LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 18 Dec 2013 22:44

Europeans are no friend of ours so basically we are pretty much neck deep in water regarding our choices of engine till we come up with our own.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 18 Dec 2013 23:05

Well India has a lot of choices... For starters it can give a Dossier..

Jokes apart, that chance of that happening are slim with India-US relations in the upswing (read it as primarily India buying so much from US). And if anything the logic of "this will shift the strategic balance in the region" can be used to sell more weapons on to the other side.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Dec 2013 23:11

Pratyush wrote:Sorry to be a downer on this thread, but what happnes to the mk 2 if the next us admin decides to sanction the ge 414, claiming that it will damage the strategic balance of the region.

Can the EJ engine be integrated in the air frame in 2016 or 18. In time for it to enter service

Well, that same president is not going to stop with a mere engine, will s/he?

S/he will stop support for the P-8I, C-130J and the C-17. And cancel H-1 visas.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 18 Dec 2013 23:47

^^^ Yes the situation has changed a lot since the sanctions on the FBW systems for nuke tests and there is lot more at the alter today.

For US case also it would not make any sense to hurt India for nothing - US has come around to accept India as a benign power and if the trend continues the relationship or the "hug" which ever you want to call it will get better over time. Especially US hurting itself by hurting a good customer does not make sense.

For India also getting the best tech means it has to deal with US now and into the future (please do not throw stones if you debate best-tech-US - used it loosely) and US is the sole Super power and its influence and reach are considerable. As long as the wind is blowing, India has to work on how to use it to its advantage.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Dec 2013 00:48

The "US" of yester years was - from an Indian PoV - very monolithic - where a US President could make a decision and get it to stick. Give and take some.

Today his own Pacific commander would oppose him, not to talk of the CEO of Boeing, LM and perhaps a ton of other companies and politicians.

The game has changed substantially. However, granted it does not mean that all is well.

At this point in time I would not worry about any US sanctions. In fact I do not *think* (IMHO) they will do anything that will jeopardize any Indian projects that they have already signed in on.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Dec 2013 08:05

One more article on LCA from Tarmak ...

Pearls & Heroes of Tejas | Meet the all-women design team & shop floor rock stars of HAL | 'No dull moment working for India's pet fighter project'

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Dec 2013 08:22

Pratyush wrote:Sorry to be a downer on this thread, but what happnes to the mk 2 if the next us admin decides to sanction the ge 414, claiming that it will damage the strategic balance of the region.

Can the EJ engine be integrated in the air frame in 2016 or 18. In time for it to enter service

we can integrate it, but it will take 2-3 years . but wish we had chosen EJ to begin with. official reason was cost, but i wouldnt be surprised if khan was chosen because UPA/mms pushed for it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Dec 2013 08:28

putnanja wrote:One more article on LCA from Tarmak ...

Pearls & Heroes of Tejas | Meet the all-women design team & shop floor rock stars of HAL | 'No dull moment working for India's pet fighter project'

tarmak is really doing a great job giving a name and a face to all these people who have done so much. kudos sir.

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 19 Dec 2013 08:28

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/12/te ... in-15.html

Bangalore: The Tejas fighter will have to cross 6 milestones in the next 15 months before the aircraft is given the final operational clearance (FOC). Tomorrow's (December 20) initial operational clearance (IOC) event, ahead of the expected induction of the first series production aircraft into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2013, would pave way for the IAF pilots to undertake independent flight evaluation of Tejas.
Dr K Tamil Mani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), DRDO and Chief Executive Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, told Express that the integration of new missiles identified by the IAF will top the agenda in the FOC phase. “The aerodynamics, structures and the integration of the missiles with the radar are important events for Tejas now. We need to evolve the algorithm,” Tamil Mani said. The beyond visual range (BVR) missiles from Israel – Derby and Python -- with a range of 70 km and each weighing 150 kg, have been identified for Tejas.
The Russian-made 23 mm GSH gun is the next in line to be integrated on the aircraft. Capable of firing at 3600 to 4000 rpm, the integration of this gun is seen as a challenge considering the vibrations involved during action. “Lots of surrounding LRUs need to be certified again for higher level of vibration. Ground firing or butt firing needs to be done initially before getting the gun onboard Tejas. The projectile speed of the gun is around 750 meter per second,” he said.
Tejas will also have an air-to-air refuelling probe (Cobham, UK) in the FOC configuration. “We have started the integration work. Similar work was done on Jaguar and AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) platform. We have the expertise now,” he said. The Tejas will also increase the angle of attack (AoA) from 22 to 24 degrees enabling the pilot to go for care-free manouvering. (i thought, it was already achieved and confirmed during aero-india 2013)
The braking system of Tejas will also need to be improved. “The heat capacity needs to be increased. Else we will have to put a better cooling mechanism for the brakes, similar to the fans in the MiGs,” Tamil Mani said.
The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a re-look. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Dec 2013 08:36

