Indian Naval Discussion

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Mar 2013 18:11

Which november ???

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2013 18:33

krishnan wrote:Which november ???

Fixed that for you

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Mar 2013 19:18

Ok the way things have been moving n the Vik front. I would not be surprised, that the Ruskies tell us in November that the ship will be delivered in May 14.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Mar 2013 19:56

Maybe , one fine day they realize there is a big hole in the runway

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Mar 2013 03:54

They offer some insights .

My point is that they do not.

Malaysia allegedly bought Flankers after obtaining US comparative data produced by Boeing at its St.Louis facility.A war game was conducted at Hickam where RAAF officers were invited in 2008.The Malaysians allegedly obtained the intel somehow.

I certainly hope Malaysia put a lot more effort into their decision. I just find that a laughing matter - but that is OK. One of the reasons being that IF there were such comparative data it could not come from Boeing - enough said. On war games, there are dime a dozen, there are umpteen Indians that get invited for gaming - from all walks of life.

Why don't you ruminate upon the US general's comments? After all it speaks a lot about our MKIs.Fundamentally a Russian aircraft.

Because, in the ultimate analysis, it has no real meaning. My point being it says nothing about the MKI.

Anyways let it slide, would like more meat in discussions and these have close to none.

Let me revel you a little secret Russian Navy are stationed at Pacific and any force tilting by US will affect their interest as that of China.

What force "tilting"? Pre and post sequester please. (Granted it is OT for this thread, perhaps take it to the international thread.) And that too WRT Russia?

maz · Post by **maz** » 11 Mar 2013 10:11

Guys, this is a naval thread. Please stick to matter naval. Thanks.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Mar 2013 13:32

Philip wrote:NR,Who says anything about these reports ..................

PS:Here are some quotes which if true,should make us consider reopening MIG-21 production!

The F-15 pilots used their simulated combat experience against the thrust vectoring capability of the Lockheed Martin F-22 to exploit a vulnerability of the Su-30 in a hard turn, the pilot said.“So we start to pull in on him, and then all of a sudden you start to see the [Su-30’s aft-] end kick down and he starts doing vectored thrust,” the pilot says.

“But now he starts falling out of the sky. He’s falling out of the sky so fast that you don’t even have to go up,” the pilot adds. “You just have to pull back on the stick a little bit, pull the throttle, go to guns and come in and drill his brains out.” Even so, the professionalism and skill of the IAF pilots at Red Flag gained the respect of the USAF pilots.

However, French Air Force pilots, who deployed to the same event with the Dassault Rafale fighter, apparently engaged in non-friendly activities.“They never really came to any merges,” the pilot explains.

“What they were really doing was, they had all their sensors on sniffing and seeing how our radars worked. And that’s really all they were doing out here. They came out here and they watched the whole flight, with their newest airplane and their newest electronic receiving units, and sucked up all the ‘trons in the air.”

The pilot also says the IAF’s MiG-21 Bison aircraft, modified with Israeli radar, active radar missiles and electronic jammers, are nearly “invisible” to the F-15 and F-16’s current mechanically-scanned arrays, allowing the Indian pilots to sneak past the USAF radar screen and engage the F-15s and F-16s in dogfights.

“The MiG-21 had the ability to get in the scissors with you at 110kts at 60 degrees nose high and go from 10,000 to 20,000 feet,” he said.

If this guy says the MiG 21 Bison has a Israeli radar, he is to be believed with a ton of salt !!!!

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 11 Mar 2013 18:08

china is buying 4 amur 1650 from russia .

does anyone have complete news ???

John · Post by **John** » 11 Mar 2013 22:22

It has been offered and rosoboronexport has been desperately trying to package it in with other weapon system to get china to fund Amur's development, Russia navy is unlikely to throw any more money into this. I doubt the Chinese would go for it either.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Mar 2013 13:18

China is building a new class of sub,upgraded Yuans called the AIP (Strirling engine) class.Pak is to get 6 of these.They feature a 3 silo missile launcher package as part of the fin,which can carry N-tipped missiles.The website has excellent pics of the class and other developments.They pose a distinct gthreat to the IN which is sorely sub-depleted.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/2012.htm

THE RISING SEA DRAGON IN ASIA - 2012 UPDATE
By Jeff Head - Last Update: January 26, 2013

EXcerpt:

2011 has seen significant increases in major combatant shipbuilding by the PLAN across the board. From the PLA Navy's first carrier being launched and sent to sea for trials, to continued testing and production of J-15 fighters for that carrier's airwing, to the increased tempo of serial production of the PLAN's Type 071 LPD, the Yuzhao Class (with a second and third unit launched and a fourth being built), to increased serial production of the PLAN's premier stealthy, area-wide anti-air/multipurpose destroyer, the Lanzhou Type 52C Class DDG with VLS and PARS which now has seen a 3rd, 4th, and 5th unit launched and a 6th, 7th and an 8th unit under construction, to continued rapid production of the modern Type 054A FFG Guided missiles Frigate, which now numbers 16 units either launched or about to be launched, to a brand new class of Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV), the Type 056 Class which appears to be a PLAN litoral combatant which is already building in two shipyards and may expand to as many as four shipyards for very rapid production (30 or more units), to production of a new, improved Yuan Class SSK conventional submarine, the Qing Class, which has Air-independent Propulsion (AIP) capabilities.

While increased production picked up in all of the above areas, units of the Type 093 SSN, Nuclear attack Submarine, the Shang Class, with improved reactors, sensors, and weapons suite continue trials and introduction into the fleet at a slower rate, along with the same for the Type 094 Jin Class ballistic missile submarines.

In addition, the PLAN sent its 10th task force to the Arabian Sea to conduct anti-piracy operations, usually sending a guided missile destroyer, a guided missile frigate, and a UNREP logistics vessel to perform these duties, which is giving many, many Chinese sailors and commanders in the PLAN blue water experience. The PLAN has sustained these operations now for going on three years without pause.

As in past years, other, ongoing exercises of the many new units the PLAN has introduced into its fleets continues to improve their performance and ability to operate cohesively with their new technology, particularly as surface action groups and task forces. They do this by conducting exercises and manuevers regularly, and have the money to sustain these operations. This will continue at an increased tempo once their new carrier finishes trials, is commissioned and is introduced into the fleet.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 12 Mar 2013 21:44

Pakis will scout for second hand Type-214's or scorpenes from france on loan before they finally touch these jokes from china. PN knows exacly what they will get from chinese subs and are not very keen on it. In desperation they may buy a few but thats no reason for IN to go for amur.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Mar 2013 09:04

Second lease of Akula class SSN ?

India is interested in renting the second submarine of the "Nerpa"

Indian Defense Ministry is ready to finance the completion of the second nuclear submarine of project 971 "Pike-B", then take the ship out, reports RIA Novosti referring to a high-ranking source in the Russian military-industrial complex. India is currently leased from Russia sister ship "Nerpa". Robust housing second submarine of Project 971 is fully completed and in the stocks at the Amur shipyard.

Further details on the possible rental India second type submarine "Nerpa" are not specified. The first such ship in the Navy received the name of "Chakra", India has adopted the beginning of April 2012. The same ship is included in the Russian Navy as the "Nerpa". In late December 2011, the General Staff of the Russian Navy parties signed acceptance report "Chakras" Indian Navy and the official handover ceremony was held at the end of the ship in January 2012 at the shipyard "Zvezda".

India leases "Chakra" for a period of ten years. The rent is $ 900 million. Submarine displacement 12.8 tons can dive to a depth of 600 meters and a speed of 30 knots. The ship is armed with missile complex "Club-S" and new torpedoes.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 13 Mar 2013 09:38

Submarine displacement 12.8 tons can dive to a depth of 600 meters

It's good if we could lease the second sub. IMHO we should purchase 6-8 Akula's to patrol Indo-Pacific.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 13 Mar 2013 11:01

Why not get the blueprints and just build them. IN needs 5 SSBN and 10 SSN's by 2030.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Mar 2013 12:23

A question, Will Nirbhay fit in INS Chakra Tubes and replace the Club S

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 13 Mar 2013 12:32

Bheeshma wrote:Why not get the blueprints and just build them. IN needs 5 SSBN and 10 SSN's by 2030.

for one akula's are strategic subs , if your go to wiki page of akula class you will find that 2 akula stayed near highly secured (as they say) American coasts for a month without being detected & these are the missions in the public domain. There maybe a lot of secret missions that they may have done & are doing as i am writing this post.

we are very lucky to get one or maybe two of these subs blueprints is out of question my friend .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akula_class_submarine

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 13 Mar 2013 12:35

Aditya_V wrote:A question, Will Nirbhay fit in INS Chakra Tubes and replace the Club S

the dimensions of nirbhay is same as Club S so they may fit

the important question is that we now have about 10 improved & updated kilo class with club s firing capability , can they fire Nirbhay in few years.

just imagine 10 kilo + 2-3 arihant + 2 chakra with nirbhay with range of 1000+ Kms , it will make Indian Navy a potent force .

