Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

[Lalmohan]

what is required is for the indian state (and by that i really mean the political parties) to stick to the letter of the secular law when dealing with all communities - no not playing on my half of the board, and no not being able to take my pieces. same rules for everyone. if the indian state can universally operate on that basis (and i know all the reasons that it doesnt) then there is no real need to worry about religiously motivated deviations from the law

[shiv]

http://www.straitstimes.com/Project_Syn ... 35313.html

Brahma Chellaney: 'Our' Islamists

Published on Nov 18, 2011


NEW DELHI - Following the death of Libya's Muammar Gaddafi, Libya's interim government announced the 'liberation' of the country. It also declared that a system based on sharia (Islamic law), including polygamy, would replace the secular dictatorship that Gaddafi ran for 42 years. Swapping one form of authoritarianism for another seems a cruel letdown after seven months of Nato airstrikes in the name of democracy.

In fact, the Western powers that brought about regime change in Libya have made little effort to prevent its new rulers from establishing a theocracy. But this is the price that the West willingly pays in exchange for the privilege of choosing the new leadership. Indeed, the cloak of Islam helps to protect the credibility of leaders who might otherwise be seen as foreign puppets.

For the same reason, the West has condoned the rulers of the oil sheikhdoms for their longstanding alliance with radical clerics. For example, the decadent House of Saud, backed by the United States, not only practices Wahhabi Islam - the source of modern Islamic fundamentalism - but also exports this fringe form of the faith, gradually snuffing out more liberal Islamic traditions. Yet, when the Saudi Crown Prince died recently, the US stood by silently as the ruling family appointed its most reactionary Islamist as the new heir to the throne.

So intrinsic have the Arab monarchs become to US interests that the Americans have failed to stop these cloistered royals from continuing to fund Muslim extremist groups and madrasas in other countries. From Africa to South and Southeast Asia, Arab petrodollars have played a key role in fomenting militant Islamic fundamentalism that targets the West, Israel, and India as its enemies. The US interest in maintaining pliant regimes in oil-rich countries trumps all other considerations.

[RamaY]

Mom wants to visit Ajmer Shareef. Why, because everyone else seems to be doing it.
Her reasoning - God exists in everything so why shun one specific place of worship just because I have historical issues (and remember part of her immediate family had to migrate in horrible conditions from Kashmir in 1990 under threats by Islamic fanatics who were taught in the ideology of ... Sufis)

Now how does one fight this SD idea of God in everything v/s Islamic Trojan horses in the mask of saints. Expand the same emotional quandrum and see how hard it is to convince Hindus about most of these sufi's being hand in glove with Muslim hordes that would have killed,maimed or enslaved our ancestors in the past.
Heck even the most rabid ones are being lionised by no one else but us. I see more Hindus around these Pir Baba's than Muslims.

The Brahmans of the past have been demonised by all and sundry for being too rigid and stiff when it came to religion. One of the reason was that they were trying to protect the culture and soul of India against all the invading forces.

My humble thoughts...

True, God is everywhere and everything but that doesn't mean everything is equal. We don't bring in to the kitchen and vice-versa just because God is everything and everywhere. Since everything is God and God is everywhere, everything has a place and time.

Our duty is to stand for and protect Dharma. Adharmic & Asuric forces and ideologies come time and time and we need to be aware of it. Even God Narasimha slayed Asuric (tendency of) Hiranyakasapa (in reality they were Jaya and Bijaya) even though he gave birth to a godly Prahlada. We all need to do our duty.

Please remind her about BhagavatGita where Bhagavan Krishna encouraged Arjuna to fight his own brothers and relatives to protect Dharma. Amma/mother is doing her Dharma by standing for Hinduism and denouncing Adharmic ideology. Going to Adharmic ideology centers is equivalent to her supporting Ravana when Sita-mata is lying in Ashokavanam under custody.

The God is us is asking us to destroy the Tamas (the ego/ahamkara) that exists in the other person. This is done by slaying the Adharmic forces in physical world. In the larger karmic world these deeds are as meaningful and necessary as doing Puja. For exmaple if we write the unified equations for slaying an Asuric force and Satyanarayana vrata, they would look very same.

[SBajwa]

Going back to Genetic history again. Though I am not a doctor but if somebody's great-great grandfather was a Ghazi (killed Kafirs) then that person already has the propensity to kill kaafirs.