akshat.kashyap wrote:The nose cone radome of Tejas is another part that is expected to get a re-look. “Now the radome is made of composite materials and we will change it to quartz. Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.

Do the other fighters use Quartz already?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Dec 2013 09:28

Brando wrote:Looks like a VERY small facility if compared to most modern fighter factories in the West or in China, almost a workshop. To produce any decent numbers they would need a facility at least 5 times this size. Looks like HAL is going more for the bespoke job production than thinking of a long term batch production model.

Nikita Khrushchev once famously said that Soviet factories were "turning out missiles like sausages". Without firm commitments from the IAF and the guarantee of government support, the LCA won't be turning out like "sausages" anytime soon.

Have you seen the Saab Gripen assembly line? It's relatively small facility too..You're comparing this line to what you've perhaps seen of F-16, F-22, F-35 assembly lines, where the capacity is large because the throughput is nearly 2-3 per month..when the IAF orders a larger number, the investment in bigger facilities, more equipment will make sense.

Eventually this facility should grow significantly larger to be able to produce 16-20 fighters per year.

Saab Gripen assembly line

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Dec 2013 10:46

Tejas: A Rs 50,000 crore bird for India

NEW DELHI: When the Tejas light combat aircraft tears into the sky over Bangalore on Friday, its sonic boom will finally herald a major milestone in the long, tortuous developmental saga of the homegrown supersonic fighter.

Having clocked almost 2,420 flight tests since its prototype first flew in January 2011, the lightweight multirole Tejas fighter will finally zoom past the initial operational clearance (IOC) mark on Friday. For long wary of the fighter being prematurely thrust down its throat, even the IAF will clap this time.

"This Tejas Mark-I is much better than a MiG-21 'Bison' on several counts, including weapon-carrying capability and range. But the fighter's full capabilities will emerge only in the Tejas Mark-II version, with a more powerful engine, radar and weapons, which is slated to be ready by December 2018," said a top IAF officer.

But that is in the future. Friday will mark the actual IOC - which basically signifies the fighter is fully airworthy in different conditions, from extremely low temperatures of high-altitude areas to the searing heat of deserts - of the Tejas Mark-I. It will not be the specious one that the combine of Defence Research and Development Organization ( DRDO), Aeronautical Development Agency ( ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd ( HAL) passed off as IOC-I in January 2011.

The Tejas Mark-I fighter, however, will be ready to go to battle only in 2015 once it gets the final operational clearance (FOC), after integration of all weapons and other systems to ensure it can fi re 23mm guns, rockets and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well as undergo air-to-air refuelling. As of now, the Tejas can let loose only close-range R-73 air-to-air missiles and air-to-ground laser and unguided bombs.

It's a no-brainer that India needs to have its own indigenous fighter in an era where the supremacy of airpower in shaping modern-day battles is unquestioned, and foreign imports can be choked in times of emergencies.

But the way the LCA project has meandered over the years, since it was first approved in August 1983 at a paltry cost of Rs 560 crore to replace the ageing MiG-21s, has tested everyone's patience. So much so that TOI in April 2003, just before then PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee named it "Tejas", had suggested it be christened "Jet-Ayu" - 'Ayu' being the Hindi word for age, and 'Jatayu', the bird king who fought Ravana in vain to prevent him from abducting Sita.

Down to just 34 fighter squadrons, IAF is of course still flying the obsolete MiG-21s. Due to the huge delay in the LCA project, it still has around 250 MiG-21s in its combat fleet, having further staggered their already long-delayed retirement by at least another five years. Not only has the LCA been in the making for 30 years, with deadlines being missed time and again, its overall developmental cost has also zoomed up to Rs 17,269 crore. This includes the Kaveri aero engine, sanctioned in 1989 at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore, which flopped miserably.