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Mar 2013 13:29

And hopefully we can integrator Nirbhay with the Scorpenes also

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Mar 2013 14:02

all submarine torpedo rooms and racks are sized to accomodate 18-20feet long x 21" weapons.
so no doubt the nirbhay can go on scorpenes as well.

the only downer is scorpene/kilo carry only around 12-15 weapons...so given their main role of ASW/ASuW ( ASM & HWT) they cannot carry any worthwhile loadout of SLCM unless the mission is dedicated for that role from day1...like a punitive strike mission in response to some incident.

SSNs carry around 30..40 weapons + upto 8..12 VL tubes and have far more multi role meat on the platform.

the Akula class has room for 40 weapons. Arihant will have similar number. even on a hunter-killer mission, the Akula can still carry 8 SLCM with small n-weapons/conventional while still retaining 30 brahmos/klub/HWT

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 13 Mar 2013 14:41

Austin wrote:Second lease of Akula class SSN ?

That sub currently is just three un-finished pressure hull sections.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Mar 2013 14:58

SNaik wrote:
Austin wrote:Second lease of Akula class SSN ?
That sub currently is just three un-finished pressure hull sections.

I see , even if Indian orders the 2nd Akula today it would take 5-6 years to build a new one and I doubt they have space the Sev yard as it seems fully busy ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Mar 2013 16:33

If ordered fast, the sub can be built in 3-4 years time.Russian yards have a very fas rate of sub building.
OZ is planning 12 subs at a cost of over $10billion,which works out to around $800+ million per conventional AIP sub,of around 3-4000t only.Amurs are available from around $150m to $300m per sub.Certainly worth considering in an FMS sale.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Mar 2013 09:05

India in talks with Russia on lease of a second nuclear submarine - Vladimir Radyuhin, The Hindu
Some more info.

India is in talks with Russia for the lease of a second nuclear submarine, said a senior official in the Russian defence industry.

India is ready to finance the completion of a partly constructed nuclear submarine which sits at the Amur Shipbuilding Plant in the Russian Far East, Russian government news agency RIA Novosti has said quoting an unnamed “highly-placed” source in the defence industry.

The submarine belongs to the same Project 971 as the Nerpa submarine which India leased from Russia in 2011 for 10 years at a cost of $970 million. It was commissioned as INS Chakra in April 2012.

India keen on it

“India has expressed interest in having the second submarine of this project completed,” the Russian official said. “The strong hull of the submarine is fully ready and carefully kept in a slipway at the Amur Shipyard.”

The official said an inter-government agreement for the resumption of the submarine construction “is in the works.”

“As was the case with the first submarine, the second one would be up for lease, not sale,” he said.

Package deal

Russia had agreed to lease two nuclear submarines to India under a package deal for the retrofit of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, but four years ago Russia’s top defence export official suggested that Moscow could lease “several” nuclear submarines to India.

“There is a real possibility of leasing to India for 10 years several of our nuclear powered multi-role submarines of Project 971 ‘Shchuka-B’ class,” Director of Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) Mikhail Dmitriyev said in December 2008, shortly after the delivery of the Nerpa submarine was postponed following an accidental discharge of poisonous fire-fighting gas aboard the vessel that killed 20 seamen during sea trials.

However, Russia today has only one unfinished Project 971 submarine, Irbis, which was mothballed due to lack of funds at the Amur Shipyard in the 1990s when it was 42-per cent ready.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Mar 2013 09:19

there were two incomplete Oscar class subs - I wonder if scrapped later or still lying around?
their inclined tubes for Granit might also be able to launch K15 missiles and certainly nirbhay or brahmos.

given our precarious rate of ship building might be worth a good look.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Mar 2013 09:27

Oscar subs are huge and would be a major task to operate,though strike potential massive.Some time ago there were reports about us being interested in the Sierra class.This Akula seems to be moistly complete and already in the pipeline,so should reach us by 2015 at the earliest.

