Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 08 Jan 2013 13:47

Sanku wrote:
Sushupti wrote:
VIce-President Hamid Ansari and Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi at a meeting in New Delhi on Monday.

Oh no even Modi is a windbag onlee....

Aren't you aware of this? You don't earn the title of "Windbag" just for hugging a "Peaceful".

You shouldn't compare Mirza Raja Jaisingh with Shivaji

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 14:02

Anand K wrote:(BTW, what is a phrase like "Nehruvian consensus" in an article focusing on economic matters? I mean, you here this phrase when we talk about Indian Constitution, UCC, Fundamenal Rights and DPSPs etc. When it comes to economics, back then sans Rajaji and the Swatantra Party there was pretty much overwhelming support for the economic plans. Is it a snipe at YIKES secularism and media and the like? )

Well, you can't accuse the author of being vague...He makes it clear that he uses the phrase to refer to the entire 'left-liberal' establishment across economic, media, NGO, academia and other circles- not sure how you missed that. Also he explicitly mentions that for Thatcher, fixing the economy was the first step (though perhaps one of the most key ones) in a journey that was intended to go much beyond economics.

But frankly, I wouldn't use the phrase myself. "Dynasty consensus" is perhaps a more appropriate term - I mean, blaming everything on Nehru just doesn't do justice to the continuous decline in IQ of the Dynasty and its supporters with each passing generation. My guess is Nehru probably had just about enough grey matter to have himself called off any 'consensus' misusing his name had he been alive now.

Lastly, Gujarat's economy of 2000-2012 (and before that decade) is hardly the same as late 70s Britain. IMO what happened in Gujarat was Modi utilizing his innate skills, his many years of experience as a back-office manager in Gujarat to remake key departments, close ranks up in the executive and consolidate power.

Why are we talking of Gujarat's economy? In case you missed it - the article is about Modi's potential PM candidacy and what he should be doing at the national stage.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 08 Jan 2013 14:22

Arjun wrote:
Lastly, Gujarat's economy of 2000-2012 (and before that decade) is hardly the same as late 70s Britain. IMO what happened in Gujarat was Modi utilizing his innate skills, his many years of experience as a back-office manager in Gujarat to remake key departments, close ranks up in the executive and consolidate power.
Why are we talking of Gujarat's economy? In case you missed it - the article is about Modi's potential PM candidacy and what he should be doing at the national stage.

Because the pitch is- "As it has been for Gujarat, it shall be for the rest of India".

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 08 Jan 2013 14:41

Arjun wrote:Well, you can't accuse the author of being vague...He makes it clear that he uses the phrase to refer to the entire 'left-liberal' establishment across economic, media, NGO, academia and other circles- not sure how you missed that. Also he explicitly mentions that for Thatcher, fixing the economy was the first step (though perhaps one of the most key ones) in a journey that was intended to go much beyond economics.

But frankly, I wouldn't use the phrase myself. "Dynasty consensus" is perhaps a more appropriate term - I mean, blaming everything on Nehru just doesn't do justice to the continuous decline in IQ of the Dynasty and its supporters with each passing generation. My guess is Nehru probably had just about enough grey matter to have himself called off any 'consensus' misusing his name had he been alive now.

Question was kinda rhetorical.
Economics is ok...... The "and much beyond" you just used, and hinted in an otherwise economy focused article, is too expansive and for moi to be comfortable. That's why I referred to Dharmic Constitution and Memes and snipe at secularism. But hey, let's see where this goes.

I ain't no adoring fan of Modi but I am not comfortable with everyone whaling on him either. If he really is the spearhead of the new thought and all that is sugar and spice and everything nice or whatever..... let him grow to challenge the current errr.... "system"/nation-state. I for one am very interested to see what would happen. At least the fight will be conclusive and one idea will quite possibly die in the fight. I think the INC top folk new line of "Who is this Modi to challenge the Central INC leadership? It's a non-issue thing!" is quite interesting. It's not pitting Modi as a challenger to the INC centre. But let's see if the "Yeevil System" is forced to sally from the Fort or if it would defeat the challenger from the battlements itself.

Also, despite the title of this thread I am not exactly sold on this Manichean Idea of how Modi reflects one side and "the dynasty" reflects the other. Leave alone the solutions both have for ruling India.