Consequently, while the first lot of Tejas will be powered by the American GE-404 engines, the Mark-II ones will have the more powerful GE F-414 engines. Over and above the developmental cost, each Tejas will cost around Rs 210-250 crore. So, the induction of 160 Tejas - 120 for IAF, 40 for Navy - will cost another Rs 35,000 crore.

However, defence scientists pooh-pooh all this talk of high costs.

"A fourth-generation-plus fighter, Tejas will still be among the cheapest fighters in its class in the world. It's not easy to develop a digital fly-by-wire supersonic fighter from scratch, especially when India faced international sanctions for several years after the Pokhran-II nuclear tests," said a scientist.

Though late in coming, the Tejas is certainly critical for the IAF to meet its lightweight fighter requirements. While the heavyweight fighter category is taken care of by the Sukhoi-30MKIs, the medium range is to be met by the proposed almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multirole combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 Rafale fighters.

"The MMRCA and Tejas squadrons are very critical for us to maintain our deterrence capability. Otherwise, our force levels will go down rapidly," says IAF chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Dec 2013 11:29

putnanja wrote:One more article on LCA from Tarmak ...

Pearls & Heroes of Tejas | Meet the all-women design team & shop floor rock stars of HAL | 'No dull moment working for India's pet fighter project'

could you please post the article in full? unable to open blogs at work..

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 19 Dec 2013 12:00

Kartik wrote:
putnanja wrote:One more article on LCA from Tarmak ...

Pearls & Heroes of Tejas | Meet the all-women design team & shop floor rock stars of HAL | 'No dull moment working for India's pet fighter project'
could you please post the article in full? unable to open blogs at work..

Here you go sir....

