Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 24 May 2014 20:52

Rafale + FGFA vs how many Arihant Mk2s+ SU30MKI Mark X + LCAs + AMCAs.

If we want to discourage that CPRC General, how many SSB/GNs do we need and how many could we build for the 1/2 the price of the Rafale and the FGFA?

srin · Post by **srin** » 24 May 2014 21:16

GeorgeWelch wrote:
nik wrote:Same price - 1000 LCA. More than enough to defend India.

No F***king chinese general will think of taking on an Air-force with 1500 4+ Gen fighters (300 Su 30 MKI and 1200 LCA's).

100 and bankrupt OR 1000 and fighting strong >>> 100% sure our elected chaiwalla will answer this one right. Jai Ho!
- 100 Rafale will not bankrupt India.
- If it were enough to bankrupt India, then spending the same amount on LCA would also bankrupt India.
- You cannot equip an airforce with 1000 LCA for the same price as 100 Rafale anyways.

No - it won't bankrupt India. But it will eat a big chunk of the budget, making money unavailable for other projects - submarines - or our own R&D.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2014 21:33

Dhananjay wrote: So what'll happen to the machinery once all the 189 Rafale's are built? It'll lie there gathering dust, or sold back to france? It'll all become useless?

Tooling will be used for spares, repair and remanufacture of airframes. Some can be used for other projects, most will be very Rafale specific.
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Added later:

I think it was Maitya ji who had pointed out that composites made either by rus or Bharat are very primitive compared to Rafale.

Don't know what he said, but India & Russia continue to evolve & it would a blanket statement to say we are primitive etc.With FGFA and LCA, both countries will continue to improve further and further.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 May 2014 22:01

Do we have to go for old solutions only like buying top class a/cs from gora nations? Why not used our Agni, Prudvi, Prahar, Pinaka-2, Nirbhay, Bramos to do most of the jobs we wish our a/cs to do. Huge cost savings in training, fuel, spare parts, imports, huge work for domestic workers and no issues with lifes lost or captured people.

True that there may not be greter flxibility of a/cs but nice to have faster attacks using Missiles which we have. I do not agree that Agni use is an escalation. Such western concepts on escalation need not be accepted by us. We use whatever weapons we can and have.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 25 May 2014 00:21

srin wrote:No - it won't bankrupt India. But it will eat a big chunk of the budget, making money unavailable for other projects - submarines - or our own R&D.

Which gets back to what I've said all along, it was a mistake to ignore cost in the MRCA.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 May 2014 02:16

Dhananjay wrote: I think it was Maitya ji who had pointed out that composites made either by rus or Bharat are very primitive compared to Rafale.

Karan M wrote:Don't know what he said, but India & Russia continue to evolve & it would a blanket statement to say we are primitive etc.With FGFA and LCA, both countries will continue to improve further and further.

Sorry Karan I apologies these were not Maitya ji's words, I conveyed it in my words. Here I quote him:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... s#p1630876

maitya wrote:For example, if we are to insist (in the RFP), say, that the X-band TR modules are to indigenously produced in a foundry in India (while making a few other radar components like RCs importable) and that the radar will have to be final assembled by an Indian entity, and the RFP respondent would still have to guarantee the overall radar xhrs MTBF – various factors need to be considered.

First and foremost - Do we have the required parallel capability (i.e do we regularly produce X-band or even S-band TR modules) to ask for this? If yes, how much dependency of that is on imported (GaAs) foundries? Do we have required design level understanding of the existing TR modules being indigenously produced, so that we can tweak/adjust it graduate to those that are required for the particular platform in question?

Also stuff like do we produce raw materials for an equivalent TR module – if yes, how much of the material design is understood by us etc.

OR
Is it that we don’t have the capability to produce any >1 GHz TR modules in India – and we are looking at acquiring that capability via this program?
Etc etc etc

The answer to the above questions can be and will be vastly different from country to country – and the cost of acquiring it (so the price as well) would be vastly different.

