered unless they pass user acceptance tests. That may explain Phalcon sighting but no delivery. Of course Indian military is better of not talking to DDM.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by m mittal »

Will love to see Phalcon in IAF colors.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by JaiS »

Air chief for security boost

Shillong, May 7: The outgoing Air Chief Marshal F.H. Major today said the Mumbai attacks have compelled India to adopt massive security measures to thwart any similar incidents in the future.

“From May 20, we will be getting the Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) which will help the air force to be alert. Moreover, some Hawk jet trainers have also been acquired to see that the air force is well equipped,” the air chief, who will be retiring on May 31, said.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

parshuram
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by parshuram »

what is it like Does Israeli air force crew will be flying it to india or Indian air force team is already there to get big bird home
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Training should already have been completed in Israel.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Nihat »

Which aircraft's would be the most Likely escorts for the Phalcon and how many would be needed to guard it when it goes for intelligence gathering sorties?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Nihat wrote:Which aircraft's would be the most Likely escorts for the Phalcon and how many would be needed to guard it when it goes for intelligence gathering sorties?
I can only see the Su-30 having the long legs required to perform escort duty..... but thats just my idea.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

mig-29s might be the best option as they are dedicated air defence birds but they need the AAR upg first. su-30mki's will probably be in high demand for a plethora of other roles that only it can carry out.

FWIW, when the airavat project was on I remember reading a DDM report that its escort will be 4 mig-21s or 2 Mig-29s.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Shameek »

^^ That will make a great wallpaper! The AWACS escorted by 4 Fulcrums!!
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Drevin »

Reminds me of the great wallpapers having 3 mki's refuelling from an il78. Hopefully the pictures will be great this time around too. :) Early photos showing the indian phalcon on test flights @ Israel/Russia were pretty much outstanding. :twisted:
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by shiv »

Nihat wrote:Which aircraft's would be the most Likely escorts for the Phalcon and how many would be needed to guard it when it goes for intelligence gathering sorties?
"Escorts" are for aircraft entering dangerous airspace.

Why would the Phalcon be put at risk in the first place. The whole idea of an aircraft with 400 km vision is to keep it 100 Km from danger and still see 300 km into enemy territory.

Hopefully it will help create a "sterile zone" 25-50 km on the enemy side of the border where anything that flies gets shot down even before it enters Indian airspace.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

parshuram wrote:what is it like Does Israeli air force crew will be flying it to india or Indian air force team is already there to get big bird home
India has plenty of these air crafts to fly it back home.

It is only the radar aspects that need training.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

Shiv - there are tactics to get to an AWACS.


It will need protection
NRao
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

I thought both tankers ans awacs flew in sanitized space.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Yeah, it will always have escorts. Most probably it will be something with long legs and long range missiles like the MKI. Its very important. Amir khan flies with more than 6-12 escorts in air at any given time. 4 seems extremely minimal.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by suryag »

Surya wrote:Shiv - there are tactics to get to an AWACS.


It will need protection
Surya sir, If the AWACS is well inside Indian airspace say 160 km(=range of patriot) it might not have any reason to worry as it would be out of range of most long range SAMs. Apart from SAMs it is possible that the pigs could send a squadron of their frontline fighters to hunt down AWACs as it is a high value target. In that situation, this squadron would serve as the base ingredient for a mincemeat meal on Indian side, as the AWACS can draw them well inside Indian territory after seeing that these are pursuing it. So in both circumstances the AWACS could do with a light escort if it is well inside(>100km) Indian territory. Are there other ways to kill an awacs ??

One possible way IMO, could be if the pigs smuggle a stinger through the Rajasthan border and hit the AWACS in air when inside Indian territory. In this case the escorts could only deploy ECCMs and since the AWACS already possesses these ECCMs the escorts may not be able to achieve much except for redundancy. One last thing the escorts can do probably is throw themselves in the stinger path and commit harakiri and protect the AWACS. Is there any other way to attack our AWACS when it is in our territory ??

