Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 03 Sep 2008 07:20

Tanaji wrote:No need for international cases... the day of Londonistan is not far off at this rate, going by Gerard's article.

Another case in point:

A female radiologist , Muslim is hired by one of the biggest hospitals in the South. She is made aware that there are strict regulations of no clothing to be worn below the elbow. This is to prevent outbreaks and carrying of hospital superbugs like MRSA. Said person agrees to the terms. Now she is suing the hospital for "deliberate attack on Islam", "preventing her from following her religion" etc. etc. The case is starting to get sympathetic play now.

Then there were the cases of Muslim doctors not wanting to complete courses in their medical curriculum that dealt with sexual activity and contraception and alcoholism since this was haraam and against Islam. They still wanted to graduate though. Maybe I should have claimed Differential Calculus was against my religion in my engineering and see how far it would have got..

Another case was the case of lawyers who wanted to wear full face hizaab in courts.

Then there are schools that now only server halaal meat to the students and not regular meat since its too costly to serve both types due to their limited budget. Pleas by non Muslim parents that they dont want halaal are left unheeded.

If not an inconvenience, do you mind posting these links if you still have access to them? I'd like to use them to bludgeon some mo-mofo's on israel forum. TIA.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 03 Sep 2008 14:34

Radiologist issue, doesnt mention the lawsuit though:

http://google-sina.com/2008/09/02/no-ro ... loses-job/

Muslim doctors

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 603966.ece

Muslim lawyer

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006 ... veil_x.htm

Halaal meat in schools

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... meals.html
There was another report that the school was not doing it due to budgetary constraints.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 04 Sep 2008 02:30

In the Islamic Emirate of England, Held Wales, Occupied Scotland and English-Administered-Ireland...
Compulsory fasting for all

This is, let me remind you, happening not on Karachi borough council but in Tower Hamlets in London.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 04 Sep 2008 02:38

Brits already hate the muslims, just wait till it hits the fan. Jewish genocide will look like joke compared to what muslims will face in europe.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Sep 2008 10:59

The controversial police chief of Scotland Yard,Sir Ian Blair,accused of racism and leading an "instituionalised racist" police force,is now on the verge of being "terminated".The tragic killing of a Brazilian on the tube during the London bombings and the accusations of racism against him from the highest ranking Asian officer,was the last straw.Few Asian serve in the police ,as they feel discriminate dagainst.Blair's ousting will be seen with great relief by the Asian community.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 670564.ece

Sir Ian Blair will be ousted as head of Scotland Yard
Sean O’Neill, Crime Editor

Detailed plans are being prepared to oust Sir Ian Blair from his position as head of Scotland Yard in an attempt to halt the collapse of morale in the Metropolitan Police. Ministers, senior officials and leading police chiefs have secretly discussed arrangements for replacing the embattled commissioner by the end of this year.

The Times has learnt that the first step will be taken this week when Sir Ian is told formally, in writing, that his contract will not be renewed when it expires in February 2010.

The plan envisages Sir Ian staying in the post to act as a “lightning conductor” for criticism of the Met at the inquest into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, which opens this month. He would then be approached to stand down in the best interests of the force.

One senior source said: “The grey suits are gathering. Ian has already been asked to consider whether his staying in the job is damaging the Met. The infighting at the top of the Yard is sapping the morale of the men and women doing the job on the street.”

The man who refused to quit runs out of options
The twilight of Sir Ian Blair
London crime map website unveiled

The news that a decision has been taken not to renew Sir Ian’s contract will trigger an open race for his job. The post is the most coveted in British policing: leading the 35,000-strong Met, fulfilling national counter-terrorism and royalty protection roles and preparing for the London 2012 Olympics.

Sir Ian, 55, hoped to be commissioner during the Olympics but his leadership, which has been dogged by controversy, has become increasingly precarious in recent years, with three serious challenges to his authority over the summer.

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur has accused him of racial discrimination and started employment tribunal proceedings. Sir Ian is also at the centre of an inquiry into allegations that he influenced the award of police contracts to a close friend.

The inquest into the death of Mr de Menezes, who was shot seven times in the head after being mistaken for a suicide bomber at Stockwell, South London, in July 2005, is expected to be hugely damaging for the Met. A well-placed source said: “He has become the issue. There comes a point when fairness has nothing to do with it and what matters is the integrity of the organisation.” Should Sir Ian, who has described himself as “a bit of a limpet”, resist an approach to step down he could be removed. The Police Act 1996 states that the Metropolitan Police Authority (MPA) and the Home Secretary can call upon the commissioner “to retire in the interests of efficiency or effectiveness”.

Sources have told The Times that Jacqui Smith consulted on sacking Sir Ian last year after the Met was convicted of breaching health and safety laws in the operation that led to Mr de Menezes’s death. The Home Office backed away from the idea, not wanting to be seen to bow to opposition calls for Sir Ian to quit.

Sir Ian was also able to point to falling crime figures in London, but that argument is severely weakened by the series of teenage murders.

Under the plan, the Deputy Commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, would become acting commissioner. The commissioner will be chosen by Ms Smith, but she must consult the authority, which will soon be under the control of Boris Johnson, the Conservative Mayor of London.

A number of senior officers outside London are regarded as qualified for the role. Sir Hugh Orde, Chief Constable of Northern Ireland, Sir Norman Bettison, police chief in West Yorkshire, and Bernard Hogan-Howe in Merseyside would all be expected to compete for the post. An acting deputy commissioner would be chosen from within Scotland Yard. Assistant Commissioner John Yates, who led the cash-for-honours inquiry, is well placed, but he would have to leapfrog over more senior colleagues.

A spokesman for the authority said that discussions over Sir Ian’s contract were confidential. “The MPA writes to serving chief officer ranks 18 months prior to the culmination of their existing contract to seek their views on extending that contract. In the case of the commissioner, who is a royal appointee, the views of the Home Secretary will also be sought. We are in the process of writing to the commissioner and the Home Secretary.”

A spokesman for Scotland Yard said: “The commissioner still has 18 months to run on his original contract and has had no discussions with anyone about this being extended. He has received no correspondence on this matter.”

Leaked e-mails obtained by The Times in July revealed that senior MPA officials had discussed pressing “the nuclear button” over the commissioner’s position after the emergence of the contracts controversy.

Sir Ian joined the Met in 1974 after studying English at Christ Church, Oxford. He had entertained childhood dreams of being a doctor and undergraduate ideas of becoming an actor but decided to become a policeman.

He progressed quickly through the ranks, wrote an influential book on the investigation of rape cases and by 1988 was a superintendent. He became deputy commissioner in 2000 and commissioner in 2005.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Sep 2008 12:40

Gordon Brown is in deep trouble after a series of election losses,a failing economy,collapsing house prices and lacklustre leadership in comparison with david Cameron of the Tories,who barring a major setback,is likely to be Britain's next PM.India should start a dialogue with Cameron and the Tories right now.

Brown will be ousted in months, critics say
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 19521.html

By Andrew Grice, Political Editor
Friday, 5 September 2008

The debate over Gordon Brown's future eclipsed his attempt to paint a more upbeat picture of the economy than his Chancellor

The ghost of Labour past sends a shiver through corridors of No 10
Steve Richards: Hasty plotters still offer no plausible vision of life after Brown

Matthew Norman: Anyone would be better than Brown – even Kerry Katona
Leading article: This is not a plot. It is a groundswell of discontent

Gordon Brown's critics predicted he would be ousted within two months as Labour descended into bitter infighting yesterday.

Charles Clarke cast a long shadow over Mr Brown's attempted relaunch by calling on the Cabinet to stage a mutiny against him if he failed to revive Labour's fortunes soon.

