Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2013 19:09

negi wrote:Afaik Karna was refused by Drona as former was not a royal at that point he was not even an expert archer .

He studied under drona along with Pandavas and kauravas.

He thought he had a equal right to learn Astras without any hardworking or suitability. He rebelled when drona declined.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2013 19:32

yama r! i would say that is imagination at best.. more like a sikular spin to reach out to mata sita... in an imaginary fondle shondle game. from the narration i have heard as kid, it was her thigh.

btw, impossible to peck at breasts, when it can be easily dodged by hands.. and would have woken up rama sleeping on her lap. it would be easy to cover.. and sounds like a next twist would come in terms of using a straw!?

i could not buy that.. please tell me a better story.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2013 06:47

SaiK wrote:yama r! i would say that is imagination at best.. more like a sikular spin to reach out to mata sita... in an imaginary fondle shondle game. from the narration i have heard as kid, it was her thigh.

btw, impossible to peck at breasts, when it can be easily dodged by hands.. and would have woken up rama sleeping on her lap. it would be easy to cover.. and sounds like a next twist would come in terms of using a straw!?

i could not buy that.. please tell me a better story.

I am not telling any story. You can go to Valmiki Ramayana dot net and read the story for yourself. It comes in SundaraKanda.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2013 06:49

Friends,

This fortnight is Mahalaya paksha. Time to remember your ancestors and leave Tarpana. Donate some money to Annadana if possible.. With $15 you can feed a child for 1 yr, $150 will feed 10 kids for whole year.

Mahalaya Amavasya is the most important day of Mahalaya Paksha, the fortnight in which hindus offer Shraddh ancestors. Mahalaya Amavasya is the New moon day in Dark fortnight of hindu lunar month of Bhadrapada. This falls on Ashwin month as per North Indian Hindu calendar. In 2013, Mahalaya Amavasya is on Friday, 4th October.

On Mahalaya Amavasya day, Tarpana and Pinda daan are performed to the ancestors. People belive that, ancestors, visit the earth on this day. If someone unable to perform shradh on death anniversary or on respective tithi on mahalaya paksha, Their Shardh can be performed on Mahalaya Amavasya Day.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 24 Sep 2013 08:55

Atri wrote:As compared to ram-krishna, there are hardly any temples for varaaha, narasimha and vamana OR even parshurama (a few on western coast of India).

You may be aware that there are quite a few famous temples in TN for Varaha (Thiruvedandhai, Thiruvalandhai, Sri Mushnam etc.) and Narasimha (Singaperumal Koil, Poovarasan kuppam, Parikkal, Sholingar, Old Seevaram etc.) Every Vishnu/Perumal temple in TN usually has a Sannidhi for Narasimha. Similarly for Vamana - Thirukovilur, Ulagalandha perumal (Kanchi)

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 24 Sep 2013 09:22

RamaY garu, where to donate for annadana for the kids?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Sep 2013 10:14

http://www.youtube.com/embed/0Rick8wuDh ... _z5nEB653y

the fifth video on the list is "damodara leela" of Sri Krishna. it's in telugu. Ch. K'Rao garu has done a wonderful job in that discourse. especially, that part.
I was smiling deliriously at some parts imagining the scenes. unconsciously the eyes catch tears. of happiness. and joy.
only Krishna leela has this kind of effect. no others.

I wish we had somebody who could do a similar wonderful discourse in Hindi and other languages. Damodara Leela is undoubtedly a gem even in the gem that is Bhagavatham.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 24 Sep 2013 15:35

matrimc wrote:RamaY garu, where to donate for annadana for the kids?

ISKCON Annamrita

http://annamrita.org/make-a-donation/

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 24 Sep 2013 19:44

I see a greater need of pravachanams in the style of Koteswara Rao garu in T.Nadu. Lot of lies and twisting of facts is done there. But again, I am also afraid that lot of harm could come to them just because of that.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Sep 2013 20:21

Please look for etv bhagavatham serial on YouTube. Quite good and uploaded by etv itself.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Sep 2013 20:47

Sridhar K wrote:
Atri wrote:As compared to ram-krishna, there are hardly any temples for varaaha, narasimha and vamana OR even parshurama (a few on western coast of India).
You may be aware that there are quite a few famous temples in TN for Varaha (Thiruvedandhai, Thiruvalandhai, Sri Mushnam etc.) and Narasimha (Singaperumal Koil, Poovarasan kuppam, Parikkal, Sholingar, Old Seevaram etc.) Every Vishnu/Perumal temple in TN usually has a Sannidhi for Narasimha. Similarly for Vamana - Thirukovilur, Ulagalandha perumal (Kanchi)

Added to this. Andhra Pradesh has the following temples for Narasimhaswamy: Ahobilam, Mangalgiri, Simhachalam, Yadagiri gutta. There is a old Pallava era Varaha temple in down Tirupati which is the first temple to visit.

