Should we discontinue EVMs?

[shiv]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/64711.html

Most electronic voting isn't secure, CIA expert says

This is a planted and patently false story to further the social engineering plans of the West, funded by the dying churches of America. See any upside down map of the world for clarity.

[Virupaksha]

So say 50% of EVMs are stored in district warehouses and 50% in CEC warehouses.

You say don't make it so.

I asked you to PROVE THAT. Ask the Gandhinagar District collector and find out how many units were under his custody, and how many under the CEC custody. Ask, or file a PIL.

Till you prove that your argument of central storage of EVMS don't stand.

Then there is the issue of setting the old machine with the correct counts. Until you provide a solution for that your "CIA Replaced the machines" argument doesn't stand. The one you gave, ie connect a PC won't work. Connecting a robot to punch buttons won't work either, because the robot will be big, and it still takes at least 20 seconds to cast one vote.

Dileep, you are missing the point. It is NOT rahul who has to prove that EVM is incorruptible. It is the EC which has to. RM or any other can rise ten thousand or million doubts, it is the duty of the EC to prove otherwise. Dont shift the onus of responsibility. The onus today rests with EC and EC alone. They are asking us to believe that some machine is incorruptible, why should we unless we can test it in hazaar ways?

Or, let EC take my proposal. EC should make complete chip design, byte code and software public. Immediately after the end of counting, the losers can have 1-3 EVMs of their choice to do whatever they like on camera, offcourse paying the cost of replacement.

Today the EC has chip design, byte code , software private and is asking us to believe it. If you want to believe guys like Navin Chawla, its your call. I wont.

[Dileep]

ok, not kv rao, but some xyz who goes by the name Indersen or Ravan or Inderjit. Who cares for the name of that bureacrat. So now my previous statement looks

you want me to believe some non-descript bureocrat Indersen as incorruptible and all-knowing

What difference did it make to the import of my statement? Do you want me believe him as all-knowing and incorruptible? If you want to believe that Santa Claus exists and pigs fly, who am I to say no?

So, one Mr. Kailash who came on TV, with absolutely no credentials about his educational or professional background has more credibility than three professors, with known credentials. That is fantastic logic.

I have read completely the report. You should read carefully. It bases the absence of trojan horses on the basis that every key pressed is recorded, as though what can be written by such a dumb machine cannot be erased.

All these are discussed to death in the past pages. Read them and raise any new points you have.

[shiv]

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Paper ballots cost no more than Rs 70 cr, or perhaps less than Rs 35 cr.

.

This is a plot to destroy India's forests. Already Dandakaraya forest is a mere corner of Matwatis farmyard, between two statues. Soon our forests will be stuffed into ballot boxes because "it is cheap" to do so and India's history and heritage will be denied.

[Virupaksha]

Added: Read the scenario again. The power consumption will be caught as a defect in the chip. It is standard procedure to verify the power consumption of samples from every lot of custom ICs. It is done because it gives a direct verification of the correct silicon process, EMC damages etc. We have in fact rejected chip lots based on power consumption issues, which were subjected to severe FEMA and traced to handling problem of the chips.

I am talking post checks, boss. Replace during storage?

It is also standard to run benchmarks for processors through JTAG.

Also, the presence of the extra microcode, and its interconnect will be readily visible, and the chip size itself will be bigger. Readily verifiable by anyone who cares.

visible to whom? Is the EC doling out election EVMs so that anyone can check? chip size bigger, lol yes what is the increase in bytes required, two control statements and three memory locations. So in total exactly 5 bytes. Possibly you can see them today in the quad-core GB processors available. Please accept my apology as I cant see the "increase" in size of a quad-core processor with 2 GB to 2 GB 5 bytes memory. The increase in size of this processor is equal to the increase in size of this chip. I cant see that increase, thanks but not thanks for this offer.

[Virupaksha]

All these are discussed to death in the past pages. Read them and raise any new points you have.

and no where have I seen even a satisfactory answer.

All I have seen is, it is not trivial. So what if it is not trivial? Is having a govt of your choice in a country like India worth that effort, this is the benefit. The cost -benefit ratio of doing such a non-trivial effort is astronomic. Is it worth 5 crores? 10 crores or is it 100 billion dollars. Even that outweighs the cost-benefit ratio.

[Dileep]

Dileep, you are missing the point. It is NOT rahul who has to prove that EVM is incorruptible. It is the EC which has to. RM or any other can rise ten thousand or million doubts, it is the duty of the EC to prove otherwise. Dont shift the onus of responsibility. The onus today rests with EC and EC alone. They are asking us to believe that some machine is incorruptible, why should we unless we can test it in hazaar ways?

