J&K News and Discussion-2011

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 22 Feb 2011 22:35

Why is growing apples such a bad thing - to be looked down upon! it may not appear to have the shine and gloss of uber-secular [no smell of religion or culture] completely convertible international currency gleaned from commissions and fees and bonuses, but growing apples is no mean business, IMO. The trees need a hell of a lot of looking after, to maintain productivity. Some processing industry would do great - from within gated communities, if necessary for security. HP does a decent job of it - so not impossible in the valley!

It jars to read of orcharding/farming as something unworthy, beneath the dignity of a polished one!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Feb 2011 07:44

VikasRaina wrote: Ummm! Do what you would have done in B'lore or Caclutta or Commie heaven or Chitoor or Nagpur or Lukhnow.
You could open a hotel and cater to Vaishno Mata / Amarnath pilgrims.
You also could start adventure sports club wich would include para sailing , Kayaking etc..
You could take people on hitch-hiking trails across Pir Panjal Mountain range.
You could open a call center.
You could open a mechanic shop
You could start a blog and get paid for the ads.
You could join Indian railways and work locally
You could teach kids
You could start a city-cab service

Admirable thoughts Vikasraina-ji...Why not? But question - which of the above activities requires an annulment of Art 370?

Its interesting that you mention call centre...I know a chap who was part of a group of guys looking to do exactly that - around 2003-04 days if memory serves right...They wanted to start a call centre (smallish - around 100 seats to start with) in J&K..they had a couple of clients too, from the "lead promoter" who was one of the founders of XYZ (one of the largest stand-alone BPOs that sold off later to one of the IT biggies)...Why J&K? BAsic premise - 1) lower costs - they were taking to th BPO to Tier III cities idea forward and 2) apparently there were some subsidies by the state govt thrown in (not sure, dont remember exactly what those were - but besides the point)..the prject didnt take off beyond the drawing board...Why?

1. Real Estate was NOT the big problem at all...there is no issue with leasing of RE by corporates, including long leases as well...The state govt itself gives long lease to companies in indsutrial parks/zones of some sort..(all PSU banks operating in J&K have long lease properties)...

2. too many distractions in operations...It was impossible to operate 24/7, as night curfew would be enforced woithout warning...They tried getting the Army to undertake some kind of shuttle service for employees, but didnt work out...

3. Telecoms...It was taking forever even to get approvals for a 150-line telephone infra from BSNL, mostly on grounds of security...When these guys were talking to BSNL, there was also a demand from one of the intel shops that they needed to have someone posted in the premises 24/7 to eavesdrop!

4. General instability...the couple of months this chap spent in Srinagar, he saw stoen pelting and police firing (maybe it was just tear gas, but he couldnt/wouldnt make the distinction) thrice...He couldnt be sure that they could sustain operations....

Now which of the above issues can be resolved by annulling Art 370? If not, why would large numbers of Indians agree to relocate to J&K? some might, like munnaji above, but a) not everyone has other businesses like munnaji to "spread the risk" around and b) nothing's preventing them from doing so now, if there really is so much intent!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Feb 2011 08:00

somnath wrote: Admirable thoughts Vikasraina-ji...Why not? But question - which of the above activities requires an annulment of Art 370?

People don't feel happy going and working in a place where they will be second-class citizens, with no right to own land. We want people to go and sink roots into the soil.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Feb 2011 08:14

Gulmarg is ranked by many amateur skiers right up there with the best, with so much moolah being thrown in desh we can sure develop it as a ski resort to cater to both Indian as well as foreign tourists.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Feb 2011 08:54

negi wrote:Gulmarg is ranked by many amateur skiers right up there with the best, with so much moolah being thrown in desh we can sure develop it as a ski resort to cater to both Indian as well as foreign tourists.

Sure, and Art 370 is the reason why it isnt being done?

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 23 Feb 2011 09:08

Somnath, relax...you are barking up the wrong tree.

Theoratically speaking it is possible to enable demographic change IF the goberment really wants it. If the government announces that any settlers will get the houses for half the price (rest half subsidised by gov) or massive tax rebates people will consider that as an option. To overcome the problems you mentioned fully contained housing complex schemes can be built that will have all the facilities like schools, shopping, entertainment and some sitable businesses. They can then get the permissions for required infrastructure etc. The requirement is only settlers can buy houses and businesses there.

Now comes the practical problem. Kashmiris will naturally get upset and try to stage demonstrations, resort to riots and finally destroy any connection of these colonies with external world be it infrastructure or any social life for these people. Thats where the will power of government comes into picture and they have a nice and ready excuse of being a democracy. Only the strong response to any such opposition by Kashmiris will set the precedent. It must be hammered into Kashmiris thick skulls that J&K belongs to India which means to Indians and they cannot be the ones to decide who lives there. Goberment must be willing to use force to ANY EXTENT required. Divide Jammu and Kashmir in smaller territories and create barriers to cross those artificial borders to that trouble makers will be divided.

Obviously all of these is a mere fairy tale not because it is impractical but because we are expecting this from the Indian government chosen by the majority which happens to be Hindus. That is the reason I mentioned in the beginning to relax. Demographic change is a proven solution to such kind of problems but it takes b*lls to implement such a solution that Hindus perticularly lack. There is a reason why we are discussing solutions to this problem after 63 years of independence. If we were Muslims, Christians or Communists then we wouldn't have had this problem or at least would have solved by now. There is a reason why Pakistan and China are able to not only swallow territory of other countries but almost digest it. Sure they have problems too but I would rank their success of integrating foreign territories far superior to India's. There is only one difference between the two and that is India is inhabited with majority Hindus who are mostly cowards with few exceptions. Reason why India was able to integrate Hyderabad and other territories claimed by Pakistan lies in impracticality of their existence as they would then be surrounded by India and cannot exist and last but not least existence of iron man Sardar Patel who was one of those Hindus with a pair.