On a sidenote since IAF has stopped giving Indian names to foreign made ACs shouldnt BRF do the honours and provide it a name ... may be Mumtaz or Mumaith(they are tamil/telugu item song girls) on the lines of Rambha
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

wherever they are flying, in any volatile situation AEW&C a/c will always have some amount of escort for the simple reason of being able to respond quickly to any emerging threat.

having a high watch tower is no reason not to station a couple of guards at your gates. :wink:
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by shiv »

Surya wrote:Shiv - there are tactics to get to an AWACS.


It will need protection
What tactics would require 2 or 4 escorts flying with the AWACS if t is 100 km in Indian territory? The "escorts" would be better off ensuring that NOTHING enters Indian airspace rather than buzzing around the AWACS and creating photo ops.

Nothing should even come withing missile range of that AWACS. That means shooting down Pakis in Pakistan and that AWACS is to find them and get them in Paki airspace and not to let them within 50 Km of the AWACS and then have escorts doing heroics.

If any aircraft come within missile firing range of the AWACS then it is failure.. All hostile a/c need to be detected and taken out. And the AWACS will be out of stinger range within Indian territory.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

shiv wrote:What tactics would require 2 or 4 escorts flying with the AWACS if t is 100 km in Indian territory? The "escorts" would be better off ensuring that NOTHING enters Indian airspace rather than buzzing around the AWACS and creating photo ops.

Nothing should even come withing missile range of that AWACS. That means shooting down Pakis in Pakistan and that AWACS is to find them and get them in Paki airspace and not to let them within 50 Km of the AWACS and then have escorts doing heroics.
Its not an ideal world. There are gaps in surveillance that can result for example in between the time it takes for one set of fighters to leave station and another to take station. This could be due to anything from delays in human responses to bad weather etc. There are ways to camouflage a set of fighters configured for attacking the AWACS amidst others destined for tactical ops. Multiple bearings can be used to ensure that the outer ring of fighters on the defensive side are spread thin attacking the tactical air. The list goes on.

If the enemy is smart, he is likely to try and punch through when such gaps occur. Then there are leaks during the knife fight that might occur even if the outer layer of fighters are engaged with the enemy fighters. The loss of situational awareness on board the fighters in the outer layer in the heat of battle will ensure that there are some leaks. The inner ring of fighters around the AWACS must be tasked with dealing this threat since the operators on the AWACS have not lost their situational awareness and neither have the pilots of the inner ring. This inner ring may not be "escorts" in the classic sense but rather a group of fighters tied to the AWACS by a tight rope while the main fighter groups are tied to the AWACS as a loose rope. Maneuver flexibility is therefore reduced (as in the range of jobs that a fighter group can engage in) as you go inwards in this ring structure.

Also note that the further away you spread your fighters from the AWACS, the greater the surveillance arc they have to monitor. There are greater distances to cover and hence the time for response increases. Conversely, the closer you keep the fighters, the shorter the response time and distance required to travel. But at the same time you cannot get too close to the AWACS. hence the argument for outer and inner layer defenses.
If any aircraft come within missile firing range of the AWACS then it is failure.. All hostile a/c need to be detected and taken out.
True.
And the AWACS will be out of stinger range within Indian territory.
Not just stingers, but basically all but the high end, long range SAMs.
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 10 May 2009 13:38, edited 2 times in total.
vivek_ahuja
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

NRao wrote:I thought both tankers ans awacs flew in sanitized space.
Ours is not the USAF. The IAF is a force with dwindling numbers and little hope for force reconstitution in the near future so that there is no such thing as "sanitized space" in any future battlefield unless the entire MKI force is kept solely on air superiority posture.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

The "escorts" would be better off ensuring that NOTHING enters Indian airspace rather than buzzing around the AWACS and creating photo ops.
escorts don't necessarily have to be tagged around the AEW&C like flies on a horse. they may not even be within visual range of the AEW&C a/c. for example, I would guess at least one of the escorts will be flying top cover to use the height and therefore energy advantage.
as vivek says, they will be in position to be on-call at any time, with protecting the asset being their first priority.

which means they will not chase after any and every enemy a/c which other air superiority fighters will (a clever enemy will use bait and switch tactics to lure away such fighters away from the AEW&C, which is why it needs a dedicated support group) but engage only those enemy aircrafts that potentially pose a threat to the asset.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

Which makes me think , in any future conflict , the PAF will make it a top priority to take down these Eyes of IAF with combination of tactics , intel and a little bit of luck at their side.