No, you miss the point. It is Rahul's responsibility to back up his allegations, with technically and logically sound reasoning. If the reasoning is sound, then the EC need to explain how its machines are not affected by that.

Some Kailash guy comes on TV and claims that the EVMS could be affected by "wireless". Now that shows how credible his allegations are, isn't it?

Or, let EC take my proposal. EC should make complete chip design, byte code and software public. Immediately after the end of counting, the losers can have 1-3 EVMs of their choice to do whatever they like on camera, offcourse paying the cost of replacement.

That is not going to happen. Then EC will have to field a big team to endlessly refute the claims. What is possible is to get it done by a panel of professors, nominated by an all party committee. If all parties agree, what is the problem?

[Dileep]

I am talking post checks, boss. Replace during storage?

That is equal to replacing the whole EVMS, even more difficult, because you have to open, de-solder and re-solder.

visible to whom? Is the EC doling out election EVMs so that anyone can check? chip size bigger, lol yes what is the increase in bytes required, two control statements and three memory locations. So in total exactly 5 bytes. Possibly you can see them today in the quad-core GB processors available. Please accept my apology as I cant see the "increase" in size of a quad-core processor with 2 GB to 2 GB 5 bytes memory. The increase in size of this processor is equal to the increase in size of this chip. I cant see that increase, thanks but not thanks for this offer.

Read the whole thread please. We are talking about the "microcode" on the chip, not the "executable program". The microcode that monitors the registers, detects the key-press from a pattern (which is impossible BTW), do the calculation, and write the RAM.

Then, please support the claim of 5 instructions. Please post the assembly code that does the corruption here. You can use ANY instruction set, even pseudocode. And show that you can do it within 5 instructions.

Get your facts right. There is no quad core in the EVM. It runs on a simple small microcontroller.

[Dileep]

All I have seen is, it is not trivial. So what if it is not trivial? Is having a govt of your choice in a country like India worth that effort, this is the benefit. The cost -benefit ratio of doing such a non-trivial effort is astronomic. Is it worth 5 crores? 10 crores or is it 100 billion dollars. Even that outweighs the cost-benefit ratio.

There are much simpler ways to influence a govt. that is why.

I am for EVM because it prevents the petty local politician from rigging the ballot. I believe the outcry is because of exactly that reason.

I don't believe CIA is out there to rig the elections in India to install a govt of their choice. But the fear of the local politicians rigging is very much there.

[Virupaksha]

Dileep, you are missing the point. It is NOT rahul who has to prove that EVM is incorruptible. It is the EC which has to. RM or any other can rise ten thousand or million doubts, it is the duty of the EC to prove otherwise. Dont shift the onus of responsibility. The onus today rests with EC and EC alone. They are asking us to believe that some machine is incorruptible, why should we unless we can test it in hazaar ways?

No, you miss the point. It is Rahul's responsibility to back up his allegations, with technically and logically sound reasoning. If the reasoning is sound, then the EC need to explain how its machines are not affected by that.

This is where you and I differ. I say Ceaser's wife should be beyond doubt, you say there can be doubts on her.

I have a doubt whether my vote is being properly recorded or not(after following the correct voting procedure)? Now whose duty is it to ensure it, its the EC and EC alone. Dont dump it on RM or any other person.

But to back his allegations, he needs to be provided with the actual voting machines used immediately after counting. Is the EC providing it? Nope, so EC has to investigate each and every allegation whether small or large.

Some Kailash guy comes on TV and claims that the EVMS could be affected by "wireless". Now that shows how credible his allegations are, isn't it?

Who the heck is this Kailash guy? I give exactly the same amount of care to this Kailash as I gave to that Indersen. Both in my eyes have the same amount of credibility.

Or, let EC take my proposal. EC should make complete chip design, byte code and software public. Immediately after the end of counting, the losers can have 1-3 EVMs of their choice to do whatever they like on camera, offcourse paying the cost of replacement.

That is not going to happen.

That we are going to have a govt which doesnt care about religion or caste of me is not going to happen. That we are going to see an incorruptible govt or incorruptible EC is not going to happen.................................

Doesnt mean it is correct or we dont have the right to ask to for it and protest the wrongs happening now.

Then EC will have to field a big team to endlessly refute the claims. What is possible is to get it done by a panel of professors, nominated by an all party committee. If all parties agree, what is the problem?

Which ALL parties are agreeing. BJP has doubts, TDP has doubts, some congress members have doubts. So what agreeing are you talking about.

All the professors can do is theorize on stuff what can happen with good samples, i.e. hot air, but how do you check on ground?

I have to say this, after I did my back of envelope cost calculations in last page, I see NO reason why we should have EVMs instead of ballot paper unless the EC comes out transparantly instead of the opaque and easily corruptible processes right now.