JMTC

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 14:43

Anand K wrote:Because the pitch is- "As it has been for Gujarat, it shall be for the rest of India".

Well the article itself is contrasting current-day India to 70s Britain, and talks of what Modi can do ala Thatcher to turn things around for the country.

So your bringing in Gujarat repeatedly is somewhat puzzling.

Anyhow, the pitch you've quoted refers to the output - that he'll achieve the same for the rest of India as he has for Gujarat.

To derive from that that he's going to follow the exact same means and leadership techniques as he has done in Gujarat, seems quite disingenuous to me. I think he knows just as well as others that there are some elements that will remain the same but many others that will have to evolve as he steps into the national stage.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 08 Jan 2013 14:56

Arjun ji as a pitch (not as executive SOP) - "As it has been for Gujarat, it shall be for the rest of India" seems a reasonable one with some tactical tinkering.

Because that is what is feared by his opponents. Helps demarcate territory, create definition. How can anybody defeat a mere proposition. Obama came up based merely on proposition. People like a simple solution. Nobody has the attention span to assess all the potential candidates against their detailed manifesto and performance.

Personally I like this but ready to be taught.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 14:58

Anand K wrote:At least the fight will be conclusive and one idea will quite possibly die in the fight.

Umm, to hope that within the next two years matters would come to a complete head is being too fanciful.

Much as I would like for the 'left liberals' across the country to wake up one morning and realize the depths of retardation they've plumbed, this process is likely to last at least a decade.

And clearly - center rights are the ones that will grow massively over the next few decades as the middle-class becomes bigger and the country urbanizes.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jan 2013 15:01

Sushupti wrote: You shouldn't compare Mirza Raja Jaisingh with Shivaji

Well I certainly did not see any claws in that picture.

You can see things either which way, I prefer to stick to reality.

Modi is a Windbag onlee (actually he is, he is a major follower of ABV, one of his biggest fans

)

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 15:08

ravi_g wrote:Arjun ji as a pitch (not as executive SOP) - "As it has been for Gujarat, it shall be for the rest of India" seems a reasonable one with some tactical tinkering.

Because that is what is feared by his opponents. Helps demarcate territory, create definition. How can anybody defeat a mere proposition. Obama came up based merely on proposition. People like a simple solution. Nobody has the attention span to assess all the potential candidates against their detailed manifesto and performance.

Personally I like this but ready to be taught.

Ravi ji, I think the urban middle class would like it...not sure if that slogan would be the best for attracting others tho'

Something around 'Asmita' or its Hindi / local translation (swabhimaan..) combined with a development message would also do very well.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 08 Jan 2013 15:11

Arjun wrote: Well the article itself is contrasting current-day India to 70s Britain, and talks of what Modi can do ala Thatcher to turn things around for the country.
So your bringing in Gujarat repeatedly is somewhat puzzling.

Anyhow, the pitch you've quoted refers to the output - that he'll achieve the same for the rest of India as he has for Gujarat.
To derive from that that he's going to follow the exact same means and leadership techniques as he has done in Gujarat, seems quite disingenuous to me. I think he knows just as well as others that there are some elements that will remain the same but many others that will have to evolve as he steps into the national stage.

The article was contrasting? It was drawing parallels all over the place, no?! And it is the article that states (or hopes?) that he's going to follow the exact same means and leadership techniques AND other "muscular qualities" as he has done in Gujarat.

What I am saying is, we have to wait till 2013 end and see what his stated plan for rest of India is. That is, if he makes it to the front lines. I brought in Gujarat simply because Gujarat is Gujarat. Modi's work became quite easy because of the culture, existing infra, demographics and nature of Gujarat. I think its safe to say that a place like that can work wonders in the hands of any single minded and unquestionably involved leader..... like Modi is. Also, caste politics haven't flowered as well as other states.... KHAM gave up the ghost way back in the 80s itself and Mandal barely made a dent there. Muslim numbers were never decisive. He has a lot of things going for him in his home turf.... not to mention his long odd years in Gujarati politics. Then there was the unique Godhra incident which DID give him some significant gains.

