Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

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SRoy
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by SRoy »

RayC wrote:Indian culture is high on morals and pontification.

When reduced to action, it does not show.

All talk; no go!

That is what troubles me.

Where have all the good men gone?

Look at the pro Maoist chaps. High on moral claptrap, low on reality and no care of a proper administration that can deliver!

Self serving. Hit the limelight and forget everything else!

Nandini Sundar and Gautam Navalakha!

All big talk!

Maoist beheading is fine. Not govt action thereafter!

Odd!
Pro-Maoists are self-declared leftists and atheists and they don't hide their disdain for "Indian Culture".

You have managed to paint these characters with both the colours (Leftist/Maoist & Indic), which is quite a feat given average subject matter expertise available in this thread.

No explanation required, BTW.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by SwamyG »

RayC wrote: If you can read and understand what you write, you would realise the same!

Every other input in India is bogus, but the Indic!

Should be enough of an explanation, not that I have to give you one!

Quit acting moralistic and holy!

I don't flame bait. I control it. My job!

So, take it easy and look busy!
I have not written anything yet in BRF for you to keep accusing me. When i ask for explanation you continue to evade. Please look in the mirror before admonishing me for acting moralistic and holy - I have never painted myself as such. If you can not substantiate at least be courteous and stop your ad hominem arguments.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

SwamyG wrote:
RayC wrote: If you can read and understand what you write, you would realise the same!

Every other input in India is bogus, but the Indic!

Should be enough of an explanation, not that I have to give you one!

Quit acting moralistic and holy!

I don't flame bait. I control it. My job!

So, take it easy and look busy!
I have not written anything yet in BRF for you to keep accusing me. When i ask for explanation you continue to evade. Please look in the mirror before admonishing me for acting moralistic and holy - I have never painted myself as such. If you can not substantiate at least be courteous and stop your ad hominem arguments.
Look chum.

Not even in a strait-laced ji huzoor career have I been taken to be an evader. So, it would be hardly feasible to be one in a forum that does not affect me in the least.

Your holier than thou posts is adequate to prove the point.

So quit this whimpering of an innocent!

Enough of it.

Seek and ye shall find.

I am not your servant to fish out what you have written. Got that?

Search your heart!

I may not be Indic as per your definition, but I will say this sir, I am a fair man!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

SwamyG,

No temper tantrums please.

I have deleted your post.

Not worth that of this forum!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by SwamyG »

RayC:
I humbly protest. You are being totally unfair to me. I did not throw any tantrums. You know it !!!.

I have tried to bring a Constitutional perspective, an International perspective, a Marketing and Consumerism perspective to the discussions. I have been patient when you have been attributing claims that have no basis. Yet you go and delete my post.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Shalav »

RayC wrote:I have deleted your post.

Not worth that of this forum!
Just a thought, but in the interests of fairness and open discussion, shouldn't you NOT moderate where you are personally involved?

Let another moderator decide what is fair and in the interests of this forum.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Shalav wrote:
RayC wrote:I have deleted your post.

Not worth that of this forum!
Just a thought, but in the interests of fairness and open discussion, shouldn't you NOT moderate where you are personally involved?

Let another moderator decide what is fair and in the interests of this forum.
Deletion is a part of Moderation. Can't have a flaming row, can we?

Banning or warning is that what I leave to others.

I have mentioned what I did.

If I were a little sneak, I would have done that and pretend to be a nice chap without anyone knowing it.

Let us look at it another way. I find the poster irritating to my point of view. I don't say anything on the subject. Just warn and then ban! And sit back smug. I am not in Alice in Wonderland, nor the Quenn of Hearts or the Cheshire Cat! No sir, that is not my way. I want 100 flowers to bloom even if the smell is offensive! A free country and so ideas must flow. Even ideas that I am uncomfortable with has taught me a lot! I am here, first to learn and then to moderate. Moderation is secondary!

Have wise ideas left?

If you feel you are better, please apply for the job of a Moderator.

Each Moderator is condemned here, be it N3, Archan, Rahul M.