In a nutshell, don't loose your sleep over any of these solutions being implemented. As we have seen last 63 years...check back after another 63 years if you are still alive and you will find Hindus still b!tching about this problem. All that Hindus can do is talk...they don't walk the talk. If you want a proof just sample this very same forum and compare what people here suggests to anything they do to actually implement their own suggestions and you will know.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 23 Feb 2011 10:13

Sanku wrote:
ManishH wrote: But I don't follow why you think CRPF and IA will be duty-bound to push the settlers out if the movement is
backed by central leadership.
Urr, umm its the law. India is run by the rule of law for all its flaws.

Are you suggesting that GoI breaks its own laws?

Please bear with my ignorance of the law - but I think if a paramilitary jawan's family wants to live in such a enclave, inside the paramilitary camp, it won't be a contravention of the law (art. 370 etc) ? I did stay a year in akhnoor in calm '86 and loved visits to chanab river and LoC.

And if some KP's emboldened by this move were to join such a community, they could legally
be the owners of land around this enclave. Of course, piglets will get wind of this and start
RPG fire and night ambushes. But sir, aren't they already attacking our paramilitary
camps and isn't our paramilitary forces already securing their camps ? Let's not be scared
of secessionists' protest - those rats are protesting even without any action on our part.

Yes, BJP will come back to power. No, they won't have the 2/3rd majority needed to repeal art 370. Let's not pin hopes on parliamentary process but lobby to put reclaiming J&K back in the political agenda.

Brihaspati ji: A landless and disaffected people are the most apt to settle in J&K. There are two categories that come to my mind -

1. There's a large number of paramilitary jawans whose families are agricultarists who are either landless or due to hindu inheritance law, their ancestral lands have been divided into parcels small enough not be sustainable. If they see that their work is defending their families and creating a prosperous future for them, even their morale will be better.

2. Displaced KPs - although they were into white collar professions - but they must be made to realize the importance of connecting to the land. Perhaps by using our ancient texts and creating a lore of promised land.

Basically, people whose ancestors were well off, but are currently living in close to miserable conditions, so would not be disheartened by the hardships they face in the venture. Certainly
there's no room for those who want StarTV, convent education, kind of life.

Yes, farming is the most noble profession and closely connected to the profession of arms. The settlers will have to be connected to the land for the endeavour to be successful. Fruits and flowers are just the kind of cash crops they'll have to learn to grow.

Brihaspati, I agree muslim-phobia is counterproductive in J&K. We need to keep all loyalists firmly on our side while adding to their numbers. The amarnath trust episode has lessons on how not to handle it.

Of course, I don't propose "national consensus" or any "intentional leaks to gauge public opinion" before Operation Zafran starts - I'm sure GoI can implement this with required secrecy if the political will exists.

somnath: I do not propose settling in the middle of the urban ghettoes.

chaanakya: my sympathies about your kashmiri girl - hope by your next janma you are reunited in reclaimed J&K.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Feb 2011 10:31

ManishH wrote:
Please bear with my ignorance of the law - but I think if a paramilitary jawan's family wants to live in such a enclave, inside the paramilitary camp, it won't be a contravention of the law (art. 370 etc) ? I did stay a year in akhnoor in calm '86 and loved visits to chanab river and LoC.

And if some KP's emboldened by this move were to join such a community.

Well ManishH; my starting premise is different, its not about KPs alone, who we have seen, do not have the numbers or wherewithal to hold on in the valley.

IF your proposal is that the enabling conditions be created by "paramilitary jawan's family wants to live in such a enclave, inside the paramilitary camp, it won't be a contravention of the law (art. 370 etc)"

Jawan's accommodation in "non-peace" postings do not have family quarters for long term stay, in fact neither does Officer accommodation. A short term stay for a few people is irrelevant.

Places where there are camps which allow for family to stay (Kaluchuck et al) -- there are already families living inside the camps. Despite everything.

So clearly the points who hope for are already addressed.

=================

The issue is different, a "DEMOGRAPHIC" change can be bought about by only large scale; long term land ownership and consequent stay in the Valley. The soliders who are in the end, only passing through can not make a difference.

HOWEVER if the very same Soliders who are posted in the Valley, were also allowed to buy land (serve 5 years get domiciled eligible to buy land etc) the situation would change drastically.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Feb 2011 10:34

Pranav wrote:
somnath wrote: Admirable thoughts Vikasraina-ji...Why not? But question - which of the above activities requires an annulment of Art 370?
People don't feel happy going and working in a place where they will be second-class citizens, with no right to own land. We want people to go and sink roots into the soil.

Wonder why do people have to be taught "A B C" on this forum.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Feb 2011 10:45

Its interesting, the premise..That masses of people can be asked to voluntarily migrate to another place and settle in a place where:

1. Some of its original inhabitants (pandits) dont want to venture in anymore.
2. Economic prospects and connectivities are amongst the worst in the country.
3. The local populace is hostile..