But Brown allies hit back by warning Labour MPs that they would be "turkeys voting for Christmas" if the Prime Minister was forced out, saying that an incoming leader would have to call an early general election.

The former home secretary admitted the Cabinet was not yet ready to oust Mr Brown – but believed it would move against him if he failed to show an early improvement. "I think many in the Cabinet share the view we are in great difficulty and [are] doubtful about our capacity to get out of it," he said.

Mr Clarke said the two scenarios were for Mr Brown to significantly improve the Government's performance or to "stand down with honour" if that did not happen within weeks or months. But Brown allies dismissed the idea that he would leave voluntarily. A Cabinet loyalist told The Independent: "People who want Gordon to go should ask themselves whether they want an early general election, and what the party's prospects would be. We couldn't change prime ministers a second time without calling an election. The pressure would be unstoppable."

Opponents of Mr Brown hit back, saying any incoming prime minister would have some months to show the voters what kind of leader he or she would be before calling an election.

Brown critics claimed there was a growing consensus for a concerted move to push him out of Downing Street "sooner rather than later" after the weekend warning by Alistair Darling that Britain faced "arguably the worst" economic crisis for 60 years.

They said that, before the Chancellor's remarks, many Labour backbenchers wanted to delay a decision on Mr Brown's future until after local and Euro-pean elections next June in the hope that the economy would have picked up by then. "This week, MPs are saying if the economy is still going to be bad next year, we might as well bring the leadership issue to a head now," said one critic.

Although no Labour MP backed Mr Clarke publicly, another former cabinet minister insisted: "He has put on the record what a lot of MPs believe. At some stage, that had to be done."

But Mr Clarke suffered a backlash from Brown allies, who accused him of trying to sabotage the Government's fightback. Ed Balls, the Schools Secretary, said: "It's not the first time Charles has made those kind of comments. I think it's Charles being Charles." Tony Lloyd, chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party, insisted the "overwhelming majority" of Labour MPs backed Mr Brown.

The debate over his future eclipsed an attempt by Mr Brown to paint a more upbeat picture of the economy than his Chancellor. He told the Scottish CBI in Glasgow last night: "While never complacent about our economic prospects, I am also cautiously optimistic about the long-term resilience and underlying strengths of the British economy because at root our economy today is better placed to weather any global storm than it was in the Seventies, Eighties or early Nineties."

The Prime Minister said Government would respond with "vision, courage and steadfastness to address the new insecurities that hard-pressed, hard-working British families face."

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 07 Sep 2008 18:25

Confidential data again goes missing in Britain

London, Sep 7 (DPA) A computer disk containing the personal data of around 5,000 prison workers in Britain has gone missing, in another case of several similar incidents that have embarrassed the government, a British tabloid reported Sunday.

Information including the names, employee numbers and perhaps the addresses of prison guards and other personnel were contained on a portable hard-drive that went missing in July 2007, although the ministry of justice to whom the data belonged was not informed by the data firm EDS until recently, said the News of the World.

The News of the World claimed it received access to a letter from EDS to the British prison service confessing to the loss of the data.

According to a source quoted by the paper, senior (prison) staff have gone to great lengths to keep this quiet. There are criminals out there who would love to get their own back on guards and governors. This could give them all the details they need to take revenge.'

Justice Secretary Jack Straw announced an immediate investigation.

I am extremely concerned about this missing data,' Straw said, adding that he 'ordered an urgent inquiry into the circumstances and the implications of the data loss and the level of risk involved. I have asked for a report as to why I was not informed as soon as my department became aware of this issue. My officials are also in touch with EDS.'

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 07 Sep 2008 21:39

CIA 'helped draw up Iraq war dossier for UK'

Sun-Sep 07, 2008
London / Press Trust of India
The CIA is claimed to have helped in drawing up the Iraq dossier for Britain, which made the case for the Second Gulf War in that oil-rich nation.

The document contained some "false" claims, including warnings that Saddam Hussein could launch the weapons of mass destruction within "45 minutes" and that it was "beyond doubt" that the former Iraqi dictator was developing nuclear weapons.

Now, six years after the document was made public, it has emerged that British intelligence agency MI6's chief John Scarlett actually sought foreign help - which sources claimed came from the CIA - to give final touches to the dossier, the Daily Mail reported.

In fact, the disclosure that Scarlett showed the draft to a foreign power and asked for its input, is contained in the British government's arguments about why it cant reveal further details of the discussions that led to the erroneous contents of the final document.

On September 16, 2002, a week before the dossier was made public, Scarlett sent members of the Joint Intelligence Committee, which includes the heads of MI5, MI6 and the GCHQ spy centre, a draft copy of the report.

In an accompanying note he wrote: "The text is still subject to further revision depending on your comments," But the rest of this key sentence was blacked out by government censors when it was about to be made public by the Hutton Inquiry, the judicial probe into the affair.

Now, the British government has told the Information Commissioner Richard Thomas that the sentence's second half can't be revealed because it would damage Britain's relations with a foreign state, making its disclosure exempt under the Freedom of Information Act.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2008 19:18

We all know now that Bush-sh*t was conjured up to fool the world while the US merrily invaded Iraq and got its hands on all that oil,the world's second largest reserves,raped its museums of the world's oldest archaeological heritage and made incredible windfall profits for US oil companies and billions more for Cheney's pals from Halliburton! The only failure was that the neo-con "Christian soldiers" planned to also invade Iraq in their thousands after the war could not do so thanks to the insurgency.It was impossible.

Meanwhile,here is a dramatic coup for Sir Ian Blair and the British police establishment who have engineered the dismissal of the Asian officer who alleged racism against the top British cop. It will spell doom for Asian/minority recruitment into the British police and some say that's the way they want it!

Tarique Ghaffur 'relieved of duties' at Scotland Yard
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -Yard.html

Tarique Ghaffur, Britain's most senior Asian police officer, has been relieved of his duty by the Metropolitan Police, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.

By Richard Edwards and Robert Winnett
Last Updated: 3:00PM BST 09 Sep 2008

Assistant Commissioner, Tarique Ghaffur, has been put on authorised leave Photo: PA
The Assistant Commissioner, who announced an unprecedented race claim against Sir Ian Blair last month, was summoned to Scotland Yard and told he would be put on "gardening leave".

It is the latest twist in a damaging "civil war" which has undermined Sir Ian's leadership of Britain's largest force and led last week to new claims that the Commissioner would be forced out of his job by Christmas.

It will also intensify an acrimonious race row, with Mr Ghaffur likely to claim that being suspended from Scotland Yard is further evidence of his victimisation.

It is understood he will remain on his £180,000-a-year salary pending the outcome of the tribunal and the end of his contract next May.

Meanwhile the Met's Professional Standards Committee has called for an investigation into whether Mr Ghaffur breached disciplinary codes by staging a televised press conference to announce his race claim.

Although his departure will be met with some relief at Scotland Yard, where some in the senior ranks had said they felt they could no longer work closely with the Mr Ghaffur, it exposes one of the most senior roles in national policing.

As the Met's "No.3" he attended Sir Ian's "cabinet" meetings three times a week and was head of a unit which oversees security planning for the 2012 Olympics and the Met's firearms teams. It is also embarrassing for Sir Ian - a champion of "diversity" - that there are now no ethnic minority officers above the rank of Commander in the Met. The two most senior are Cmdr Shabhir Hussain, who last week lost his own race case after claiming he was denied promotion four times, and Cmdr Ali Dizaei, who has strongly backed Mr Ghaffur in his claim.