IMHO it is wishful speculation that he would and could and should do the same things in the rest of India and the black-n-white Mahayuddh view that's being peddled from all quarters. Anyway, we'll see for sure when he throws his hat in the ring and shows us his manifesto.

JMTC

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 15:23

Anand K wrote:What I am saying is, we have to wait till 2013 end and see what his stated plan for rest of India is. That is, if he makes it to the front lines. I brought in Gujarat simply because Gujarat is Gujarat. Modi's work became quite easy because of the culture, existing infra, demographics and nature of Gujarat. I think its safe to say that a place like that can work wonders in the hands of any single minded and unquestionably involved leader..... like Modi is. Also, caste politics haven't flowered as well as other states.... KHAM gave up the ghost way back in the 80s itself and Mandal barely made a dent there. Muslim numbers were never decisive. He has a lot of things going for him in his home turf.... not to mention his long odd years in Gujarati politics. Then there was the unique Godhra incident which DID give him some significant gains.

Leaving aside what the rest of India is likely to vote or not vote for, where does your own preference lie ? Dynasty ? Modi ? Commies?

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 08 Jan 2013 15:32

Arjun wrote:
Anand K wrote:At least the fight will be conclusive and one idea will quite possibly die in the fight.
Umm, to hope that within the next two years matters would come to a complete head is being too fanciful......

Beg to differ.
I think someone like Modi wouldn't want (or cannot risk) losing the momentum. How long will the bloom of his 2012 victory last.... i.e. in the minds of BJP top line and aam admi? Will he sustain his candidature in 2019 after say, a 2017 win? He doesn't have the command over the RSS-BJP-VHP-alphabet soup to take the long slogging route, like Gandhiji did with the INC despite "tactical failures" of 1922, 1930 and 1942.
Modi doesn't strike me as someone painstakingly spinning webs all over the place and building alliances and churning out reams of thought either. His political style and message is direct, intense, unapologetic and immediate. His media management is the same. He burns bridges with everyone who happened to be in organizations politically aligned against him. He ain't too civil in his criticism, no? I can't imagine RG and Modi sharing a light moment during the swearing in ceremony.

After his muscular posture w.r.t Hindutva in Gujarat, how will he deal with the Deccan, Gangetic Belt which has huge numbers of Muslims? He will either have to give lip service and make trades or simply exclude them. Either of this will come back to haunt him.
And if his pitch fails in 2014, it will be kinda stale 1-2-3-4-5 years later. Like RJB and the rath yatra. That is, if he survives his enemies inside the party.

Disjointed thoughts and rambles.... JMTC. Pliss to phorgive.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 08 Jan 2013 15:40

NM - whatever faults he actually has, whatever you think he has, whatever you think he might have that may come up when he goes national

is STILL better than the current lot.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 08 Jan 2013 15:50

Arjun ji he is just trying to psyche you.

The kind of electrorate that brought Congress to power pre-independence grew in strength and today is waiting for someone like Modi and an organisational support like the RSS. The problem is not with people it is within the Sangh. More specifically in their not striking a deal fast enough and starting the campaign.

Though he is right on one count. Miss in 2014 and Modi could be out of the race by next time. OTOH if he gets through then Kongis will be cut to sizes. So kongis are fighting for their life while Modi even after his death is a Sava lakh ka haathi.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 08 Jan 2013 16:02

Gus wrote:NM - whatever faults he actually has, whatever you think he has, whatever you think he might have that may come up when he goes national

is STILL better than the current lot.

Bang on target!

It is amusing to see some gymnastics of the NaMo opposers:
"I am not against Modi, but...",
"Gujarat is not India and India is not Gujarat...",
"Gujarat was easy, Modi will not succeed outside Gujarat...",
"Modi must compromise to be PM, he must learn to accomodate allies...(he must become like the die-nasty)",
"Modi must reach out to minorities...",

and on and on... with silly ramblings.

The same fellows are mute when it comes to sterling performance of the die-nasty figures. Oh, and Modi must learn to work with Raul Baba, hain ji?! How about Raul baba grow some brains?

The summary of all their arguments is, "Modi must continue the legacy of die-nasty just as die-nasty continues the legacy of the dear brits. The gravy-train must not be disturbed. Modi must learn to live with the system and must not jolt it."

arrey bhabha... if Modi becomes just like die-nasty, what is the need for Modi?