And somehow despite all of this 30-40 lac Indians from other parts of India would be incentivised to come and settle...AND there would be enough housing, infrastructure to settle so many guys...AND we would be able to provide enough security..Of course, livelihood etc can either be conjured out of thin air - or maybe all of them can be given other businesses to spread the costs of the losses incurred in livelihood in J&K!

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 23 Feb 2011 11:27

Somnath...why is the premise so interesting to you? Is the theory behind it that is intersting or the practicality of its implementation in Indian context?

In case of theroy itself, there are examples of it being done rather successfully. Those cases may not be perfect and mostly kept together by the might of sword but then Indian army is also not preaching Gandhian philosophy in J&K. Although they are working there with one hand tied behind their back, they are still trying to use every possible means at their disposal to carry out the task assigned to them. Problem with using IA is that is it done at the expense of Indian tax payer. Demographic resettlement creates operational hurdles for separatists that result in less stress on IA and possible option of redeploying part of those forces on Chinese border if that is deemed required. China just wants to see Indian might divided across the two borders.

In case the practical aspect of implementation is interesting for you then look at the Europe now or in future. They are democratically telling Romas to vacate their land and resettle somewhere else. They are planning to fight Muslims by democratic means. These are the same people who lectured us everyday about tolerance, democracy, religious freedom, secularism etc. and now the dominat factor amongst them (the Church) wants them to openly declare themselves as Christian. Islam is a TRUE ANTIDOTE of Christianity. Islam does precisely what Christianity does but they are more resolute and unadulterated (lack of enlightenment) than Christians with violence thrown in as additional spice. Why is that relevant in this thread? They know how to tackle these problems because they themselves too create the problem in other places. Its not that trivial as well. They are more united than Hindus in many ways and posses the strength that unity provides them.

Ok, again why is all this relevant to this thread? Should India declare herself a Hindu state? Answer is NO. Hell NO. With the slow poison of Hinduism killing its own way of life, declaring India a theological state will simply accelerate that demise even faster. So what is the solution? Its a different topic altogether and very much OT to this thread.

All I am saying is demographic change is a very potent tool to solve the kind of problem we are facing but we are not ready for its implementation and if Hinduism prevails then we never will.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 23 Feb 2011 12:03

somnath wrote:Its interesting, the premise..That masses of people can be asked to voluntarily migrate to another place and settle in a place where:

1. Some of its original inhabitants (pandits) dont want to venture in anymore.
2. Economic prospects and connectivities are amongst the worst in the country.
3. The local populace is hostile..

somnathji, I understand the 3 points, therefore the proposal mitigates each of the risks above

1 => Settlers should currently be in dire economic situation, so no hesitation for this venture.
2 => Settler economy should be self-sustained.
3 => Hostile locals and LeT mercenaries are kept at bay by existing security at paramilitary camps.

I'm sure inspite of this, the settlers will face night ambushes, sniper fire, arsonry upon their crops,
poisoning of water supply. But I think the existing camps are not immune to any of the above.

But please trust our ruddy village folk to endure it. Remember they have endured mortar fire from
Pak regulars in the years before ceasefire on LoC and not bolted.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Feb 2011 12:08

somnath wrote:[
Admirable thoughts Vikasraina-ji...Why not? But question - which of the above activities requires an annulment of Art 370?

Its interesting that you mention call centre...I know a chap who was part of a group of guys looking to do exactly that - around 2003-04 days if memory serves right...They wanted to start a call centre (smallish - around 100 seats to start with) in J&K..they had a couple of clients too, from the "lead promoter" who was one of the founders of XYZ (one of the largest stand-alone BPOs that sold off later to one of the IT biggies)...Why J&K? BAsic premise - 1) lower costs - they were taking to th BPO to Tier III cities idea forward and 2) apparently there were some subsidies by the state govt thrown in (not sure, dont remember exactly what those were - but besides the point)..the prject didnt take off beyond the drawing board...Why?

God! Some people will NEVER stop arguing just for the sake of it. Try setting up your own bijuness in hot-shot IT hubs, like Gurgaon, Noida etc. and post the experience here. Then we'll talk about it. Just because your favourite party can't/wouldn't do diddly squat to improve conditions in J&K, this doesn't mean that all the solutions are crap. Is there no shortage of basic amenities else where in India ?
You are opposing settlement of non-residents, setting up of business, abolition of article 370 and everything in between and beyond.Pray, how'd YOU improve the situation in J&K ? Except for whining of course.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 23 Feb 2011 12:40

I feel sorry for the regions of Jammu and Laddakh, despite accounting for nearly 65% of the land area of the state (under indian control) they have to bear with un-necessary burden such as Article 370, AFSPA, pre-paid phone ban and a CM who is basically elected by the people of Kashmir and mostly looks only to their intrest.

Makes me wonder why some people are so rabidly anti-trifurcation, as it is there is significant isolation between the people of the 3 regions but the other two suffer because of Kashmir.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 23 Feb 2011 13:06

brihaspati wrote:Why is growing apples such a bad thing ..

It jars to read of orcharding/farming as something unworthy, beneath the dignity of a polished one!

munna wrote:Being a Kirana Store Wala my family has had connections to the state both in terms of ancestors and "interests" in the state. If 370 goes out munna goes in simple only.

Munnabhai bin PhD and B ji, take a bow

Apples are sinful when grown in your tainted orchards.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Feb 2011 13:55

jamwal wrote:Try setting up your own bijuness in hot-shot IT hubs, like Gurgaon, Noida etc. and post the experience here. Then we'll talk about it. Just because your favourite party can't/wouldn't do diddly squat to improve conditions in J&K, this doesn't mean that all the solutions are crap. Is there no shortage of basic amenities else where in India ?
You are opposing settlement of non-residents, setting up of business, abolition of article 370 and everything in between and beyond.Pray, how'd YOU improve the situation in J&K ? Except for whining of course.

