VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Sep 2021 18:32

Vivek K wrote:An opportunity to showcase the LCA missed. What is so special about lining up your purchased aircraft on a ramp? The IAF is still not able to decide if it wants to continue using the Jags with their underpowered issue that jeopardizes egress from hot zones. Would have been better to show LCAs, Sukhois, M2Ks and Rafales. That would have been a more potent formation.

What is special in this image it shows the operational readiness of the IAF. Both the newest and oldest combat aircraft in the IAF fleet are ready for operations. That is the point of the elephant walk. When sufficient numbers of Tejas join the IAF, it too will undergo an elephant walk.

The initial Jaguar squadrons will be retired this decade. The 83 Mk1As - along with other inductions - will serve as the replacement.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Sep 2021 18:50

Rakesh wrote: What is special in this image it shows the operational readiness of the IAF..

That the main thing. In surge operations you are expected to maintain near 100% availability for XX days of combat. This is the general expectation. Readiness exercises simulate your ability to at short notices put a large amount of your fleet up in the air. An elephant walk that launches an entire wing's worth of aircraft directly contributes to training for that while also helping ground and air crews learn how to launch that many aircraft quickly something that they may have to do in wartime for many reasons.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Sep 2021 20:14

A major part of the picture is the Jaguar. Rafales, M2K and MKI with LCA would put the actual deterrent in view.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Sep 2021 20:21

The elephant walk was conducted at Ambala - home base of two Jaguar squadrons and one Rafale squadron.

If the elephant walk was conducted at Lohegaon - home to No 20 Lightnings and No 30 Rhinos - then it would have been the Su-30MKI.

When the elephant walk will be conducted at Sulur - home to No 45 Flying Daggers and No 18 Flying Bullets - then it will be the HAL Tejas.

Read brar's post (above yours) about the elephant walk. This particular elephant walk was meant to send a message to a certain audience. The purpose of this particular elephant walk was NOT to promote indigenization.

Ambala AFS - home base of the first Rafale unit - is right smack in the middle of the eastern and western fronts (illustrated below in the red marker), so the IAF can move these assets to either theatre, depending on where they need them. Hasimara AFS - home base of the second Rafale squadron - on the map below, is between Bangladesh and Bhutan.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Sep 2021 21:50

Rakesh wrote: When the elephant walk will be conducted at Sulur - home to No 45 Flying Daggers and No 18 Flying Bullets - then it will be the HAL Tejas.

I saw a satellite image on twitter recently showing a Tejas operationally deployed at Suratgarh.

I'm sure it's just a detachment on temporary deployment but I hope the No. 45 squadron gets permanently moved to a forward base in the near future.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Sep 2021 22:26

nachiket wrote:I saw a satellite image on twitter recently showing a Tejas operationally deployed at Suratgarh.

I'm sure it's just a detachment on temporary deployment but I hope the No. 45 squadron gets permanently moved to a forward base in the near future.

You are correct Sirjee.

Sulur was supposed to be a temporary home base. They will eventually move out of there to other air bases. Especially with the Mk1A variant.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Sep 2021 23:23

Ideal place will be Srinagar and Udhampur where it can replace Bisons in this very important sector, Tejas and Mig 29 should be our ORP aircraft.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Sep 2021 23:47

Aditya_V wrote:Ideal place will be Srinagar and Udhampur where it can replace Bisons in this very important sector, Tejas and Mig 29 should be our ORP aircraft.

That will happen automatically once the Bisons are retired. Till then the Bisons will stay where they are I suppose since that is the role they are the best at anyway.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 02 Sep 2021 00:25

^^ There was a report of No 18 Squadron Flying Bullets would move to Srinagar once all fighters join by end of 2022.

I see a idrw repot for same which must be a steal of something originally published in mainstream.

https://idrw.org/srinagar-airbase-to-ge ... n-in-2022/

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Sep 2021 06:06

At this point, just do order the 72 and be done with MRCA/MRFA/MXXX saga.. 72 has a lot of significance for everyone!

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 02 Sep 2021 06:51

One squadron of Rafale every year till AMCA is available

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Sep 2021 06:56

Dream on! The truth will be - one LCA squadron every year!