One high-ranking source said: "There has been a complete breakdown in trust and having gone public with his claims it was only right that Tarique stepped aside from his role pending the tribunal. It was an untenable situation but this whole episode is very sad for the Met and Tarique."

Mr Ghaffur's lawyers said he had been considering his position because he received death threats after directly accusing the Commissioner of being a racist, an accusation he strongly denies.

He employed private bodyguards and chose not to notify colleagues of the threats because he felt that he could no longer trust the Met to protect him, his lawyers claimed.

The Ugandan born 53-year-old, who joined the police service in 1974 after coming to Britain as a teenage refugee, is expected to issue a statement later.

Mr Ghaffur's contact was due to run until May next year. Having served more than 30 years, he is eligible to retire immediately and receive a lump sum payout of £522,000 and an index-linked pension of £85,000 a year.

The Assistant Commissioner lodged his race complaint at an employment tribunal on August 22. It was his decision to give a televised press conference to air his grievances which caused consternation within Scotland Yard.

Sir Paul Stephenson, the Met's Deputy Commissioner, issued an instant rebuke, telling Mr Ghaffur and all in the force to "shut up" and get on with the job they were paid to do.

Mr Ghaffur was "taken aback" by the level of aggression towards him, which he said had made him reconsider his position.

He issued a statement which said: "In light of the tone of Sir Paul Stephenson's statement, I am now extremely concerned for my personal safety and those close to me including family and supporters alike.

"As a direct consequence of the manner and delivery of comments such as 'shut up and get on with your job', together with the animosity he has generated, I am forced to reconsider my position with the Metropolitan police force."

He added: "The difficult question remains whether it is tenable for me to remain in my position, given I consider there is now a very serious risk of harm to both myself and those close to me."

Mr Ghaffur has also been upset by revelations about his private life. His lawyers last week confirmed they were acting for him in a "marital dispute" with his second wife, Shehla, but denied that any divorce papers had been served.

Shahrokh Mireskandari, of Dean & Dean solicitors, said: "We are acting for Tarique in relation to this matter. It is a matrimonial dispute, no divorce proceedings have been issued."

The tribunal, which is expected to be heard next year, threatens to plunges the force into its worst racism row since the 1998 Macpherson report branded the force "institutionally racist''.

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 10 Sep 2008 07:30

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... fears.html

Defence chiefs have abandoned plans to raise a regiment of British Sikhs amid fears that the move would be branded racist.

The proposal to create the regiment, reminiscent of those that fought for Britain in the two world wars, was dropped by the Ministry of Defence after discussions with the Commission for Racial Equality (CRE).

Sikh leaders had informed Army recruitment officers that they could easily find enough volunteers to form a 700-strong regiment. However, despite the infantry being under strength by 3,000 soldiers, the offer was rejected.

Lieutenant General Sir Freddie Viggers, the Adjutant General with responsibility for recruitment, is understood to have accepted the argument put forward by race commissioners at the CRE that creating a Sikh regiment would be divisive and amounted to "segregation".

Leaders of Britain's 500,000 Sikhs were supportive of the idea of a new regiment, arguing that it would be no different from the Scots, Welsh and Irish Guards or the Royal Gurkha Rifles, which recruits exclusively from Nepal and which is regarded as a model infantry regiment.

The decision to shelve the plans was last night criticised by politicians, members of the Sikh community and soldiers, who claimed that the Army had fallen victim to political correctness.

Kuljit Singh Gulati, the general secretary of the Sikh Temple in Shepherd's Bush, west London, said: "The Sikhs have a long and distinguished heritage of serving with the British Army.

"I know there are many, many Sikhs who would join up and would serve wherever required. But if you want to get them in large numbers they need their own regiment, something they would take a huge amount of pride in.

"They would regard it as very prestigious. It is a shame that it now looks as though it will never happen."

A senior Army officer said: "The MoD has missed a golden opportunity in not tapping into the Sikh community's desire to form a regiment. It's nonsense to suggest this would amount to segregation and since when did the CRE dictate Britain's defence -policy?"

The decision will also dismay Prince Charles, who has expressed an interest in the creation of dedicated units to boost the number of people from ethnic minorities in the services and to harness the military tradition of the Sikh faith in particular.

Last year, the armed forces were ordered to meet tough targets to recruit more men and women from ethnic minorities.

A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "The creation of a Sikh Regiment has been considered by the Army policy staff responsible for both equality and diversity issues, who went on to consult with the Commission for Racial Equality.

"Both agreed that grouping ethnic minorities runs counter to the Armed Forces philosophy that seeks to include, not exclude, and extend opportunities."

A CRE spokesman said: "We would not support any policy that seeks to isolate specific groups in the Armed Forces or wider society.

"The creation of a separate regiment according to ethnicity would be segregation, which amounts to discrimination under the Race Relations Act. Anything that creates separation between regiments can only have a detrimental effect upon our Armed Forces' operational effectiveness."

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Sep 2008 04:16

If Britianistan comes about, Scotland would separate before that? What are the moves of the SNP?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 12 Sep 2008 12:43

Two Brits arrested in New Delhi with 5 kg charas

Sep 11, 2008
New Delhi, September 11: Two British nationals, including a woman, have been arrested by the Narcotics Control Bureau while allegedly trying to send a consignment of 5.6 kg of charas to Netherlands via a courier agency in New Delhi.

According to senior officials of NCB, Alister Andreson and Olivia Bud, both British nationals, were arrested by the agency on Wednesday night from Okhla Warehouse area in the capital with 1.4 kg charas.

"On their information we raided a courier company from where we seized three packets booked for Netherlands. The packets contained additional 4.2 kg charas," a top NCB official said.

During questioning, it was revealed that the couple had come to India in 1st week of September and had soon left for Himachal Pradesh from where they had procured the contraband, the official said.

The agency also raided a hotel in Paharganj where the couple was staying and recovered 500 tablets of Diazepam, a psychotropic substance, he added.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 12 Sep 2008 12:46

'Muslim Massacre' video game condemned for glamorising slaughter of Arabs

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 13 Sep 2008 21:17

Radical Muslims warn of another 9/11

Mr Choudary talked about the black "flag of Sharia" flying over Downing Street by 2020, saying 500 people a day were converting to Islam. He laughed that Muslim families in places like Whitechapel and Bethnal Green in east London were having "10 or 12 children each".

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Sep 2008 21:51

I dont think the british are going to wake up and recover their country from these beasts.
the old warfighter english genes are long gone.

Scotland might still be sagfe by separating and posting clan warriors in kilts but armed
with javelin and shmel at the border but southern england is where the new Emirate
will take over.

I have classmates settled in england and one BIL. I guess their girls will have to
wear burqa in high school. maybe even their wives in middle age

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 13 Sep 2008 23:16

Daily Telegraph

India to spend more on defence than Britain within five years

India 'must not show weakness to China'

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Sep 2008 01:05

Have more babies and Muslims can take over the UK

archan · Post by **archan** » 14 Sep 2008 01:24

^^ Reading the comments on that story... The Brits are cringing at their govt.'s dhimmitude. I guess such are the side effects of democracies. The rulers play for votes, no matter where they come from. That to me, is a failure of democracy. Its the same in India. No wonder Islamic countries abhor democracy. Democracies have to reform or else they will not exist in a few decades. Sad, but probably true.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Sep 2008 21:44

Merchants of Hatred

I was there as the radical cleric and self-styled sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed proclaimed that this country - where he received state benefits for two decades - will soon be transformed into an Islamic state, or Khilafah, run according to the rules of the Muslim holy book, the Koran.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Sep 2008 21:47

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 15 Sep 2008 02:48

Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts

ISLAMIC law has been officially adopted in Britain, with sharia courts given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases.