Jamwal-ji, not sure if you followed what I said...There is this mini group think here that says that repealing Art 370 (which will attract lots of migrants leading to demographic change) is the key handle to solving the Kashmir issue...I am questioning that premise - how has art 370 prevented setting up of any business etc in J&K to atract people?

Shankk-ji, no democracy has managed en masse resettlement - by definintion it involves force which democracies cant exercise...Even Israel, much of the settlers (and the numbers are really small - AFAIK about 2-3 lac) needed to be attrcted by a host of economic benefits - lower cost swanky housing, great connectivity to Tel Aviv/Haifa etc....I am questioning therefor the premise that it is Art 370 that prevents more people from going to J&K and set up businesses there to live and work...There is nothing in Art 370 that prevents J&K from being an attractive business destinatipon attracting migrants to live and work there, but there is a LOT in the current situation of J&K that prevents any of that...Annulment of Art 370 will do nothing to change that situation..

Its interesting that people talk in terms of "hammered in the thick skulls of kashmiri muslims" in case they protest a state-sponsored migration attempt....Would you say that the same state should use the same tools to hammer the same sense of "Indianness" in the "thick skulls of shiv sena-ites" in Mumbai, who protest (surprise, surprise!) demographic change in Mumbai!?

In the peak of the Khalistan movement, there was no Art 370 equivalent in Punjab...Businesses still migrated out, there was little inward investment - it continued till the militancy lasted...It is therefore mighty surprising that Art 370 is thought to be the trigger why people would start living and working in J&K en masse...Thats all..

Pranav-ji, if ownership of land was the determinant of migration attractiveness, Indians would not be migrating to a lot of places in Asia and Europe where ownership of land by foreign individuals is not allowed/curtailed...For that matter India should not be attracting so many expats, as India does not allow foreign individuals to own land either....

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Feb 2011 14:23

how has art 370 prevented setting up of any business etc in J&K to atract people?

This has been answered about 3 times on this page itself. You either
1) Do not want to see the answer
2) Are incapable of understanding it.

Take your pick.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Feb 2011 14:36

You've said a lot of other stuff too.
I for one support removal of article 370. This kind of law is simply stupid in J&K and a big disincentive to people intent on setting up business there. Unless you have a state subject yourself, you'll need somebody who has one and thus are prone to blackmail and whims of that person.

Why are there so many security issues ? Because a large portion of the state's population is violently Islamist. How do you make things better ?Personally, I'd like to make them all sterile, but unfortunately that's not feasible. One option is to make pro-India lobby in state more powerful. If not that, repeal article 370 and encourage Indians to settle in Kashmir. People of your camp wouldn't do that either. What's your point ?
You are just pointing out problems, not offering any solution.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Feb 2011 14:37

Sanku wrote:
how has art 370 prevented setting up of any business etc in J&K to atract people?
This has been answered about 3 times on this page itself. You either
1) Do not want to see the answer
2) Are incapable of understanding it.

Take your pick.

Both
Plus belongs to Secular, P&L Lobby

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Feb 2011 14:55

jamwal wrote:This kind of law is simply stupid in J&K and a big disincentive to people intent on setting up business there.

Law might be stupid, but Art 370 does NOT dicincentivise business...Businesses can lease property in J&K, even long term lease..Rcently, HCI lleased out its Centaur hotel to DB Realty (of the scam fame!) for 30 years...Most businesses in India (and everywhere else) operate out of leased premises...Ownership of prperty is hardly a big deal...If the economic/political conditions are propitious, business will come...Art 370 or not..If kashmiri pandits are not willing to come back, why should rank outsiders do?

What is my point? the fact that annulling Art 370 does nothing material to change status quo, unless the groudn conditions change..J&K is important to us from a strategic perspective..It has nothing great to offer in terms of economic advantages..We need not even bother on that count...The attempt should be to simply keep the militancy down, the Islamist sections under check and channelise the separatism through mainstream politics and economic bribery..Make the insurgency irrelvant by simply starving it of mobilising oxygen - it wil die down on its own...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Feb 2011 15:13

Post-Egypt, Kashmir may put Centre in a spot

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 554862.cms

The Central and state intelligence agencies are in a tizzy for the past one month trying to keep track of the mood on the street here. They are not taking any chances after what happened in Cairo. And their prognosis is grim: something is brewing.

The first sign of tension surfaced after a survey in January by separatists at the behest of Pakistan's ISI to prepare a list of the young men involved in stone pelting last summer. This list is now with the ISI. The initial apprehension within the administration was that these young men could be groomed to pick up the gun. But developments in Egypt changed that.

"Militancy we can handle. After 9/11 (we've seen) it backfires on its promoters. People here are sick of violence. But our greatest fear is 50,000 people landing up at Lal Chowk for a dharna. How do you handle that?" said a top government source requesting not to be named.

Last summer, a section of moderate separatists had called for a dharna but were over-ruled as being "impractical" by the hardliners. Post-Egypt uprising, things look different. A similar protest, in full glare of the international media, would put the Centre and the state government in a spot. The police believe that for such a mass upsurge, all that the separatists needs is a spark. This is where stone pelters come in. One death could ignite a fire.