Modi has repeated again and again that as far as he is concerned, he intends to treat all citizens alike regardless of religious affiliations. But, in India, minorities want special concessions(economic, political, social, religious,...etc). Modi is not party to this attitude. Zimple.

Now, Modi-bash brigade advises Modi to change his attitude. If he does not change his attitude, they say that he will lose(courtesy the minorities who will rally against him).

So far, Modi has shown that he does not budge to such threats. On the hand, it is minorities who have learnt live like everyone else under his ruler-ship. This is the takleef...

What if Modi becomes PM and minorities in 'Gangetic belt', 'deccan' and 'S.T.N' also learnt to live like all other citizens...?! That would be a disaster for die-nasty and their phoren collaborators.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 08 Jan 2013 16:14

johneeG wrote:
Gus wrote:NM - whatever faults he actually has, whatever you think he has, whatever you think he might have that may come up when he goes national

is STILL better than the current lot.
Bang on target!

I hope you will not be disappointed when Modi enters the national stage.... after overcoming the hurdles (mainly intra-party) he faces AND sticking pristine to what you feel is his vision and his major initiatives.
As I said before, maybe you missed it while you were so amused, I TRULY WANT to see this big clash of ideas in the Indian mindspace. I want to see if it will be Modi vs the DIEnasty thingie. I want to see if there will be an actually a big clash of ideas for India's soul in the first place.

And if "Modi-the-spearhead" wins, so be it. May he cut Kongis or whatever your bugbears are to size and hear the lamentations of their women whatever. If he loses, well... lets see then. Zimble.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 08 Jan 2013 16:31

Anand K ji, a little correction please.

It is actually the Modi supporters who are wants him to "to give lip service and make trades or simply exclude" in the belief that it will help in the elections. Considering he showed the world how 'exclusion from privileges' can be achieved it is only right to conclude that he already is adept at using it as part of his strategy. The lip service and trades is something that can easily be managed. Congress managed this route for more then half a century.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 08 Jan 2013 16:46

Anand K wrote:
I hope you will not be disappointed when Modi enters the national stage.... after overcoming the hurdles (mainly intra-party) he faces AND sticking pristine to what you feel is his vision and his major initiatives.
As I said before, maybe you missed it while you were so amused, I TRULY WANT to see this big clash of ideas in the Indian mindspace. I want to see if it will be Modi vs the DIEnasty thingie. I want to see if there will be an actually a big clash of ideas for India's soul in the first place.

And if "Modi-the-spearhead" wins, so be it. May he cut Kongis or whatever your bugbears are to size and hear the lamentations of their women whatever. If he loses, well... lets see then. Zimble.

Well, you really don't have to worry about my 'disappointments' or 'bugbears', just as I don't care for your 'bugbears'.

So your stance is,"Oh, I am so amused only... I am neutral...err, but I think Modi will find it dipicult outside Gujarat. He must learn to work with Raul Baba and he must reach out to minorities of Gangetic belt and deccan. Lol, if he does that he won't be sticking to his 'pristine' vision of his fanbois. Oh, did I mention I am amused and waiting."

BTW, did I mention my 'feeling' of Modi's vision?! I simply repeated what Modi himself has said at several occasions. Maybe you are too smart to get that, or maybe you are distracted because you are so amused...

Also, why just minorities of 'gangetic belts' and 'deccan'? Are you not interested in minorities of S.TN?

So you think that Modi can't win outside Gujarat without compromise on his methods and ideologies? Fine, time will tell!

Anyway, your portrayal is quite interesting "cut to size and hear the lamentations of their women". I am only glad you did not talk of "cutting open the foetus with tridents".

Teesta Setalvaad seems to have a competition...

I am only happy that dear brits seem to have learned their place under the sun and have ended their boycott of Modi ji. That was my big bugbear, you know... I would have been disappointed and shattered, if the vaunted brits had not given their approval. You see I crave for the brit approval. Now, that Modi has got that, I am so happy.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 08 Jan 2013 17:29

So your stance is,"Oh, I am so amused only... I am neutral...err, but I think Modi will find it dipicult outside Gujarat. He must learn to work with Raul Baba and he must reach out to minorities of Gangetic belt and deccan. Lol, if he does that he won't be sticking to his 'pristine' vision of his fanbois. Oh, did I mention I am amused and waiting."