While IAF would be pressing significant amount of asset directly/indirectly to protect these.

For a weaker enemy , a long range stand off weapon like LRAAM ( KS-172 types ) presents the best bet to take off the target with high flight and dip for the kill trajectory on a slow moving and less maneuverable target like AWACS.

If PAF chooses to look for the gap , enter in to an engagement and go for the kill , it would be a difficult ask.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

Shiv

Obviously I cannot say it here.

But you can check with your contacts -


Everyone who has to face an AWACS tries to plan to knock them off. They may succeed or not - but the plans exist

Also does not mean the escorsts will be chipkaoed next to the AWACS - they will be a tad bit away for a variety of reasons
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

IIRC didn't the E3s during Indradhanush have a time of it trying to track the bisons. And the RAF E3D is a pretty decent kit. these ittybitty a/c with small rcs and high speeds are not the easiest to get a hold of by radar it seems. Redflag BS commentator Fornoff to expressed something of the sort. Expect the Thandaar to pull a bison type stunt if given half a chance.

Sniping tactics would seem one way of getting to eye in sky. Backed by erieye, maintaining silence until the very last moment and then trying a multiple missile attack might be dangerful onlee. J10 variants with IRST might do better. Phalcon better be deep inside + have decent escort package. JMT

CM.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by JaiS »

India to get early warning radar system

NEW DELHI (AFP) — India is expected to acquire its first Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) next week, officials said Monday, crowning its drive to achieve air dominance over rival Pakistan.

The delivery by Israel of the sophisticated Phalcon early warning radar surveillance system, set for May 20, will also mark another milestone in growing military ties with the Jewish state.

The AWACS "will be deployed straight away," air force spokesman T.K. Singha told AFP.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Nihat »

The Phalcon AWACS can simultaneously track nearly 250 flying objects within a radius of 800 kilometres (500 miles) and also has a "look-down" capability allowing it to monitor movements on the ground or at sea, officials say.
I would have thought the tracking Radii to be between 400-450 Km , if there any Unit mistake that I'm making. According to that statement it would mean that Phalcon can look 800Km on all sides i.e 360 degrees when in flight.
India will be the second Asian country after China to acquire the AWACS.
Which AWACS does China has , they were denied the Phalcon but are developing their own KJ2000 which would take some time.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by JaiS »

Nihat wrote:
I would have thought the tracking Radii to be between 400-450 Km , if there any Unit mistake that I'm making. According to that statement it would mean that Phalcon can look 800Km on all sides i.e 360 degrees when in flight.
I agree, I believe that the author confused radii with diameter.
Nihat wrote:

Which AWACS does China has , they were denied the Phalcon but are developing their own KJ2000 which would take some time.
I think the article is talking about the KJ-2000 (reportedly in-service in PLAAF) and the Y-8 based Balance Beam AWACS. More info about their developmental history can be read here. Also, the Y-8 has been demo'ed to PAF, with four type then sold to PAF.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by rkhanna »

^^^ pictures recently showing 4 Y-8 AWACs on a runway (apparently no PS). They should also have a couple of KJ-2000s up and running + 2 being built for Pakistan.

http://i39.tinypic.com/ay0h0j.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/1i0j1i.jpg
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by pkudva »

Some reports also suggest that China had aquired 4 No's of A-50 Breivev Aircraft from Russia.These are unconfirmed reports.
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