Normal folks who are born with different genetic pools coming together will not try to hurt other normal people and hope that other normal people do not do the same to them.

Now if father A and Mother B are both relatives (first cousins) and they both hate Kaafirs and they produce a child C. That child will 100% hate Kaafirs.

Now Child C marries the daughter of the sister of Father-A called Sister-A What are the kids going to be? 400% haters? This is true for a vast majority of Islamic society in India, Pakistan and elsewhere.

How do you argue/talk have chai/biskoot sessions with people who have hate enshrined in their DNA (especially against you)? no argument will push them over.

[harbans]

ROP obviously plays completely a different ball game. No doubt about that. How we tackle that 'Chess' conundrum is key. There was a GDF discussion of some sorts and i reiterate my stand there. Get back to this countries ethos: Satyameva Jayate. Spell out the truth as you see it. Think tanks dominated by the BKs are not going to spell it out for you. One needs to know it's plain wrong when BK says Paki's are not a threat but China is. Truth has a strange way of functioning in this world. Firstly the people who use it are called names, secondly when many use it they are called radicals, then when more use it..xyz-phobes..and so on. Applies to one's understanding of ROP too.

The version of our culture by outsiders specially the equation of Dharma=religion, must be dispensed with. Dharma is righteousness and character intertwined appropriately. I see no word in the English language to explain the concept appropriately. It's deeply Indic and encompasses Jains, Shiv, Vishnu, Ganesh, Durga, Dvait, advait, Vedic, Nyaya, Sikh, Mahayana, Hinayana schools of thought. Every one of the people born into these faiths understand it. The majority outside cannot make sense of Dharma.

Our Constitution must be based on Dharma. It should be amended in such a way we promulgate Dharmic'ness' in others of Indic origin but external faith. A titular head should be shuttled between various dharmic sects/ faiths. The idea is to remind people that this is a Dharmic nation at core. Even our present liberal antics vis a vis Paki's and China are to an extent only Dharmic based. Dharmic'ness' is not an inculcation or state upholding some ritualistic practise. It's upholding Satyameva Jayate, the equanimity that results in justice, the compassion and tolerance that results in plurality..the very reason that civilizational values are enshrined in the edicts of the state as opposed to Paki's or Somali's, the very reason that democracy and a rule of law succeeds in India and not other developing countries..China included. IT is still the innate Dharmic in us that sustains the core values of this nation.

A Dharmic body/ party that is inclusive of these will gain enormous ground amongst people in India. It will strike a very deep chord as opposed to the 'parochialism' of Hindutva. It's time India rallies round a new 'faith' and this is Dharmic. It's value systems easy for everyone to associate with..truth, tolerance, compassion, pluralism, uprightness of character in pursuing the former. Not religious connotations or qualities but that of those that come with character evolution. They all translate to a large support base cutting across many language and 'religious' barriers. It would bring into fold as Truth is a KEY character into laws against 'anti-blasphemy promulgations', bring multiple Abrahmics in the land under a Dharmic fold. It would bring in closer relations with the Tibetan and Myanmarese and SE communities who have always looked to India. Any race or religious person that thinks it's OK to be Dharmic becomes one, no baptization needed..just faith in the evolutionary process of the Human mind and nature that one can evolve to Truth, equanimity, compassion, tolerance, plurality (As long as it acknowledges the former) and yes the ability to stand firmly in defense of these. This is not too difficult to achieve in a 5-10 year time frame. If 5 people get it today, 500 million people will get it 10 years from now. The world maybe in another 20. But it will come about. I see that as the only chance the World has before it slips into the abyss of mindless confrontation. JMHT/

[Prem]

religious leaders lean towards centres of political power, its a symbiotic relationship - each feeds and justifies the other
all cultures, all religions
sufis are no different

Sir ji,
Check the Music Dhaga and the link i posted yesterday.It corroborates the truth in your statement.The network of Sooffiee spies was extensive.

[shiv]

Going back to Genetic history again. Though I am not a doctor but if somebody's great-great grandfather was a Ghazi

Technically it's not so straightforward as this. It is slightly more complex.