For the past one month, the police have been quietly picking up all known stone-pelters; even those released earlier. They are being summoned to the local thana every second day. "We want to keep the pressure. We want them to know that we know who they are. The message from the top is clear: last summer shall not be repeated," told a police officer to ToI on condition of anonymity.

Many traders in downtown Srinagar are intrigued by the spurt in phone calls from the local thana in last week. "Sometimes I get three to four calls a one day asking me if I need help or if everything is alright in my area," said Mohammed Ashfaq, a trader.

A source said keeping Syed Ali Shah Geelani in Delhi for interrogation in a hawala case is part of a carrot-and-stick policy. "Everybody knows the 20-year insurgency has been funded by hawala money," said Ashraf Ansari who has business interests in Srinagar. "With this the government has an opportunity to lean on the separatists."

The separatists normally begin their campaigning in summer. It's also the tourist season with the Amarnath yatra ensuring maximum publicity. But this year, the panchayat elections, due in April, could bring the separatists campaign forward.

"A large turnout of voters will rubbish their claim of people rejecting the democratic option. Attempts by militants to force a boycott will bring negative publicity. Calls for boycott won't work because here village-mohalla level interests will override that," said a Congress political worker.

To further weaken the boycott call, the state government has announced that the panchayat elections will be held on a non-party basis. That's why March will be crucial. A repeat of 2010 could force a postponement of panchayat elections.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Feb 2011 15:57

How do you intend to improve political and security situation ? Militancy can't be eliminated without eliminating it's Islamic sympathizers.

Who says people are not interested in setting up business ? Tourism industry of J&K ( that excludes kashmir ) must be bigger than that of many other states combined . Fruits, hydel power, handicrafts and minerals are some other fields. If a tiny state like Himachal can do it, what's wrong with J&K ?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Feb 2011 16:19

somnath wrote: Law might be stupid, but Art 370 does NOT dicincentivise business...

It does, it might be fashionable in VC and other such circles to look at biz only as a number representing "capital" on the books, but a biz needs first and foremost people to man it.

And man power needs to be fluid/mobile to areas where work is.

Basic basic.

Cant believe this needs explaining. Wow.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 23 Feb 2011 16:42

Somnath,
Why is there a terrorist problem(I would not call it militancy) in JK.
Is it because
People belonging to a certain sect are in majority and hence feel they are different
or
the lack of development

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Feb 2011 17:42

rkirankr wrote:Somnath,
Why is there a terrorist problem(I would not call it militancy) in JK.
Is it because
People belonging to a certain sect are in majority and hence feel they are different
or
the lack of development

Rkirankr-ji, unfortunately does not have a simple answer..A political problem, militarised neighbourhood, hostile neighbour, global Islamist movement, real and imagined economic grievances - the list is long and complicated and intertwined...

As a result, there are no simple elegant answers..That includes annulment of Art 370...Howsoever strenuous the protestation, a repeal of the law has no g'teed externality of large scale hindu migration to Kashmir...Especially as the act of annulment itself would trigger a cycle of violence that would scare away most people - the Amarnath land agitation is a teaser in that context..It is instructive to note that in the Israeli case, with far better economic prospects, and arguably far less lethal militant opposition, and a far more secured geogrpahy, it has taken 60 years for them to settle a couple of lac people...

Especially as the economic benefits for the migrants are not clear at all...Jamwal-ji, J&K should have a much larger tourism industry..Why doesnt it? Art 370? Individual ownership of land has no bearing on migration - in mumbai what % of people and businesses "own" the RE they use? Very small, very very small...It is not a factor..So all this rhetorical flourish, repeal Art 370 and we'll have a hoirde of hindus flooding kashmir is just that, rhetoric...

Instead of looking at such fanciful ideas, we should keep an eye out for the real issues..The TOI news posted above is serious - how do we tackle an Egypt-like situation in Lal Chowk...As a democracy, it is in some ways more difficult for us, at the same time less difficult as well...How do we continue making the insurgency less and less relevant...These are the real challenges, not Art 370...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Feb 2011 19:09

>> in mumbai what % of people and businesses "own" the RE they use? Very small, very very small....

Straw man, the question is not whether people can own it or not, the question is whether there is chance and hope for them to own land.

The ONLY issue is Art 370. Period. All of J&K is not the vale, once 370 lifts there will be large number of migrants in other places as well as development. That will gradually crowd out the vale. Then people will move into the vale, because the vale would look squalid compared to others. This will enable Jammu to have a greater number of seats, with consequent change in assembly dynamics. Etc etc.

(Dont tell me that Leh doesnt get better tourist facilities because of militancy

)

Anyway the question is not of simple elegant answers, the question if of the answer. Period. Other issues are deliberate attempts to remove focus and dilute the efforts of integration; unfortunately for Somnath, no one is going to buy that third rate tripe about "real issues" here.

And stop trying to create a bogey man of "Egypt style" demonstrations, the Islamists and their Indian sell outs did the worst they could last year. Zilch happened, and Zilch will continue to happen. Anyway it is turn of US backed regimes going against their countries to fall, so the US sponsored Hurry-rats are not really the one with ascendant powers any more.

Man mohan should try and save his skin in Delhi instead and the KV Islamists should worry that they dont end up like pro-Mubarak supporters when other Indians decide to march from Delhi this time.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Feb 2011 19:10

International and national politics is supposed to be really driven by economic interests onlee. All talk of strategy/ideology/morality/ethic/values/cultures etc are pretension and maya onlee. So if J&K is "strategically important" but has little of "economic value", then it must be that these strategic interests are about much bigger economic interests?!