Ditto with another possible example with Composite aeronautical structures – thanks our local program (LCA) we have a substantial capability to produce panels from raw materials. But guess what, the composite body panels of Rafale are a gen apart.
How the cost/price of manufacturing the composites structures should then be calculated? And moreover, are we aware of the Brazilian capability of mil aeronautical-grade composite design/manufacturing/engineering capabilities well enough to be able to extrapolate the cost/price of that aspect of the ToT cost?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 May 2014 08:03

I think @Austin has made a very valid point. The High cost comes from the in depth TOT demands. I also foresee substantial details with this sort of set up (High TOT contracts, and then subsequent setting up of capability)

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 May 2014 09:08

Cain Marko wrote:Only problem with MKI is that it will make IAF inventory too top heavy, which as it is, it has to struggle with. They need a bird that can do deep strike and turn around and provide QRA + point defense if needed. Hence something that is smaller - Rafalesque.

What is the problem with it the IAF being top-heavy? Cost obviously. But when we're buying the Rafale for a staggering cost, the rationale for a medium fighter evaporates.

For QRA + point defence, the Tejas more than suffices. Data-linked with the Sukhois and AEW&C aircraft... it excels. If the Gripen was 'heavy' enough to be one of the original entrants in the MMRCA competition (along with the F-16 & Mirage 2000), why not the Tejas?

As far as deep strike is concerned, the Rafale with its 'discrete philosophy' (as opposed to a genuine VLO airframe) isn't too well suited for the task, especially against a foe as formidable as the PLAAF. And secondly, we already have a program to acquire a fifth generation aircraft to do all that and more. No point in paying premium for the Rafale.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 May 2014 09:41

Dhananjay wrote:So what'll happen to the machinery once all the 189 Rafale's are built? It'll lie there gathering dust, or sold back to france? It'll all become useless?

By and large, it'll be disposed off. They might mothball some of it for possible re-use in a Rafale upgrade.

I think it was Maitya ji who had pointed out that composites made either by rus or Bharat are very primitive compared to Rafale.

From the quote you've posted - he said that the Rafale's composites are a generation ahead, which is NOT the same thing as saying Indian tech is 'primitive'.

Assuming that this statement generational gap is accurate, question is... so what? We can't use the Rafale's composites in the Tejas, its too far along for that to be feasible. And the AMCA is at least a decade into the future... more than sufficient time for HAL to bridge any current technological gap.

So what just what do we do with Rafale sourced composite technology? But if invest this same capital in domestic resources, the payoff will be huge.

Its absurd really - on one hand we have France who often shies away from co-development with Europe let alone the US imports, because it puts a priority on retaining competencies in crucial military aviation technologies, and on the other hand we have India who's eager to sponsor/reimburse other countries for their tech development (Russia & France).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2014 09:43

New defence minister to watch Rafale jets in action

Within days of taking over, India’s new defence minister will get a first hand opportunity to see live action from French fighter jets Rafale, selected by the UPA-II government as the preferred platform for Indian Air Force’s 126 fighter jet deal.

More than two years ago, the government selected Rafale and started the price negotiation process. Initially valued at $10.4 billion (Rs 42,000 crore), the fighter deal may rise to as high as $20 billion at the time of the commercial contract.

The outgoing defence minister A K Antony, however, recently hinted at the government having a relook at the “life cycle cost” offered by the French company Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale.

As the IAF awaits a decision on the 126 medium multirole combat aircraft, four Rafale jets of French Air Force will be in Jodhpur between June 2-13 to participate in Garuda exercise between the two air forces. There will also be a KC-135 tanker from the French side.

The IAF participation will involve four Su-30 MKI, four MiG-21 Bison and four MiG-27 upgrades, said an IAF officer. The last Garuda exercise happened at Istres in France in 2010.