As an analogy, imagine a herd of 100 elephants on a plain in Africa and a big drought occurs. Imagine that 30 elephants have their brains genetically wired to turn to the west where there happens to be a permanent water source and that the other 70 have genes that make them search in the east. Over many seasons of drought the 70 who turned east will die of thirst and their children (genes) will not survive. But the ones that turned west will survive and eventually you have a population of elephants who tend to turn west if there is drought, descended from the original 30.

The genetic story of Pakistan is more likely to be as follows:

An Islamic killer repeatedly attacks a population of Hindus. This killer has a bully gene (Bully Gene King?). Kill the weak women and children gene.

The Hindus have genes of two types.One set of genes causes the men to fight, sending the woman and children away to the east for safety. Another set of genes makes them surrender and instantly accept the overlordship of the raiding Ghazi.

What happens is that the children of the women who went east will have the genes that make them want to fight after protecting their women and children. The children of the people who surrendered immediately will be surrender monkeys of Pakistan. They will convert and behave exactly like their ancestor. They will be aggressive against anyone, man, woman or infant who is seen as weak. They will downhill ski, surrender 90,000 at a time or reach accommodation with anyone whom they see as stronger.

That is the genetics of Pakistan in a nutshell.

[shiv]

The version of our culture by outsiders specially the equation of Dharma=religion, must be dispensed with. Dharma is righteousness and character intertwined appropriately. I see no word in the English language to explain the concept appropriately. It's deeply Indic and encompasses Jains, Shiv, Vishnu, Ganesh, Durga, Dvait, advait, Vedic, Nyaya, Sikh, Mahayana, Hinayana schools of thought. Every one of the people born into these faiths understand it. The majority outside cannot make sense of Dharma.

Our Constitution must be based on Dharma. It should be amended in such a way we promulgate Dharmic'ness' in others of Indic origin but external faith

You know, when we talk of dharma, there are many interesting ways of looking at the world. For example, you compare human behavior with the perceived behavior of animals. You have a fierce aggressive person who dominates others and you call him a tiger. Another person is meek and generally stays in the background and he is called a mouse. A good swimmer is compared to a fish. A prankster is compared to a monkey. People who remain faithful despite ill treatment are compared to dogs. People who eat anything and grow fat are pigs. In turn these people are treated by others as the corresponding animals are treated.

With what animal do you compare a person who does not care if his kind live in a sewer, comes to pick your food when you are not looking, gets driven away or killed but continues to breed and never learns? Cockroach. Pakistanis are like cockroches. Pakroaches in other words.

The only treatment for cockroaches involves keeping them out and killing any that come your way. You can train a pig, but not a cockroach.

[harbans]

You know, when we talk of dharma, there are many interesting ways of looking at the world.

When one see's through the eyes of Dharma, the Paki does resemble a 'cockroach' closely.(Apologies to the Cockroach though for the equation). Paki's are doing everything adharmic.

That's exemplified in the BG. Arjuna seeing the assemble enemy through 'liberal' eyes and shedding fake tears of brother, cousin, uncle hood. Krishna gets sort of annoyed with Arjuns inability to see through the enemy as it is. It's only after teh lecture on Dharma is over that Arjuna starts to see the Kaurava for what they really are representing. Paki's have obviously gone way beyond. It's the adharmic amongst us who will see brotherhood in the Paki's.

[Lalmohan]

al hakimi - too simplistic if i may say so. what about the 'nature versus nurture' debate. in this case nurture is far more important... the ghazi culture is learned, and exploits a selfish gene. the two may be symbiotic, but the gene per se is agnostic towards its victims

[shiv]

al hakimi - too simplistic if i may say so. what about the 'nature versus nurture' debate. in this case nurture is far more important... the ghazi culture is learned, and exploits a selfish gene. the two may be symbiotic, but the gene per se is agnostic towards its victims

You are attempting to introduce real science into a discussion about Pakis?

[Lalmohan]

assuming psychology is a real science!

[shiv]

assuming psychology is a real science!

Well it's science like history (and even some aspects of medicine). Scientific method can be applied, but "proof" may not be possible. Having said that there is no known gene for killing Hindus, nor any gene for converting or surrendering at the slightest sign of opposition. It's the unknown ones that Pakis have in abundance.

Piskology is pure science though. Always 400% halal

[Lalmohan]

M768GZ is the marker for the hindu-kush gene no?

