International Military Discussion

[Singha]

biggest slab of fat in opex terms are probably the 18 Ohio SSBN and 12 CVBG.

a downsizing to 10 Ohio and 7 CVBG would also reduce the high number of Tico/Burke class carrier escorts and frigates/aux ships needed.

they can also rationalize and close dozens of bases around the world.

the gigantic reserve forces like national guard AF reserve can be reduced now that WW3 is not imminent. scrapping those 1000s of planes and their
repair bill would itself save billions.

[Austin]

S-400 Part I
S-400. Part II

[svinayak]

they can also rationalize and close dozens of bases around the world.

This will show that super power in nanga. The hardware is to keep up with the image. It can never be reduced

[Austin]

Some stuff I came on EMP weapons , this thing looks good for Special Ops

MOSCOW, August 5 - RIA Novosti. Russian scientists have created a device the size of a small suitcase that can instantly put out of action all the electronic components of weapons systems the enemy, told RIA Novosti in an interview with a member of the Council under the President of Russian Federation for Science and High Technology academician Vladimir Fortov.

What principles form the basis for super-weapons?
Currently, all systems are equipped with weapons radioelectronic components. If you have a powerful and compact source of radio emission - a powerful, in our opinion, this is one gigawatt (GW), the entire electronics of the enemy at a time can be inferred from the order. But there is in the arsenal, and device, switch off the electronic equipment for a short time - 20 minutes, for example, during a special operations ", - said the academician.

What are the dimensions of the device?
We have created a device the size of a small briefcase and has a capacity of one GW.For comparison: GW of energy - these are two queues "DneproGES" or a Chernobyl reactor. There are developments on the sources of radiation, covering one kilometer away, there is - in the 200 meters ", - said Vladimir Fortov.

The device operates only on the enemy's electronics?
Unfortunately, to be locally derived from the damaged equipment is not only the enemy, but all electronic devices civilians. But when the war has already begun - more important than victory.

How long can work this miracle-weapon?
"Approximately one second - more is not required to fully bring out all the electronic components of the enemy, including radar, night vision, electronic sights, mobile communications, as well as receivers of satellite navigation GPS. At a distance, you can stop the tanks, shoot down the course fighter aircraft, disrupt radio-personnel mines ", - concluded academician.

[abhishek_sharma]

Independent panel declares the military needs more of everything

A copy of "Final Report of the Quadrennial Defense Review Independent Panel," available here

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts ... everything

[abhishek_sharma]

Why the QDR's independent panel makes good, common sense on U.S. defense

http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2 ... us_defense

It is powerful statement that a group of 20 senior officials who have served Democratic and Republican presidents agreed that "The [U.S.] force structure needs to be increased in a number of areas, including the need to counter anti-access challenges; strengthen homeland defense, including cyber threats; and conduct post-conflict stabilization missions. It must also be modernized." They call for an increase in the size of the U.S. Navy, the acquisition of a next-generation bomber, and new long-range strike systems. They also acknowledge that although the Defense Department must do everything it can to achieve cost savings on acquisition and overhead, "substantial additional resources will be required to modernize the force. Although there is a cost to recapitalizing the military, there is also a price to be paid for not re-capitalizing, one that in the long run would be much greater."

The report also tackles the sensitive issue of the Defense Department's rising personnel costs, noting that "A failure to address the increasing costs of the all-volunteer force will likely result in a reduction in the force structure, a reduction in benefits or a compromised all-volunteer force."

[Austin]

S-300PMU2 Favorit

Considering Chinese have just completed taking 15 battalion of this SAM , its worth looking at it

To sum its capability in one sentence it can attack 36 targets with 72 missile out to a range of ~ 200 km and can intercept target capable of doing Mach 8.

[Philip]

S-400 and S-500 are the way to go!

Huge defence cuts expected as the new UK govt. refuses to foot the bill outside the Def.budget for the Trident SSBN strategic deterrent.Frankly,Britain's Trident nuclear deterrent in the current context of a trend towards nculear disarmament by the two major N-powers,the US and Russia,make the possession of a large N-deterrent like Britain's Trident subs-5 of them,a luxury that it cannot afford.It would be better if Britain operated just 3 SSBNs and built just one large carrier for the time being.Having "lost an empire",searching for a role in the 21st century,Britain cannot hope to be "Deputy" to "Marshal " Sam on the strength of its economy.NATO's current role fighting a war in the Indian subcontinent in Afghanistan is ludicrous and the costs of that disastrous mistake are now coming home to roost in the beggared capitals of Europe.