Bangalore: “My father is 80 years old and he reads all the newspapers and updates me about the happenings around aviation. I leave home at 6 am every day and return by around 7 pm. Close to over two decades, life has been a great challenge dealing with some complex issues in aeronautics. Finding solutions and getting them accepted is some task in our profession. But, it gives a great sense of satisfaction,” says S K Chandrka, DGM (Electrical and Avionics), Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC), a prominent unit of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). “There have been some sleepless nights. I remember once a wire got cut inside the aircraft and I was really restless till we found the reason,” says Chandrika, with over 26 years of experience.
City Express caught up with some of the women designers from ARDC, working with India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas programme, to capture their mood ahead of the initial operational clearance (IOC) event scheduled to be held in the city on December 20. Despite being their first interaction with media in their career, these women showed little hesitation in replying to the queries. K Sharadha, AGM, Flight Test Centre who has close to 30 years of experience at HAL, said that the family support played a crucial role during all these years of hard work and toil, in realising the national dream called Tejas. “I was involved with the programme from 1995 and was part of the team that set up the infrastructure, telemetry ground stations and configuration of flight test instrumentation. My family was aware of the critical nature of my job and they stood rock solid behind me,” says Sharadha a native of Tamil Nadu.
Hailing from Mangalore, Sumana Prakash, is a Chief Manger (Design) with two decades of expertise in aeronautics. She was part of the Tejas programme right from the first day of her joining HAL. The project just completed the drawing stages and the prototype was getting ready. “It is really a matter of pride being associated with Tejas and I am part of the electrical design team. I have gone for outstation trials to Leh and life throws up many challenges. I am also part of some of the future programmes of HAL. Being a woman, I need to make adjustments to my family life. Sometimes my children get upset with me for being on the phone even while at home, clarifying some test points with my colleagues,” says Sumana.
Leaving a lucrative job with ABB, Rashmi Joshi, Manager (Electrical Design), joined HAL in 2001 and has been part of the Tejas project for the last 12 years. She has travelled to France on work and says that the job satisfaction is tremendous. “Nothing can match the thrill of taking challenges head on. Tejas wiring is really extreme with around 12,000 points. Life has become interesting with so many modifications being done to Tejas,” says Rashmi, hailing from Nagpur. Her colleague S Meena, Manager (Electrical Design) had to stay away from family for close to 10 months, while she was sent on a deputation to Russia. “I had to take my son and mother along with me. Life was different in Russia and I learnt Russian as well. The varied experiences have boosted my self confidence,” says Rashmi, hailing from Thirvananthapuram.
When asked about their views on being in a male-dominated domain and the difficulties they are facing in executing, everyone was all praise for their male colleagues. “We have come this far with their support as well. The team I handle have only two women and the rest are all men. I found no problems. Just that, I switch off my family matters completely when I am at work. Aircraft designers need to be emotionless when they deal with intense programmes such as Tejas,” says Veena B, DGM (Prototype Assembly), who hails from Mysore.
Some of the designers came to the Tejas programme with rich experience of HAL's other projects like the Dhruv. Alakananda Suri, Manager (Iron Bird) from Lucknow joined HAL in 2000 and was put to Tejas project in 2011. As a Project Manager with HAL, she worked on a transfer of technology from Sagem (France). “It is a highly satisfying job and we were under tremendous pressure ahead of the IOC-2. The team work has been outstanding,” she sad. The women brigade felt that it is because of the test facilities like the Iron Bird and the rigourous testing philosophy adopted, Tejas had thankfully not seen a single accident so far, unlike almost all the similar programs running worldwide.
Emphasising on absolute team spirit, Kalaivani D, a Deputy Manager (Electrical and Avionics) felt that in the design stream each and everyone work as one, shedding their grades and ranks. “We are so focussed towards achieving one milestone after another. It is a dream come true for all of us to see that Tejas is finally getting into an induction stage,” says Kalaivani, who hails from Namakkal. “We are the real pearls of HAL,” she adds, and the entire group bursts out laughing.
THE SHOP FLOOR SOULS: While the women completed their media mission and got back to their world of design, there was another group waiting in the wings for an interaction at the Prototype Flight Hangar. They were the men from the shop-floor, the real unsung heroes of Tejas project. No cameras have ever chased them. They come to work at times as early as 3 am to keep Tejas ready for the pilots to undertake the flight trials.
Avinash Kumar (34) is a Manager at the flight hangar who is with Tejas for past 11 years. “I am from Delhi and I've always wanted to be a part of the aviation industry. It is a great thrill to prepare Tejas for the flight, handling the snags and finally positioning the aircraft on the tarmac. My team consists of 50 people and we manage three aircraft. Never was there any dull moment for me since I joined the Tejas team,” says Avinash. Echoing his views was S K Tripathi (52), senior master technician, who joined HAL in 2003 with a 20 years of experience working with the Indian Air Force. “My memorable moment was during the first flight of PV-5. It is a wonderful machine. Every time the aircraft takes off, it give immense happiness. I have accompanied Tejas to Goa, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer and Leh. It feels like taking our children for some entrance test,” says Tripathi, who comes from Lucknow.
Being a rescue driver hailing from Tumkur, Balasubramaniam (35), plays a key role in ground support vehicle activities. He says for the last 10 years, he couldn't have asked for more, with the kind of exposure he got in dealing with different situations. “Even my relatives, family and friends are really happy that I am part of India's prestigious project,” says Balasubramaniam. According to K Vijayan (54), hailing from Kerala, the Tejas team overcame many hurdles by coordination with the designers. “We undertook lot of corrective measures and though we are from shop floor, some of our suggestions are also taken into consideration,” says Vijayan, an ex-IAF man, with 15 years of experience in HAL.
Similarly, Mohd Imtiaz (40), a technician, tells that plugging the snags is something he always enjoyed, while Shivkumar B H (42), a Senior Manager (Quality Assurance), says that to update new technology was a Herculan task. “We had to train the people so that they could handle the aircraft at ground level, independently,” he says. Veeraiah (40), a Manager (Quality Assurance), emphasised how his team stuck to the safety features of the aircraft. “If something goes wrong, everyone will point fingers at us as we are the clearing wing. We will have to be available when pilots does the debriefing sessions,” he says.
While these backroom boys were readying themselves to get a Tejas PV-3 ready for the flight, P G Jayan, DGM, Integration & Project Manager (LCA Mk-1), joined the discussion with his final words. “These are the true heroes of Tejas programme. The souls on the shop floor make things happen. There are days when they have worked for 16 hours. Having a great team is the biggest award you can get,” says Jayan, who have logged 28 years in HAL.
As we wound up, the pilot of Tejas PV-3 was throttling up for another sky party.