[shiv]

M768GZ is the marker for the hindu-kush gene no?

I have no idea.

[brihaspati]

Mom wants to visit Ajmer Shareef. Why, because everyone else seems to be doing it.
Her reasoning - God exists in everything so why shun one specific place of worship just because I have historical issues (and remember part of her immediate family had to migrate in horrible conditions from Kashmir in 1990 under threats by Islamic fanatics who were taught in the ideology of ... Sufis)

Now how does one fight this SD idea of God in everything v/s Islamic Trojan horses in the mask of saints. Expand the same emotional quandrum and see how hard it is to convince Hindus about most of these sufi's being hand in glove with Muslim hordes that would have killed,maimed or enslaved our ancestors in the past.
Heck even the most rabid ones are being lionised by no one else but us. I see more Hindus around these Pir Baba's than Muslims.

The Brahmans of the past have been demonised by all and sundry for being too rigid and stiff when it came to religion. One of the reason was that they were trying to protect the culture and soul of India against all the invading forces.

My humble thoughts...

True, God is everywhere and everything but that doesn't mean everything is equal. We don't bring in to the kitchen and vice-versa just because God is everything and everywhere. Since everything is God and God is everywhere, everything has a place and time.

Our duty is to stand for and protect Dharma. Adharmic & Asuric forces and ideologies come time and time and we need to be aware of it. Even God Narasimha slayed Asuric (tendency of) Hiranyakasapa (in reality they were Jaya and Bijaya) even though he gave birth to a godly Prahlada. We all need to do our duty.

Please remind her about BhagavatGita where Bhagavan Krishna encouraged Arjuna to fight his own brothers and relatives to protect Dharma. Amma/mother is doing her Dharma by standing for Hinduism and denouncing Adharmic ideology. Going to Adharmic ideology centers is equivalent to her supporting Ravana when Sita-mata is lying in Ashokavanam under custody.

The God is us is asking us to destroy the Tamas (the ego/ahamkara) that exists in the other person. This is done by slaying the Adharmic forces in physical world. In the larger karmic world these deeds are as meaningful and necessary as doing Puja. For exmaple if we write the unified equations for slaying an Asuric force and Satyanarayana vrata, they would look very same.

This may sound harsh : but goody-goody logic is less effective than shocking and aggressive logic for people who have lost their own sense of justice - even on ideological terms.

With all due respects, if it is possible - raise the possibility that women get attracted to Islam because of its projection [pretended or more accurately adolescent bravado] of masculinity and power. All other excuses - of God being there everywhere - are rationalizations of that inner desire. If God was everywhere - why are Hindus and cognate faiths so much so scared of going to Naraka or having to pay for sins? God will be there in Naraka too isnt it? Is God present on the spot at Ajmer sharif where Sufi authors say that everyday the first founder and his followers brought a cow and slaughtered it to teach the locals a lesson. If nothing else - God must have been present there then by the same logic? When the founders of this tradition there deliberately decided to agonize and psychologically torture a native population - she still thinks that the place is holy and shows presence of God? What is her concept of God then - one who indulges in such torturing of humans - especially their souls?

My apologies for perhaps being so harsh on a mother. I have not hesitated to say same things to my own mother when she wondered about the possibility of Hindu women taking to Muslim husbands out of genuine love or seeing genuine devotion/dedication that they perhaps did not see among men from their own community. [She had a Muslim childhood friend from a rich Muslim background, who ultimately became a mistress of a wealthy Hindu doctor. Similarly there was a Hindu girl friend who had eloped and married a Muslim man fleeing a rather abusive Hindu husband. I have seen the second husband who gave up beef and even namaaz or Eid in the traditional way, for his wife. They made payas/paramanna on Eid]. There were many other arguments - but among them I did mention the above logic. She is generally anti-Islam though so it was easier for me to argue.

[Jarita]

Mom wants to visit Ajmer Shareef. Why, because everyone else seems to be doing it.
Her reasoning - God exists in everything so why shun one specific place of worship just because I have historical issues (and remember part of her immediate family had to migrate in horrible conditions from Kashmir in 1990 under threats by Islamic fanatics who were taught in the ideology of ... Sufis)

Now how does one fight this SD idea of God in everything v/s Islamic Trojan horses in the mask of saints. Expand the same emotional quandrum and see how hard it is to convince Hindus about most of these sufi's being hand in glove with Muslim hordes that would have killed,maimed or enslaved our ancestors in the past.
Heck even the most rabid ones are being lionised by no one else but us. I see more Hindus around these Pir Baba's than Muslims.