The Pakis cannot afford German subs,which will be at least $500m per sub.Secondly,both Germana and French subs cannot accommodate larger cruise missiles,which can be done on this new PLAN class.There was one ingenious PRC design,built,where the Kilo clone had a bulge beneath the hull to accommodate longer missiles.Reports say that the Pakis have already ordered 6 of these subs.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Mar 2013 11:55

If we take the Oscar classes of the world, where in India will we house them? Karwar? Or is the base near Vizag likely to be ready when these beasts come.

Even if its not the Oscars, we will certainly need berthing space for our quickly expanding fleet of N-subs soon.

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Mar 2013 14:09

Let's forget Nerpas and concentrate on more Arihants

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Mar 2013 14:46

i wonder if PLAN will trust shorter-sourer birathers with N-subs with proper missiles? would they not just base one of their own subs in gwadar instead?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Mar 2013 10:20

Nerpa and Arihant perform different roles , without a SSN a CBG would be a toast against any enemy that possess one. Conventional submarine cannot keep up with CBG not even a conventional powered one.

Right now we need minimum 2 SSN , ome each for CBG on East and West thats the primary objective of leasing an SSN , financial conditions of navy permitting we should build a force of 5 SSN , 2 each for CBG and 3 for General purpose SSN duties.

US and Russian CBG when they go out are accompained by 2 SSN providing long range cover for CBG to prevent sneaking of enemy SSN inside the cover.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Mar 2013 15:31

Most interesting article/report on Russia resurrecting its old titanium hulled Barracuda subs.There are many ex-Soviet nuclear boats in Russia with plenty of life left in them,just like the Akulas we're leasing.Many say that the earlier scrapping of the noisy but extraordinarily fast Alfa class was a mistake.The hulls can last 100 years.

A list of existing Russian boats which can be restored to service (cost-effectively) for transfer to India like the Akulas would be an interesting exercise.

http://indrus.in/economics/2013/03/13/t ... 22889.html

Titanium submarines return to Russian fleet
March 13, 2013 Aleksei Mikhailov, Izvestia
The Russian Navy has decided to recommission the unique Barracuda submarine (Project 945), whose hull is made of titanium.

Titanium subs were first built in the 1980s, since they are more durable and do not attract magnetic mines. But because the cost of titanium is several times higher than that of steel, the construction of titanium submarines was put on hold after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

A high-ranking source in the Russian Navy Command told Izvestia that the decision to revive the Barracuda was taken in January at a meeting with Navy Commander-in-Chief Viktor Chirkov.

"It was not a spontaneous decision, we carefully considered all aspects and concluded that restoring the submarine would be more cost-effective than scrapping it," he explained.

The Navy presently has four titanium nuclear submarines in service (excluding mini-submarines for deep-sea research): two Barracudas, the K-239 Karp, and the K-276Kostroma, plus two titanium subs modernized under the Condor program (Project 945A) — the K-336 Pskov and the K-534 Nizhny Novgorod.

The main targets of the Barracuda and Condor are aircraft carriers and other submarines, which can be destroyed by torpedoes fired from two 650-mm and four 533-mm launchers. In contrast to the Barracuda, the Condor can fire Granat nuclear cruise missiles and plunge to a depth of 600 meters, instead of 550. The vessels can defend against air attack with Igla anti-aircraft missiles.
Military
Defence and Security

All the boats are part of the 7th Submarine Division of the Northern Fleet (based at Vidyaevo), but since 1994 the Karp has been stationed at the Zvezdochka dockyard, awaiting maintenance.

A contract for the renovation of the first two submarines was signed with Zvezdochka. Under the arrangement, the plant is due to combine standard repair work with modernization. Izvestia was informed by a top manager at Zvezdochka that all nuclear fuel and electronics on board the vessels will be replaced and the mechanical parts inspected and repaired. Maintenance of the nuclear reactors will also be carried out.
Related:

Yury Dolgoruky nuclear sub joins Russian Navy

Russia sees opportunities in India’s new submarine deal

"According to the schedule, by late April the K-239 Karp could be transferred from the fleet's list of assets to the plant's. By that time, all diagnosis and troubleshooting should be complete and the work schedule approved. Maintenance work is due to begin this summer and last for 2-3 years, in the best-case scenario. It is possible that the time frame could be extended, since the situation regarding suppliers is not clear. After the Karp, next up for repair will be the Kostroma,” said a Zvezdochka spokesman, adding that, despite its age, the titanium hull was "in excellent condition."