srin · Post by **srin** » 19 Dec 2013 12:29

Interesting ... trip to Russia ? What did we incorporate that is Russian in the Tejas design ?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Dec 2013 13:15

This retard Rajat Pandit of TOIlet can never write 3 lines without displaying his monkey mind.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Dec 2013 13:22

Is the flap near engine nozzle an air-brake ? What's it's use during flight ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Dec 2013 13:28

SRIN,there is a superb feature in VAYU by Pushpinder Singh I think on "60 years of Indo-Russian aviation collaboration".Without the Russian/Soviet generous contribution to India of aircraft and tech from MIG-21 days upto the SU-30MKI and FGFA in development,more than a thousand Russian origin aircraft built/assembled,we would have precious little indigenous capability.While the Tejas draws more upon western and indigenous tech for most its design,some of the weaponry used is Russian,even though the Israeli Derby and Python have been selected because of the Israeli radar making it easier to integrate.

From the media report,there is still a lot of work to be done.The bit about the gun trials being the most difficult is exactly what our cosmonaut hero Rakesh Sharma told us in the BR met a decade ago when he was involved in the programme.But does this them mean that MK-1 will be flying without any gun?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 19 Dec 2013 13:47

^^^^ It is air-break. Probably its slowing down. I dont think LCA uses air-breaks for any flight control operations, though its possible in theory.

ADA site uploded Final Tejas Brochure:

https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC%20con ... 0Final.pdf

A good reference to all spec all at one place.

I do think, They should seriously hire some Art agency to do this stuff, it could be much better.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 19 Dec 2013 14:28

The brochure has a beautiful graphic of the weapon store separation over time (Pg 11). But they never say anything substantial about the speed of the aircraft.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 19 Dec 2013 14:41

akshat.kashyap wrote: Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.

Thats shockingly terrible...

With a radar larger than mig-29's one, it should really be getting 110km range.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Dec 2013 14:52

Indigenous fighter aircraft LCA -Tejas poised for IOC-II

"We have plans to initially produce eight aircraft per year. Further plans are afoot to enhance the production rate to 16 aircraft per year in consultation with IAF and MOD (Ministry of Defence)", HAL chairman RK Tyagi said.

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/india/indigeno ... ef_article

If we still do not have MMRCA by the time Mk II is ready .. cancel MMRCA and double production to 32 per year.

srin · Post by **srin** » 19 Dec 2013 15:07

Philip wrote:SRIN,there is a superb feature in VAYU by Pushpinder Singh I think on "60 years of Indo-Russian aviation collaboration".Without the Russian/Soviet generous contribution to India of aircraft and tech from MIG-21 days upto the SU-30MKI and FGFA in development,more than a thousand Russian origin aircraft built/assembled,we would have precious little indigenous capability.While the Tejas draws more upon western and indigenous tech for most its design,some of the weaponry used is Russian,even though the Israeli Derby and Python have been selected because of the Israeli radar making it easier to integrate.

From the media report,there is still a lot of work to be done.The bit about the gun trials being the most difficult is exactly what our cosmonaut hero Rakesh Sharma told us in the BR met a decade ago when he was involved in the programme.But does this them mean that MK-1 will be flying without any gun?

Phillip-saar, that may be the case in general, but speculation based on partial public information is always more fun. Which aspect of LCA is being integrated/assisted by who is always interesting.

Indian electrical engineers/scientists working on LCA going to Russia could mean R-73 integration. Or is it for R-77 ?

Similar about France - which part is from France ? HMS ?

srin · Post by **srin** » 19 Dec 2013 15:09

nileshjr wrote:^^^^ It is air-break. Probably its slowing down. I dont think LCA uses air-breaks for any flight control operations, though its possible in theory.

ADA site uploded Final Tejas Brochure:

https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC%20con ... 0Final.pdf

A good reference to all spec all at one place.

I do think, They should seriously hire some Art agency to do this stuff, it could be much better.

And should have done a spell-check once - "engin relight" really ?

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 Dec 2013 16:36

nileshjr wrote:https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC%20con ... 0Final.pdf.