The Brahmans of the past have been demonised by all and sundry for being too rigid and stiff when it came to religion. One of the reason was that they were trying to protect the culture and soul of India against all the invading forces.

I have same issue with not just Mom but every family member. The recent crop of Hindu gurus with god is everywhere and a very dualistic abrahamic god have thoroughly confused the masses and made them apathetic. This Sufi rubbish needs to be revealed for what it is - no different from the saffron robe wearing padres.
Particularly irritating is when you ask people to take action and they say Bhagwan will take care of it.

[vishvak]

I have same issue with not just Mom but every family member. The recent crop of Hindu gurus with god is everywhere and a very dualistic abrahamic god have thoroughly confused the masses and made them apathetic. This Sufi rubbish needs to be revealed for what it is - no different from the saffron robe wearing padres.
Particularly irritating is when you ask people to take action and they say Bhagwan will take care of it.

My 2 sone ka sikka only! Perhaps a difference is present, and that is deities. Or why Hindus goto pilgrimage of Amarnath cave and not a grave usually. A detailed approach could be explained over time, such as death - as absence of balance (Shiva) in body(Maya), etc - thus ignoring else. In a way, Hinduism could be explained in a rather rational manner, and philosophies such as Sankhya etc can be leveraged much better. As also pointing out how Hindu religions and people have been mistreated over time.

Just suggesting reading a book Myth=Mythya by Devadatta Pattanaika, or similar, has explained well with examples( very important) in terns of Unit-level (Shiva<->Parvati as balance<->existence), at social level(Vishnu<->Laxmi as Responsibility(active part of society)<->Resources(passive part of responsibility) ), at wisdom level( Brahma<-Saraswati as creater<->knowledge), etc. could do wonders.

This is only rational part btw.

[Prem]

God is everywhere and everything is for those who have realized the YYltimate Truth, one with it and immune to further influence.Till then, AFAIK, discrimination must be exercised so that one dont loose the path and go astray. A wise man once said that when you know the path and invited to the inner living quarters of His Lordship then why seek and ask the way to the toilet of the house. There are valid reasons to keep that particular place and use away from the sacred inner sanctrum, both, figurativly and physically .

[member_19686]

Geographic location of samples analyzed in the present study. Frequencies of East Asian, West Eurasian, and Indian lineages are shown in white, pale gray, and dark gray, respectively.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/ ... 1160a.html

Where West Meets East: The Complex mtDNA Landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian Corridor

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9707643523

[Lalmohan]

Surasena - the article is quite technical, any chance you (or other person) can decipher it for lay-people?

[niran]

the first link:
it proves Hakeem Shiv hypothesis that supposedly half a million slave never reached Central Asia
they remained in current day Pakistan.

the 2nd link is too long i have short attention span.

[Lalmohan]

the chart would indicate significant indian genes in some parts of central asia - either as remnant populations or later infusions...

[niran]

^^ some portion of the Chromosomes studied and found similar impart hair color, eye color,
and given the similarity of the colors it ain't surprising few similarity is found. the summary in anglaise,
Indians are different from Central Asians and there is no proof which is beyond any reasonable doubt of sudden influx of huge amount of slaves from India, which we are dissing and cussing over here.

[Lalmohan]

the areas which appear to have some indian genes - appear to be beyond the sindhu-kushan boundary - perhaps ferghana/transoxania - but i agree no real proof of the slave trade

someone was talking about black genes amongst arabs - i actually see quite frequent occurances of black characteristics in arab populations, north africa more than gulf, for obvious reasons. one european population with strongly recurring black genes are the portuguese - and surprisingly even amongst the english (slightly less) where black ancestors from the late middle and early global expansion days can show up after skipping a few generations.

someone here linked an article on bengali and other eastern indian lashkars settling in english ports in the victorian era - these men numbered in the tens of thousands and were absorbed into the white host, just like black sailors were. their genes also show up every now and again in otherwise white families. but being indo-european the differences are less marked than with black-europeans.