While the Air Force is likely to invite the new defence minister to visit Jodhpur, the delay in procuring 126 fighter will figure in the presentation, which IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha is likely to give to the new Prime Minister and Defence Minister.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2014 09:46

Duels between MKI and Bison versus Rafale would be most interesting to watch specially BFM for the kicks

Should also give IAF a good sneek peek how Rafale would interoperate with other fleet of the IAF , Turn Around time , Sortie Rate and many big small nitty gritty that goes to keep operationalising Rafale in IAF

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 May 2014 10:13

Austin wrote:Su-30MKI or Mig-29 UPG or M2K , Jags are no substitute for MMRCA deal.

The growing shortage of Squadron and far worse the operational availability is at a very critical juncture and it will get worse as years go by.

Our squadron shortage is certainly in a critical state. But so is our financial situation. Every bit extra spent on the Rafale means that much less spent on AWACS or refuelers, or on frigates or aerial maritime patrol, or the infantry or mech forces.

Most of the Upgrade Program of 29 , M2K , Jags etc and MKI/LCA program will not be able to replace operational numbers at best they can get some technological leverage and that too will come with time not to mention developing operational tactics , maintenance ,spares support for new capability achieved that too takes time.

The MMRCA program will not deliver quick numbers either except for the single squadron delivered directly by Dassault. The production will start spooling up only by 2020, which is when most other countries/AFs will be winding down (or would have closed down) production lines for 4.5G aircraft. Including China.

If you speak to any senior IAF personal they would tell you how dead critical MMRCA deal is to maintain and restore operational capability with right numbers this decade which is today at very critical juncture not withstanding MKI.

I have. And they do. But unfortunately they also seemed unaware of what the aircraft is going to cost. Or for that matter what the Tejas costs.

Even the DRDO's ERJ-145 AEW&C costs less. We could actually buy 40 of them and have money left over to buy 250 Tejas in the same $15 billion budget (and lets see how that figure pans out).

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 May 2014 11:04

The MMRCA program will not deliver quick numbers either except for the single squadron delivered directly by Dassault. The production will start spooling up only by 2020, which is when most other countries/AFs will be winding down (or would have closed down) production lines for 4.5G aircraft. Including China.

The timelines although bad from the squadron strength point of view are fairly ok from a 4.5 gen point of view. If a hasty induction is to be had, lets double or triple the french produced jets. That would take care of that. Their production goes at 12 or 15 per annum and I am fairly certain that they will offload all of it for a few years for the IAF order. The cost on the other hand is another matter. Its outrageous even with TOT and what not. We have Su-30MKI in production, and plan a robust expansion of its capability. We have the LCA MK2 in development with assured production. We all like to claim it as a 4.5 gen jet as opposed to a 4th gen jet. We have a dedicated 4th+ gen LCA in production. We plan to build the FGFA a dedicated 5th gen jet at home along with the AMCA. Why are we so hell bound on acquiring production rights (at an outrageous cost) for yet another 4.5 gen jet? Will the FGFA tech transfer not be superior to that of the rafale which is half a generation behind it? (After all we are "development-partners" on the PAKFA). 15 Billion for 126 jets comes to approximately the same amount Khan would have paid for acquiring 120-140 F-22's instead of 60 it did in the last production batch. Its an outrageous price to pay. The common argument that lets not "put all our eggs in the russian basket" means little. Are we not producing the MKI at home? The increased investment in the LCA and the LCA MKii line is also another hedge against problems with russian tech or supply chain. A proper investment that doubles the numbers acquired of the LCA between 2015 and 2025 should do well for the "squadron strength numbers", if we can't manage that then what sort of expectations should we have of other home grown products? The LCA is an indigenous effort and as such we have 100% control over it, doing that should not be out of reach.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 25 May 2014 13:20

Guys chill out ... there will be no mega deal done during first 2 years of NaMo in office as there are many medium priority projects stuck for years which require urgent funding or push. So expect many smaller but day to day problems of three services getting solved.

Exceptional case: if due to high threat perception or operational requirements there is a very REAL requirement, there will be extra one off funding only if could we get equipment quicker with flexibility of local build or direct import ...