The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.

Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.

Previously, the rulings of sharia courts in Britain could not be enforced, and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.

It has now emerged that sharia courts with these powers have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester with the network’s headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire. Two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996.

Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.

Siddiqi said: “We realised that under the Arbitration Act we can make rulings which can be enforced by county and high courts. The act allows disputes to be resolved using alternatives like tribunals. This method is called alternative dispute resolution, which for Muslims is what the sharia courts are.”

The disclosure that Muslim courts have legal powers in Britain comes seven months after Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was pilloried for suggesting that the establishment of sharia in the future “seems unavoidable” in Britain.

In July, the head of the judiciary, the lord chief justice, Lord Phillips, further stoked controversy when he said that sharia could be used to settle marital and financial disputes.

In fact, Muslim tribunal courts started passing sharia judgments in August 2007. They have dealt with more than 100 cases that range from Muslim divorce and inheritance to nuisance neighbours.

It has also emerged that tribunal courts have settled six cases of domestic violence between married couples, working in tandem with the police investigations.

Siddiqi said he expected the courts to handle a greater number of “smaller” criminal cases in coming years as more Muslim clients approach them. “All we are doing is regulating community affairs in these cases,” said Siddiqi, chairman of the governing council of the tribunal.

Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.

Politicians and church leaders expressed concerns that this could mark the beginnings of a “parallel legal system” based on sharia for some British Muslims.

Dominic Grieve, the shadow home secretary, said: “If it is true that these tribunals are passing binding decisions in the areas of family and criminal law, I would like to know which courts are enforcing them because I would consider such action unlawful. British law is absolute and must remain so.”

Douglas Murray, the director of the Centre for Social Cohesion, said: “I think it’s appalling. I don’t think arbitration that is done by sharia should ever be endorsed or enforced by the British state.”

There are concerns that women who agree to go to tribunal courts are getting worse deals because Islamic law favours men.

Siddiqi said that in a recent inheritance dispute handled by the court in Nuneaton, the estate of a Midlands man was divided between three daughters and two sons.

The judges on the panel gave the sons twice as much as the daughters, in accordance with sharia. Had the family gone to a normal British court, the daughters would have got equal amounts.

In the six cases of domestic violence, Siddiqi said the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders. There was no further punishment.

In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations.

Siddiqi said that in the domestic violence cases, the advantage was that marriages were saved and couples given a second chance.

Inayat Bunglawala, assistant secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: “The MCB supports these tribunals. If the Jewish courts are allowed to flourish, so must the sharia ones.”

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Sep 2008 12:35

The current situ in the UK after the "meltdown".One mentioned cost of private education is a factor why many Indian/Asian parents are sending their children to India to be educated in our boarding schools,which provide a sound education at a 10th of the cost.One of my own relations is seriously considering sending a grandchild back here to study in a boarding school,where apart from the cost,the values taught in Indian schools give the child a sound foundation with the emphasis on close family ties,when compared with the "political/social correctness" that has bedevilled education in Britain today apart from a drop in quality.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm
An autumn of discontent
By Irfan Husain

Schadenfreud is a German word that, according to the Concise Oxford Dictionary, means “a malicious enjoyment of another’s misfortune.” I must confess to a certain amount of this malice as I watch the pain bankers on Wall Street and elsewhere are feeling. True, their woes translate into a widening circle of financial turmoil spreading around the globe, but just for a moment, I would like to rub my hands in glee at the sight of some of the richest people on the planet begging governments for a bailout.

When I was studying economics at university, one of the first things we learned was that hardwired into the capitalist system was the business cycle in which a period of economic expansion was followed by a recession, as surely as night follows day. To put it in other words, what goes up must come down. However, from the mid-Nineties until recently, we were told by those beating the drum for capitalism that finally, the beast had been tamed, and we were witnessing the golden age of free markets where there was no downside.

Indeed, Gordon Brown, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, boasted that the cycle of boom and bust was now a thing of the past. This decade of prosperity was largely built on a steep rise in property prices that allowed owners to borrow money against their homes. These loans were used to finance holidays, new cars and all sorts of shiny toys. This spending supported armies of workers in the manufacturing and service sectors, and paid bankers their obscene salaries and bonuses.

On our way to the Promised Land, we were suddenly mugged by reality, and discovered the hard way that what goes up really does come down. The cosh used by the mugger came in the shape of sub-prime mortgages in the United States. These were loans practically forced down the throats of people who did not have enough income to pay off the mortgages they had been persuaded to take by grubby salesmen pretending to be bankers. Lenders passed on these toxic mortgages to other financial institutions until they were like ticking time bombs waiting to explode in financial markets around the world.

Once insolvent borrowers began defaulting, fear pushed financial institutions to dump these bad loans from their books, and the write-offs began mounting into the hundreds of billions. But another factor was at work: complex financial instruments known as derivatives that included these sub-prime mortgages suddenly became bad news. As they fell in value, they pulled down giants like Lehman Brothers that had bought billions worth of these poorly-understood instruments. Bear Sterns had already been pulled down by market manipulators, and now the giant of the insurance world, AIG, is teetering at the brink. Merrill Lynch is another banking icon that is now history.

But let’s be clear on one thing: what has pushed the banking sector to the wall is not some unforeseen disaster, or an act of God. What has caused this collapse is plain, old-fashioned human greed. At the end of the day, this is at the heart of the capitalist system, and is what drives the markets. When regulated, it can produce wealth not just for the individual capitalist, but for society as a whole. However, when given open licence, it can create havoc and great human suffering – as it is doing today.

In London alone, the collapse of Lehman Brothers has cost nearly 5,000 jobs. At least 20,000 more around the world are sure to follow. Trading partners of this giant American investment bank are bound to take a huge hit. Already, stock markets around the globe are reeling as small investors take a pounding.

Some of this financial agony is sure to translate into punishment for the politicians who are perceived to have stood by and watched ordinary people be wiped out by the greed of a handful of bankers. Gordon Brown, for one, was already in trouble with his own party before this latest disaster. Dissidents, dismayed at the Labour Party’s headlong plunge in the opinion polls, are demanding a vote to decide the Prime Minister’s political future.

There is a real threat of a Conservative landslide in the next general elections unless Labour’s fortunes miraculously improve. This is unlikely to happen under Brown. The hapless PM is not endowed with the charisma Tony Blair had. Even when Brown announces a (rare) bit of good news, he comes across as somebody informing us that a close relative had just died. In the wake of Britain’s imminent slide into recession, Labour’s dormant left-wing is likely to lead the charge against Brown. Silenced earlier by New Labour’s espousal of the free markets during a period of boom, a leadership challenge might well push the party back to its socialist roots.

Already, signs of economic distress are everywhere, with car sales and house prices plunging. Unemployment is beginning to bite with 70,000 people already thrown out of work due to companies downsizing and shutting down. Recession is defined as two successive quarters of negative growth, and the UK is projected to enter this unfamiliar zone later this year.

Indeed, an entire generation has grown up in an era of prosperity without knowing any serious deprivation. Teenagers are used to fly to distant destinations for holidays, and to European towns for the weekend. They have the latest iPods, go to clubs every other evening, and buy designer clothes whenever they go shopping. To have to adjust their lifestyle to meet changing realities is to enter into a world they have never known.

Their parents, accustomed to simply increasing the size of their mortgage to finance their and their children’s expenses, are suddenly having to cope with uncertainty. The cost of sending one child to a good private boarding school (confusingly known as ‘public schools’) is around 30,000 pounds. And given the deep distrust many middle class families view state schools with, this is not a luxury but a necessity. Many people have gone deep into debt to give their kids a good private education, and are now struggling to repay their loans.