I am sure you took Reading Comprehension 101, Psychology 101 and Logic 101 back in school/college but you got this one wrong. There's so much good old Strawman Argument thingie too in your posts.... it's like punctuation!
What I stated was simply this - Modi's style is direct and take no prisoners. I don't see him even giving a nod to RG unlike the usual "relationships cutting across party lines". How did you get from there to "working with Rahul baba"? Also, whatever stand he takes w.r.t minorities due to his "muscular" and polarizing image (well earned or not is another matter) his choices will affect his chances. It doesn't matter if the minority is from S. TN or Nirmal.... his enemies will make sure their take on Modi is well delivered. How did you get from there to claiming that I argued that he *should* dilute/change/modify his stance?
Again, I WANT to see the great clash of ideas ... of contrasting ideas of India!

BTW, pray tell us how you think a leader of national stature grows and evolves? Like ganhiji turning from an ex NRI South Africa something to THE Gandhiji? Sometime back I hinted about how Gandhiji corresponded with Gokhale from 1899 and how he grew into the Colossus by 1915. ALL other "national leaders" were in the wake of this man or claimed his legacy. But how did he get there... is there any parallel we can draw with Modi? What I see here is an echo chamber chiming "Modi is great. He will be PM. All will be conquered. All will be good.".
If this "Ideas of India" great clash that people expect against INC or CPM or BSP.... he needs to at least match Gandhiji, if not exceed him. And when people say Modi will change everything.... I would like to know how and when..... and simply quoting his speeches and what he did in Gujarat is not a good answer IMO. Talk is cheap. What will happen when he steps out of his home base? I would like to guesstimate how he navigates national politics. What he can do outside Gujarat to make people believe him. Say, in the caste minefield of Karnataka or AP. Or dhimmified

Kerala?
And all is hitched on Modi the man? What's the Shadow cabinet? Who's the the tail of the comet? Is he rearing someone? Modi is 62.... how long will it take for him to make the changes. So who might be his successor if he is serious about the long term?

Anyway, your portrayal is quite interesting "cut to size and hear the lamentations of their women". I am only glad you did not talk of "cutting open the foetus with tridents". Teesta Setalvaad seems to have a competition...

Oooohhhhh. Where's that one about Haren Pandya murder.....or Sohrabuddin Sheikh encounter and Best Bakery Witness Threatening and Modi having a secret wife and that sex CD and Adani being Modi's binami?

PS: One thing you got right.... Gujarat is not India and India is not Gujarat. It's totally right and not just from political perspective.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 08 Jan 2013 17:34

ravi_g wrote:Anand K ji, a little correction please.

It is actually the Modi supporters who are wants him to "to give lip service and make trades or simply exclude" in the belief that it will help in the elections. Considering he showed the world how 'exclusion from privileges' can be achieved it is only right to conclude that he already is adept at using it as part of his strategy. The lip service and trades is something that can easily be managed. Congress managed this route for more then half a century.

Okay, we are getting somewhere.
Let him do exactly that! All is fair in love and war and politics. I would like to see scenarios and solutions spelled out here in detail. Like how is he going to take back Karnataka where BJP is in a weaker wicket. Or in a UP where RJB raged once.
Just a wish.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 17:54

Anand K wrote:Beg to differ.
I think someone like Modi wouldn't want (or cannot risk) losing the momentum. How long will the bloom of his 2012 victory last.... i.e. in the minds of BJP top line and aam admi? Will he sustain his candidature in 2019 after say, a 2017 win? He doesn't have the command over the RSS-BJP-VHP-alphabet soup to take the long slogging route, like Gandhiji did with the INC despite "tactical failures" of 1922, 1930 and 1942.

You started out saying 'the fight will be conclusive and one idea will possibly die'.

I am saying that I don't see any idea dying within the next 2 years with the election results. The battle of ideas is between 'left liberalism' and Moditva as an ideology. The latter has just taken shape over the last couple of years - and intellectuals are starting to congregate on the platform. This ideology for sure (which is independent of Modi) is just going to keep growing as a natural result of demographics and increasing education / urbanization.