It is the crown of thorns we have to bear.

Good to have a wise head with 143 posts around here as yours to caution us!

Thank you, sir!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Shalav

Guess what.

Good to know that you keep changing you handle on the forum. 9 years around here? What were your handles?

That is what is called a chameleon!

A Bahurupee!

Whatever for?

One does not have to change his personality without reasons, unless there is something one wants to hide.

Got my message?


Oops I pressed the wrong button!

Call me Merlin!

I also see that you are using the hidden option!

Psychology says?

Do forgive me, I find it uncomfortable with folks who are not upfront! Hiding behind screens!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Shalav »

Well since you deleted my post without the courtesy of allowing a contesting viewpoint, your claim of accepting responsibility does not hold true now does it. No worries I have saved a .png copy of the webpage saved for the record anyway.

As for 143 posts - I don't post much true, but being a BRFite for over 10 years 9+ under this handle and 2 more under another handle before that I have seen various moderation styles.

As regards the handle the last change was in the year 2000, after BRF started insisting on 'human sounding' names.

As I see it you are taking my comments personally, attacking me for posting "only" 143 posts, etc... etc... etc...

Last post on this subject again
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Shalav wrote:Well since you deleted my post without the courtesy of allowing a contesting viewpoint, your claim of accepting responsibility does not hold true now does it. No worries I have saved a .png copy of the webpage saved for the record anyway.

As for 143 posts - I don't post much true, but being a BRFite for over 10 years 9+ under this handle and 2 more under another handle before that I have seen various moderation styles.

As regards the handle the last change was in the year 2000, after BRF started insisting on 'human sounding' names.

As I see it you are taking my comments personally, attacking me for posting "only" 143 posts, etc... etc... etc...

Last post on this subject again
Courtesy is not a one way street, old boy.

I would contest your post if it was worth a contest. Why waste time and bandwidth?

Nothing wrong with the BRF.

It is just that it is getting more professional and secular.

It that is a crime, BRF is guilty!

My apologies if BRF changed your non human sounding name.

We want humans around here!

Guess who save posts?

No, I am don't take things personally. If I were to do, then banning an warning is the answer. I have the 'power'. I will be danned it I use it or ask another Moderator to do so.

Sorry, old boy, I would like to wean with all my power at my command without coercive means to some back to the straight and narrow!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Shalav »

No need for apologies old boy!

Since you joined the forum a half decade after I did, I don't hold you responsible for that at all.

BTW I don't mind posting under my REAL NAME - no internet handles as you can see.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Shalav wrote:No need for apologies old boy!

Since you joined the forum a half decade after I did, I don't hold you responsible for that at all.

BTW I don't mind posting under my REAL NAME - no internat handles for me.
Not half a decade if you will.

Not that ancient really, even if you are!

If you don't mind posting under the real name, do let us know if BRF stopped such an honourable man like you to adopt a pseudonym!

But, sir, why do you use the hidden option?

I am but green behind my ears as per you. I don't hide!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Shalav
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by negi »

Ray sir kindly cut these two gents some slack (I hope you take this as a personal request ) ; as I have re-iterated many a times before the nature of forum prevents effective expression of ideas and there is always a disconnect perhaps this has caused sparks to fly . Fwiw I can vouch for Swamy_G and Shalav (inspite of having argued with both in the past) , these gents are as civil as one can be on forums. :)

Btw isn't it fair or even justified on part of members to expect Mods to develop a relatively thicker skin as compared to ordinary members ? :lol:

Mods I do not wish to jump in but you see this is what happens when private messaging is blocked. :P

Brigadier Ray , hope you don't take this personally you know me well enough :wink:
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

negi wrote:Ray sir kindly cut these two gents some slack (I hope you take this as a personal request ) ; as I have re-iterated many a times before the nature of forum prevents effective expression of ideas and there is always a disconnect perhaps this has caused sparks to fly . Fwiw I can vouch for Swamy_G and Shalav (inspite of having argued with both in the past) , these gents are as civil as one can be on forums. :)

Btw isn't it fair or even justified on part of members to expect Mods to develop a relatively thicker skin as compared to ordinary members ? :lol:

Mods I do not wish to jump in but you see this is what happens when private messaging is blocked. :P

Brigadier Ray , hope you don't take this personally you know me well enough :wink:
Negi,

You have met me for a short while at the Calcutta do which you organised.