The Hampi ruins have temples for Ugra Narsimha.

Story in wiki says that Malik Kafur, the Khilji slave was repulsed by the huge statue of Varaha that he took off farther South.

Atriji, Was listening today to Prahalad charitra from Pothana's Andhra Mahabhagavatam while driving to work. The description of Narasimha matches the artist rendering: broad chested, blood shot eyes, and claws curved like sickles! Only license he took was the peacock feathers instead of the lion's mane!!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Sep 2013 21:04

RamaY wrote:
SaiK wrote:yama r! i would say that is imagination at best.. more like a sikular spin to reach out to mata sita... in an imaginary fondle shondle game. from the narration i have heard as kid, it was her thigh.

btw, impossible to peck at breasts, when it can be easily dodged by hands.. and would have woken up rama sleeping on her lap. it would be easy to cover.. and sounds like a next twist would come in terms of using a straw!?

i could not buy that.. please tell me a better story.
I am not telling any story. You can go to Valmiki Ramayana dot net and read the story for yourself. It comes in SundaraKanda.

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/utf8/sund ... _frame.htm
stanaantare = the space between my breasts;

It is not the breasts.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2013 21:10

OK SaiK garu, Stanaantare it is

So probably the crow was after something that appeared like piece of meat. Perhaps a ruby necklace?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Sep 2013 21:41

moorkh point analysis onlee: i have no data on the speed at which the crow slammed in, the delta time available for sitama to react and protect herself, and the best assumption i can is based on some characterisitcs human beings do (pizzically) to protect themselve on attack is to use the arms to cover themselves.. however there could be exposure spots where the crow could zero in on..

but then, valmiki's spin is something i can't stand up to...meaning me no great poet/writer.. just jimble moorkh

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Sep 2013 21:53

SaiK:

...Thereafter, that crow said "Let your arrow shoot my right eye." Then that blade of Kusa grass shooted the right eye of that crow. By giving away its right eye in that way, the crow saved its life."

Same way Assad giving up the chem weapons is saving his regime!!!!

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 24 Sep 2013 22:00

Pothana's Andhra Mahabhagavatam

ramana garu, is it on pravachanams.com? if not source please?

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 24 Sep 2013 22:28

ramana wrote:Added to this. Andhra Pradesh has the following temples for Narasimhaswamy: Ahobilam, Mangalgiri, Simhachalam, Yadagiri gutta. There is a old Pallava era Varaha temple in down Tirupati which is the first temple to visit.
The Hampi ruins have temples for Ugra Narsimha.
Story in wiki says that Malik Kafur, the Khilji slave was repulsed by the huge statue of Varaha that he took off farther South.

One of the popular Narasimha Swamy temple in Telangana is at Dharmapuri in Karimnagar district. This town has the largest concentration of Vedic brahmins in all of AP (per wiki) and are still very vibrant and devoted practitioners.

There is also Sri Raja Rajeshwar Temple (Shiva Temple) nearby at a place called Vemulawada. Supposedly very old/ancient.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Sep 2013 22:35

Satya_Anveshi, What was Karminagar called before the Nizam renamed it after some ghazi?

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 24 Sep 2013 22:41

Not sure but wiki has this:

Karimnagar was originally called Kannaaram, Kanagallu, Elagandala, by its native people. The district was a major center for Vedic learning and was the heart of the great Satavahana Empire. Later, Nizams changed the name to Karimnagar, derived from the name of Syed Karimullah Shah Saheb Quiladar.