Morover, 'left liberalism' as it is known and practiced in India will not die out so easily inspite of the obvious 'dunce-ness' of its supporters. So what I am saying is that the ideological battle is only going to intensify over the next decade.

Modi himself is the most obvious face of Moditva for the next several years - but obviously no ideology can afford to depend on one person alone. Lets not confuse the ideological battle with the battle of personalities.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 17:57

Ok Anand, you haven't answered my earlier question - what makes you such a big supporter of the Dynasty?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 08 Jan 2013 18:58

Anand K wrote: BTW, pray tell us how you think a leader of national stature grows and evolves?

These are some of the leaders of national stature we had in the past

V.P Singh. Chandrasekhar. PVNR. Fumble Harmer. Gujral. None of these people had influence outside their regions. Some of them were not even known by many until they became PM

MMS is no leader, forget about 'national stature'. The man is far removed from the problems affecting everybody except annai sonia.

The youth icon's record speaks loud and clear here

http://www.rahulgandhiachievements.com/

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Jan 2013 19:16

What is 'left liberalism'?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 08 Jan 2013 19:42

SwamyG wrote:What is 'left liberalism'?

Economically leftists (as in fundamentally redistributive ideas) coupled with supposed liberalism in the social and political arena.

Not to be confused with classical (or economic) liberalism that goes hand in hand with a rightist small-government small-taxes private enterprise-initiative etc mindset. Again, there the US right splits into the social conservatives (anti-gay, atheist types) and the libertarians (potheads, basically...).

Or so I think. Only.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 08 Jan 2013 19:48

Anyway, more than once I think it has been said that UPA3 or another third front remain far more likely candidates post 2014. 2014 ain't gonna cut it for NM. Not enough time perhaps. So let none say NM g\fans weren't being someway realistic or reasonable in their assessments. Only.

IMO, NM might be a Barry Goldwater type figure for the desi right. perhaps. Whose mere presence pushed the party and the polity a certain direction, angle, inclination. With effects lasting a generation. or more. Perhaps. Only.

Anyways, time will tell. In NM I see a visionary leader and not merely a myopic wheely-dealy politician. Deep down somewhere I know the odds of his taking Dilli are low. Deeper down, the heart still holds out in hope only, though. Either way, time tells all. Jai ho.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 20:22

Hari Seldon wrote:Economically leftists (as in fundamentally redistributive ideas) coupled with supposed liberalism in the social and political arena.

Absolutely...Even in the social arena, the left liberal ideology is largely 'redistributive' in some sense rather than in meritocratic progress...So support for politics of victimhood, votebanking politics, tolerance of ideologies that do not reciprocate by showing the same tolerance to the rest of society. Minorityism, casteism.....the list goes on.

I can't imagine how any reasonably educated person can possibly support this pile of smelly dung for ideology. Perhaps Anand can enlighten us here?

Not to be confused with classical (or economic) liberalism that goes hand in hand with a rightist small-government small-taxes private enterprise-initiative etc mindset.

Spot on..

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 20:47

Hmm. A timely report - some classical economic liberalism on display from Modi...

Economic freedom: Gujarat is No 1, Bihar at bottom

peter · Post by **peter** » 08 Jan 2013 20:48

SwamyG wrote:
peter wrote:But is'nt TN the first example of a state where Brahmins were booted out , almost like Kashmir, by the dravida nationalists?

Sought of an ethnic cleansing of a mild proportion?
Nope. Wrong. There is nothing mild about any ethnic cleansing. Sure, brahmins were targeted with insults and ridicules; there are cases when the rhetoric was to cut the poonal (janaiv/sacred thread) of brahmins, but nothing like J&K. This kind of unreasonable and disproportionate comparison is betrayal and phoo-phooing the horror that happened to the Pandits of J&K.

There is no booting off brahmins from TN. Sure, some brahmins left TN for greener pastures.

Are you a dravidian supporter?