Excerpts:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... -bill.html

Armed forces stunned by Trident bill
Defence chiefs have been left stunned and angry by the Treasury's refusal to finance the £20 billion cost of replacing Britain's ageing nuclear deterrent.

By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
31 Jul 2010

The Sunday Telegraph has learned that Liam Fox, the defence secretary, had assumed that the huge cost of replacing Britain's four ageing Trident submarines would be met by the Government Photo: CHRISTOPHER PLEDGER In a break with historical precedent, George Osborne, the Chancellor, has ruled that the entire cost of the new system must be found from within the day-to-day defence budget.

The ruling has caused disarray within the Ministry of Defence where officials are already struggling to find cost savings of 20 per cent – or £7 billion – from next year's budget.

Related Articles

George Osborne: Trident is not exempt from budget cuts
Our overseas aid bill could pay for Trident
£20bn replacement for Trident submarines in doubt as MPs warn US missiles may not fit
Liam Fox: cuts could play 'fast and loose' with national security

Major capabilities such as Britain's two new aircraft carriers may now be axed or delayed, the number of Joint Strike Fighter aircraft is set to be halved and a raft of RAF, Army and Naval bases will be closed in addition to other cuts, to fund the Trident replacement programme.

The Sunday Telegraph has learned that Liam Fox, the defence secretary, had assumed that the huge cost of replacing Britain's four ageing Trident submarines would be met by the Government because the nuclear deterrent is a "political" and not a "war fighting weapon".

One senior defence official said: "It's a stitch-up. There was absolutely no hint of this during the election. The armed forces have been knifed in the back by the Treasury.

"This has come out of the blue, almost like an afterthought. The impact on defence will be huge."

The Treasury ruling has lead to a public row between Dr Fox and Mr Osborne, who said of the defence budget: "All budgets have pressure.

"I don't think there's anything particularly unique about the MoD. I have made it very clear that Trident renewal costs must be taken as part of the defence budget."

The defence secretary immediately hit back warning that it will be impossible to maintain the MoD's other capabilities if it alone has to meet the full cost of the Trident replacement programme.

One senior Tory said: "This ruling has put Liam Fox on collision course with both the Treasury and David Cameron. It will all end in tears and they won't be the prime minister's".

Such are the financial pressures on the MoD that the four-submarine deterrent could be reduced to three or possibly two vessels to save money.

Under the new defence review, the entire Tornado fleet could be axed along with an armoured brigade, artillery regiments, the Nimrod MR2 anti-submarine fleet and RAF Kinloss.

The number of Joint Strike Fighters could be cut from from 150 to 75 and troops withdrawn from Germany.

One of Britain's two new aircraft carriers could also be cancelled.

Lord West, a former chief of the naval staff, and Lord Guthrie, who served as chief of the defence staff under Tony Blair, both said that the cost of funding the Trident replacement should be met by the reserve and not the defence budget.

Lord West said: "The historical precedent in recent years is that the cost for maintaining the nuclear deterrent should come from the reserve. The defence budget and not afford this extra cost.

"This will cause greater pain and more delays. I believe the nuclear deterrent is a vital part of this country's defence but it is a political weapon, it is a weapon of last resort and the cost has in recent year always been met by the government."

Lord Guthrie added: "I've no doubt in my mind that the government should pay for the nuclear deterrent. If it comes out of the defence budget there will have to be huge cuts to pay for it.

"Those cuts should come from equipment and not people. I for one do not believe the carriers are crucial.

"They did not have a role in East Timor, Sierra Leone, Iraq or Afghanistan. It is nonsense to say that Britain will lose its expeditionary capability if the Royal Navy doesn't have carriers.

"The Navy needs more, smaller, ships. We have to accept that we are no longer a super power but we can be the leader of a second tier of nations."

[Austin]

A fleet of 3 new SSBN based on Astute design with Trident missile and its replacement currently under works with US should be good , it depends how many do they want to keep it on patrol and they will not compromise their deterrence.

The CBG might be the one that will face the axe and the expensive but less capable JSF will be the other one.

[Singha]

but I thought they already have a fleet of new Vanguard SSBNs?

[Austin]

but I thought they already have a fleet of new Vanguard SSBNs?

This is a follow on to Vanguard class SSBN post 2020 and beyond , they would take nearly 10 - 15 years to design and develop these new class of SSBN if it gets approved this year.