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 May 2014 16:09

Well he better make a decision quick, either sign the rafale or develop a key path towards an indigenous alternative to acquire the squadron strength.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 25 May 2014 19:09

Sirji ... what I can say, it is not a binary equation. Every decision has multiple implications, the aims is to get more done within budget and time. If the decisions are correct or not, only future will tell us.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2014 19:28

Rafale deal will be signed in 2014 FY i.e before March most of the negotiations is done with specially with HAL on the issue of TOT/Lic Manuf the only thing remaining is to translate that into document and final nitty gritty ....Rafale deal will be very unique in TOT much beyond MKI deal as India wants maximum autonomy as possible with Rafale which does not mean we can do away from Dassault but it would reduce the dependence over time.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 May 2014 19:34

will be signed in 2014 FY i.e before March

As in March 2015?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2014 20:01

FY in India starts from April and ends in March .....so the deal is proposed to signed by Dec 14 but before March 2015 , depends on the new Gov ability to quickly move things.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 May 2014 21:29

if my feelers are right, all deals will be re-view-ed again! and re-hashed on a fast track process. what benefits home growing will be prioritized further up.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 02 Jun 2014 08:33

French Rafales Arrive in India for Joint Exercise

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 03 Jun 2014 03:03

And the Tamasha starts over. Here is the JOKE

India signs up for Rafale and kisses good bye all home grown capability to build Aircrafts in future (no money left)
OR
India does not sign up for Rafale, France loses capability to build next generation fighters (and Rafale dies)

So will India or France win this game of thrones? Will the adolescent naive Indian lad fall for the dressed up old cougar 'Rafale'?

Turning out to be better than any late night television show isn't it?

Good test for Modi - Is he any different than the degenerate Gandhi clan? Are all politicians made up of the same stuff? Curtains will rise soon on India's most promising hope.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 03 Jun 2014 03:45

The 100% FDI on defense should reduce the cost of Rafales substantially since the offsets won't be that critical any more. Dassault could break down the Rafale parts list and enter into joint ventures with Indian companies at 49%-75% for most components and assembly but then decide to do the more critical IP parts at 100% Dassault owned but Indian staffed plants in India. Could be a win-win all around if it works.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 03 Jun 2014 04:05

Victor wrote:The 100% FDI on defense should reduce the cost of Rafales substantially since the offsets won't be that critical any more. Dassault could break down the Rafale parts list and enter into joint ventures with Indian companies at 49%-75% for most components and assembly but then decide to do the more critical IP parts at 100% Dassault owned but Indian staffed plants in India. Could be a win-win all around if it works.

On paper that might work. Suspect it would be more like SU-30MKIs costing more to assemble in India than imported from Russia.

There will be ever so many French supervisors and their requirements. Here's the clincher: once IAF selects the Rafale, even with 100% FDI in local manufacture, the unit price will not be less, it will be more accounting for the capital investment and operating costs of Dassault-owned Indian subs.

The 100% FDI has other interesting possibilities but the Rafale not so much.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Jun 2014 04:47

MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected to be wrapped up in 3 months

NEW DELHI: India is closer to finally sealing the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multirole combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters, which IAF has identified as a top-priority for the Narendra Modi government.

Defence ministry sources said the final commercial negotiations for the MMRCA project, which IAF considers "critical" to retain its air combat edge against Pakistan and maintain "dissuasive deterrence" against China, can now "be wrapped up in the next three months".

In the backdrop of IAF making do with just 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha called on PM Modi on Monday, barely a few days after he briefed finance and defence minister Arun Jaitley. On Tuesday, the IAF chief will again make "a detailed presentation" to Jaitley on the operational preparedness and different modernization projects of his force.

The worry is that the final negotiations with French aviation major Dassault for the MMRCA project have proceeded at a slow pace since Rafale was "down-selected" over its rivals in January 2012.