Good . From what is given in the brochure, working backwards, I get approx 3000Kg as internal fuel and on the clean take off weight of 9800kg , I get a fuel fraction of 0.31 and that should kick some serious Musharraf in terms of range and persistence. I would bet a better range than the M2K given the Tejas has an engine with a better specific fuel consumption. The IAF would be pretty pleased with that.

And with the IN20 engine (20lbf thrust ~ 89KN) gives it a T:W ratio of 0.9 at CTOW. Pretty sweet, though I suspect the IAF being true flyboys would prefer a Mig29K kind of T:W of 1.1

, which probably will come in the MkII.

Guess what Brazil too, which signed up for Gripen NG is going to get it hands on it by around 2018 , so despite all the R&D (Rhona & Dhona) by our DDM, the MKII would have similar timelines with the Gripen NG and will match it spec for spec mostly (give or take a few in favor of either in different parameters) .. Pretty sweet overall.

Folks, another request. Can we please stop the verbal vomit from the likes of Rajat Pandit from being posted here.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Dec 2013 17:03

nileshjr wrote: ADA site uploded Final Tejas Brochure:

https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC%20con ... 0Final.pdf

LCA pic at Leh is a fabulous pic.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 19 Dec 2013 17:22

According to brochure, In achievements

Envelope expansion upto 24 deg AOA completed.
Wake penetration

This is great news

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 19 Dec 2013 18:39

A small something for all the IT-VT types like moa and project managers, mostly who comment that better project management can fix this LCA issue, From the broachure ....

Product Lifecycle Management (PLM)
• Implementation for all projects
• Complete product data management across work centers
• Pipelines and electrical looms data management
• Synchronization of data, query workflows from design
through manufacturing
• Digital manufacturing and ERP interface
• Online design query management for faster disposition
• Real time status dash boards for effective tracking

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 19 Dec 2013 18:46

vina wrote:
nileshjr wrote:https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC%20con ... 0Final.pdf.
Good . From what is given in the brochure, working backwards, I get approx 3000Kg as internal fuel and on the clean take off weight of 9800kg

As per an old ADA brochure from an earlier Aero India, Mk1 fuel was around 2,560kg.

Apparently, Mk.2 should be about 3,150 kg.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2013 18:50

venkat_r wrote:A small something for all the IT-VT types like moa and project managers, mostly who comment that better project management can fix this LCA issue, From the broachure ....

Product Lifecycle Management (PLM)
• Implementation for all projects
• Complete product data management across work centers
• Pipelines and electrical looms data management
• Synchronization of data, query workflows from design
through manufacturing
• Digital manufacturing and ERP interface
• Online design query management for faster disposition
• Real time status dash boards for effective tracking

AMCA will enjoy a much more smoother R&D process

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Dec 2013 19:07

Nick_S wrote:Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.

----
Thats shockingly terrible...

With a radar larger than mig-29's one, it should really be getting 110km range.

Its helps to look into the details before getting all upset and posting off the cuff.

Indian standard RCS for calibration is 2 sq mtrs. The MiG-29 radar range is detailed for a standard RCS of 5 Sq Mtr.
With the quartz radome (which means less loss in radome itself) the 80+ km for 2 sq mtrs translates to 100+ km for the LCA against a target of 5 Sq Mtrs, which is a fairly decent range for such a small fighter with a low RCS itself and in line with what the radar is designed for.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Dec 2013 19:18

srin wrote:Phillip-saar, that may be the case in general, but speculation based on partial public information is always more fun. Which aspect of LCA is being integrated/assisted by who is always interesting.

Indian electrical engineers/scientists working on LCA going to Russia could mean R-73 integration. Or is it for R-77 ?

Similar about France - which part is from France ? HMS ?

The going to Russia part could merely be going for other programs before the LCA. As mentioned in the report, its detailing each persons experience and many of these people came from other HAL programs.

Russia itself has contributed little to the LCA itself as we never approached them to be a LCA partner - Phillips usual attempt to give credit to Russia for anything and everything apart. As matter of fact, the LCA was created because TOT/license assembly of Russian/Western fighters was not sufficient. Talk of the irony.

R-73 integration was done by India without help from the manufacturers. They asked for too much money.