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 02 Sep 2021 07:16

Rafale is too old-school. We should import one squadron of F-35 and one squadron of Su-57 every year till AMCA Mk-2 is available.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 03 Sep 2021 08:49

nachiket wrote:
I'm sure it's just a detachment on temporary deployment but I hope the No. 45 squadron gets permanently moved to a forward base in the near future.

It is speculated that No. 45 will be deployed in a base in Rajasthan by end of this year...
Most probably it will be Suratgarh or Uttarlai or Jodhpur...
My bet is on Suratgarh...

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 03 Sep 2021 09:05

Vivek K wrote:Dream on! The truth will be - one LCA squadron every year!

Dreaming on - I wish two lca mk1a till mk2 and then 2 mk2 till amca. Then I will b okay with one each year.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Sep 2021 19:55

Sorry - each Rafale takes away from LCAs! We all have accepted that another 36 are coming. Beyond that turn to LCAs. If that capability is so urgently needed, why is it not seen in the MK2 program for the LCA. Why isn’t IAF working with HAL/DRDO to expedite MK2?

We can still exploit the full potential of MK1 and MK1A.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Sep 2021 20:45

As per the second tweet, Dassault is delivering three Rafales per month from October to December. So nine more Rafales will arrive by the end of the year. The last Rafale will come - as per schedule - sometime in early 2022 and the 35 Rafales will be upgraded with the ISE updates by Sept 2022. Kudos to Dassault for a quick delivery schedule. Order two more Rafale squadrons and end the MRFA/MMRCA farce.

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 16384?s=20 ---> The 36th Rafale fighter of the IAF will be equipped with all the classified India Specific Enhancements with some technologies having Israeli origins.

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 31650?s=20 ---> The next three Rafales will land in India on October 13th. France will deliver three Rafale fighters per month for the next three months. One squadron of Rafale is equivalent to 2.5 squadron of Su-30MKI.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 10 Sep 2021 22:58

One squadron of Rafale every year till AMCA is available

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 10 Sep 2021 23:08

This is not a farmayish forum that you should waste the thread by your brain farting farmayishes!

Admin note: please report posts and not go OT with such responses

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 11 Sep 2021 09:44

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 31650?s=20 ---> The next three Rafales will land in India on October 13th. France will deliver three Rafale fighters per month for the next three months. One squadron of Rafale is equivalent to 2.5 squadron of Su-30MKI.

This is a sweeping statement of dubious worth (IMO). What does it mean, precisely?

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 11 Sep 2021 10:08

Roop wrote: This is a sweeping statement of dubious worth (IMO). What does it mean, precisely?

Link to full article is here--->
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 86620.html

The full sentence is this---> "It is understood that one squadron of Rafale is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons of Russian Su-30 MKI in terms of turnaround and maintenance."

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Sep 2021 10:17

Thank you Lakshman for the clarification. Greatly appreciated.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Sep 2021 02:22

LakshmanPST wrote:
Roop wrote: This is a sweeping statement of dubious worth (IMO). What does it mean, precisely?
Link to full article is here--->
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 86620.html

The full sentence is this---> "It is understood that one squadron of Rafale is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons of Russian Su-30 MKI in terms of turnaround and maintenance."

Wonder how they came up with that calculation, even with the enhanced availability levels of the MKI thanks to Parrikar jis push?
This statement makes sense in the pre MP days, when the fleet availability was hovering around 40-50%.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Sep 2021 03:27

Bala Vignesh wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote: Link to full article is here--->
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 86620.html

The full sentence is this---> "It is understood that one squadron of Rafale is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons of Russian Su-30 MKI in terms of turnaround and maintenance."
Wonder how they came up with that calculation, even with the enhanced availability levels of the MKI thanks to Parrikar jis push?
This statement makes sense in the pre MP days, when the fleet availability was hovering around 40-50%.

Such statements are best taken with a large sack of salt. Meaningless. Even in terms of availability, if you pour in the funds for support, maintenance and logistics, it will go up considerably (and so will cost). Such agreements are tied in with western hardware purchases and they therefore have seemingly great uptimes. BUT in reality same can be done with Russki maal. Case in point - Shar and M2k, both of which reached low points during UPA.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Sep 2021 05:09

They are building the case for additional Rafales, so you will see all these news articles come out.