I daresay, you would call me uncivil.

I am sure SwamyG and Slalav are civil gentlemen. However, to feel that Moderators are idiots and free-wheeling German storm troopers is a wee bit overboard.

Though it has not been said, I would like to be transparent. Moderators actions are discussed and laid threadbare in the Moderators forum. So, please be rest assured that it is not that a Moderator is not under control and can do what he likes! What happened to ArunS, the Webmaster?

As far I am concerned, I am very moderate and I love hearing contrary views. Check my heated debates with Brihaspati and Somnath. I do not agree with many of their contentions, but I have learnt from them! Have I used warning or banning? I could have done that with a touch of malice and some some ideal Indic chicanery!

No sir. I have here to get educated. Not to show my powers. Even when I had greater powers, I never exercised them. It is easy to kill or ruin a person. Try saving a man or an idea. That is most difficult. If you can, then that is Power!

That is what I want to strive for!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Surely not you!

Those who are self opinionated and have no idea how the apparatus works are those who give advice that are bogus.

It is easy to give free advice.

It costs nothing!

"Bush is smart. I don't think that Bush will ever be impeached, 'cause unlike Clinton, Reagan, or even his father, George W. is immune from scandal. Because, if George W. testifies that he had no idea what was going on, wouldn't you believe him?"
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by SwamyG »

Negi: Thanks boss for the kind words.

RayC: It does not look like you are going to offer any substantiation to your claims. I am sure you would be asking me to back up any claims I make about you. So in the absence of evidence, can I request you to delete all these posts right from the ones you made?
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

SwamyG wrote:Negi: Thanks boss for the kind words.

RayC: It does not look like you are going to offer any substantiation to your claims. I am sure you would be asking me to back up any claims I make about you. So in the absence of evidence, can I request you to delete all these posts right from the ones you made?
Can't do that.

It takes too much of effort to waste on trifles.

Trifles are important to you, but not to me.

And as Omar Khayyam had said:

The moving finger having move on......

No time to waste of junk stuff!

And since you are Indic man, let us look at this:

Look to this day.
Today is the day of days,
In its brief space lies the verities and realities of existence.

- Kalisadasa.

So why bother about the past?

Even Omar Khyaam has commented on it.

Eine Stimme scholl morgens zu mir aus der Schenke:
Steh' auf närr'scher Schwärmer' Dein Heil bedenke
Füll', ehe das Mass unsres Schicksals gefüllt ist,
Bei uns noch das Mass mit edlem Getränke!


Moslems and Hindus!

The path is same!

Sanity and non arrogance on either side is required!

Early one morning I heard an angelic chime
Bringing news of a loving and joyous clime
Pursuit of the unimportant is the worst crime
Live in joy & love before the end of your time.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by negi »

RayC wrote: You have met me for a short while at the Calcutta do which you organised.
Yes 'short' but enough to know and realize with whom one is talking to in the future when one posts on BRF ; it actually makes a lot of difference exchanging ideas and the kind of language to be used with a 'handle' with which a face in fact a person can be associated.
I daresay, you would call me uncivil.
On the contrary I made a humble request assuming things would cool down . :oops:
However, to feel that Moderators are idiots and free-wheeling German storm troopers is a wee bit overboard.
No one made any statement which even remotely points to the above.

Unless you are referring to
Btw isn't it fair or even justified on part of members to expect Mods to develop a relatively thicker skin as compared to ordinary members ? :lol:

which again was posted in good humor .

Apologies for all the trouble .

--runs to Nukkad
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

--runs to Nukkad
You are safe.

I don't visit it.

I was advised not to.