Russian assistance for the LCA has been primarily for the Kaveri, which has been delinked from the LCA program though.

titash · Post by **titash** » 19 Dec 2013 20:00

Karan M wrote:
Nick_S wrote:Today we are getting a radar range of 45-50 km and we need to improve the same to 80-plus km with the new material,” the official said.

----
Thats shockingly terrible...

With a radar larger than mig-29's one, it should really be getting 110km range.
Its helps to look into the details before getting all upset and posting off the cuff.

Indian standard RCS for calibration is 2 sq mtrs. The MiG-29 radar range is detailed for a standard RCS of 5 Sq Mtr.
With the quartz radome (which means less loss in radome itself) the 80+ km for 2 sq mtrs translates to 100+ km for the LCA against a target of 5 Sq Mtrs, which is a fairly decent range for such a small fighter with a low RCS itself and in line with what the radar is designed for.

+1 to Karan M's post. The devil is in the details.

The more relevant question for critiques is "what's the MiG-21 Bison's radar range against 2 sq. m. radar targets"? and "does the LCA exceed that MiG-21 Bison's performance"?

titash · Post by **titash** » 19 Dec 2013 20:02

Karan M wrote:
srin wrote:Phillip-saar, that may be the case in general, but speculation based on partial public information is always more fun. Which aspect of LCA is being integrated/assisted by who is always interesting.

Indian electrical engineers/scientists working on LCA going to Russia could mean R-73 integration. Or is it for R-77 ?

Similar about France - which part is from France ? HMS ?
The going to Russia part could merely be going for other programs before the LCA. As mentioned in the report, its detailing each persons experience and many of these people came from other HAL programs.

Russia itself has contributed little to the LCA itself as we never approached them to be a LCA partner - Phillips usual attempt to give credit to Russia for anything and everything apart. As matter of fact, the LCA was created because TOT/license assembly of Russian/Western fighters was not sufficient. Talk of the irony.

R-73 integration was done by India without help from the manufacturers. They asked for too much money.

Russian assistance for the LCA has been primarily for the Kaveri, which has been delinked from the LCA program though.

One thing I never quite understood was why we didn't integrate the R-77 if we were able to integrate the R-73 with the hybrid MMR? Soviet weapons of the same generation should??? have the same electronic interfaces?

(talking with my metallurgy hat on

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Dec 2013 20:16

Probably cause Vympel has only cooperated for the R-73 integration and does not want the Isarelis to know about the R-77 seeker

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 19 Dec 2013 20:23

Karan M wrote: Indian standard RCS for calibration is 2 sq mtrs.

My understanding was that it was meant to be 120km range vs 2sq mtrs RCS aerial target.

From B.Harry MMR design specs:

Antenna diameter 650 mm
Antenna gain 33 dB
TWT Power Output 6.5 kW (increaseable to 10 kW, 10% duty cycle)
Range 120 km against 2 sq.m RCS aerial target, >150 km for surface targets against sea clutter
All Up Weight (AUW) 130 kg
To keep the radar up to evolving standards, a new Advanced Signal and Data Processing Unit based upon Power-PC chips, has been developed to replace the older unit.

http://www.acig.org/exclusives/LCA/ACIG ... Tejas.html

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Dec 2013 21:12

The article seems to suggest that the range limit is due to the radome, and implicitly not with the radar.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Dec 2013 21:15

HAL's press release on Tejas

India’s Frontline Fighter Aircraft (LCA -Tejas) Poised for IOC-II

Bangalore, December 19, 2013: India’s indigenously designed and developed frontline fighter aircraft, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is poised to achieve an important milestone on December 20, 2013 by achieving the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC II) and get ready for induction into IAF squadrons. The aircraft is manufactured by the defence major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). “The production facilities have been set up at HAL and the aircraft delivery is expected to commence from 2014. We have plans to initially produce eight aircraft per year. Further plans are afoot to enhance the production rate to 16 aircraft per year in consultation with IAF and MOD. HAL is fully geared up to meet the challenging production schedule and hopes to fulfil the requirements of customers in a time bound manner”, says Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL.

Tejas is a single engine, light weight, highly agile, multi-role supersonic fighter. It has quadruplex digital fly-by-wire Flight Control System (FCS) with associated advanced flight control laws. Extensive use of advanced composites in the airframe gives a high strength to weight ratio, long fatigue life and low radar signatures.