Unfortunately, the recession has yet to hit restaurants, and a recent survey shows that people are spending as much on eating out as they did a year ago. Thus, restaurants have not yet lowered their prices, as I had hoped they would.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 20 Sep 2008 15:15

A small break on the road to Londonistan

Britain’s youngest convicted terrorist was sentenced to two years in a young offender institution yesterday.

Speaking after the sentencing of Britain's youngest terrorist, Shahid Malik, the minister for International Development, said parents had to be vigilant against the threat of radicalisation.
He also called on mosques to do more to combat fundamentalism.

The MP spoke out after the sentencing of Hammad Munshi who was just 15 when he was recruited by a terror cell believed to have been plotting against the Royal Family.

The teenager, from Dewsbury in West Yorkshire, had downloaded information about bomb-making material from the internet and hidden notes about martyrdom under his bed.

The judge at the Old Bailey said the schoolboy's head had been filled with "pernicious and warped ideas" which led to his involvement in a plan to kill kuffars or non-believers.

Munshi's local MP Mr Malik said: "It is a real wake-up call for parents because there is a real need to be vigilant, especially when their kids are on the internet.

"It is a real wake-up call to how older jihadists can prey on vulnerable young people.

"Mosques have done a lot but they need to do more in terms of telling young people what is acceptable and what is not in Islam."

Munshi, who is the grandson of a senior Islamic sharia judge, was groomed by terrorist Aabid Hussain Khan, 23, who was jailed last month alongside postman Sultan Muhammed, 23, both from Bradford.

He was arrested on his way home from a GCSE chemistry exam in 2006 and found with two small bags of ball-bearings - a key component of a suicide vest.

Anti-terrorist officers also discovered notes about how to make napalm, detonators and grenades on his computer, which he had forwarded on to Khan.

Now 18, he was found guilty last month of compiling information likely to be useful in terrorism.

Sentencing him to two years in a young offenders' institution, Judge Timothy Pontius said Khan and others had taken advantage of Munshi's youth.

"It is regrettable and tragic that you find yourself in court on such a serious charge," he said. "You have brought very great shame upon yourself, your family and your religion.

"In the light of the evidence, I have no doubt that you, amongst others of similar immaturity and vulnerability, fell under the spell of fanatical extremists.

"They took advantage of your youthful naivety in order to indoctrinate you with pernicious and warped ideas masquerading as altruistic religious zeal.

"Were it not for Aabid Khan's malign influence I doubt whether this offence would ever have been committed. Yet there is no doubt that you knew what you were doing."

Harendra de Silva QC, defending, said the schoolboy had been subjected to "grooming and manipulation" by others who were "more criminally inclined".

He said Munshi's relatives were "devastated" by what had happened "not least because of the shame that it has brought upon this very upstanding family".

His grandfather is Yakub Munshi, president of the Islamic Research Institute of Great Britain at the Markazi Mosque in Dewsbury.

Mr Munshi said afterwards: "All of us feel there are lessons to be learnt, not only for us but also for the whole Muslim community in this country.

"This case demonstrates how a young impressionable teenager can be groomed so easily through the internet to associate with those whose views run contrary to true Muslim beliefs and values."

The trial heard how Munshi, a pupil at Westborough High School in Kirklees, West Yorkshire, had a library of videos, documents and audio clips showing acts of Jihad, Mujihadeen fighting and Al-Qaeda preachings.

He conversed regularly online with Khan, described as the "Mr Fix-it" of the terrorist world, and they had discussions about how to smuggle a sword past airport security.

Khan had links to several other cells, including jailed terrorist, Mohammed Atif Siddique and alongside Muhammed, he assembled a dossier on 15 members of the Royal Family.

Khan was jailed for 12 years and Muhammed jailed for 10 years last month.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Sep 2008 20:20

Churchill's anti-Gandhi mentality revealed!

Winston Churchill: Secret conversations reveal views on Stalin and Gandhi
While researching his new book, Andrew Roberts discovered extraordinary secret documents recording every Cabinet conversation of our wartime prime minister. His views on 'jocular’ Stalin and 'bad man’ Gandhi force us to reassess history.

Last Updated: 8:22PM BST 19 Sep 2008

It was a wet Friday afternoon last year, and I was about to take the train back to London when it happened. The Churchill Archives in Cambridge were preparing to close, and I had finished working on the files I’d requested for my research on my new book, about the grand strategy of the Second World War.

I’d love to pretend it was archival genius, or undue diligence, that encouraged me to take down the catalogue for the papers of Lawrence Burgis, but to be honest it was sheer serendipity. That and curiosity, because the name meant nothing to me in an archive that is otherwise stuffed with the papers of the political and military giants of the twentieth century.

The catalogue stated that Burgis had been an assistant to the deputy secretary to the War Cabinet between 1939 and 1945, a junior post that mainly consisted of taking notes at meetings, which were then drawn up for the cabinet minutes before being burnt in the grate of the War Cabinet offices in Whitehall. Because the staff at the Churchill Archives are super-efficient, I decided to order up a file that simply stated December 1941, to see if it had anything interesting to say about the attack on Pearl Harbour that month. At best I was expecting copies of the opaque, deliberately uninformative Cabinet minutes that for decades have been publicly available at the National Archives at Kew.

When it arrived soon afterwards, the brown file tied up with string contained scores of yellow pages written in a crabby calligraphy, employing a shorthand code and hieroglyphic-like marks throughout. The stain of rusty paper-clips and general mustiness of the documents implied that historians had worked through these obscure papers of a minor civil servant since they were deposited at the archive on Burgis’s death in 1971.

'WC: address entirely new sit: to wh: existed last week,’ I read under a large '10/XII’ on a page opened at random, 'disaster in Pac. Pearl Har taken by surprise – maltreated. J complete control Cape Town to Van.’ It was at that moment that I realised that Lawrence Burgis had broken the 1911 Official Secrets Act, and had kept his verbatim notes of Winston Churchill’s War Cabinet. '10/XII’ meant the Cabinet of Wednesday, 10 December 1941, when 'WC’ – ie Winston Churchill - reported the events of three days earlier at Pearl Harbour. He was telling his colleagues that they had to address an entirely new situation to that which existed last week, for what was at stake was nothing less than Japanese control of the whole area between Cape Town in South Africa and Vancouver in Canada.

If Burgis had kept the verbatim report for December 1941, I wondered, had he also kept them for all the War Cabinets in which he had sat in as a note-taker? The catalogue seemed to suggest as much, so there could be thousands of such pages, detailing word-for-word what everyone, not just the Prime Minister, had said in Britain’s most senior decision-making body [+italics] throughout the Second World War. [-italics]

Lawrence Burgis (pronounced 'Burgess’) was, according to the diarist James Lees-Milne, 'the last serious attachment of Lord Esher’s private life’ (although it was unreciprocated). When Esher and Burgis first met – it is not known how – Burgis was a seventeen-year-old schoolboy at Ing’s School, Worcester, and the fifty-seven-year-old Reginald, 2nd Viscount Esher, was a former courtier to Queen Victoria and perhaps the best socially connected man of Edwardian England.

Burgis was 'alert, intelligent and eager to learn’, and it was down to Esher that he secured a place on the staff of the Cabinet Office before the end of the Great War. That he knew he was breaking the law in not destroying his notes is evident from his unpublished autobiography, also amongst his papers, in which he explicitly stated that he kept his actions secret.