There is nothing wrong per se in making that argument i.e. Rafale vs Su-30MKI. It is only natural when a new acquisition (Rafale) comes on board, it will be compared to the best available (Su-30MKI) that is currently serving. I remember in Sept 2002, when the first Rambha squadron (No 20 Lightnings) was raised, comparisons were made to the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29. Rambha can carry more ordnance than M2K and MiG-29, Rambha has more combat range than M2K and MiG-29, etc.

But I still hold to the view that once the Super Sukhoi upgrade is complete (and it certainly must be done), the Rambha will be a formidable foe. And icing on the cake will be Indian kit i.e. sensors and weapons.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Sep 2021 06:33

Ironically, it was the Navy that was first interested in the Rafale. See this article from Dec 2002. Back then, the Mirage 2000 production was still open and the IAF only wanted 126 Mirage 2000s. Then the MMRCA contest came and the rest is history...

Admiral Gorshkov May Be Overlooked For French Rafale M Fighter Aircraft
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/a ... aft/67027/
27 Dec 2002

"Since the Navy requires a few carrier-borne aircraft, it is looking at the best and it has identified Rafale M, which is in service with the French Navy," sources added.

Today, the contest is open between the F-18SH and the Rafale M, with the Rafale M likely still leading. But neither should win, IMVHO. Scrap the contest - which is what will likely happen - and focus on TEDBF. The MiG-29K is not going anywhere and IAC-2 is no where on the horizon.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 22 Sep 2021 06:58

First mention of an impending deal for more Rafales. Hope she knows what she's talking about.

It’s clearer to India than ever that Quad is no military alliance. Everything’s a bit AUKUS
https://theprint.in/opinion/global-prin ... us/737008/
21 Sept 2021

As for India, it will welcome an AUKUS-Quad shoe in and will keep her relationship with France in fine fettle — more Rafale fighters are on their way, anyway.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Sep 2021 07:57

ManuJ wrote:First mention of an impending deal for more Rafales. Hope she knows what she's talking about.

Manu Sirjee, see this below. Disclaimer - this twitter account has made tall claims before and it never came to pass. But FWIW....

https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 10116?s=20 ---> India initiates €27 million contract to acquire 24 secon hand Dassault Mirage 2000 jets. 13 aircraft to form another Mirage 2000 squadron, with balance 11 to be cannibalized for parts. Sensible, logical move here that will help arrest squadron decline.

https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 30825?s=20 ---> These aircraft from Dassault would have a quid pro quo attached. Hearing rumors France has offered a sweet deal on a combined order of 114+36 (Navy) Rafale with a line in India. Let's see.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Sep 2021 07:59

^^^ From where the funds for such a massive multi-billion deal is going to come from, still remains to be seen.

But by some weird twist of fate, if this deal comes to pass....I wonder what the Amreekis will say

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Sep 2021 08:36

^^^Well, the French recently offered a pretty tempting deal for additional 36 raffles plus choppers for ~ $5 billion? Maybe they can do one better?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 22 Sep 2021 09:39

ManuJ wrote:First mention of an impending deal for more Rafales. Hope she knows what she's talking about.

It’s clearer to India than ever that Quad is no military alliance. Everything’s a bit AUKUS
https://theprint.in/opinion/global-prin ... us/737008/
21 Sept 2021

As for India, it will welcome an AUKUS-Quad shoe in and will keep her relationship with France in fine fettle — more Rafale fighters are on their way, anyway.

Same motorma said India should put up with Paki terror attacks and give democracy in Pakistan a chance.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 22 Sep 2021 10:49

Having burned bridges with its Anglosaxon allies and lost the mega submarine deal to boot, France must be desperate to cement its strategic alliance with India and secure a significant win for its military industrial complex. Rafale deal of Make in India doesn't sound far-fetched any more.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Sep 2021 11:17

Bala Vignesh wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote: The full sentence is this---> "It is understood that one squadron of Rafale is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons of Russian Su-30 MKI in terms of turnaround and maintenance."
Wonder how they came up with that calculation, even with the enhanced availability levels of the MKI thanks to Parrikar jis push?
This statement makes sense in the pre MP days, when the fleet availability was hovering around 40-50%.