[Vikas]

Problem is no one knows the background story of these Sufi's. If not for BRF even I would have been singing Sufi songs and enjoying Qawalis by Paki singers. I need to evangelize this information on Sufi Baba's for whom Kaffir's were only to be converted and humiliated.

[Agnimitra]

4) Building up a non-state 15-million strong fighting force of Dharmic monk-soldiers. Something like a cross between Guru-Shishya tradition, RSS, Shaolin Temple and Blackwater (Hope nobody sniggers at this ).

Why "monk" soldiers?

[Prem]

4) Building up a non-state 15-million strong fighting force of Dharmic monk-soldiers. Something like a cross between Guru-Shishya tradition, RSS, Shaolin Temple and Blackwater (Hope nobody sniggers at this ).Why "monk" soldiers?

RajeshA, Now you have done the stealing , add the annual festival of martial art dance with kesria all over. Monk Soldiers are natural candidate for doing the work without attachment.

[shiv]

When we talk of large populations being taken as slaves a few things need to be kept in mind. We have no real idea of the population of the world say 20,000, or 5000, or 1000 years ago. There are some studies suggesting that India had a relatively large population way back then -(I mean 1 to 5 thousand years ago) simply because of climate. The large number if genes "coming in" was definitely migrations from bullshit areas to live that are still uninhabitable over large areas - and that include parts of Iran. Baluchistan and Central Asia.

No one who settled in India would actually have wanted to opt out especially if all those theories about Indian economy being 20% of world economy were true. It would have been like an Indian wanting to settle in Yamrika in 60s and 70s.

While trying to search for estimates of world populations in the past I came across this paper - New Scientist
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... -boom.html

Thirty-five thousand years before nanotechnology became a buzzword, a different kind of diminutive innovation transformed India. The advent of stone microblades set the stage for the subcontinent's explosive population growth, new research suggests.

The easy-to-manufacture tools – also known as microliths – were a vast improvement over larger stone flake tools used previously, says Michael Petraglia, an archaeologist at the University of Oxford, UK, who led the study. Because microblades could be cut from stone more quickly and in higher volumes than flakes, hunting probably became a vastly more efficient endeavour.
<snip>
"It's a mystery why there are so many people in that part of the world and it wasn't just domestication that led to more than a billion people being around in South Asia. We argue that is has to go back to a much earlier period."

Straus, who mentored Petraglia in the 1980s, buys that argument, but says populations could only swell so much in the ice age period. "We're still talking about hunter-gatherers; hunter-gatherers are never found in hugely dense numbers," he says.

Ofer Bar-Yosef, a paleoanthropologist at Harvard University says the discovery of widespread microblade use in India 30,000 years ago "closes an important gap in our knowledge." Similar tools have been found from around this period in Africa, Europe and west Asia.

But climate change isn't necessary to spur technological innovation and adoption, Bar-Yosef says. Hominins that predated modern humans wielded stone axes that changed little over hundreds of thousands of years and numerous wild climatic swings.

[shiv]

the areas which appear to have some indian genes - appear to be beyond the sindhu-kushan boundary - perhaps ferghana/transoxania - but i agree no real proof of the slave trade

someone was talking about black genes amongst arabs - i actually see quite frequent occurances of black characteristics in arab populations, north africa more than gulf, for obvious reasons. one european population with strongly recurring black genes are the portuguese - and surprisingly even amongst the english (slightly less) where black ancestors from the late middle and early global expansion days can show up after skipping a few generations.

someone here linked an article on bengali and other eastern indian lashkars settling in english ports in the victorian era - these men numbered in the tens of thousands and were absorbed into the white host, just like black sailors were. their genes also show up every now and again in otherwise white families. but being indo-european the differences are less marked than with black-europeans.

Lalmullah, I read both papers briefly. concentrating on what I could understand and observations and conclusions. The impression I gained is that at least one paper seeks to prove the point that Europeans populated Central Asia. Maybe they are trying to disprove the historic rahrah of central Asians dominating Europe.