So what is that much much bigger economic interest that is served by holding on to the "valley"?

This article 370 (and other acts) which are part of the special constitutional provision for J&K thingee is a wonderful kamadhenu! If you say it hinders everything, it will be said that it hinders nothing. But if you go to prove that it hinders nothing it will be said, that you will cause more violence or that you cannot stick around because the ground situation is not conducive. Why is the ground situation not conducive after 63 years? Because even if we bring militancy down, everytime we dance and proclaim the death of militancy - Islamism survives and revives it with the help of Pakistan. Why does Islamism survive? Because the Congress which has been the longest in central power and the Left in general has taken utmost care to protect all exclusivity claims of Islamists. Why militancy takes a boost from Pak - because Pak exists.

If you say it is the internal problem in the valley from Islamists, it will be said no it is an external problem onlee. Saying this solves the problem of having to deal with Islamists on a broader scale within the country and not really pinpoint the cause in Islamism. Since it is an external problem realtedto the existence of Pakistan, and we cannot do anything about it - it is completely out of our hands. So the Congress is not responsible, Islamists are not responsible, no one is really responsible for anything - except KP who were criminals in occupying key posts or dominated the cushy jobs, and of course any grouping that has remotest "Hindu" colourings - since asserting "Hindu"claims is a criminal offence [while Islamist claims are genuine democratic grievances].

Solutions that have been tried out elsewhere are mostly demographic changes - unless interrupted by external aggression like allied attack on Germany in WWII, or NATO attack into Balkans. Such solutions need military back up and armed settlers, or actual framework to guarantee legal possession and use of land. From there comes all else - the starting point of security [not automatic], and integration.

However that means removal of special constitutional status for J&K, which cannot be done before demographic changes, which cannot be done in turn without removal of special constitutional status. Chicken and egg, and chicken, and egg.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 23 Feb 2011 19:18

somnath wrote:Its interesting that people talk in terms of "hammered in the thick skulls of kashmiri muslims" in case they protest a state-sponsored migration attempt....Would you say that the same state should use the same tools to hammer the same sense of "Indianness" in the "thick skulls of shiv sena-ites" in Mumbai, who protest (surprise, surprise!) demographic change in Mumbai!?

Yes, absolutely. Shiv Sena is nothing but a bunch of thugs and crooks who are using sentiments of people for their benifit. In that sense they are not very different than Congress. They must be hammered into accepting that country is for everyone and all parts of the country should be accessible for all Indians. Unfortunately they are Hindus too and posses all the weaknesses of Hindus.

somnath wrote:No democracy has managed en masse resettlement - by definintion it involves force which democracies cant exercise...Even Israel, much of the settlers (and the numbers are really small - AFAIK about 2-3 lac) needed to be attrcted by a host of economic benefits - lower cost swanky housing, great connectivity to Tel Aviv/Haifa etc....I am questioning therefor the premise that it is Art 370 that prevents more people from going to J&K and set up businesses there to live and work...There is nothing in Art 370 that prevents J&K from being an attractive business destinatipon attracting migrants to live and work there, but there is a LOT in the current situation of J&K that prevents any of that...Annulment of Art 370 will do nothing to change that situation..

You cannot be more wrong here. First I gave you example of Europe where in order to tackle the Islamism problem they are taking refuge in shunning secularism and are clamouring for declaring themselves Christian countries. Once they do that there is not much difference between them and officially muslims countries. Both are equally full of hate for others and capable of any amount of violence. So they can be democratic and at the same time Christian too and do whatever neccessary it takes to safeguard their interest.

Second point is, do you agree India is a democracy? Do you agree J&K is part of India? If the answer to both these questions is yes then you don't even have to go anywhere in the world to see democracy succeding in en masse resettlement. Kashmiri muslims have successfully used our democracy (article 370 in perticular) for en masse resettlement by effecting the exodus of Kashmiri Pundits who due to article 370 do not have any support in J&K other than their own kin where as muslims have open support of Pakistan (an entire country) and covert support of many muslims all over the world including some in India too.

What people here are saying is scrap article 370 or turn it around to remove support for Kasmiri muslims and instead support the settlers to effect demographic change.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Feb 2011 19:22

The best way to encourage Jihadis in J&K is to put up an article like that in TOI - suggesting that the country is worried if the Jihadis try out something like this. Thats quarter the propaganda value already conceded to the Jihadis.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Feb 2011 19:32

brihaspati wrote:The best way to encourage Jihadis in J&K is to put up an article like that in TOI - suggesting that the country is worried if the Jihadis try out something like this. Thats quarter the propaganda value already conceded to the Jihadis.

That is the precise purpose that the article has been put up for, and by looking at people who further drum up these subversive agenda, we know who are the sell outs amongst us.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 Feb 2011 19:57

Somnath ji
Do you accept that J&K is part of India just like other states in India??

munna · Post by **munna** » 23 Feb 2011 20:10

Here is a new hat in the ring but one that may be the next cause of massive "panga" in our nation.

B-ji, Sanku-ji, Ramay-ji and all other respected members of the forum; I shall use some of my own analysis, information and open source inputs by people like MK Dhar to construct something here. First and foremost is one fact, the territorial integrity of nation and its realm of writ are no more unifying factors for all political streams within Rashtra. That is we can "compromise" or "resolve" the "outstanding" issues because that will gain x amount of gold coins or y amount of silver coins. The act of "surrender" is being couched in words like "democracy" and "freedom", the idea is to shift the focus of blame from individuals and parties in charge to "system" we have.