[PratikDas]

Russia tests two intercontinental missiles

Sineva (from Wikipedia):
Weight 40.3 tonnes
Length 14.8 metres
Diameter 1.9 m
Engine three-stage liquid propellant
Operational
range 11,547 kilometres (7,175 mi)

Agni III (from Wikipedia):
Weight 44,000 kg
Length 17 m
Diameter 2.0 m
Engine Two stage solid propellant engine
Wingspan Unknown
Operational
range 3500 km - 5500 km

I know little about missile technology and despite the difference in the number of stages and the type of propellant, i.e. solid or liquid, there seems to be a quantum difference between the Agni III and the Sineva, which is 10% lighter and has twice the range.

Could some guru kindly enlighten?

[Jaeger]

^^The difference is simple: "We are peace-loving nation of SDREs onlee. We create raakits for peaceful purposes onlee. Our raakits are defensive onlee. We have lower nooklear stockpile than Somalia onlee."

Please toe the official line, you filthy kaffir.

[PratikDas]

lol Jaeger... reading you loud and clear.

[Chafford]

British Warrant Officer 'blown up' 15 times in Afghanistan:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... times.html

[abhishek_sharma]

Russia lists U.S. violations of START-1

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/08/stories ... 661700.htm

[Dmurphy]

Iran claims to have smuggled anti aircraft missile systems into country
With the recent warming up of relations with NATO allies, Russia seems to be grazing with the sheep and hunting with the wolves here!

[Austin]

Russia lists U.S. violations of START-1

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/08/stories ... 661700.htm

Germ agents

The Russian Foreign Ministry said the U.S. violated the Biological Weapons Convention by developing new germ agents and refusing to provide information on a network of its military bio-centres in Indonesia, Thailand, Peru, Egypt and other countries.

The U.S. authorities failed to prevent 1,500 leaks of radioactive materials and nuclear weapons-related information, including one case in 2006 when confidential data from Los Alamos National Laboratory landed in the hands of a drug dealing criminal group.

Interesting why would US have bio-centres in Indonesia ,Thailand , Peru and Egypt ? Would US secretly test Bioagent or anti-dote on citizen of these countries ?

What happened to proliferation ayatollahs who would at the slightest news of leaks from other countries would sanction but would turn a blind eye on Nuclear Proliferation from their own backyard

[Austin]

Iran claims to have smuggled anti aircraft missile systems into country
With the recent warming up of relations with NATO allies, Russia seems to be grazing with the sheep and hunting with the wolves here!

All this warm up of relations between Russia ,NATO , US etc is just to ensure Russia does not supply key air defence system and other conventional arms to Iran and to pressure Iran to give up its weapons program considering Russia is a supporter of Iran.

Russia understands that once Western countries achieve their objective it will be back to their own dirty games specially the US , it has not forgotten NATO agression in former Yugoslavia and break up of Serbia when she was weak and not to mention the recent Georgia aggression at the instance of White House

So though it is in Russia and UN interest that Iran does not acquire Nuclear Weapons , but it has to ensure that Iran does not turn into another Iraq in the region which will hurt the Western interest more if that happens.

[Singha]

a video of the worlds heaviest mortar on a tracked vehicle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_F-W4aB ... re=related

the vintage footage showing a red army mortar team is interesting...guys firing mortars like having tea and pakoras hand over fist.

and ya allah here is a far more efficient looking system - the german Wiesel...has the sharpness of a meerkat and
the alert nature of a fennec fox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qln3hVoe ... re=related

[Dmurphy]

So though it is in Russia and UN interest that Iran does not acquire Nuclear Weapons , but it has to ensure that Iran does not turn into another Iraq in the region which will hurt the Western interest more if that happens.

While thats true, secretly proliferating advanced missiles this way will only brazen Iran up - which runs straight into the face of what Russia wants.

IIRC, Russia had asked NATO to reimburse them for the profits they've lost by not selling Iran the S-300s. Looks like the cheque bounced,

[Austin]

While thats true, secretly proliferating advanced missiles this way will only brazen Iran up - which runs straight into the face of what Russia wants.