[Virupaksha]

There are much simpler ways to influence a govt. that is why.

agreed, but having the power to elect anyone of your choice?? stopping your opposition guy to come to power all the while giving the look of democracy?

I am for EVM because it prevents the petty local politician from rigging the ballot. I believe the outcry is because of exactly that reason.

It stops the petty local politician but gives the big guys all the power. Basically centralization of power, corruption and money -nothing more.

I don't believe CIA is out there to rig the elections in India to install a govt of their choice. But the fear of the local politicians rigging is very much there.

Why CIA, sir? Would nt Navin Chawla and rajmata want to get reelected? What is the amount of money which they will willing spend for achieving it?

[Rahul Mehta]

Ravi_ku, Krishnan,

With small extra cost, EVM can hold 100,000 votes or even million votes. Memory is dirt cheap. But still, we cant use more than one EVM for more than 1000 voters or 1500 at most. Why? Because if one voter takes 30 seconds to vote, then at most 120 votes per hour can be polled in one hour. And booth is open for 8 to 10 hours max. So we need one EVM for about 1000-1200 voters.

.

[Dileep]

But to back his allegations, he needs to be provided with the actual voting machines used immediately after counting. Is the EC providing it? Nope, so EC has to investigate each and every allegation whether small or large.

No. The allegations should be rational and technically sound to begin with. Allegations like "wireless access" are ridiculous on the face itself.

Who the heck is this Kailash guy? I give exactly the same amount of care to this Kailash as I gave to that Indersen. Both in my eyes have the same amount of credibility.

I am referring to the TV clip that mupalla has posted, and in response I mensioned the Indiresan report.

Then EC will have to field a big team to endlessly refute the claims. What is possible is to get it done by a panel of professors, nominated by an all party committee. If all parties agree, what is the problem?

Which ALL parties are agreeing. BJP has doubts, TDP has doubts, some congress members have doubts. So what agreeing are you talking about.

If you can't read and understand the English language, I can't help you. Read my post again.

BTW, I really appreciate your "guru bhakthi"

[Dileep]

Got diverted a bit, thanks to ravi_ku's late entry.

So, the only scenario standing yet is add microcode to the chip at the suppliers end. The scenario of whole EVM replacement is pending RM's response to the two questions. (central storage, and replacement of the old machines back)

The microcode argument is also almost dead, because it would be readily detectable. It would be detected for sure at the incoming inspection at BEL, and it can be verified any time in the field by de-soldering an IC and running a test.

And ravi_ku owes the 5 instruction assembly code.

[Virupaksha]

No. The allegations should be rational and technically sound to begin with. Allegations like "wireless access" are ridiculous on the face itself.

Yes, they are not rational or technically sound if the EC allows the machines to be opened, which it is NOT. If not, can you guarentee and prove it me that no "wireless access" device has been planted in ANY EVM?

Who the heck is this Kailash guy? I give exactly the same amount of care to this Kailash as I gave to that Indersen. Both in my eyes have the same amount of credibility.

I am referring to the TV clip that mupalla has posted, and in response I mensioned the Indiresan report.

Where did I mention anywhere about this Kailash?

Then EC will have to field a big team to endlessly refute the claims. What is possible is to get it done by a panel of professors, nominated by an all party committee. If all parties agree, what is the problem?
Which ALL parties are agreeing. BJP has doubts, TDP has doubts, some congress members have doubts. So what agreeing are you talking about.

If you can't read and understand the English language, I can't help you. Read my post again.

BTW, I really appreciate your "guru bhakthi"

Possibly Dileep, you cant read english or understand what I wrote. You are talking about some hypothetical scenario of an all party meet agreeing to BS, otherwise known as hot air. I am talking about what is happening on ground.

About "guru bhakthi" sir, all I can say is, I know enough technology to know what is possible and what is not. Unlike you though in the computer science only, I recognise technology not as an end but as a means. So if EVMs work, so be it. If not, try some thing else. If it is going back to stone age of carving things on stone, so be it. I need to get my vote properly registered. If it is on stone or EVM, I see it as a means. I do not have any "EVM bhakthi" like many people seem to have not recognising that EVM is only a means and if it is replaced by XYZ, the heavens wouldnt fall.

P.S: Who is this mine so called guru? Dont say it is RM

[Virupaksha]

And ravi_ku owes the 5 instruction assembly code.

for providing that you owe the EVM assembly code

[Dileep]

Ravi, you are entitled to your opinions about your professors (being hot air, as you mentioned), and I appreciate that "bhakthi", but that is OT.

You are also entitled to your opinions about the CEC and the political leaders. You are entitled to your demands of having the vote as you please.