Any debate is futile because when a section's well being and paychecks are dictated by what they speak and believe in, it will not help to converse with them or argue your case. They have framed the entire debate as per their own convenience and fancies. Why am I pointing this out? Read on.

The whole "Egypt" like mass mobilization is rubbish, hogwash and old hat! This situation is being talked about since last November in Delhi and the so called "out of box" solutions to J&K were being invited from Track-II, III, IV parties as far back as 3 years. The opposition or any view point that dissents from the idea of the new "Laissez Faire" Rashtra is immediately implicated in stupid cases by babus who should have better sense! Therefore anybody who opposes the idea of "talks" is immediately to be mocked at, laughed at, insinuated against and finally embroiled in distracting legal battles.

The "Ghosts" behind the "Thimpu Spirit" calculated heavily on using above mentioned tactics to justify a sell out as pro-growth, pro-profits and pro-gressive. However the "Berlin" surprise in Summer was still born because of a variety of reasons which I shall list below;

1) Ayodhya verdict destroyed the stance and stand of many public intellectuals who thought that their notion of rashtra was above the constitution of India
2) Rampant food inflation has gnawed on the Economy plank of gobermund, people are wondering that even after getting killed by pappi-jhappi exchange visitors from across the border without reacting, the daily sabzi is still beyond reach
3) Radia Media scandal has destroyed the reputation of media as "unbiased" and "neutral" obersvor. Their closet leftist stance and corrupt practices are out for all to see
4) The scams break out has conclusively proven that government decisions can be bought! The Dewas-ISRO spectrum scam has even shown us depths of penetration into inner sanctums of rashtra and foreign influence therein
5) Rejuvenated opposition that is performing better in its states as admitted by an embarrassed Planning Commission
6) Change of tactics by BJP in J&K

It is the 6th point that I find very interesting and surprising to explore.

As we all know from the yatra thread there were groans and moans by us all (including me) when BJYM started yet another agitation featuring mass mobilization via rath yatra. The key to understand what happened in January lies in understanding how the state under Center and the State reacted? BJYM youth activists started in Kolkata where they received unprecedented support (not stupendous but huge by BJP's presence in WB). The message of Tiranga resonated with common man especially the average youth and at the same time the tone of agitation was full of legalese. The yatra was peaceful despite the oppression let lose by the state and the entire leadership worked to a plan it seemed. Now in the immediate aftermath a lot of people will like to resume their merry charade of mocking and insinuations. They do not realize the implications of what the yatra achieved

1) There is huge support and actually great support in the country to flood the valley and the state if some idiots within Rashtra is fleetingly consider a "resolution of the issue"

2) The massive oppression and tactics used by gobermund in full media spotlight have been proven to exist and work. So come Summer a "democracy" should find it easy to dipserse crowds. If not bear in mind the "other" crowds will mobilize yet again to "expose" your hand

3) The state by coming to aid the people who want to break it or weaken it is actually hastening its own demise. At no time in history of India have we protected separatists against integrationists. Lot of arms of state have made themselves the proverbial @**

4) By repeating such exercises time and time our nation is clearly becoming divided. The divisions run so deep that we cannot agree on common intellectuals, ideas and policies acceptable to all. Hence by becoming gridlocked the rashtriya machinery is actually killing itself a slow death.

5) Going by MK Dhar's blog it is quite clear that by painting opposition as "no option" option a lot of people are being increasingly driven to fringes. This is not a good sign for all of us! I see and sense and increased anger directed against a regime that fails to protect KP's but goes on a limb to feed wazwan to "Geelanis and Maliks".

6) Adm. Puri has raised a very interesting point about hollowing out of national mechanisms. I had the pleasure of meeting his August self some years ago and the sense that I got back then was this regime is more focused on internal defense of its power. All our resources go into sustaining a regime in power and not making nation powerful. 1 Lakh phone taps is a testament to the kind of police state that we have become.

To summarize, we are past the stage of debate and into a phase of active ground politics to save our homes. There is virtually no meeting ground between the twin narratives. Hence engage mango man and not high funda world managers. Just tell them your position and rest. Yes we are divided once again. Tragic but true. Dekhi jayegi.....

PS: I am just a Kirana Store owner hence treat my analysis with all the uppity disdain that was mastered in Formal Halls of Oxbridge or Dining Clubs in Ivy Leagues. I also know nothing about phinance hence pardon me if I failed to do a Vector Auto-regression study into the dyanmics of J&K, too much endogeneity you see, hence identification problem only!....Haak th**

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Feb 2011 21:02

As a result, there are no simple elegant answers..That includes annulment of Art 370...Howsoever strenuous the protestation, a repeal of the law has no g'teed externality of large scale hindu migration to Kashmir...Especially as the act of annulment itself would trigger a cycle of violence that would scare away most people

So basically in one sentence:
Perennially be ready to be blackmailed by the KMs.

* If you remove 370, they will riot, so don't do it.
* If you try hoisting a national flag at places other than at Bakshi stadium or CRPF bunkers, they will riot. So dont do it
* If you dont pamper the stone throwers, they will get inspired by Egypt and riot.So dont do it
* If you allocate few acres of land to help improve facilities for Amarnath yatra visitors, they will riot.So dont do it
* If you try to resettle KPs, they will riot.So dont do it

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Feb 2011 21:49

Munna-ji tussi great ho!