Sources, however, said the work of three subcommittees dealing with technical maintenance (IAF will fly the fighters for 40 years), offsets (Dassault will have to plough back 50% of the contract value back into India) and transfer of technology (ToT) has now been completed.

Under the MMRCA project, the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition", while Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is to manufacture 108 fighters in India over six years. In fact, after months of wrangling, Dassault and HAL could finalize the work-share agreement only in February this year, under which the defence PSU will now have a 70% role.

"With offsets, work-share, warranty, liquidity damages and other issues resolved, the CNC (contract negotiation committee) now has to settle the final costs before the draft contract can be readied for the government's final approval," said a source.

If the MMRCA project is inked in the next few months, the first 18 jets will come to India from mid-2016 onwards. The jets built by HAL, in turn, are expected to begin rolling out from 2018 onwards. HAL will initially deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later.

When the MMRCA selection process was initiated by MoD in mid-2007, the overall project cost was pegged at Rs 42,000 crore or $10.4 billion for 126 fighters. But with inflation being factored in, it could zoom upwards of the $20 billion mark by the time it's completed.

Mother of all defence deals:

* August 2007: MMRCA global tender floated after long delay

* April 2011: American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper', Swedish Gripen and Russian MiG-35 fighters ejected after extensive field trials

* November 2011: Commercial bids of Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS) and French Rafale (Dassault) opened

* January 2012: Rafale declared winner (lowest bidder) on both unit cost as well as "life-cycle costs" (cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jun 2014 06:56

What Brar has said was a Q asked about 3+ years ago,by a Russian diplomat (ambassador?).Do we want to spend an awful lot of money on 4++ tech,or use it instead for 5th-gen tech and a 5th-gen aircraft? The complication has been the tardy progress on LCA series production,which is about to give birth.It still hasn't arrived,impinging upon the IAF's current strength and capability.Therefore,as ACM Browne said last year,"we have no plan B",plus the IAF's continuing lust after a firang bird,is seeing it display a "bunker mentality","Raffy or bust" attitude. The hint that the deal will be wrapped up within 3 months in my opinion may be too hasty."Fools rush in were angels fear to tread".The new dispensation should review the entire future force projection of the IAF,its perspective plans in the light of current and future threats which are in a constant state of flux.The costs of acquiring the Raffy are massive and will certainly impact upon other programmes and the two other services which are also crying out for arty,subs,ASW helos,etc.$15B can be used in many other effective ways to sustain the IAF's capability,both quality and numbers.
The '65 and '71 air wars with Pak were fought by the IAF and won using aircraft that were supposedly inferior to Pak's western/US birds.It was a rude shock to them and to western manufacturers.The GOI should demand from the IAF a Plan "B","C',whatever before taking a final decision on the Raffy,numbers,TOT,etc.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Jun 2014 07:04

Let us not assign that much intelligence to a Russian diplomat. Three years ago, I am sure, he had, in the absence of a LCA, dreams about a new revenue stream for Russia. Perhaps it is time to tell people like him to buy some LCAs and donate them to other nations - like India is doing for A'stan. Can start another line for that sole purpose.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2014 09:09

VinodTK wrote:MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected to be wrapped up in 3 months

Good News , The deadline for the deal is November this year and worst case before end of FY.

This should be the first deal Modi gov should be done with followed by A-330 Tanker Deal.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Jun 2014 19:26

If the MMRCA project is inked in the next few months, the first 18 jets will come to India from mid-2016 onwards. The jets built by HAL, in turn, are expected to begin rolling out from 2018 onwards. HAL will initially deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later.

After all the hoopla about how the sky would come down if this deal isn't sanctioned immediately... just how many deliveries will the IAF be taking before 2020? Just two piddly squadrons.

As a result when the Chinese will be closing down J-10/J-11 production and switching to 5th gen types, our Rafale line will finally be up and running.

God help us.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Jun 2014 19:35

Austin wrote:This should be the first deal Modi gov should be done with followed by A-330 Tanker Deal.