Burgis certainly had an eye for history. 'To sit at the Cabinet table at No 10 with Churchill in the chair was something worth living for,’ he wrote. 'Perhaps some would have paid a high price to occupy my seat, and I got paid for sitting in it!’ He was proud to have been the only person besides Churchill and Field Marshal Jan Christian Smuts to have been present at the War Cabinet meetings of both world wars. He certainly hugely admired Churchill, and was certain that had the Germans invaded Britain in 1940, the prime minister 'would have mustered his Cabinet and died with them in the pill-box disguised as a WH Smith bookstall in Parliament Square’.

Burgis’s verbatim reports tell us a great deal about the way the War Cabinet worked, about why Churchill could dominate it and about how the soldiers and politicians interacted as decisions were made upon which the lives of tens of thousands depended. Speaking openly because they never expected their annotated remarks to survive the Cabinet Office fireplace, ministers argued passionately - and on occasion vehemently - for their view of grand strategy to prevail. Now, sixty-five years later, we can finally know what they said word-for-word. Our appreciation of many key decisions of the Second World War now need to be reassessed.

It is impossible to continue to argue, for example, that Franklin Roosevelt was merely naïve about the true nature of Stalinism during the Yalta Conference of February 1945, whereas Churchill was much more nuanced and doubtful. In fact Burgis records Churchill telling the first War Cabinet after his return from the Crimea that, 'Stalin I’m sure means well to the world and Poland. Stalin has offered the Polish people a free and more broadly based government to bring about an election; I cannot conceive any government has the right to be treated like that. Stalin about Poland said, 'Russia has committed many sins about Poland – pacts and partitions – it is not the intention of the Soviet Government to do such things but to make amends.’ Stalin had a very good feeling with the two Western democracies and wants to work quite easily with us. My hopes lie in a single man, he will not embark on bad adventures. Re: Greece – Stalin was jocular.’ Words that would have embarrassed Churchill deeply by the time of the Berlin airlift three years later were to stay hidden for six decades.

On 26 October 1942 the War Cabinet discussed the rumour that had appeared in the Press that Rudolf Hess had had 'friends in the War Cabinet’, who had persuaded him to make his dramatic flight to Britain in May 1941. In reply to calls from the South African premier Jan Smuts and Sir Stafford Cripps to publish everything the Government knew about the flight, Churchill said: 'Hess arrived, hot from Hitler’s entourage, and came to do great service for Germany at great risk. He wanted to be conducted to the King to say that we had no backing here and get a Government of the pro-Munich complexion installed. Hess was suffering from melancholia. We tried to make him talk. He gave us last chance for peace with Germany and the chance of joining Hitler’s crusade against Russia. But he never said a word about his Cabinet friends who he had come to see. He had once met the Duke of Hamilton.’

A minister then suggested that the Government should 'Make [the] records available’, to which Churchill’s answer was 'No’. As a result, conspiracy theories about the Hess flight therefore swirled around until the papers were finally released somewhat piecemeal half a century later in the 1990s.

On another occasion, Churchill told Smuts: 'You are responsible for all our troubles in India – you had Gandhi for years and did not do away with him.’ To which Smuts replied: 'When I put him in prison – three times – all Gandhi did was to make me a pair of bedroom slippers.’ When the Mahatma went on hunger strike during the war, Churchill told the Cabinet: 'Gandhi should not be released on the account of a mere threat of fasting. We should be rid of a bad man and an enemy of the Empire if he died.’ Grigg then said that Gandhi was getting glucose in his orange juice, and another cabinet minister said 'he had oil rubbed into him which was nutritious’, allowing Churchill to claim that 'it is apparently not a fast merely a change of diet.’

Churchill usually wanted to adopt the most extreme option. In response to the Lidice massacre in Chelmno, Czechoslovakia – in which the Nazis had killed hundreds of villagers in retribution for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich – the prime minister 'suggested wiping out German villages (three for one) by air attack’, proposing that one hundred bombers would be required to drop incendiaries from low levels in bright moonlight on three unprotected German villages, with the reason announced afterwards. If it was 'thought worthwhile’, Churchill would give the RAF discretion to carry out such a raid 'to fit it in when they can’. On this occasion the Cabinet blocked him, and the prime minister concluded: 'I submit (unwillingly) to the view of the Cabinet against.’

On 30 March 42 Lawrence Burgis took down Churchill’s comment about Hitler’s invasion of Russia, after Brooke estimated that it would cost Germany as many as two million German casualties, 'It came from God – we did nothing about it.’ He added that the 'War can’t end in 1942, but optimistically in 1943.’ Far too optimistically, as it turned out, but in the end the Eastern Front was to cost Germany over three million casualties and was to break the back of the Reich. The bombing of Germany in June 1942 encouraged Churchill to observe that he could not see why 'the disgusting stertorous slumber of the Boche should remain undisturbed,’ and on another occasion, urging that the size of bombs to be dropped on Germany be increased, he complained: 'We might as well drop roasted chestnuts.’

Whether the question was of sparing Heinrich Himmler after the war, or using gas against Germany, or describing Poland as, 'These heroic people dogged by their maladroitness in political affairs for three hundred years’, or explaining why he never parachuted – 'I would break like an egg’ - Churchill always occupied centre stage. Suddenly literally hundreds of new Churchill quotes, anecdotes, apercus and jokes have appeared, courtesy of the diligent note-taking of a man few people had ever heard of before today.

Through Lawrence Burgis’ shorthand emerge fine and moving speeches that we never before knew that Churchill ever gave. On his return from Washington in January 1942, for example, having conferred with Franklin Roosevelt, the prime minister reported to the War Cabinet how 'the last thing the President said when he came to see me off was “To the bitter end, trust me.” We are suffering heavy blows but the United States is setting about the war with great vigour. They have jumped right into it. There is a sense of resolve to fight it on. They have tactical ideas of war, Hitler is the enemy, they will do what can re: Japan, but nothing will get in the way of defeating Hitler.’

“Masters and Commanders” by Andrew Roberts will be published by Allen Lane, RRP £25. Available from Telegraph Books for £23 + £1.25 p&p. Call 0870 428 4112 or go to books.telegraph.co.uk. Andrew Roberts will be discussing his book at The National Army Museum on Tuesday 23rd September.

Zin · Post by **Zin** » 20 Sep 2008 20:30

Here is the link for that news.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... andhi.html

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 21 Sep 2008 20:27

ramana wrote:If Britianistan comes about...

Its not going to happen.

Several things have happened - Muslim migration has reduced, while immigration from the EU has massively increased.

The demographics are clear - the Muslim population of the UK will peak at around 7% (ie doubling their current share), worst case scenario. The median case scenario is an increase to 5%.

We even have figures like Lord Nazir Ahmed, who used to be the Islamists best friend in the establishment recently calling for limitations on visas for arranged marriages to non-citizen spouses/fiances - one of the main immigration routes for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. He has described them as economic migrants who dont fit in, and what is most interesting is that he has not received a lot of vituperation from British Muslims for saying it.

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 22 Sep 2008 00:45

Johann wrote:
ramana wrote:If Britianistan comes about...
Its not going to happen.

Several things have happened - Muslim migration has reduced, while immigration from the EU has massively increased.

The demographics are clear - the Muslim population of the UK will peak at around 7% (ie doubling their current share), worst case scenario. The median case scenario is an increase to 5%.

We even have figures like Lord Nazir Ahmed, who used to be the Islamists best friend in the establishment recently calling for limitations on visas for arranged marriages to non-citizen spouses/fiances - one of the main immigration routes for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. He has described them as economic migrants who dont fit in, and what is most interesting is that he has not received a lot of vituperation from British Muslims for saying it.