"Unlike steel, titanium does not corrode, so if you remove the noise-absorbing rubber coating, the body underneath is as good as new," explained a repair worker.

According to preliminary data, the titanium subs will be fitted with new hydroacoustic stations, combat information and control systems, reconnaissance radar, and a GLONASS/GPS navigation system. In addition, the boats will have upgraded weapons systems with the ability to fire cruise missiles from the Kalibr complex (Club-S), including at ground targets.

The durability of titanium submarines was demonstrated in 1992, when the Kostromanuclear submarine collided with the U.S. Los Angeles. The deck cabin of the Russian vessel was slightly damaged, whereas the American boat had to be written off.

In an interview with Izvestia, Dmitry Boltenkov, an independent military expert and author of many books on the history of the Russian Navy, described the atomic titanium-body submarine as a "national treasure."

"The restoration of the fleet's multipurpose nuclear submarines is one of its most important programs. Unfortunately, subs make up barely a third of the total number of vessels, so the return of Project 945 is certainly good news. Thanks to the titanium hull, these boats can serve up to 100 years," he said.

However, former Navy Chief-of-Staff Victor Kravchenko explained that the decision to restore vessels built in the 1980s was not the most expedient solution.

“Modern steel alloys can withstand the same depths as titanium. Therefore, as in Soviet times, titanium has no real advantage over steel. I think it would be better to build new vessels — they would be a greater asset," believes Kravchenko.

When repaired, the four nuclear vessels in the 7th Submarine Division of the Northern Fleet are expected to be based at Vidyaevo.

First published in Russian in Izvestia.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 15 Mar 2013 19:55

Austin wrote: I see , even if Indian orders the 2nd Akula today it would take 5-6 years to build a new one and I doubt they have space the Sev yard as it seems fully busy ?

Can we expect some thing to get from the Yasen and Borei Programme in the 2nd Sub?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 15 Mar 2013 19:58

still faster than what our own shipyards can do

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Mar 2013 20:54

AbhiJ wrote:Can we expect some thing to get from the Yasen and Borei Programme in the 2nd Sub?

Russia are upgrading their Akula and Sierra which will bring it close to 4th gen standards , perhaps even our Akula can be upgraded to similar standards.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 Mar 2013 06:23

Russian Frigate Built for India Completes Sea Trials

18:22 15/03/2013 MOSCOW, March 15 (RIA Novosti) - The last in a series of three frigates that Russia is building for India at the Yantar Shipyard in the Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad has completed contractor sea trials, a spokesman for the shipyard said on Friday.

Sergei Mikhailov said the trials of The Trikand frigate in the Baltic Sea began on February 5 and were completed on March 14.

“Within this period, the vessel carried out five voyages in the Baltic Sea, each lasting several days,” Mikhailov said.

The Trikand is currently at the Baltiisk port, preparing for state sea trials. It is scheduled to join the Indian Navy in the summer of 2013.

Russia and India signed a $1.6 billion contract on the construction of three modified Krivak III class (also known as Talwar class) guided missile frigates for India in 2006.

The first frigate, INS Teg, joined the Indian Navy on April 27, 2012, and the second, The Tarkash, arrived at the port of Mumbai in India on December 30, 2012.

The frigates are each armed with eight BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

They are also equipped with a 100-mm gun, a Shtil surface-to-air missile system, two Kashtan air-defense gun/missile systems, two twin 533-mm torpedo launchers and an antisubmarine warfare (ASW) helicopter.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Mar 2013 21:46

Trouble for India in the future with large port facilities for the PLAN at Hambantota and in Myanmar.With a huge naval base at Gwadar too,one can now clearly see the strategic dimensions of the Chinese masterplan to challenge India in the IOR and protect its merchant/petro fleet transiting the IOR with events in the Maldives being part of its strategy to install anti0-Indian regimes around us.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/benga ... /1087084/0

BENGAL'S WATERS

The Bay of Bengal, India thinks, is its backwaters. It should think again; for Beijing is all set to transform the geo-economics of the Bay of Bengal. The China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) is about to complete the construction of the natural gas pipeline from Myanmar's Rakhine coast to Kunming, the capital of Yunnan in south-western China.