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 23 Feb 2011 22:35

So the KM's will whine and act like cry baby for few days once 370 is removed and then like all abduls will go back to regular life of job and food.
We have faced enough of their shenanigans in the past and if they want to riot for few days, go ahead! Be our guest.
When has the threat of violence ever deterred GoI from doing what it plans to do. Telangana is going to be a new state, Bombay presidency was divided, Naxals were stamped out by SS Ray.. we have plenty of examples where Govt ruled with a iron hand.

Like resident Hakeem ji once said, The govt of the day should carry the biggest threat of violence. So if KM's want to riot, Let them face the brutal force of the state govt.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Feb 2011 23:39

KVJM problem is simple. Both its cause and solution are simply simple but very complicated for Indian "intellectuals" ruling the roost. If simple Indians were governing the country, we would not have this issue at all. When i look at these so called "interlocutors" etc", they hardly resemble anything remotley connected India or mango Indian. Why are the Valley Jihadis are to be treated with First class standards of First world while they have indulged in medieval style ethnic cleansing ? This simply dont make any sense in any sense of the fair play and common sense . Only thing i have learned is that Indian state is brutal to its very own people , sons of soil but very cautious in dealing with all sorts of sundries out to cater enemy's interests. When will PSers learn that at the time of national security threats increasing by the day, India can ill afford popularity winning/ beauty contests to cater to Jihadi demands instead of casterating them with the efficency of surgeon.
Talking about Egypt, does Delhi have answer if Sons of Soil come calling to punish the Commie , Congressi, Communalist criminals walking free since 47?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Feb 2011 01:42

J&K interlocutors take into account separatists' proposals

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 556617.cms

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Feb 2011 02:34

munna ji,

To summarize, we are past the stage of debate and into a phase of active ground politics to save our homes. There is virtually no meeting ground between the twin narratives. Hence engage mango man and not high funda world managers. Just tell them your position and rest. Yes we are divided once again. Tragic but true. Dekhi jayegi.....

PS: I am just a Kirana Store owner hence treat my analysis with all the uppity disdain that was mastered in Formal Halls of Oxbridge or Dining Clubs in Ivy Leagues. I also know nothing about phinance hence pardon me if I failed to do a Vector Auto-regression study into the dyanmics of J&K, too much endogeneity you see, hence identification problem only!....Haak th**

I have talked for long about realizing the character of the rashtra. The character of the rashtra is identified by the side it chooses to back up in a conflict of interests. There are situations where the rashtra is forced to come out in the open with its choices. It can happen accidentally - or people can plan to put the rashtra into a situation where the rashtra has to come out and take sides in the open. MKG did it with Dandi march (even though its direct political outcome was negligible) and the recent yatra was another. Both has had little direct tangible political outcomes on the ground immediately.

The more important fallout is the passive observation by the people to draw their own conclusions. These are steps by which a population de-integrates from its rulers. Once that happens - no rashtra can exist.

I would rely more on the kirana-store-owner's intuition, and feelings. Some economists/finance people may not be aware or may not like to acknowledge, but culture is recognized among some theorists and observers [sociological perspective - management science-marketing/political-economic-anthropologists/organization-theory/behavioural finance] as having a big influence on how even finance/economy is dealt/looked at in a society.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Feb 2011 02:40

Prem ji,
this is why I welcomed any Egypt style "uprising" planned for the valley. It opens the door for a much bigger assembly by the majority as a whole within the rashtra. Only that the regime in Delhi should be aware of the chain reaction - which need not be immediate. Although an immediate reaction would be better for Delhi - because the more delayed the reaction is, the more thorough and unrelenting will it be.

AKalam · Post by **AKalam** » 24 Feb 2011 02:56

Art. 370 may not need to be scrapped entirely, but provisions can be made for investors/managers and skilled labor migration to setup businesses to increase employment for unemployed youth.

Demographic rearrangement works, as we have seen in Chakma areas of CHT in Bangladesh or Xinjiang and Tibet in PRC. Instead of sending in the less educated hordes in the cases mentioned which is the main source of friction, if educated and wealthy investors, management personnel and skilled labor move in, with the protection from adequate security personnel, then they should be welcome as creators of economic growth and opportunity.

The goal of Azadi movement is foolhardy at best, based on two nation theory and Muslim separatism that created much intractable problems in the subcontinent.

- it is a goal to become a part of Pakistan, a failed disintegrating state, a pawn of US/PRC
- or to become a landlocked independent Kashmir, a practical impossibility considering the strategic importance of the location to India, PRC and Pakistan, none of whom are interested to give up land. Even if the impossible became possible, then this tiny state would promptly become a highly unstable pawn in a perpetual tug of war of superpower politics of all regional and great powers, US, PRC, India, Pakistan and probably Russia as well

I think the KM's are trying to maximize the gift of their strategic location by engaging in blackmailing in the name of Azadi, just because they can get away with such antics. It just shows poverty of leadership of KM community. India should make a calculated move, amend Art. 370 with the express intention of creating lucrative jobs for all Kashmiri's (Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist etc.), where they should be given preference, if they have the required skill or can be easily trained, before hiring necessary skilled people from outside the state. That will be a win win for all Kashmiris (KM's included) as well as for India. The current status quo is a lose lose for both KM's and India, while it allows outsiders (US, Pakistan or PRC) the room to create trouble.

Organic fruit farming, tourism, resorts, bottled fresh glacial water are just some of the possibilities I can think of. Infusion of capital and skill cannot be a bad thing for any society.