The statement is not a direct quote from anyone in the IAF. Utter hogwash. Even if the Rafale sq availability was magically maintained at 100% (it can't be in real life), the MKI availability would have to be 40% to make that calculation work.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Sep 2021 11:40

Jyoti Malhotra, is a lady from the old school of India. She has not yet been able to understand the reality of new India.

Because, no one in Indian strategic circles had ever articulated a thought that quad will constitute a military alliance against the PRC.

If it developed into an alliance in the future, India would be okay. If it just remained a regional grouping, India would be okay as well.

But for her aukus is a setback for India. When in reality it represents a wonderful opportunity for us.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 22 Sep 2021 12:16

Rakesh wrote:
https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 10116?s=20 ---> India initiates €27 million contract to acquire 24 secon hand Dassault Mirage 2000 jets. 13 aircraft to form another Mirage 2000 squadron, with balance 11 to be cannibalized for parts. Sensible, logical move here that will help arrest squadron decline.

https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 30825?s=20 ---> These aircraft from Dassault would have a quid pro quo attached. Hearing rumors France has offered a sweet deal on a combined order of 114+36 (Navy) Rafale with a line in India. Let's see.

I for one am happy that the French got shafted by the Aussies. These frenchies have been shafting us for too long... with the M2Ks...with the Rafales...and with the Scorpenes.

After all that shafting, if it was the Israelis they would have asked for the 24 M2Ks for free & even re-engineered the engine. Instead, our country's brightest are gushing that the 24 M2Ks are a 'Bargain', 'Sensible, logical move'. Our negotiators should have practically dangled the additional Rafale purchase carrot and got these for free.

Now, if at all we are going to buy more Rafales...If the negotiators in our MOD have any shame, they should utilize the Aussie thappad and ask for 24 more M2Ks free with whatever purchase we are making. Cant believe there's a Gujju at the top and people still dont know how to negotiate deals. 'Sweet Deal' my foot!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Sep 2021 12:30

A million times rumors and misinformation, 24 used M-2000 is hardly going to get us to commit to another 36 Rafales, that too many of which are not in flying condition.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Sep 2021 12:33

These 36 are options from the original contract. If India goes for them, further negotiation is not required.

A number greater than that might require further negotiation. But I don't think that in view of the MWF & ORCA programs. IAF will be permitted to go beyond the options.

That too purely as a stop gap measure.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Sep 2021 12:54

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 30825?s=20 ---> These aircraft from Dassault would have a quid pro quo attached. Hearing rumors France has offered a sweet deal on a combined order of 114+36 (Navy) Rafale with a line in India. Let's see.

I won't be surprised if there had been such an offer.

Macron very quickly called Modi. The French FM has met Jaishankar and is pitching for closer strategic cooperation.

France was considering the Barracudas to Oz and the Rafales to India as its strategic defense initiative in Indo-Pacific. The French were planning to have an India-France-Oz trilateral and that has fallen through now, at least for a decade. The elections are scheduled early next year and the loss of the Oz deal is a big blow both to the prestige of France and Macron personally. As well as the industry there.

Its only significant strategic partner in Indo-Pacific is India. This is a region with considerable French interests.

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Sep 2021 13:31

We should offer them P75I and 36 rafales in return for SSN & Jet engine tech.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Sep 2021 19:59

SSridhar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 30825?s=20 ---> These aircraft from Dassault would have a quid pro quo attached. Hearing rumors France has offered a sweet deal on a combined order of 114+36 (Navy) Rafale with a line in India. Let's see.
I won't be surprised if there had been such an offer.

Macron very quickly called Modi. The French FM has met Jaishankar and is pitching for closer strategic cooperation.

France was considering the Barracudas to Oz and the Rafales to India as its strategic defense initiative in Indo-Pacific. The French were planning to have an India-France-Oz trilateral and that has fallen through now, at least for a decade. The elections are scheduled early next year and the loss of the Oz deal is a big blow both to the prestige of France and Macron personally. As well as the industry there.

Its only significant strategic partner in Indo-Pacific is India. This is a region with considerable French interests.

This sounds likely. Whether desh acquiesces is a different matter but now is the time for some hard bargain to be driven. Get the SMX Ocean + some raffles.

The SMX is no SSN but would be quieter and offer plenty of time on station in the areas of interest to India (similar to those that the Aussies showed in that little graphic). Along with the chakras, this will be a good backup until Desi SSNs start to roll off.