See the power of the Moderator Panel! :rotfl:

I am banned!

Even if you feel we are the SS, remember there is always Hitler on top of us!

Heil Hitler! Seig Heil! :mrgreen: :((
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by brihaspati »

RayC wrote Heil Hitler! Seig Heil! :mrgreen: :((
RayC,
do you know that the only nazis on Indian soil are supposed to be "Hindu fanatics"? Are you eager to join their ranks? That slogan is reserved for nazis! :P

SwamyG-ji,
I am of the position that we need to extract the core from our past, but we should first build and identify the criteria, framework and values to do this "extraction". Not everything that has been handed down to us as "past" and "tradition" and "core of the past" can be included without discrimination into a "core". I think the core should be more a set of principles for evaluation of "values" - deciding what in a given context takes precedence over another. "Values" can change because values have to be grounded on concrete reality. Therefore they change also with changes in socio-economic reality.

The core cannot be changeable - because it serves as the foundation, the base for stability. Therefore core cannot itself be "values" - it can only be a set of principles to generate "values", to decide which "value" overrides another value in a certain society at a certain place at a certain time.

I am not prepared to accept every "blast" from the past as part of the "core". There could be many that we will find to be incompatible with the set of core principles we extract, and could simply have been the result of opportunism or abject compromise with ruthless imposition from "outside".

There is a certain passage I can remember from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad which will appear to be highly ojectionable at least in public now, if accepted as a timeless core "value". But on the other hand, there will be many voices which will be extra eager to identify that passage as "core" of Indic/Bharatyia. I would rather first clarify and settle on the evaluation principles - and based on that clearly answer two questions.

First, is the "value" appropriate for the time period and society in context as evaluated by core principles?
Second, is the "value" superseded by other "values" appropriate for the time period and society in context as evaluated by the core principles?
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by SwamyG »

RayC: You don't seem to give and take respect. There is no point in trying to prove my case. You can get away because you are the moderator. I do not plan to interact with you anymore.

Brihaspati ji: What is the context of your post?
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Umrao Das »

ray saar is firing at will

In the process he felled SwamyG, created a Merlin Man Row out of no where and Negi ted peace overture.

some( h) Arms and the man one act play I guess.

Few pointers to chew

"Soldiering, my dear madam, is the coward's art of attacking mercilessly when you are strong, and keeping out of harm's way when you are weak. That is the whole secret of successful fighting. Get your enemy at a disadvantage; and never, on any account, fight him on equal terms."


"My rank is the highest known in BRF land I'm a free citizen."
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by brihaspati »

SwamyG,
what I had in mind is the following : (from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad - in the context of conception and birth and refers to the wife)

"If she does not willingly yield her body to him, he should buy her with presents. If she is still unyielding, he should strike her with a stick or with his hand and overcome her, repeating the following mantra: "With power and glory I take away your glory." Thus she becomes discredited."
This is Nikhilananda's translation - most do translate it similarly.
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (Eng. transl)
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Umrao Das »

If she does not willingly yield her body to him, he should buy her with presents. If she is still unyielding, he should strike her with a stick or with his hand and overcome her, repeating the following mantra: "With power and glory I take away your glory." Thus she becomes discredited."
Sama daana bhedha vithanda margam midhunam prapthihi?

added quote for context.
Last edited by Umrao Das on 21 Oct 2009 06:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by shiv »

SwamyG wrote:Snow garu: I respect you so much, please leave out teasing or taunting Shiv. You two might be the best friends behind the scenes and wouldn't mind pulling each others legs for all we know. But hopefully jest does not pull down this thread. And if you are not friends, it is all the more important that you don't do what you are doing.