Koti Lingala was (one of the) capitals of Satavahana and is nearby. Of course more popular capitals were Paithan in present day Maharashtra and then Amaravati in AP.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Sep 2013 23:56

I'm not sure how kangrez gov gonna save their assadness. I'd hate any rajya (ram, krishna or kali) to drive at enabling their evil-raaj to hide and make them reappear after seeing weakpoints in the coming future [no kusa grass, but they need thrishul treatment]. /ot

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Sep 2013 00:15

There could have been a Jain ArAmam around that area called Kannaaram. There is a bend in the river (Godavari) a little north-west of Mahadevpur. The river slows down and there is a deep pool in the bend where water pools up into a "maDugu" which is known with the name of "lanja maDugu moola"("Harlot's pool at the bend"). Telugu word "lanja" is used for a woman of easy virtue. My dad, being linguistically inclined, dug into the etymology. Turns out there is a small hill near the bend on Adilabad side which has Jain cave "ArAma" living quarters where Jain missionaries of both sexes were living together. Jains are also known as "lunjitas" (i.e. people who pluck their hair out). Since they were not following extant societal norms of that time, the word "lunjita" has become a pejorative. Guess what? Buddhist monks used to shave their head ("munDita"). Another pejorative for woman of easy virtue in Telugu is "munDa" though it has another older meaning of a widow. Widows were supposed to shave their head and wear only white sarees to symbolize living but dead.

Some of these social practices are still extant but not as widespread as they were during the times of British and the Nizam sarkAr. If we want to stop the spread of desert religions, we better put our own house in order. I am not saying this as a self-flagellation but more in the vein of the dictum that the first step in solving a problem is to recognize that there is a problem. Of course, British and the mercenary Razakars of Mughal descendant Nizam could have cared less in reforming our society.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Sep 2013 03:07

the word lanja or lancha or lanjam in kannada/tamil means bribery.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 25 Sep 2013 05:33

Ramayan-era plants bear witness to vanvas route

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-news ... route.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2013 06:23

Sushupti wrote:Ramayan-era plants bear witness to vanvas route

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-news ... route.html

The picture is from Amar Chitra katha without acknowldegement!!!

Ramayan-era plants bear witness to vanvas route

Wednesday, 25 September 2013 | Kumar Chellappan | Chennai

People who belittle Ramayan as a mythology or a mere epic and Lord Ram as a fictitious character should be ready to give up their skepticism. Two Chennai-based botanists have come out with a three-year-long study which establishes that the Ramayan is a true life story authored by Valmiki, incorporating facts, figures, science and environment of the period.

All 182 plants (including flowers, trees, fruits) mentioned in the Ramayan have been found to be true. M Amrithalingam and P Sudhakar, the two botanists working with the CPR Environmental Education Centre, Chennai, said they could confirm the existence of the flora and fauna mentioned by Valmiki in the Ramayan.

“We tracked the route travelled by Lord Ram, Sita and Lakshman from Ayodhya in the north to south as part of their exile to the forest for 14 years. To our surprise, we could identify all the plant species in the Ramayan mentioned by Valmiki along this route,” Amrithalingam told The Pioneer. As a taxonomist, Sudhakar confirmed the plant variety with their Sanskrit and Latin names.

The duo commenced their journey from Ayodhya and reached Chitrakuta’s tropical and deciduous forest. “Valmiki knew his flora, fauna and the geography. What we found was that the same flora and fauna existed in the same places as written in the epic,” pointed out Nanditha Krishna, director, CPREEC, who supervised the project.

According to Krishna, the Ramayan is geographically very correct. “All sites in their route are still identifiable and has continuing traditions . It is not possible for a person to just write something out of his imagination and fit it into local folklore for greater credibility. Valmiki has not erred anywhere while specifying the plant species, flowers and wild animals,” she said.

Sudhakar pointed out that in the Ramayan, Ram, Sita and Lakshman were warned to be cautious while they entered Dandakaranya forests. “This forest had lions and tigers. Now there are no lions in the area. This is because they were killed by poachers over the centuries. But the rocks in the famous Bhimbetka has prehistoric paintings of lion and tigers together which confirm Valmiki’s observation,” he said.

Amrithalingam and Sudhakar journeyed from Dandakaranya to Panchavati and Kishkinda. “We found that Kishkinda has a dry and moist climate which synchronises with what Valmiki has authored,” said Amrithalingam.

Chitrakuta and Dandakaranya regions mentioned in the epic are spread across the modern day Madhya Pradesh, Odisha and Andhra Pradesh, according to Krishna. Panchavati, from where Sita was abducted by Ravan, is situated on the banks of River Godavari on modern Maharashtra. “Diverse types of animal and bird species of this region have been mentioned by Valmiki. These include hamsa (swan), karandava (coot), kraunca(pond heron), Mayura (peacock) and sarasa (crane). These are all visible in the region even today,” said Krishna.