But when you come to technical matters, your or mine opinion doesn't count. You come to the realm of what is physically and technically possible. It is upto the qualified people to comment and judge that. The professors at reputed institutions like the IITs are the obvious choice for adjudgement in technical matters.

My proposal was a serious one. I will re-phrase it so that you understand it, and not lash out with something else. So, bear with me.

I propose the EC to call an all party meeting, asking them to nominate technically qualified persons of good repute to an expert comittee. Let the EC disclose all the necessary information to that committee. Let the committee check:

1. Was the existing machines corrupt?
2. Is it possible to corrupt the existing machines without detection
3. Set procedures for audit of the system
4. Give recommendation for future versions.

Now, this committee, being constituted from the recommendation of all parties, should be undisputed. You and RM might dispute in the personal capacity, but we are electing the parties, so, what the parties agree should be good enough for the election.

Now, you can come back and say, it is not going to happen ans what not. But IF it happens, would you be content?

[Dileep]

And ravi_ku owes the 5 instruction assembly code.

for providing that you owe the EVM assembly code

No. You don't need the EVM code. You need the interface specification. Here it is:

IO Port for reading the key status: 0x69
Memory address of vote count: int_16 array starting at memory address 0x7800.
Free RAM for your scratchpad worh: 0x9200.

Your code need to do the following:

1. Read the IO Port for keys
2. Wait for key combination 7,3,4,8 and read the next key as the target candidate.
3. If the key combination is found, thereafter, 70% of all further keys should increment the target candidate, and decrement that key's candidate.

Try it, indulge me please.

[Virupaksha]

1. Was the existing machines corrupt?

Which would mean checking each and every of the 10 lakh EVMs. This is what you asked, right?

2. Is it possible to corrupt the existing machines without detection

All types of detection including just keeping outer board same and changing each part inside with the latest technology available anywhere in the world. not like what the sham indersen committee talked, something not available in India so cant be done.

3. Set procedures for audit of the system

This is where I have the biggest grouse. Basically who polices the police, sort of thing?
include procedures which will be able to take care of even replacements after checking, basically checking after every election.

I have said, give all the power to the possible accusers (losing candidates) within reasonable limits, assuming everything is transparent.

4. Give recommendation for future versions.

yes

Now, this committee, being constituted from the recommendation of all parties, should be undisputed. You and RM might dispute in the personal capacity, but we are electing the parties, so, what the parties agree should be good enough for the election.

Now, you can come back and say, it is not going to happen ans what not. But IF it happens, would you be content?

yes, if you agree to my considerations and that the report itself is public. By the way did you consider the cost of first step?

regarding the byte code, I can see that you have caught my cheeky 5 byte and hit it to sixer. It could be 100 byte, but does that change the size of processors today?


Dileep,
Now that I have agreed to what you have said, do you agree that EVMs as they are being run today are prone to manipulation?

[sanjaychoudhry]

Demo held to show EVM can be tampered with
17/07/2009 01:12:21 www.expressbuzz.com

HYDERABAD: Disputing with the Election Commission’s claim that electronic voting machines (EVMs) were absolutely tamper-proof, members of Jana Chaitanya Vedika (JCV), along with technical experts, demonstrated today that the machines were tamperable. “The EVMs currently used in elections are vulnerable and tamperable. It is possible to bring a particular political party into power by tampering the machines. Hence the need for the Election Commission to use ballot papers till the EVMs are made fool-proof. Our intention, however, is not for having ballot system in the country,’’ they said.

NetIndia managing director and technical expert Hari K Prasad, along with JCV president V Lakshmana Reddy, vice-president VV Rao and others, at a press conference here, conducted a mock, actual and modified polling and counting of votes to prove that the EVMs could be tampered with and a favourable result to a particular political party ensured. In one of the demonstrations, they made Lok Satta Party, at the request of mediapersons, gain maximum number of votes vis-avis other parties.

The EVM showed the LSP getting nine votes though it was polled only three (of the total 21 votes).

Programme of a chip could be fixed or set at the time of machine preparation or before the beginning of counting.

Only individual machines (EVMs) could be tampered with but not all the machines at a time, they explained.

They demanded implementation of e-governance policy to ensure implementation of `open standard’ mechanism relating to EVMs. Besides, they also sought development of `verification tool’ to check the programme that drives the EVM.

“We are ready to prove that the EVMs are tamperable if at all we get an access (to EVMs of Election Commission).

There are instances of EVM tampering in Orissa, Madhya Pradesh and some other parts of the country in the recent elections. In fact, there was 100 percent polling recorded in some booths in Andhra Pradesh where the votes polled went in favour of one party. Several petitions were filed in various courts in the country on such instances,’’ they said.