K Elst seems to differ with you :

All through the 20th century and down till today, Tamil nationalism or "Dravidianism" has been allied with militant anti-Brahminical and generally anti-religious atheism, championed by Periyar Ramaswamy Naicker, the "father of the Tamil race". He summed up his hatred for the "northern, Aryan" Brahmins in his dictum: "If you see a snake and a Brahmin, kill the Brahmin first." Since the 1960s, Dravidianist parties have been taking turns at ruling India's state Tamil Nadu, and their two lasting achievements are the exodus of most Tamil Brahmins (to Mumbai, Bangalore and Silicon Valley) and the "purification" of the Tamil language of Sanskrit loanwords and of the chaste Brahminical style.

peter · Post by **peter** » 08 Jan 2013 20:54

peter wrote:
Gus wrote:^that's stretching it too far. How many had to leave because of threats? A few may have left for economic opportunities, but enterprising folks from that community always spread out with civil services etc.
Bal Thackeray made his career by harassing all the iyers and iyengars in Bombay. There was a big exodus. Ask a Tamilian from Mumbai.

Gus wrote: why are you bringing in bal thackeray's anti-tamil stance and activities in - to support a claim that DMK etc made a brahmin exodus out of TN (something almost like a pandit exodus out of Kashmir)?

What are you trying to say?

I am saying that the Dravidian parties created unlivable conditions for Brahmins in Tamil Nadu and this forced the Brahmins to move out.

Then they were stuck between a rock and a hard place in Bombay as Bal Thackeray had a go at them. They could not go back to Tamil Nadu as they had just been beaten out from there.

Tamil friends who were forced to migrate to Bombay and then beaten up by Shiva Sainiks have told me this first hand.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 08 Jan 2013 21:03

peter saar,
can you take this to OT thread.These are non-issues today.They 'might' have been issues once but hardly of the scale you are claiming.And the issues were primarily economic in a stagnant,stifled and suppressed economy courtesy briturds.

peter · Post by **peter** » 08 Jan 2013 21:04

I am not sure how Modi or BJP can win in UP and Bihar.

Has anyone done any math on BJP's chances state by state?

peter · Post by **peter** » 08 Jan 2013 21:05

svenkat wrote:peter saar,
can you take this to OT thread.These are non-issues today.They 'might' have been issues once but hardly of the scale you are claiming.And the issues were primarily economic in a stagnant,stifled and suppressed economy courtesy briturds.

Briturds are British? Are you saying Dravidians had no role?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 08 Jan 2013 21:38

The dravidians were 'guilty' of traffic violations,that was the nature of their 'crime'.Can we move on now, saar?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Jan 2013 22:32

All these hyphenated and almost hyphenated labels serve to only cause more confusion. Labels, to begin with, help us identify a concept or a person quickly. Some lables like man, father, husband, human ityadi do not preclude an individual from having other lables. However, some of the labels box the individual into very narrow compartments. We have come to realize these labels do no justice to the complexities and realities, hence the need for hyphenation or compound words.

Whatever be, it is ridiculous that Indian media, Indians, NGOs and several groups continue to use Western labels generously onto Indian framework. The BJP and INC are no different in most cases; there are strong Hindutva people in INC, there are INC politicians who are strong Hindus. So then how are these differnt from BJP politicians? So why call only BJP as 'right' ?

BJP and INC share liberal views on several front - be it economic or social. So why box either parties into compartments borrowed from the West?

My takleef is that even BRFites continue to succumb to such labels and work on problems that are non-existent. Words such as "redistribution" ityadi is from Western view/economic model. Ancient Indian statesmen, rishi, muni ityadi have constantly urged the Rajas to usher in welfare for the state's citizens. What becomes important is to discuss how one scheme or yojana of BJP compares with INC on a case to case basis, than brandishing this party is right, this party is left ityadi.

If BJP and NaMo, part ways for xyz reasons, and NaMo decides to create a new party or say join INC; would NaMo supporters continue to support? I am sure supporters will be split, some will not, and some will support him. And what if NaMo exhibits 'left liberalism', will his supporters throw him under the bus. I do not think so.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Jan 2013 22:37

peter wrote: I am saying that the Dravidian parties created unlivable conditions for Brahmins in Tamil Nadu and this forced the Brahmins to move out.