Lord Ram in his conversation with Sita and Lakshman speaks about the significance of plants and trees which they come across during their journey. “Even today we have Sthala Vriksha (trees associated with each location) and plants which are worshipped. Tulsi, banyan, punnaga are some examples to substantiate the theory that Ramayana is not just a story but a chronicle,' said Krishna.

The research took them to Sri Lanka where too they found the flora and fauna which are all mentioned in the Ramayan. Ravan’s botanical garden was known as Ashoka Vana because of the presence of Ashoka trees. “The evergreen Ashoka Vana could be described as a garden where nature is portrayed in all its glory,” said Amrithalingam.

According to Krishna, Valmiki knew what he was writing about. “Unless he was thorough about the topography, geography and ecology of the region, he could not have provided such sharp and precise observation of the time, place and location,” she said. The findings of Amrithalingam and Sudhakar has been published in the format of a book titled Plant and Animal Diversity in Valmiki's Ramayan.

So this also lays to rest which Lanka is being talked about in the Ramayana!!!!

Its Tamarapani or modern day Sri Lanka.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Sep 2013 06:50

SaiK wrote:the word lanja or lancha or lanjam in kannada/tamil means bribery.

gult lancham == bribery.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Sep 2013 07:12

Sushupti wrote:Ramayan-era plants bear witness to vanvas route

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-news ... route.html

I am glad the research came from modern-day Tamilnadu. Karma is an honorable lady

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 25 Sep 2013 09:30

My apologies if it had been posted.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 25 Sep 2013 16:05

Sugriva also directs his vanara army to different places in all the four directions. If only someone can map the places they were sent to it would be fantastic. If I remember correctly, he mentions Japan as the land where the sun rays first touch the earth, that's the farthest East his army goes(is this true?) He seems to mention that beyond that there is darkness or dark regions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2013 18:19

The kakasura story is interesting. There are two types of crows: the steel grey headed crow and the all balck crow(raven? aka nalla kaki). The eyes are setback unlike in a pigeon and the crow has to tilt its head to see. So it appears to use one eye.

In Telugu this episode is also called 'pichuka meeda Brahmastram" using a Brahmastaram on a sparrow. It is ususally interpreted as Sita admonishing Rama for the delay in rescuing her where as he was ready to utilize the Brahmastram on a mere bird. She then sets a timeline for her rescue.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 26 Sep 2013 00:51

venug wrote:Sugriva also directs his vanara army to different places in all the four directions. If only someone can map the places they were sent to it would be fantastic. If I remember correctly, he mentions Japan as the land where the sun rays first touch the earth, that's the farthest East his army goes(is this true?) He seems to mention that beyond that there is darkness or dark regions.

What sugriva describes can be roughly traced to....

Upto Chile/Peru and all the way to Andes (but not beyond Andes..i.e east of Andes) in East direction

upto Saiberia and North/Arctic sea in the North

upto Lebanon/Israel.. or possibly up to Spain/Portugal in the West

SriLanka, and possibly Antartica.. in the south.

(No clear indications about Africa).
--------------
Venug,

Sugriva described this , it appears, to impress Rama with his knowledge of geography. All search partying going that far (all geographical regions described by Sugiva) is unlikely.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 26 Sep 2013 08:57

Talking of Ramayana and the route taken, there are at least four temples in Chennai that dates to Ramayana times
1) Ramanathaswamy temple near Porur 2) Korungaleeswarar temple in Koyambedu. Kurugi in Tamil means shrink and the legend is that Eswara shrunk himself so that the little twins of Lava and Kusha could workship him
3) Siruvapuri perumal temple - siruvan means boy and the place where Lava and Kusha fought Rama
4) Tiruvanmiyur Marundheeshwarar temple. Vanmi is from Valmiki.

Some of them have been covered here
http://www.dharsanam.com/2008/04/porur- ... warar.html

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 27 Sep 2013 01:24

Nilesh ji, thank you, with names of those times it really is difficult to map the places to the current ones. Yes you are correct Sri Rama on hearing Sugriva's geographic knowledge was really amazed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Sep 2013 01:28

venug, Looking into my phone the pravachanam title is "Prahalada Charitam by Oruganti Rajarajeshwari Prasad". its from Pothana Bhagavatam. It has three files. The person has a squeaky voice but never mind.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Sep 2013 05:54

so interesting path there in rama's traversal..

from dandaka forest, i thought the direction would be little more focused in the direction of lanka.. it appears that only after the point (i can't read the name of the hill on the cauvery banks) at cavery hills his direction hits straight to ravana lands.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Sep 2013 06:14

SaiK wrote:so interesting path there in rama's traversal..

from dandaka forest, i thought the direction would be little more focused in the direction of lanka.. it appears that only after the point (i can't read the name of the hill on the cauvery banks) at cavery hills his direction hits straight to ravana lands.