The pipeline traverses nearly 800 km north-east from the island of Kyaukpyu (pronounced "Tchapru") to enter Yunnan. It is designed to carry nearly 12 billion cubic metres of gas per year, nearly a third of current Chinese imports of natural gas. A small portion of the gas will be consumed along the way in Myanmar.

Myanmar and China announced the project in 2008 after Yangon failed to secure an agreement with New Delhi and Dhaka on a trilateral pipeline project that was endlessly debated but could not be moved forward.

Work began on the project after Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao visited Myanmar in 2010. That it took barely three years to complete it underlines China's purposeful implementation of major cross-border projects.

Despite the recent setbacks to Chinese investments in Myanmar, Beijing's economic presence in the country will continue to grow. While Myanmar looks for more commercial partners, China is likely to remain its most important one.

In 2011, Myanmar ordered the suspension of work on the Myitsone hydel project that was being developed by China Power Investment Corporation, creating a big flutter in the relations between Yangon and Beijing.

Lack of a credible assessment of environmental impact, the massive displacement of people and the plans to ship most of the electricity to Yunnan saw largescale protests by the local population, compelling Yangon to act.

More recently, protests have enveloped a major project by China's Norinco Company to develop one of the world's largest copper deposits in Myanmar. Meanwhile, Beijing's ambitious infrastructure projects are connecting China to the Bay of Bengal through Myanmar.

KYAUKPYU TERMINUS

The natural gas pipeline is only one of the many projects that are centred on the Kyaukpyu Island. CNPC is also building an oil pipeline along the same alignment as the gas pipeline. The oil pipeline is expected to carry nearly 22 million tonnes of oil a year from Kyaukpyu to Yunnan.

An oil terminal is being built by Chinese companies near port de Bruno, the capital of Kyaukpyu special administrative zone. Once operational, ultra-large crude carriers (ULCC) sailing back and forth from Kyaukpyu will be a common sight in the Bay of Bengal.

This large capacity oil transportation route will not be an alternative to the Malacca Straits — through which most of Chinese oil imports pass through. But it will provide a useful complement and a short-cut to moving hydrocarbons into western China.

China also plans to build a highway between Kyaukpyu and Yunnan as well as a high-speed rail link. Chinese companies are developing a large special economic zone in Kyaukpyu and power plants to fuel it.

Beijing also has plans to build a deep water commercial seaport at Kyaukpyu's natural harbour. The betting is that Kyaukpyu could become a major port for transshipment in the Bay of Bengal.

Authorities in Yangon are reportedly considering China's plans to build a "mini-Singapore" on the Kyaukpyu Island. Chinese investments in Kyaukpyu could amount to nearly $100 billion if all the current plans materialise over the next two decades.

Would it be illogical, then, for Beijing to consider securing its massive investments in Kyaukpyu with a credible naval presence in the Bay of Bengal?

DREAMING SOUTH

It was the British Raj that first thought of developing a transport corridor into western China through Myanmar in the late 19th century. The Raj of course lacked the financial resources. Its successors in Delhi could not imagine the economic possibilities of the Bay of Bengal. But Beijing's rulers in the 20th century have never stopped dreaming of the southern waters.

The Qing dynasty in the early 20th century considered building roads to the Bay of Bengal through Myanmar. The nationalist government that followed drew up plans for a rail link to the Indian Ocean. In the 1950s, the People's Republic considered similar proposals. As China's resources now match Beijing's ambitious policy of "looking south", the Bay of Bengal will never be the same again.

The writer is a distinguished fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi and a contributing editor for 'The Indian Express'

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 17 Mar 2013 22:06

China doesn't have the muscle to put anything in these places. Though IN should invest in engaging into South China Sea using this as an excuse.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Mar 2013 01:12

/Trouble for India in the future with large port facilities for the PLAN at Hambantota and in Myanmar.With a huge naval base at Gwadar too,one can now clearly see the strategic dimensions of the Chinese masterplan to challenge India in the IOR and protect its merchant/petro fleet transiting the IOR with events in the Maldives being part of its strategy to install anti0-Indian regimes around us.