To set the record straight may I point out that the particular post you have referred to is probably not a taunt. Spinster/John Umrao/John Snow/Umrao Das has been on the forum for a long time. He has things that he feels strongly about and I have things that I feel strongly about. We occasionally do take pot shots but by an large he is a known quantity for me and I am a known quantity for him

Maybe I should not harp on John Umrao's views here (lest he should accuse me of pisklogical games). There was a time during the heyday of the BJP government when his biting criticism earned him the accusation of being a Kaangress functionary. A decade down the line it is clear that he was dead right - down to the small details like faxes and white papers which have morphed into 21st century dossiers. We will have our differences of opinion - but that particular post was not a taunt.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by brihaspati »

Umrao-ji
major lesson of war, choose your own battlfield, whenever possible divert the enemy, raise a new din and shout elsewhere. In time, the one with the patience and stamina wins. :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Umrao Das »

Even though I am no Snow I am humbled and melted at your magnanimity, which is true nature of an educated learned and wiseman. I just love jest and mean no ill even to Mava lok residents in the cyber space whose job is nothing but keep tabs on BRF and add to to the fissions and fissures.

Iwas only talking about the motivation aspect of getting ahead in life because by being Dr. Or Engineer a Lawyer in US you go up the Maslow's theory of hierarchy of needs in one shot.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by samuel »

To get an understanding on values, I came across this:

The National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT) in New Delhi has identified 84 values. 8)
http://www2.unescobkk.org/elib/publicat ... 9INDIA.pdf
It concludes
What is required today is not religious education but education about religions.
Values will naturally percolate from such pursuits, which would naturally influence
human behaviour in positive directions. The inculcation of values will then help in
fighting fanaticism, violence, fatalism, dishonesty, avarice, corruption, exploitation
and other social evils. On the positive side they will promote the development of key
qualities like self-discipline, self-control, a sense of duty, a desire to serve,
accountability, enterprise, creativity, sensitivity to equality, a democratic attitude, a
sense of obligation to environmental protection and a love for social justice. This will
above all lead to self-realisation, as well as a realisation of the ultimate purpose of
human life, resulting in a spiritual expedition from the level of the sub-conscious to
that of the super-conscious.
:mrgreen:

***********************
NCERT, Social, Moral and Spiritual Values in Education (1974) -- do you have this document?
and
value education, by dr.n venkatiah
overlay these on top of what our lives look like and we have the Index to track...
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by brihaspati »

Umrao-ji,
I have probably used an anti-tank mine here. The point was, that I was trying to say that the "injunction" that says the husband can use physical coercion for conception should be treated as "value" for that time and society. It cannot be a core. There could have been many reasons for such thoughts at that period of time - probably from the society's viewpoint, existence of the small groups were so precarious that procreation had to continue regardless of the woman's willingness. Behind this was probably a core principle that society had to continue and reproduce itself - behind which in turn could be the principle that human society was the keeper of traditions and knowledge - etc.

Those core principles could have been used to arrive at such a drastic "value" because of the context and specific nature of the problems faced by that society. That value itself need not be a "core" and an objective in itself - and therfore need not be re-enforced for all times and all societies. That would be the Abrahamic way.

However the core principle that society as the womb and carrier of knowledge and culture, itself has to be preserved and its continuity ensured - still remains valid as a directive core principle. In our context it will mean, ensuring proper health, and physical protection form external destruction.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by negi »

Why wasn't I born in the 'yuga' when people used to fight over women and it was considered honorable and even got to keep multiple wives. :(( :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote: I am of the position that we need to extract the core from our past, but we should first build and identify the criteria, framework and values to do this "extraction". Not everything that has been handed down to us as "past" and "tradition" and "core of the past" can be included without discrimination into a "core". I think the core should be more a set of principles for evaluation of "values" - deciding what in a given context takes precedence over another. "Values" can change because values have to be grounded on concrete reality. Therefore they change also with changes in socio-economic reality.
Brihaspati I have no dispute with the need to extract a set of core principles that we must live by. My problem is with the need to look to the "past" for extraction of the core.