Then they were stuck between a rock and a hard place in Bombay as Bal Thackeray had a go at them. They could not go back to Tamil Nadu as they had just been beaten out from there.

Tamil friends who were forced to migrate to Bombay and then beaten up by Shiva Sainiks have told me this first hand.

Hogwash.......even if some incidents are true there was no sweeping or large scale hounding of Brahmins. Again, an agraharam or two could have been destroyed or targeted, but if you are going to extrapolate that to entire TN, then no amount of argument is going to convince you. I am a tamil brahmin, my wife is a telugu brahmin; our families have been living in TN for centuries. And there is no recollection of "unlivable conditions" in either side. There are some brahmins who have hatred & grudges against the DK regimes because of incidents, against one cannot generalize a few incidents to the whole of TN.

Am I a Dravidian supporter? I do not know what it is to support or oppose? What do you think a dravidan supporter does? While I have respect for Elst, as I have been following him for years, now - I can vouch for my family and a few more brahmin families. I have heard that brahmin and snake remarks so often. I have lived in TN for more than a few decades, so have several families.

Do you know that EVR was one strong Congress supporter, and was a real reformist - until Gandhi and Congress created ruckus with him via some Brahmins during Freedom struggle. He also called tamil a barbaric language. So?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 08 Jan 2013 22:37

If narendrabhai has to have any chance of winning elections at all-India level,he has to leave BJP.
Under the present system,the Cong has got its combination right-the mighty and powerful in most states which includes the honest and capable and a wide swathe of the numerically large groups across caste,language and region.

The only way he can become PM is if sections of Congress support him and he gets support of people like BSY,jayalalitha,naveen patnaik etc and the pro-hindu groups change the constitution to make it a Hindu friendly rashtra with clear demarcations in political rights and privileges for Hindu majority and the minorities to effectively deal with fundamentalism/separstism.

Also there must be a national agenda of justice for all and appeasement of none with progressive Hindu cultural nationalism being at the very crux of the national agenda.

I strongly feel that powerful groups within the Congress will break the party and join with modi.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Jan 2013 23:15

SwamyG wrote:Whatever be, it is ridiculous that Indian media, Indians, NGOs and several groups continue to use Western labels generously onto Indian framework. The BJP and INC are no different in most cases; there are strong Hindutva people in INC, there are INC politicians who are strong Hindus. So then how are these differnt from BJP politicians? So why call only BJP as 'right' ?

BJP and INC share liberal views on several front - be it economic or social. So why box either parties into compartments borrowed from the West?

SwamyG, I am not really sure how much you understand of economics...because your post above suggests to me that you may not have spent much time familiarizing yourself with the area.

Basically, there are various schools of thought within economics. A couple of well-known schools in the Indian context are the Jagdish Bhagwati and Amartya Sen schools of thought (please google for more information). Modi is the poster-child for the Jagdish Bhagwati school of thought and the Dynasty / NAC have always been completely beholden to the Amartya Sen school.

All schools aim at the same goal - how to achieve economic development (ie growth) with minimal inequities between sections of society. However, their prescriptions in order to achieve this are very different.

In the economic context - you can substitute 'Bhagwati school' for 'right' and 'Amartya Sen school' for left...but to suggest that the INC and Modi school of economics is the same is laughable. The only reason folks at FirstPost, Aroon Purie of India Today, NitiCentral and Centerright.in are all backing Modi is basically because of his economic agenda. Everything else is jam on top. Please try and understand this.

I find your equating of the INC and BJP in social ideology equally ridiculous but lets leave that aside for another time - until you have the time to digest this concept.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 08 Jan 2013 23:30

SwamyG wrote:If BJP and NaMo, part ways for xyz reasons, and NaMo decides to create a new party or say join INC;

while I agree that western labels do not apply to Indian parties or political philosophies (in some ways, it is the congress who wants to preserve current order and hence conservative not liberal)

to make it simple, you are making it simplistic. NM can part ways with BJP, but to join INC is laughable.

That is like Stalin joining ADMK.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 08 Jan 2013 23:56

NM needs the Sangh superstructure. So him leaving BJP or succeeding after leaving BJP is not realistic. He has to manipulate/bulldoze his way through. I hope we see some movement in the next few months.