Asked about the PIL filed in the Supreme Court, Hari Prasad said the case, which would come up for hearing next week, was filed on technology aspect.

[Dileep]

Which would mean checking each and every of the 10 lakh EVMs. This is what you asked, right?

No. A reasonable amount of samples only. There are established laws of sampling.

All types of detection including just keeping outer board same and changing each part inside with the latest technology available anywhere in the world.

Wouldn't that the EASIEST to detect? One look at the board will show you that it is not what it is supposed to be?

This is where I have the biggest grouse. Basically who polices the police, sort of thing?
include procedures which will be able to take care of even replacements after checking, basically checking after every election.

I have said, give all the power to the possible accusers (losing candidates) within reasonable limits, assuming everything is transparent.

I am not suggesting anything. Let the committee, decide. After all, they are what the parties recommended right?

yes, if you agree to my considerations. By the way did you consider the cost of first step?

No, I won't agree to your suggestion. I will agree to the committee's suggestion. My question is, would YOU?, and would Rahul Mehta?

regarding the byte code, I can see that you have caught my cheeky 5 byte and hit it to sixer. It could be 100 byte, but does that change the size of processors today?

Now that is laid to rest, we are talking about "embedded microcode" and its associated circutry to interconnect it to the registers and IO. We are not talking about the "machine code", sometimes incorrectly called "assembly code" (the MOV, ADD type code) here. A single machine code instruction will have a number of bytes of microcode, and associated circuitry.

For example, the simple mnemonic ADD A,B may have the following microcode sequence:

Set path from register B to ALU, argument 1 register.
Clock register B into ALU
Set path from register A to ALU, argument 2 register.
Clock A into ALU
Set command symbol on the command symbol register
Set path from command symbol reg to ALU command symbol
Clock into ALU
Activate ALU.
Set path from ALU result register to register A
Clock result into A
Set path from ALU flags to FLAGS register
Clock flags.

In machine code, it takes one byte. In microcode, it will take at least 12.

Now, go back to my original problem, and try to write it in microcode. How many bytes? Each of those bytes are 8 flip-flops. Then there is interconnect to all the registers, memory and IO access. Add all up, and compare with the original microcontroller (take a reference to the 8 bit PIC or Atmega chip).

You will understand that it is very significant.

[Dileep]

Demo held to show EVM can be tampered with
17/07/2009 01:12:21 http://www.expressbuzz.com

HYDERABAD: Disputing with the Election Commission’s claim that electronic voting machines (EVMs) were absolutely tamper-proof, members of Jana Chaitanya Vedika (JCV), along with technical experts, demonstrated today that the machines were tamperable. “The EVMs currently used in elections are vulnerable and tamperable. It is possible to bring a particular political party into power by tampering the machines. Hence the need for the Election Commission to use ballot papers till the EVMs are made fool-proof. Our intention, however, is not for having ballot system in the country,’’ they said.

NetIndia managing director and technical expert Hari K Prasad, along with JCV president V Lakshmana Reddy, vice-president VV Rao and others, at a press conference here, conducted a mock, actual and modified polling and counting of votes to prove that the EVMs could be tampered with and a favourable result to a particular political party ensured. In one of the demonstrations, they made Lok Satta Party, at the request of mediapersons, gain maximum number of votes vis-avis other parties.

The EVM showed the LSP getting nine votes though it was polled only three (of the total 21 votes).

Programme of a chip could be fixed or set at the time of machine preparation or before the beginning of counting.

Only individual machines (EVMs) could be tampered with but not all the machines at a time, they explained.

They demanded implementation of e-governance policy to ensure implementation of `open standard’ mechanism relating to EVMs. Besides, they also sought development of `verification tool’ to check the programme that drives the EVM.

“We are ready to prove that the EVMs are tamperable if at all we get an access (to EVMs of Election Commission).

There are instances of EVM tampering in Orissa, Madhya Pradesh and some other parts of the country in the recent elections. In fact, there was 100 percent polling recorded in some booths in Andhra Pradesh where the votes polled went in favour of one party. Several petitions were filed in various courts in the country on such instances,’’ they said.

Asked about the PIL filed in the Supreme Court, Hari Prasad said the case, which would come up for hearing next week, was filed on technology aspect.

Sure, I too can rig up a microcontroller system, write the software, and do any demo. I also can replace the controller on the EVM unit and demo anything as I please.

The amount of scaremongering and disinformation strengthens my conviction that the parties hate it because they can't rig it.

[Virupaksha]

Sure, I too can rig up a microcontroller system, write the software, and do any demo. I also can replace the controller on the EVM unit and demo anything as I please.