To use an analogy to illustrate what I mean - "The past" for the US is a couple of centuries. But for India "the past" literally goes back to what is described in Western literature as "pre-history". (Pre history of course only means "I have written a history of my own and anything that claims to be older than that is pre-history. My story is the latest and greatest")

To my mind - India, in its past has had the time to experiment with every single concept that humans have thought of in terms of political thought, religious thought or cultural thought. This is precisely the reason why Indians are constantly finding ancient references to modern situations and dilemmas and have come to believe that everything was already figured out in the past. In the Indian mind the entire past experience of perhaps 5000 years is compressed into a core set of ideas that the Indian can dip into and use depending on the situation that he finds himself in.

The problem that I find in Indian society is that the "core ideas of Indians" are distilled from such a long period of time that that they often contradict each other. India and the knowledge that can be distilled from the past is not a conveniently short sound byte that can be summarized into a few paragraphs. Faced with the same stresses, different Indians take leaves out of different pages of history and try to apply them leading to a society that is "colorful and varied" at best and "inhomogeneous and dysfunctional" at worst.

This is why I fear attempts to selectively take things out of India's history and claim that it is possible to develop a "core". I believe that what we see in India today -i.e India the nation taken as a whole is the ultimate embodiment of that core where a billion people are taking a billion bits of information from their past and applying them to today's world. The net result of that is the India that is there for all to see.

IMO what we need is not to keep searching the infinite items of knowledge of the past, but to recognize and accept that it exists in Indian memes, and to educate Indians to see the world as a dog eat dog place where a degree of organization and a deliberate imposition of homogeneity (without allowing protests that this goes against some aspect of the past) can lead to a world dominating nation.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by brihaspati »

negi-ji,
what if you were torn into two by the legs over such a fight over a desirable woman? Think of the lot of the defeated! :( Also what if your loving girlfriend got squeezed in the process! And what makes you so envious of those who could have multiple wives? Especially in the days before the little blue pills! :mrgreen:
brihaspati
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by brihaspati »

shivji,
the reason I would prefer to still sift the past is for three reasons :

(a) pre-existing memes that serve our purpose are better accepted and understood or less obstinately resisted
(b) there is a high probablity that many of the principles evolved over a very long time and over very complex situations appropriate for the subcontinent, and are more likely to be closer to desired socio-economic outcomes (not necessarily the forms now being practised in the name of tradition - they could be simply survival responses to a hostile system)
(c) we need to identify and isolate claims like that of the Abrahamic. The basic excuses under which these claims are tolerated are actually based on misrepresentations and false constructions of the past of the Bharatyia principles themselves. The simplest issue being the myth and claim of "tolerance" for everything and anything as a core principle handed down by the Bharatyia past as a "core" "unalterable" principle.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by svinayak »

samuel wrote:To get an understanding on values, I came across this:

The National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT) in New Delhi has identified 84 values. 8)
http://www2.unescobkk.org/elib/publicat ... 9INDIA.pdf
It concludes
NCERT, Social, Moral and Spiritual Values in Education (1974) -- do you have this document?
and
value education, by dr.n venkatiah
overlay these on top of what our lives look like and we have the Index to track...
:mrgreen:
This is when the secular/commie/jholawala generation took over the education and media inside India.
Utopian world manufactured by that generation - commie world view
Last edited by svinayak on 21 Oct 2009 07:55, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by shiv »

Brihaspati - I shall now use the term fractal recursivity in its original sense and not in the sense that it has generally been used on this forum (primarily by ME!!) - i.e as a way of showing how the colonized acquires the mind of the colonizer.

The "original" fractal recursivity refers to the phenomenon in which macroscopic differences fade as one enters the microscopic arena where details are mirrored and mimicked in a process that is repeated yet again as you dig deeper into sub-details and sub-sub details.

The "macroscopic" Indic characteristics that we like to talk about appear to be in stark contrast to macroscopic appearance of the Abrahamic faiths and the cultures they fostered. And because of the vast gulf between the macroscopic appearances, there is a tendency for us to think that if we use reductionism and try and dig microscopically into "core principles" one might find that the Indic practices arose from superior core principles and superior ideals while the Abrahamic faiths arose from faulty premises.