I don't know what you are saying exactly, but one commentary on Ramayana, Sri Malladi Chandreasekhara Sastry says that in the treta yuga of Sri Rama the Ramasetu started somewhere where he turned his south-east journey in Kerala borders. He says the current Setu we see is only part of it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Sep 2013 06:27

I was just reacting to the kay yum kay rao ind diagram

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Sep 2013 08:23

Mahabharata Resources

http://www.mahabharata-resources.org/
Includes Nilakantha's commentary

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 29 Sep 2013 23:48

ramana wrote: My arguement in the last part of Virata parva is this.

If Bhisma calculated using the concept of adhikamaasa that the Pandavas had the exile period five months earlier than the Uttara Go grahana, then Kichaka vadh/Draupadi's harrassment 15 days before that was not needed. Also why didnt Bhisma say this before they started on the mission to 'out' the Pandavas?

Also did the calender change in that period of exile? Why was there a discrepancy between the bad guys and good guys?

Ramana Garu,

This is an interesting question. I scratched my head for last few days/weeks but could not come up with an answer. I still don't have it. May never have it.

It appears that certainly there was confusion. There is a reference in MBH where Bhima asks for patience of Draupadi for ~15 days (fortnight...or 13 days or something like that) and thus per Bhima's calculations 'time of Go-grahana' was exact end of 13 years. But then this contradicts Bhishma's calculation of Pandava spending 4+ months beyond 13 years (based on lunar year calculations).

Bhima's statement from Virata Parva.. referring to 15 days remaining for completion of 13 years. The timing of this is the timing of Kichaka-Vadha (or day before).

Virata Parva 21:17

(edited to post 'image' and removed the link...for MBH text from Virata Parva)

In effect..Time was more than 13 years (per lunar year calculations) and shorter than 13 years (per solar year calculations or at least as claimed by Duryodhana). Bhima's assertion seems to match with the exact time of 'Go-grahana" = completion of 13 years. Question arises.. What calendar Bhima was following and rationale behind it?

Mystery only deepens.

--------------
Added later….

My tentative solution (subject to additional corroboration from Mahabharata text)…

It appears to me that Pandavas completed 13 solar years in exile (12 of Vanavas and last one year in incognito). The timing of Uttara-Go-grahana when they were identified by Kauravas appears to me right at the end of 13 solar years (based on above assertion of Bhima – Virata 21:17).

Bhishma’s statement may be to convince Duryodhana that Pandavas had indeed completed 13 years….whichever way one looked at it.. i.e. 13 years per solar year calculations and 13+ years per lunar year calculations.

We know that Abhimanyu -Uttara wedding took place immediately after this incident (Virat) and based on Uttara’s statement (after death of Abhimanyu) that they were married for ~6 months, we can infer that the timing of Go-grahana was that of Vasanta season (Since timing of War was that of Sharad season).

Out task then is to find out corroborative (or contradicting) references from Mahabharata text to identify the season (Ritu) when Pandavas lost ‘Game of Dice’ second time and began their exile…..

If we can find corroborative references (preferred outcome) or non-contradicting references/absence of any references to Ritu (non-preferred outcome) for beginning of Pandava's exile with that of Vasanta Rutu.....then we can assert that 13 years were completed at the time of Uttara-Go-Grahana..since Solar years would run from one season to next identical season (Vasanta to Vasanta, Sharad to Sharad etc.....unlike Lunar year...completion of which may slip with that of season.. if correction of adhika masa is not made).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Sep 2013 03:44

A few more nuggets.
- Duryodhana doesnt accept Bhisma's calender counting and sends a spy to ask Yudhistir if the exile period is over or not and accepts his word.
- When Urvasi gives shaap to Arjun to turn into a eunuch (Brihannala) Indra gives a boon that it will last only for one year and again right at time of go-grahana the disguise goes away again saying the one year is over.

My thinking is at the end of Dwapara and beginning of Kali the calender was changing from Lunar to Solar and hence this quandary.

Solar calender adherents were few in number but had important positions.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Sep 2013 04:10

No sir, the calculation was done wrongly as adhika masam and Sonya masam etc were not added. Bhishma explains it. Yugasandhi is when the Lord Krishna left his mortal body. It was many years after the war.