The amount of scaremongering and disinformation strengthens my conviction that the parties hate it because they can't rig it.

or because only the central govt can rig it

[Dileep]

Sure, I too can rig up a microcontroller system, write the software, and do any demo. I also can replace the controller on the EVM unit and demo anything as I please.

The amount of scaremongering and disinformation strengthens my conviction that the parties hate it because they can't rig it.

or because only the central govt can rig it

No. If there was any malpratice, there would have been leaks. Even now, after the strong parties are hell bent to prove it, absolutely no leak, let alone proof has come out.

What we hear is all how it can be done. No one, not even a chaiwala, has given a single piece of claim that it has been done. Have you seen any Ravi?

Remember, it will be the death of INC if it comes out, and the other parties will give anything for that leak. You don't need proof. You just need to claim that you do. You can get pretty much anything in return for that information.

Still, no one, absolutely no one, knows about it. Isn't it strange?

Added: I repeat my promise. If it is proven that there was widespread malpractice by corrupting the EVMs, I will print out these pages and eat them, and post the video on youtube.

[Virupaksha]

No. If there was any malpratice, there would have been leaks. Even now, after the strong parties are hell bent to prove it, absolutely no leak, let alone proof has come out.

What we hear is all how it can be done. No one, not even a chaiwala, has given a single piece of claim that it has been done. Have you seen any Ravi?

Do you know anyway to test it? Have any of the opposition parties given any EVM to test? How will they prove it? Were those rigging previously caught on camera?

keep the source code secret, keep the EVMs secret in a lock where only EC can open. All I see is secrecy, somebody should talk something about transperency.

Remember, it will be the death of INC if it comes out, and the other parties will give anything for that leak. You don't need proof. You just need to claim that you do. You can get pretty much anything in return for that information.

Still, no one, absolutely no one, knows about it. Isn't it strange?

Dont make me laugh. In India, death of INC because of rigging.

Sir, the main opposition party of India couldnt even get the recorded tapes to be put on television, which were recorded on their bidding and had to resort to putting money on parliament table. Which media house will give any air waves for this, even if they have proof? Whom do you expect to dissipate the information?

It is not strange because no one except the EC can open the EVMs.

[Dileep]

Do you know anyway to test it? Have any of the opposition parties given any EVM to test? How will they prove it? Were those rigging previously caught on camera?
keep the source code secret, keep the EVMs secret in a lock where only EC can open. All I see is secrecy, somebody should talk something about transperency.

It would be a very tight operation to avoid leaks on such a widespread operation. That falls into the same "outlandish" claims.

Dont make me laugh. In India, death of INC because of rigging.
Sir, the main opposition party of India couldnt even get the recorded tapes to be put on television, which were recorded on their bidding and had to resort to putting money on parliament table. Which media house will give any air waves for this, even if they have proof? Whom do you expect to dissipate the information?
It is not strange because no one except the EC can open the EVMs.

INC may not die, but it will be a severe blow to them, and no party will avoid that chance.

AFAIC, no leaks, even after all these noises, means there was none.

[Virupaksha]

AFAIC, no leaks, even after all these noises, means there was none.

There are two things
i) that manipulation can be done
ii) manipulation is being done.

That evidence of (ii) is absent doesnt mean (i) cannot be done or even (ii) is not being done.

Similar to Paki terrorism in Kashmir. No evidence of state support is accepted nor any physical support is being given to Kashmiri "freedom fighters", if you want to believe that, its your call.

If absence of evidence is determination of absence for you. Let us agree to disagree on this issue. I believe that EVMs can be manipulated but no tests are allowed on them and thus cannot believe whether or not my vote is being properly registered.

[Sanku]

BEL etc should audit always. I would scream for it till I died if I was at EC/BEL, irrespective of whether BJP or anyone else won.

A clear test plan is the corner stone of all engineering.

The simplest audit will be give the losers (all those who earn deposit money back/top 3-4 of a parliamentary constituency) to be able to choose 1 to 3 EVMs of his choice and ask to test however he wants getting any experts or equipment he needs all captured on camera. This will stop any accusations other than replacement of EVMs. Those who wants to avail of this facility will have to pay for replacement costs of EVMs.

But for this it will require that the complete design, source code, firmware code of EVMs to be open source. Why is the EC afraid to do this simple thing.

Basically instead of the EC saying we "know" that EVMs are fool-proof, shift the onus of proof burden to the otherside, saying prove that EVMs are not fool-proof. If any vulnerabilities are found in this testing, they can be rectified up in the next iteration.

The thing is Ceaser's wife has to be beyond doubt.

No, read what I said carefully. I would hope to god that BEL etc are not so far gone in engineering to not use a test plan. I am talking of engieering issues here. I am not asking for candidates to speak on microcode. The result will the garbage that we are seeing on these pages.