I believe that this is wrong. All ancient faiths rose out of the need to explain or cope with the same problems that all humans face - sorrow, disease, death, natural calamity, hunger, disability, infidelity, deceit, subjugation, fear, loneliness and the power of incompetents over others.

If we "cut the crap" and look down to the very origins of the Abrahamic faiths - they were solutions that were mooted for a particular society at a particular time in history. No more. What we see today as the powerful structure of the Abrahamic faiths is merely a mindless historic extrapolation of those rules imposed by military victories on huge areas of the world.

Indic cultures too developed initially as explanations or solutions to those same human problems. But there was no imposition of "one size fits all" solutions but a continuous exploration of all possible solutions.

That is why going back to the core will ultimately get us nowhere - because at the core everyone claims that it all came out of good intentions. The problem is not the core differences but the macroscopic manifestations that we see today.

In some ways the Western solution appears to be good. The Western solution is to downgrade religion - even the Abrahamic religions and bring them under the control of a common law. That common law constitutes the "core ideas" of the Western nation in question. The downside of such abrogation of religion is the mindless pursuit of personal happiness in the absence of religion leading to suicidal societies whose numbers go down as people seek material wealth over the sacrifices and sorrow that family life inevitably brings.

India is in a dilemma - and is sitting up RayC's gum tree. India has tried to replace religion with a common law but has done a half and half job of that. Once again, the modern Indian state, faced with the need to make a firm "this way or that way" decision, has behaved in the Indic fashion and has tried to reach a compromise in which nothing is thrown away and nothing is taken up fully. Modern Indian laws are just one more set of laws that you have the option of following. The behavior of Indians reflects that.

I do not want to thwart you in your quest for a core and for that reason I will (attempt to) leave this thread now. My thought process sees things in such a different way that I will only be destructive I apologise for any hurt feelings I may have caused to anyone. I think my own thoughts about what India looks like to me need to go in a book that I have been threatening to write for over a decade. Only problem is - India is so big that I am spending my entire life learning.

I only hope I can keep my disruptive opinions off this thread by finding some other place to go and park myself. :)
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by pgbhat »

x-posting from nukkad. Sent by a mail from my bro traveling in India currently. ;)
Okay I had question..... found this post on line.....
I was talking about the social flaws of India; which might inextricably be linked to the status quo of the economy. It is highly likely that a civilization with such a low IQ population will continue to be dysfunctional. India could very well be the most dysgenic society, with the tribal areas seeing many families with a dozen off springs, while the high IQ groups procreate a lot less, the whole time being fueled by the arranged marriage system which guarantees marriage (and eventually a family) to ever Hindu. Since antiquity, marriage to first cousins and nieces were the most prevalent, and this practice was broken only in the past hundred years. This “inbreeding depression” results in severe impairment of cognitive ability in future generations.

(An IQ test is a fluid intelligence test consisting of non-verbal, raven’s progressive matrices, and is completely free from any biases. In fact, a PhD and an illiterate are equally qualified to take it.)

An IQ of 85, which is a standard deviation below the average, on the European scale, corresponds to the mental age of a fourteen-year-old brat. India’s is, again, worse: averaging around 80. This is not enough even to comprehend sex, let alone raise steady families and build a steady society. The juvenile mentality of the public, the lack of proper social rules, and profound similarities to a preindustrial civilization–”in culture, not in economy!”–may never be completely overcome. All you can hope for is a future Saudi Arabia, helped by truly, indigenously developed countries.

India seems to be doing good economically, for such a dumbass civilization, after the introduction of the industrial revolution, western science, secular democracy, civil rights for all castes, and vast secularization in the past decades. But this economic progress has nothing to do with social progress.
How do you counter such a view? :(
I will try prying out the link from my bro. ;) he hates to reveal his online handle to me. :lol:
svinayak
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by svinayak »

pgbhat wrote:
I was talking about the social flaws of India; which might inextricably be linked to the status quo of the economy. It is highly likely that a civilization with such a low IQ population will continue to be dysfunctional. India could very well be the most dysgenic society, with the tribal areas seeing many families with a dozen off springs, while the high IQ groups procreate a lot less, the whole time being fueled by the arranged marriage system which guarantees marriage (and eventually a family) to ever Hindu. Since antiquity, marriage to first cousins and nieces were the most prevalent, and this practice was broken only in the past hundred years. This “inbreeding depression” results in severe impairment of cognitive ability in future generations.