HAL carried-out around 500 sorties of LCA in the year 2013 which is the highest for any particular year right from the start of the programme. The previous highest was 280 sorties in the year 2009. Outstation flight trials were carried out at Leh, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttaralai Gwalior, Pathankot and Goa for cold weather, armament and weapon deliveries, multimode radar (MMR), radar warning receiver (RWR), hot weather and missile firing flight trials this year itself. Two aircraft have flown three sorties each on the same day during trials at Jamnagar in October –November 2013, demonstrating fast turnaround time capability.

After the achievement of IOC II, HAL will go ahead with the Series Production of LCA Tejas. The Company has already established the structural assembly hangar and the assembly jigs have been calibrated with state of the Laser Trackers to an accuracy of 80 microns (0.08 mm) to meet stringent quality standards. A state of the art CNC drilling machine has been installed to ensure repeatability and reduce the cycle time.

LCA has also successfully demonstrated weapon delivery capability during weapon trials at Jamnagar & Jaisalmer. LCA participated during IRON FIST 2013 and proved its mettle along with other platforms of IAF.

Production Line:

HAL has been working towards building up infrastructure for production. The LCA production group engaged in the production of Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft during the last five years functioned as an extended arm of the design and development team with large scale modifications introduced into these LSP aircraft in terms of hardware, system improvements and software in a progressive manner as per concurrent development and production concept.

With most of the aircraft system performance reaching desired levels, HAL production group would concentrate on stabilizing the production line. All hardware improvements and software modifications as a result of trials on LSP series aircraft are now being incorporated into series production aircraft.

The production line at HAL has been moved to new premises with a built up area of around 28,000 Sq m of Hangars, Engineering and Administrative blocks. Upgrade and augmentation of production tooling is underway to enhance the rate of production and to expedite delivery of aircraft for two IAF squadrons in the next four to five years

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Dec 2013 21:23

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/sli ... 628139.cms

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Dec 2013 23:23

Nick_S wrote:My understanding was that it was meant to be 120km range vs 2sq mtrs RCS aerial target.

From B.Harry MMR design specs:

Antenna diameter 650 mm
Antenna gain 33 dB
TWT Power Output 6.5 kW (increaseable to 10 kW, 10% duty cycle)
Range 120 km against 2 sq.m RCS aerial target, >150 km for surface targets against sea clutter
All Up Weight (AUW) 130 kg
To keep the radar up to evolving standards, a new Advanced Signal and Data Processing Unit based upon Power-PC chips, has been developed to replace the older unit.

http://www.acig.org/exclusives/LCA/ACIG ... Tejas.html

That data is from quite some time back, and might have mixed up the reference targets (official PR literature can be mistaken from one version to the next) and it would be very surprising if the above range is achieved against 2 Sq Mtr targets.

Note that while news report says > 80km, 120 km is of an order of magnitude in terms of difference. Lets work this through and you'll see where I am coming from.

120 km against 2 sq mtr targets would 150 km against 5 sq mtr.

For comparison, take the Zhuk ME, its advertised as (>)120 km as well.
http://www.mycity-military.com/thumbs2/ ... 0radar.jpg
- Same dia
- Average Power O/P 1.5 KW (versus LCA MMR 650W)
- Gain 32.5 db (almost the same)

If the above is for 120km against 2 Sq Mtr as well, it would translate to 150 km against 5 sq Mtrs, which tells you that at the same dia, nearly the same gain, twice the average power, it achieves the same performance as LCA MMR. Doesn't compute, correct? In actuality, Phaza claims the range for 5sq Mtr
http://imageshack.us/f/151/zhukmegb2.jpg/

Of course we take all these ranges with a grain of salt. The real ranges would be classified and public ones are usually underestimates.

Even so, point is a range of 100 odd km, against 5 Sq Mtr targets, for the current MMR is quite reasonable and in line with what IAF would have asked for. The sum total of RCS+EW/Radar range, would determine at what range LCA is detected. On account of efforts towards RCS reduction/small size, the LCA is still not worse off.

These are standard ranges for a radar of this class.
KLJ-7 for JF-17 is advertised as ~105km against 5 sq mtr targets. And the JF-17, with its conventional metal design is likely to have a larger size as well.

The RC-400/RDY-3 is also mentioned (as I recall) with a similar range.