You do realize that a Chinese ship coming out of one of those facilities means that that host nation is fair game, right?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Mar 2013 07:10

http://www.military-today.com/navy/sierra_1_class.htm

Details of the Barracuda (Sierra 1) class subs which are going to be modernised and return to service by Russia.The titanium hulled subs cab dive to depths far greater than any US sub.The IN was at one time reportedly interested in acquiring Sierra class subs.2 Sierra 2 subs are still in service.The Akulas replaced the Sierrras but do not have their titanium hulls.

NR.That's not on,unless there is evidence of collusion between the two against India.Remember the WW2 battle of the River Plate? The Graf Spee took refuge in neutral Montevideo,but had to leave and face the music.The British cleverly used international law to delay the warship from leaving,allowing naval reinforcements to arrive on the scene,fooled the Germans into thinking that carriers were on their way too and orders from Berlin were to scuttle the ship and not allow the crew to be interned in Uruguay. Its captain chose to scuttle the ship and save his crew,but Capt.Langsdorff took his own life.

With so little obvious damage, the British asked the Uruguayans to invoke the rule used internationally for an undamaged warship in a neutral port – that it had 24-hours to leave. Either this, or the crew would be interned.

I wonder though how any GOI of UPA spine(lessness) would even attack an enemy warship or sub egressing Hambantota or a Burmese port,let alone the host nation not at war with India.In such situs,we have to :bite the bullet" and take the hardest road to travel on,like the RN did at Mers-el-Kebir,when they destroyed the French fleet at anchor,which had taken refuge there after the fall of France and prevent it from getting into Vichy/German hands,despite France being a military ally.This is where Winston Churchill proved to be a wartime leader with few equals in history.In another incident kept secret for decades,a ship carrying hundreds of troops was allegedly allowed to be sunk by the Germans to prevent one of the greatest espionage deceptions (the Normandy invasions) from being exposed.

PS:A few years ago I and others on BR warned of Chinese moves to bypass the Malacca Straits by building up base and petro-terminal facilities in Burma.True to form,the Chinese speak little but swiftly accomplish a lot.You suddenly wake up one day to discover that they've completed the Tibet railway,Tibetan Highway to POK,Hambantota Port,pipeline to Burma-from where they can also link it up with B'Desh and buy B'Desh gas cementing relations even further with Islamic BD,and in the future Gwadar base,Burmese ports,etc .Please do not underestimate the Chinese,Nehru and co. did in '62.Do we want a repeat? The new warmonger leader of the dragon,"Leaky Qing",actually barred the 3 Indian journos in Beijing from his press conference! This exemplifies the mentality of the PRC's new lower intestinal parasite and his contempt of India.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 18 Mar 2013 11:39

VinodTK wrote:Russian Frigate Built for India Completes Sea Trials
18:22 15/03/2013 MOSCOW, March 15 (RIA Novosti) - The last in a series of three frigates that Russia is building for India at the Yantar Shipyard in the Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad has completed contractor sea trials, a spokesman for the shipyard said on Friday.

Sergei Mikhailov said the trials of The Trikand frigate in the Baltic Sea began on February 5 and were completed on March 14.

“Within this period, the vessel carried out five voyages in the Baltic Sea, each lasting several days,” Mikhailov said.

The Trikand is currently at the Baltiisk port, preparing for state sea trials. It is scheduled to join the Indian Navy in the summer of 2013.

Russia and India signed a $1.6 billion contract on the construction of three modified Krivak III class (also known as Talwar class) guided missile frigates for India in 2006.

The first frigate, INS Teg, joined the Indian Navy on April 27, 2012, and the second, The Tarkash, arrived at the port of Mumbai in India on December 30, 2012.

The frigates are each armed with eight BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

They are also equipped with a 100-mm gun, a Shtil surface-to-air missile system, two Kashtan air-defense gun/missile systems, two twin 533-mm torpedo launchers and an antisubmarine warfare (ASW) helicopter.

Time to order the third set.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Mar 2013 14:50

There is a very neat new Russian frigate design which looks much better stealthwise than the Krivak-3/4 Talwar class.where all the missiles are in VLS silos,larger main gun,etc.,not much larger than the Talwars.I think that it also has a new SAM system,better capability than the Shtils and could carry upto 16 Brahmos class SSMs.If tweaked,it could accommodate two ASW helos or helo+ UAV.It seems to be smaller than the P-17s and would probably take just the same amount of time as the Talwars.