Johann, the question is whether the native british have the stomach to enforce the queens law on the mini-darul-islams, at 7% muslim

(Incidentally my calculations for residual India show the mean estimate at 17% and the maximum islamic plateauing level is 19%)

IMHO, currently for british natives, even 2% muslim is critical mass to start riots,
whereas in residual India, it takes a minimum of 15% to start islamic riots

IMHO, recruiting sikhs and gurkha police platoons to enforce the law as in north ireland is needed

BTW what is your max islamic demographic estimate for France, Netherlands and Belgium
Is it 30%?
Consider the impact of French nukes falling into the hands of muslim immigrants legally?

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 22 Sep 2008 12:17

Hi G.S.,

- Just to clarify that 7-8% is by 2050.

It is very hard to create meaningful predictions in places like France, Belgium, Netherlands etc because unlike the UK, US or India there is very little detailed demographic data by ethnicity.

Immigration, and immigration policy plays a much bigger factor in determining the EU's eventual Muslim population than in India. Relatively small changes in numbers even a few years out from now would create a significantly different demographic mix by 2050. The smaller the country, the more important a factor this is, and hence the more unpredictable. If there is no change (and that is very unlikely), then yes, Holland and Belgium could look radically different.

With France it is certainly possible that by 2050, that Muslims may be in the worst case 20+% of the population. It should be remembered that most black Muslims in France are very different from the Arabs (or for that matter Pakistanis and Turks), coming from a background which is only nominally Islamic.

- Does your estimation of India's projected Muslim population include illegal immigration from Bangladesh? What level are you assuming, and are you assuming it will hold steady?

- The UK has not seen rioting on the French scale, or Belgium.

- Yes, the public mood amongst educated Britons favours the ultra-PC approach in dealing with Muslim sensitivies, but it is the nature of moods to swing. We are starting to turn a corner. And ironically the people who are responsible for that are the ever larger numbers of a mix non-white Britons (including large numbers of educated young Muslims who want to escape self-ghettoisation), and non-British white immigrants who are fed up with white british guilt and paralysis.

- Is the UK going to see larger urban Muslim ghettoes? Quite likely. But I want to make an important point here - Most of these areas of deprivation depend on publicly provided housing. That gives the government a *great* deal of leverage. If these ghettoes become too unmanageable, there will eventually be broad public support for redistributing Muslims more evenly in public housing across the country, in the way that Singapore uses public housing to prevent any potentially troublesome group from concentrating beyond a limit.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Sep 2008 14:11

Johann

on the east european thing - it seems that they are leaving as fast as they appeared (as per The Economist), so maybe their effect will be neutralised? what is more pressing is the need to turn the PC corner as you put it and start saying enough is enough. I wonder if the Tories will have the stomach to take it on? Labour has long been the champion of PC-ness, atleast at the party apparatchik level. It is a murky area re personal liberties et al., but it seems to me that white working class resentment is brewing and simmering. its in no ones interest to have it boil over

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 22 Sep 2008 21:58

Lalmohan,

- 'Native' working class resentment is about *all* immigration, EU and non-EU, skilled and unskilled. In particular what's driving it is the pressure that these massive volumes of EU immigration are putting on services like schools and hospitals, not to mention property prices and the chance of owning that first home, or the job market.

Its not going to 'boil over' because on both the established left and right there's growing recognition over the inroads that the UK Independence Party (traditional conservative and anti-EU), Independent Working Class Association(radical left, anti-yob, anti-racist but also anti-Islamist) and BNP (radical right, anti-coloured, now largely anti-Muslim) etc are making in local council elections in 'native' working class areas. Those votes matter to politcal parties.

- The issue of setting norms within the educated classes is quite separate from the political competition. The educated in Britain care a great deal about the *conditions* of the working class - thats what made Dickens an instant classic. But they have never given a toss for the actual *opinions* of the working class, and hold them in often unconcealed contempt. That is the essence of noblesse oblige.

Guilt and oversensitivity are the norms that began to take hold amonst the ruling classes after WWI, and were fully established in the tidal wave of change in the 1960s and 1970s, percolating down to the middle classes just in time for the end of the cold war.

But Britain's educated and ruling classes are changing - they are no longer exclusively white. That means its becoming harder for those classes to be dominated their particular obsessions (whether guilt or prejudice). Non-whites may have used such guilt to have their merit recognised, or in some cases even to advance beyond their merit, but now that they're in they want things to run riight. They want the silly season to end, and some sort of sensible balance returned. They will succeed.

- As far as eastern european immigration, its not very different from the eras of peak emmigration to the US (ie before 1914). In that era as many as one in three returned home for one reason or another - there were times when the rates were even higher because of a saturation of labour and housing markets, etc. It didnt prevent a substantial demographic change. Its very similar in the UK now, with a temporary saturation point thanks to economic cycles. But the long term trend will remain barring catastrophic changes of course.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 23 Sep 2008 03:53

G Subramaniam wrote:
Johann wrote: Its not going to happen.

Several things have happened - Muslim migration has reduced, while immigration from the EU has massively increased.

The demographics are clear - the Muslim population of the UK will peak at around 7% (ie doubling their current share), worst case scenario. The median case scenario is an increase to 5%.

We even have figures like Lord Nazir Ahmed, who used to be the Islamists best friend in the establishment recently calling for limitations on visas for arranged marriages to non-citizen spouses/fiances - one of the main immigration routes for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. He has described them as economic migrants who dont fit in, and what is most interesting is that he has not received a lot of vituperation from British Muslims for saying it.
Johann, the question is whether the native british have the stomach to enforce the queens law on the mini-darul-islams, at 7% muslim

(Incidentally my calculations for residual India show the mean estimate at 17% and the maximum islamic plateauing level is 19%)

IMHO, currently for british natives, even 2% muslim is critical mass to start riots,
whereas in residual India, it takes a minimum of 15% to start islamic riots

IMHO, recruiting sikhs and gurkha police platoons to enforce the law as in north ireland is needed

BTW what is your max islamic demographic estimate for France, Netherlands and Belgium
Is it 30%?
Consider the impact of French nukes falling into the hands of muslim immigrants legally?

Europeans are different from Hindus in India. They do not suffer from a pacifist religion and a Nehruvian guilt. They will accept things, but when things get out of had, there will be a rapid change. Very different from India, where 100 000 Hindus were allowed to be ethnically clensed, and the mastermind behind the Parliament shootout has his penalty suspended.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 23 Sep 2008 04:54

It is very interesting to read about this historical trio:Churchil, Gen Smuts and Gandhi.

During the fiercest of the Boer war campaign, General Smuts was the brain behind the Boers' combat operations while we could safely say Churchil -who was a soldier fighting in the same war for the crown -was fiercely fighting for the British.

If the two had met in the field it is forgone conclusion that each would have tried to bludgeon the other to death and Gandhi was a volunteer in the Ambulance Corp rescuing wounded and dead British soldiers in that same conflict.

Had Smuts met Gandhi then, he would have decried that it was Gandhi's fault that Churchil was still alive and lording over the Indians as well as the Dutch South Africans.

The ironies and fortunes of history.

And history kept these three figues in a roundabout way in the same loop for half a century.