As it is there is a mock voting based testing for EVMs just before the polls in presence of all concerned.

The theories here are just as possible as AIT.

[Sanku]

Guys cut out the duragrha. The chances of a centralized rigging of EVM is just as much as that of each person in EC being sold to Congress and no one knowing about it.

[Pranav]

All the EC members are congress appointees, no?

Guys cut out the duragrha. The chances of a centralized rigging of EVM is just as much as that of each person in EC being sold to Congress and no one knowing about it.

[Tanaji]

ravi_ku,

I have been beating EVM-lovers black and blue on cost comparison. Despite repeated chest beating, these guys are so dheedh that they dont respond.

Look at today's newspaper. Take one whole sheet out i.e. 2 pages or 8 A4 sheets. One paper rim has 500 pages. How much is the RETAIL price of such rim? Rs 300 only. How much do offset printers charge for printing one newspaper page size page? Rs 70 for 1000 i.e. 7 paise per sheet as big as newspaper page. Look at your later printer paper. How muich does it cost? Rs 120 for 500 sheets A4 size only. And these all retail prices for small quantities. For 15,00,000 ballots, costs would be half or even less.

Do the maths whichever way you like. Ballots dont cost more than 50 paise per ballot or Rs 1 at most.

---------------

[Chest beating ON]

Hai koi mai kaa laal EVM-lover willing to comment on relative costs of paper vs EVM assuming EVM's 10 years

[Chest beating still ON]

More fraud from you. You have been shown to be a LIAR in this thread, yet you are back.

You claim that you are a Rutgers graduate. So it is inconceivable that you do not understand that there are other costs involved such as

• Cost of transporting the ballots which is more than EVM
• Additional cost of personnel and their pay for counting
• Additional cost of people in back office that keep track of all this

Plus there are other intangibles such as instant results and massive reduction in invalid votes. With a rapidly growing voter base, EVM allows flexibility in growth and counting that is simply not afforded by paper ballots.

I am sure you are aware of the above, yet the very fact that you choose to ignore it is proof of the fact that you are truly one of the NBJPRIE. You hate EVMs because like a Neta that you are, have understood that EVMs are difficult to hack, so your game is up. You hate EVMs because like a babu you have understood that it is now difficult to engage in typical sloth and hiring of cronies in cushy positions, so your game is up. I could go on...

IF you had any ethics left whatsoever, you would admit that calculating the cost of a ballot by multiplying cost of paper + printing with no. of ballots is beyond ludicrous and insults the intelligence of a 10 year old. That you wont, speaks volumes about you.

If you truly wanted to compare the costs you would try to use RTI to get the costs from EC. But then like a true Babu , you think RTI is "useless". If that was not possible you would use some other approach. Here is one that I thought up:

• Find out the cost of elections in the past
• Find out the proportion of EVMs used in each elections
• Use rate of inflation, total voters, polled votes in each election to come up with a trend or projection that predicts how much a election where no EVMs were used at all would cost today.
• Add to that the intangible advantages mentioned above.

The very fact that you dont do any of these things is proof positive that you are one of the chief NBJPRIE of all, a fraud and a false prophet that claims to bring deliverance but in reality no different than the others.

[Tanaji]

AFAIC, no leaks, even after all these noises, means there was none.

There are two things
i) that manipulation can be done
ii) manipulation is being done.

That evidence of (ii) is absent doesnt mean (i) cannot be done or even (ii) is not being done.

Similar to Paki terrorism in Kashmir. No evidence of state support is accepted nor any physical support is being given to Kashmiri "freedom fighters", if you want to believe that, its your call.

If absence of evidence is determination of absence for you. Let us agree to disagree on this issue. I believe that EVMs can be manipulated but no tests are allowed on them and thus cannot believe whether or not my vote is being properly registered.

As I have stated before, why is it that you can trust your and your loved one's *LIFE* and your *wealth* to entities that have

• Never ever disclosed their code or have had audits
• Have a vested interest in cutting costs as much as possible, to the extent of making tradeoffs of potential liability with cost of fixing the design
• Have histories of delivering faulty, hackable code
• Have been roundly condemned by one and all for insecure design and practices

and yet, raise such a hue and cry because the EC has not let you audit its EVM?

It is an interesting security choice that you are making... I dont know about you, but for me, the life of my loved one is more important than my vote (yes, I am not patriotic if you want to go down that path). So whats the big deal of no audits??

Don't get me wrong, I am the first one to say EC should do an audit. But no amount of audits is going to satisfy anyone whose mind is already made up that EVMs are insecure.