(An IQ test is a fluid intelligence test consisting of non-verbal, raven’s progressive matrices, and is completely free from any biases. In fact, a PhD and an illiterate are equally qualified to take it.)

An IQ of 85, which is a standard deviation below the average, on the European scale, corresponds to the mental age of a fourteen-year-old brat. India’s is, again, worse: averaging around 80. This is not enough even to comprehend sex, let alone raise steady families and build a steady society. The juvenile mentality of the public, the lack of proper social rules, and profound similarities to a preindustrial civilization–”in culture, not in economy!”–may never be completely overcome. All you can hope for is a future Saudi Arabia, helped by truly, indigenously developed countries.

India seems to be doing good economically, for such a dumbass civilization, after the introduction of the industrial revolution, western science, secular democracy, civil rights for all castes, and vast secularization in the past decades. But this economic progress has nothing to do with social progress.
How do you counter such a view? :(
Good points to discuss but lot of incorrect facts of the social history of Indian populations.
There are now studies which says that Indian IQ with high number will reach 200-300M in 20-30 years.

The narration is a good example of fractal recursivity.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by svinayak »

I needed to clarify some facts
In some ways the Western solution appears to be good. The Western solution is to downgrade religion - even the Abrahamic religions and bring them under the control of a common law. That common law constitutes the "core ideas" of the Western nation in question. The downside of such abrogation of religion is the mindless pursuit of personal happiness in the absence of religion leading to suicidal societies whose numbers go down as people seek material wealth over the sacrifices and sorrow that family life inevitably brings.
This western solution "to downgrade religion - and bring them under the control of a common law" is a recent phenomenon of the modern times - 150 years. Before the so called "modern times" the society and social behavior was based on religion the pre-modern version of the Abrahamic religions
This modern times is going to fade away. Post modernism is also gone now.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Rahul Mehta »

Yudhajit wrote:Leaders of our country made some mistakes during the initial years after independence.

1. They did away with the Jury system,

2. they did not make Police force accountable to the citizens,

3. they did not implement right to recall.

Now we are too deep into the mess. ....
AWMTA :) . And never before AWMTA :) was so true on BR. And I am sure many BRites will soon say that "Yudhajit" is none but RM. So let me clarify that I and Yudhajit are NOT the same. And no matter which forum I go, be orkut or eCharcha or Indian-Forum or IndiansForGun.com etc, I use one and ONLY one ID and that is always "Rahul Mehta" and nothing else. So I amd Yudhajit are different, we think alike only because AWMTA :) .

-------
Rahul Mehta: And forget this problem, EVERY "problem" you see in India, that West solved, is ONLY because of differences in administrative structure and laws , and has NOTHING to do with culture (aka core). Culture is NOT the reason. Culture (aka Indic core in this thread) exists, but culture is useless as culture does no good and culture does no harm. IOW, Culture is like God. We all know God exists. But we all also know that so far, as far as anyone can see, hear or tell, God did nothing good and did nothing harmful.

Tanaji: I agree with Rahul Mehta on this actually. Well said... see, I dont disagree with you all the time, we agree on other points as well!
Hmmmm .. there is an old saying on BR. That

1. AWMTA :)
2. Sooner or later one has to believe in God
3. Sooner or later one has to switch to MS-Windows
4. Sooner or later one has to agree with RM
5. Above 4 statements are equivalent

:D :p

====
shiv wrote:Tanaji Indian culture (in my view) prevents the setting up of a just and efficient administration such as the one Rahul Mehta yearns for. The theory is all there, the laws are there but India has a very "backward" culture that prevents the implementation of even existing laws like child labor, womens rights and minimum wage. ...

replied in neta-babu thread.
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