Avram

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 23 Sep 2008 07:00

Johann, referring to IM demographics

In NFHS-1-1993 and NFHS-2-1999,
IM fertility is greater than Dalit, Tribal, Rural, Illiterate and Very Poor
Excess IM Fertility is 30% in NFHS-1, 22% in NFHS-2

NFHS = National Family Health Survey

In NFHS-3-2004, IM Fertility is less than Dalit, Tribal, Rural, Illiterate and Very Poor
and Excess Fertility for IM is 15%

The 0-6 cohort of IMs in 2001 census is 16%
Assuming by the time this cohort grows up, Fertility would have converged,
would mean an optimistic scenario of 16% IM by 2050 ( stabilisation )

A more realistic scenario would raise it to 17% by 2050

BSF is reporting that the 70% complete bangladesh border fence has already cut down infiltration by 80%
( meaning they are catching a lot less BD illegals these days )

A more pessimistic scenario would maybe add, 3% more muslims to make it 20%
steady state

Now the interesting part is this, the 20% is not evenly spread out
West Bengal, Kerala and Assam, the most islamised states, also have the biggest IM
fertility advantage

In the 0-6 cohort, IMs are 44% of Assam and 33% of kerala and West Bengal

I am looking at erstwhile yugoslavia, where the commie Milosevic, suddenly became a
serb nationalist under the threat from islam

In kerala, there are already clashes between CPI-M and NDF ( a SIMI front )
Nandigram massacre was done by CPI-M on IM peasants

IMHO, as the islam % increases, despite the secularism of the CPI-M leaders
on the street level CPI-M cadres will soon be in clashes with islamists

IMHO, the worst case scenario, by 2050
is islamic secession of Assam, West Bengal, Kerala and JK
leaving a rump residual India with 12% muslim

IMHO, the biggest strategic plan of islam is demographic warfare
( terrorism is actually counter-productive )
Once islam is demographically contained well short of critical mass
Islam goes into a crisis, it cannot expand
( almost no one converts to islam )
At the point of demographic containment, islam will face an existential crisis
like communism in 1990

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Sep 2008 13:25

Grandmaster of the spy thriller,John le Carre on the erosion of British civil liberties.

"We have been taken to war under false pretences, and stripped of our civil rights in an atmosphere of panic. Our lawyers don't take to the streets as they have done in Pakistan.

"Our MPs allow themselves to be deluded by their own spin doctors, and end up believing their own propaganda."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... rties.html

John le Carré: Britons have been 'stripped' of civil liberties
Britons have been "stripped" of their civil liberties amid an "atmosphere of panic" over the threat from terrorism, according to the novelist John le Carré.

By Nicole Martin and Christopher Hope
Last Updated: 12:36AM BST 23 Sep 2008

John le Carré. The writer has been an outspoken critic of Labour's erosion of civil liberties Photo: GETTY

In a rare public intervention, the spy author criticised ministers for voting to extend the time limit that terror suspects can be held without charge to 42 days.

His comments come only weeks ahead of a key vote in the House of Lords that could see peers throw out the Government's controversial 42-day proposals.

The writer, who admitted he has a reputation as "an angry old man", said he was furious that the Government had been allowed to get away with a sustained attack on civil liberties.

"Partly, I'm angry that there is so little anger around me at what is being done to our society, supposedly in order to protect it," said the 76-year-old in an interview in Waterstone's magazine.

"We have been taken to war under false pretences, and stripped of our civil rights in an atmosphere of panic. Our lawyers don't take to the streets as they have done in Pakistan.

"Our MPs allow themselves to be deluded by their own spin doctors, and end up believing their own propaganda."

He added: "We haul our Foreign Secretary back from a mission to the Middle East so he can vote for 42 days' detention.

"People call me an angry old man. Screw them. You don't have to be old to be angry about that. We've sacrificed our sovereignty to a so-called 'special relationship' which has nothing special about it except to ourselves."

The writer has been an outspoken critic of Labour's erosion of civil liberties.

He was one of several figures from the arts and academia who wrote to Gordon Brown in March to protest at the 42-day detention limit.

The open letter, which was also signed by author Iain Banks and fashion designer Vivienne Westwood, warned that "relations could suffer if the Muslim community appears to be ... targeted for prolonged pre-charge detention".

Campaigners and opposition MPs are suggesting that the terror vote in the House of Lords on October 13 will be tight.

Shami Chakrabarti, the director of the civil rights group Liberty, said: "Mr le Carré is not a lone voice.

"Forty-two days has become totemic of the biggest assault on all our hard won rights and freedoms. It is a shame that it takes a writer of fiction to give the Government a reality check."

Le Carré said his book, A Most Wanted Man, explores the struggle to find a balance between individual rights and state security and "how far Germany will go in imitating our mistakes."

The novel, published today, tells the story of a half-Chechen, half-Russian Muslim refugee who is living in Hamburg and being tracked by a series of special agents, who suspect that he may be plotting a terrorist attack.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 23 Sep 2008 13:45

The brits are so paranoid about the Asians and i guess the muslims that they alienate alot of people. yesterday, while walking towards trafalgar square, I clicked a picture of the horse guard parade as were other Europen tourists. Suddenly, I was swamped by 3 officers on the square and asked to give details. they filled a stop and search warrant along with clicking me.
I told them, this is racial profiling as there were Europeans too. I guess they got a little relieved when i told them that I am an Indian but hey were insistant to know my family name, which i dont keep due to ideological reasons. It left a very bad taste in the end

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Sep 2008 14:10

chandrabhan wrote:The brits are so paranoid about the Asians and i guess the muslims that they alienate alot of people. yesterday, while walking towards trafalgar square, I clicked a picture of the horse guard parade as were other Europen tourists. Suddenly, I was swamped by 3 officers on the square and asked to give details. they filled a stop and search warrant along with clicking me.
I told them, this is racial profiling as there were Europeans too. I guess they got a little relieved when i told them that I am an Indian but hey were insistant to know my family name, which i dont keep due to ideological reasons. It left a very bad taste in the end

on the other hand, be glad that the security services are keeping tabs on brown folk incase one of "us" is a bum-carrying-jehadi. its the price we have to pay in these sad times because of our rabid cousins. perhaps you'd like to ride the underground one of these days and sit next to a bearded young man with prayer beads and a large backpack? how comfortable will you feel then?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Sep 2008 16:28

Chandrabhan Ji though a bit embarassing but that alertness keeps the public safe at large. Racial profiling is not that bad as people make it out. Fact is after the Delhi bombs and IM emails, it is obvious the raids will be carried out amongst muslims..makes no sense raiding Jains and Hare Krishna's in such cases. Indians get caught in this just on outer looks, but remember their target is Paki's trying to practise fundamentals of the 'religion of peace'. As you mention there was some relief after you gave your nationality. Best is to cooperate with agencies politely.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 23 Sep 2008 16:59

Absolutely. The whole idea of profiling to figure what kind of people can end up exploding bombs and keep an eye on them. Unfortunately Our next door neighbors look quite a bit like us (Though they wont agree) and we Indians end up enjoying the courtesy of security agencies.
As someone said, it is no use keeping a eye on Japanese guy if your typical suicide bomber is a bearded,skull cap wearing PPO (Person of Paki Origin) national.
I would rather be racially profiled than to end up as some statistics on govt death count log.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 23 Sep 2008 20:34

I think some of us are underestimating the killer instinct of brits. Both brits and Islamists have a history of loot, murder and plunder. But when you compare these two civilizations point by point, brits emerge superior in this regard. Unlike us Indians, brits are not very tolerant people. UK does not have a system that protects minorities from the bigotry of majority whites. As such, it will be very easy to crush Islam in UK.

I am sincerely sympathetic towards the plight of innocent Muslims in UK.

harik · Post by **harik** » 23 Sep 2008 20:59

Karan Dixit wrote:I think some of us are underestimating the killer instinct of brits. Both brits and Islamists have a history of loot, murder and plunder. But when you compare these two civilizations point by point, brits emerge superior in this regard. Unlike us Indians, brits are not very tolerant people. UK does not have a system that protects minorities from the bigotry of majority whites. As such, it will be very easy to crush Islam in UK.

I am sincerely sympathetic towards the plight of innocent Muslims in UK.

Karan , that was hilarious post, tell me why ?