[Pranav]

Are the EVM supporters on this forum opposed to using EVMs which print out paper receipts like ATMs? These can be verified by the voter and then deposited in a ballot box. If one likes the whole process can be recorded with a cheap digital video camera.

I think having EVMs with a paper trail will satisfy most EVMs opponents. Then there is some back-up in case of any candidate having doubts.

I think the Congress will bitterly fight against paper trails with every means at their disposal, but neutral and open minded people ought have no objection to having EVMs which print out paper trails.

[Pranav]

It is an interesting security choice that you are making... I dont know about you, but for me, the life of my loved one is more important than my vote (yes, I am not patriotic if you want to go down that path). So whats the big deal of no audits??

Nobody can take control of 1/6th of humanity by taking the life of your loved one. But that's what is at stake with EVM code.

[Tanaji]

Are the EVM supporters on this forum opposed to using EVMs which print out paper receipts like ATMs? These can be verified by the voter and then deposited in a ballot box. If one likes the whole process can be recorded with a cheap digital video camera.

Please note that most of us are not "supporters" in the strictest sense. What gets my goat (and probably Dileep's and Sanku's as well) is the usage of technically incorrect, impossible and fantastic theories as trotted out by Rahul ("CIA agents replacing boxes") that deft time and space laws in an attempt to malign the EVM. If one came out and said he did not trust the EVMs because there has been no real security audit, I can understand. But when someone says the current EVM has been hacked either by the CIA or Congress using a fantastical theory of replacing the ROM chip etc... then it does raise my heckles.

Your idea is good and it provides a paper trail. My only comment is how do you propose to solve the issue of lugging around an extra printer, its associated supplies and power requirements in an Indian context where polling officials use horses, elephants etc in some cases?

[Tanaji]

It is an interesting security choice that you are making... I dont know about you, but for me, the life of my loved one is more important than my vote (yes, I am not patriotic if you want to go down that path). So whats the big deal of no audits??

Nobody can take control of 1/6th of humanity by taking the life of your loved one. But that's what is at stake with EVM code.

Boss, what percentage of people in the world use a computer directly or indirectly for a financial transaction or fly an aeroplane, car, bus or train or ship?

[Pranav]

Boss, what percentage of people in the world use a computer directly or indirectly for a financial transaction or fly an aeroplane, car, bus or train or ship?

You would notice the fraud pretty quickly on your bank or credit card statement. Not much motive in sabotaging cars etc. As regards EVMs, stakes are much higher and no audits are being allowed.

[Pranav]

Your idea is good and it provides a paper trail. My only comment is how do you propose to solve the issue of lugging around an extra printer, its associated supplies and power requirements in an Indian context where polling officials use horses, elephants etc in some cases?

No big deal, these things can be done. The important thing is that the elections have to be seen to be fair by all otherwise you will have a civil war which will make Kashmir look like a picnic.

So the EVMs with paper trails will mollify both those who are afraid of ballot box stuffing and also those who are afraid of Rajmata, Navin Chawla and their foreign backers.

So all those of honourable intentions should be happy. Congress supporters can be expected to oppose but then that will have to be overcome.

[Tanaji]

Boss, what percentage of people in the world use a computer directly or indirectly for a financial transaction or fly an aeroplane, car, bus or train or ship?

You would notice the fraud pretty quickly on your bank or credit card statement. Not much motive in sabotaging cars etc. As regards EVMs, stakes are much higher and no audits are being allowed.

Er, you are absolutely trusting your life to Boeing/Airbus when you fly. The motive there is cutting costs... money is the biggest motivator there is.

[Muppalla]

All the EC members are congress appointees, no?

Guys cut out the duragrha. The chances of a centralized rigging of EVM is just as much as that of each person in EC being sold to Congress and no one knowing about it.

Pranav,

I want to tell you again very respectfully that rigging EVMs via hacking is almost not possible with a two bit CEC and few salaried (even motivated) employees at ECIL and BEL and Election Commission. It got to be something like in the Sci-Fi movies only. They may have planned since 2006 in the jungles of Tennessee under the shadows of Baptist Church or Seventh Day Advintist Church .

The chances of EVM-hacking fraud happening is at the foundries of the vendors and in conjunction with the trojanized randomizing software.
A lot of folks who works/in the technical area and are passionate about their knowledge think that this is a long shot possibility. But I think this the most probable and sensible route that Congress party may have taken rather than all the other things like using collectors, ECIL/BEL employees, EC officals, bulk replacement of EVMs etc.

Public verification and validation of the above is necessary so that the so called devil-in-brains of public or the INC will exit the scene. In addition, at the least EC for transparency sake should do the following:
1) put out the list of all vendors and their components in the EVM and related material
2) who wrote the software and if out sources then why this < 1000 line software should be even outsourced (justification is needed)