IIRC, Russia had asked NATO to reimburse them for the profits they've lost by not selling Iran the S-300s. Looks like the cheque bounced,

Yes some analyst has calculated banning will mean economic loss of $13 billion
link

But come to think about it , It is fair for Israel to stockpile nuclear weapons , it is fair for US to look on the other side when Pakistan was arming to teeth with nuclear weapons with Chinese assistance but when it comes to Iran they apply different yard stick ? Its a strategic game and each side wants to protect its interest in the region

A few battalions of S-300 even if the news is true will not deter the US or Israel to attack iran if it wants to but the consequences of such attack will be truly priceless

[Dmurphy]

But come to think about it , It is fair for Israel to stockpile nuclear weapons , it is fair for US to look on the other side when Pakistan was arming to teeth with nuclear weapons with Chinese assistance but when it comes to Iran they apply different yard stick ?

C'mon now! You don't want an extremist ruled state to lay hands on Nukes, no matter how fair and morally and fundamentally right it appears to be from their POV.

[Austin]

C'mon now! You don't want an extremist ruled state to lay hands on Nukes, no matter how fair and morally and fundamentally right it appears to be from their POV.

No one wants Iran to go nuclear that is clear but no one in ME wants to see Israel keep nuclear weapons there is two different yard stick applied.

If Iran feels threatened by US and Israel considering the threat of pre-emptive strike you here day after day it feels more insecure and has more incentive to go nuclear and unfortunately it seems like that is what they have been doing covertly.

[RamaY]

^ I have no issue about Israel.

But US/West's perfidy in arming PRC and TSP cannot be ignored. Iran is their karmaphala.

[GeorgeWelch]

(moving discussion over from MRCA thread)

Yeah, did you read the rest of that sentence? The F-22 carries 4 missiles on top of the 2 1000lbs bombs the F-35 carries, and the F-35 is a "strike" aircraft? How much do each of these things cost now?

Again, the F-35 carries 2 2000lb bombs, ie twice as big as the F-22

Plus it still carries an additional 2 missiles

That said, I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

[Carl_T]

You're right, it does carry the 2000lb bombs. The point I'm trying to make is that this plane costs about as much if not more than the F-22, is not as stealthy or fast, and cannot carry the same armament.

[Singha]

how many 500lb bombs would the JSF be able to carry internally given the 500lb form factor? if it can manage 8, I'd say its a powerful strike platform. what took 1000lb yesterday can be done with 500 today.
if it can manage 6, its still passable.
4 would be too low to be acceptable.

but with this bombload, atleast 4 self defence missiles (2 bvr, 2 wvr) would be good.

[Singha]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... reIn_World

US planes to sell F-15 to saudis in a 10 yr $30b deal

[Singha]

BW:

July 21 (Bloomberg) -- A proposed U.S. arms sale to Saudi Arabia will include 84 new Boeing Co. F-15 fighter jets and may be valued at as much as $30 billion, according to a government official familiar with the plan.

The deal also calls for selling 72 UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters built by United Technologies Corp.’s Sikorsky unit and refurbishing 70 Saudi F-15s, said the official, who asked not to be identified because terms are still under discussion.

Navy Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa, director of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees foreign sales, said separately today that Congress may be formally notified “within two months” about the transaction, which he said includes jets, helicopters, ships and missile-defense systems. He said he couldn’t give specifics.

“There are three major efforts for Saudi Arabia -- aviation, Army missile defense-related and Navy,” Wieringa said in an interview at the Farnborough Air Show near London. “We have been working all those for about four years or so. Saudi is a key country for us and we continue to work hard.”

Negotiations were already under way in August 2007, when Wieringa’s predecessor, then-Air Force Lieutenant General Jeffrey Kohler, said in an interview that a sale to the kingdom might be valued at as much as $20 billion and include F-15s, Littoral Combat Ships and satellite-guided bomb kits.

Bolstering Allies

Completing the deal would be a step toward President Barack Obama’s goal of buttressing the defense capabilities of Middle East allies to counter Iran’s growing offensive missile might and suspected nuclear weapons program. It would be part of the Gulf Security Initiative started by the Bush administration.

The $30 billion total includes hardware as well as spare parts, training and support, according to the government official who asked not to be identified.

Saudi Arabia’s last significant U.S. weapons purchase was 72 F-15s in 1992, a transaction valued at as much as $9 billion. The last planes in that contract were delivered in November 1999.

The kingdom spent $36.7 billion worldwide on arms and support activities from 2001 to 2008, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service.

“I can’t go into specifics,” Wieringa said of negotiations surrounding the arms package. “When the two countries agree on a deal and Congress agrees, then I can talk about it.”