In general, the further you go from the Indus towards Central Asia - the smaller the percentage of "Indian" genes, which is very small to begin with. On the other hand the Indian valley area itself has Indian genes with West Eurasian and East Asian genes. The India populations studied were about 190 people from India from UP, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan and Kashmir. They had 58% Indian genes, 33 % west Eurasian and about 9% East Asian genes. The first paper also states that in West Eurasia and East Asia the genes are all from that region, not a mix. But Central Asia is a mix of mainly West Eurasian and East Asian genes as shown in the map. Very little Indian genes that gradually decrease in proportion the further you go from the Indus.

In fact this does indeed support (or not disprove) my hypothesis that "slaves" from Northern India were probably taken as far as Pakistan and not too much further. And "Hindu kush" were people from those "now Pakistan" areas being taken further with not much success. The change of allegiance from Hindu to the religion of the raider makes Pakis deny that it was slavery and rape. That leaves only Hindus whining about being enslaved and raped. At least they thought it fit to remember even if they ended up feeling that they were the lowest of the low.

But in Central Asia the low numbers of Indian genes (even making a statistical correction for the fact that "Indian genes" have a West Eurasian component, as mentioned in paper 1) suggests to me that the other historic evidence we can find is equally valid. Slaves were traded from Turkey and Greece and Egypt. Slave girls were brought along and impregnated. Al Beruni himself had bought a Greek slave girl. I doubt if he used her merely to carry his suitcases and take down notes.

[Singha]

one reason could be logistics. the trade routes through central asia, iran, around the caspian basin, the black sea are much easier logistically for people and goods to move, esp if large boats can be used part of the way.
vs the paki-afghan frontier where limited routes, baluchi desert and hostile afghan terrain make it tough. there are few if any large rivers or lakes flowing from afghanistan into central asia and none from pakistan into afghanistan to my knowledge.

[Murugan]

Other group of slaves settled in east pakistan ?

Bangladesh population 14 Crore
Pukistani 17 Crore

(The slave thingy looks uncertain. It was voluntary or forced conversions or conversions by group/state/princely state heads that lead to changes in religion of masses)

[Lalmohan]

the dynamics of conversion in east bengal are very different to formerly democratically elected west bangladesh (aka pakistan). from what i have read, the muslims were elites only for much of the time whilst the settled populations (mostly west bengal and cultivated regions of east bengal) remained hindu and the hinterland remained "animist". in the late mughal period - sufism coupled with economic incentives of forest clearance and rice cultivation started spreading islam into the dense jungles of the delta hinterland. for a period this remained a hybrid islam - not fully halaal, but over time it became so. remnants of the non-halaal islam are still seen all over west bengal, e.g. sundarbans area where bon-bibi (the godess of the jungle) is a deity to hindus and muslims alike. the racial make up of bengal as a whole is quite complex - with quite distinct components.

[Murugan]

also in the case of punjab, kashmir and sindh of pukistan, the dynamics of conversion are different. But taking of slaves from hinterland, they halted somewhere in today's pukistan and than they settled down there etc looks little far fetched.

[Lalmohan]

no, the slaves are in situ, they didn't move very far
and even slave is the wrong word - subjugated population is more accurate

[Murugan]

converted population/subjugated looks more accurate. Yes.

[johneeG]

what is required is for the indian state (and by that i really mean the political parties) to stick to the letter of the secular law when dealing with all communities - no not playing on my half of the board, and no not being able to take my pieces. same rules for everyone. if the indian state can universally operate on that basis (and i know all the reasons that it doesnt) then there is no real need to worry about religiously motivated deviations from the law

There are two ways of doing this:
a) give importance to all religions.
b) give no importance to any religion.
Which method are you suggesting?

[Lalmohan]

the latter

[Supratik]

Lal is right. Slaves in the "settled" period would be in situ. Unlike the EIC, the Muslim rulers of
the subcontinent did not have much real estate or interests outside the subcontinent so as to
require export of slaves. But I believe strongly that the Romanis were slaves taken during the "raiding" period. It is difficult to perceive Indians moving West in the direction of the invaders voluntarily.

[johneeG]

the latter

Govts are made up of people. So, the Govt reflects the views of the individuals involved. So, unless the Govt is made up of(or dominated by) athiests, it cannot be irreverent to religions. But athiests believe religion to be root of conflicts, so they would want to encourage athiesm through the systematic destruction of religions. The primary target would be the dominant religion. To destroy the dominant religion, they would find tactical alliance with the religious minority useful. Indian commies seem to have evolved in this manner.