Notifying Congress

Notification of Congress usually occurs in three stages in such deals. First are preliminary discussions with members and staff of the Senate and House foreign affairs committees, followed by a 20-day “informal” notice. Those steps would be followed by a 30-day review period after which the Pentagon submits a formal notification. Congress could then reject all or parts of the package.

The U.S. has previously sold Saudi Arabia Boeing-built AWACS surveillance aircraft, Sikorsky’s UH-60 Black Hawks, Raytheon Co.-built Patriot and Hawk missile defense systems, and General Dynamics Corp.’s M1A2 tanks.

Boeing, based in Chicago, fell 70 cents, or 1.1 percent, to $63.18 in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. Hartford, Connecticut-based United Technologies dropped 51 cents to $67.03 as broad market indexes declined.

Iraq, Afghanistan

Wieringa said talks also are under way with Iraq on equipment to rebuild the country’s military forces.

“It parallels the broad discussions with the Saudis,” he said. “We have got efforts for their aviation, land forces and their navy.”

Army General Raymond Odierno, the outgoing commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, told reporters in Washington today the Iraqi government has formally requested 18 Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-16 fighter jets for delivery in 2013, a year when increased oil revenue should allow for the purchase and maintenance expenses.

The Pentagon agency will finish the year ending Sept. 30 with $37.8 billion in orders, Wieringa said. “Next year we could easily go to $50 billion or more,” he said.

If Congress approves, sales in the next fiscal year may include as much as $10 billion in arms to equip Afghanistan’s National Army and its police forces, Wieringa said. “It’s an extensive list of equipment,” he said without elaborating.

[AdityaM]

Last month I took this pic of singapore army missiles which were rehearsing for their national day parade.
can anyone identify them?
pic was taken from a moving cab
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3476/dsc04530s.jpg

[jai]

S-400 Part I
S-400. Part II[

Wish we could do another joint venture with Russia like the Brahmos to co produce the S 400T or the S 500 - mass produce and mass deploy..including on Navy ships..best way to keep the dragon in its cave ...Pukis will hopefully stop investing in their air force !

Apologies if OT.

[yantra]

BW:

July 21 (Bloomberg) -- A proposed U.S. arms sale to Saudi Arabia will include 84 new Boeing Co. F-15 fighter jets and may be valued at as much as $30 billion, according to a government official familiar with the plan.

....
The $30 billion total includes hardware as well as spare parts, training and support, according to the government official who asked not to be identified.

......
The kingdom spent $36.7 billion worldwide on arms and support activities from 2001 to 2008, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service.

........

So, the US should not be disappointed if they lose MMRCA (!). But why are the Saudi's buying so much? Israel!? Iran!? Iraq!? Or have they invested too much in Boeing/LM Stocks? Something more than it meets the eye. Gurus?

[abhishek_sharma]

Pentagon Plans Steps to Reduce Budget and Jobs

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/us/10gates.html

[Singha]

saudis buy in a balanced manner from US and EU to recycle petrodollars and keep both happy. tornados+F15 earlier, typhoon+F15 now.

a country with the population of NCR (around 27 mil) doesnt really need a airforce with 400 state of art fighters, but its just repayment for political and military cover by nato.

[abhishek_sharma]

What's really behind the Gates cuts

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts ... gates_cuts

[abhik]

BW:
....
If Congress approves, sales in the next fiscal year may include as much as $10 billion in arms to equip Afghanistan’s National Army and its police forces, Wieringa said. “It’s an extensive list of equipment,” he said without elaborating.

The packies aren't going to be happy with this >> , just hope they include Predator drones just to make them feel slighted.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Saudi Arabia's military purchases are not only to keep the US & EU happy and ensure their support, but also because of it's insecurity. Despite all the surface bonhomie, all the GCC states are insecure about each other. If Iran's in the picture, all of them team up against Iran who they are petrified of. You remove Iran, then Saudi and UAE have a spat, Saudi and Oman have a history of wrangling over territory.

With population growth outstripping oil revenue growth, a totalitarian regime, high income diversity, silent fission between the ruling family/political combine and the theocracy, we have all the ingredients of a system who will be only too glad to have an external threat to project before the audience.

[Brando]

Last month I took this pic of singapore army missiles which were rehearsing for their national day parade.
can anyone identify them?
pic was taken from a moving cab
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3476/dsc04530s.jpg

Those look like Hawk Missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-23_Hawk

[Craig Alpert]

Russia, US-Canadian Norad carry out first ever joint air drill