With $2.5-3 billion paid upfront to Dassault, can we afford to pay for the A330 afterwards? Especially given the still precarious state of our finances.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Jun 2014 19:39

If we are signing up for Raf, then put PAKFA in cold storage.. perhaps look at multi-lateral world decision after Putin's handling of Ukaraine crisis. Just to show the world we care, as Obama's politics failed towards that area.
Reason may be many, but we have to take some political stand.

Raf is very expensive.. we need to work on AMCA!!! period.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2014 20:11

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:This should be the first deal Modi gov should be done with followed by A-330 Tanker Deal.
With $2.5-3 billion paid upfront to Dassault, can we afford to pay for the A330 afterwards? Especially given the still precarious state of our finances.

Yes the Government can always provide funding outside budget , It depends how critical the requirement is. Depends also on the upfront Rafale & Tanker deal needs.

Since these deals are priority for IAF the government will have to make a choice.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2014 20:21

SaiK wrote:If we are signing up for Raf, then put PAKFA in cold storage.. perhaps look at multi-lateral world decision after Putin's handling of Ukaraine crisis. Just to show the world we care, as Obama's politics failed towards that area.
Reason may be many, but we have to take some political stand.

What kind of political stand should India take and why ?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Jun 2014 20:30

Austin wrote:
Viv S wrote:With $2.5-3 billion paid upfront to Dassault, can we afford to pay for the A330 afterwards? Especially given the still precarious state of our finances.
Yes the Government can always provide funding outside budget , It depends how critical the requirement is. Depends also on the upfront Rafale & Tanker deal needs.

Since these deals are priority for IAF the government will have to make a choice.

Everyone is short of funding. If the govt has to fund it outside of the budget, it'll have to come from somewhere.. roads, power, railways? Alternatively, the govt could be 'flexible' on the fiscal deficit targets and settle for higher inflation. A hard decision when we're heading for a below-average monsoon.

The question of how criticality is indeed important. How much of a difference can two squadrons by 2020 (possibly less) really make.

Its a damning indictment of the state of our management that the MoD/GoI is hugely disconnected from the technical aspect and the IAF is hugely disconnected from the financial aspect.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2014 20:55

Lets leave that to MOD/GOI , you and me can have endless discussion but finally GOI takes the call on all Defence Matters

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 03 Jun 2014 21:05

And how many squadrons of PAK-FA/FGFA would be around and when. These deals have been long pending as also their costing would be spread through years even decades. Later on costs can be saved by extending life span by reducing flight hours and having other options ie AMCA, UAVs, etc thereby focusing on fewer areas. These planes Tejas/Raffy/SukhoiMKI/ (and later on FGFA/AMCA) are much better integrated in our own industry too.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 03 Jun 2014 22:37

Perhaps there are other deals tied with this order which we don't know about.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 03 Jun 2014 23:17

Viv S wrote:The question of how criticality is indeed important. How much of a difference can two squadrons by 2020 (possibly less) really make.

Two squadrons of real 4+ gen plane is much much better than the paper planes (at least for now ), like all the 5th gen paper planes in terms of FGFA/AMCA . Even we don't have a prototype of the Tejas Mk.2 rolled out till now.

Viv S wrote:Its a damning indictment of the state of our management that the MoD/GoI is hugely disconnected from the technical aspect and the IAF is hugely disconnected from the financial aspect.

Why ? Just because it is assumed that US will give us F-35 with TOT etc for a price which is less than Rafale. Australia gets 72 F-35 for $12.5 billion with probably cost of associated facilities, weapons and training. I am not sure if any TOT is involved here.
And BTW the MMRCA deal was always considered as a very big deal just because of all the life cycle cost, TOT etc [3 subcommittees to discuss - technical maintenance, offsets and transfer of technology ] and it should not be considered as just off the shelf purchase of some fancy fighter aircraft.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jun 2014 00:13

The Russian in Q was part of the FGFA team who also said that we were dithering on what we wanted to do with our part of the co-share work.It is obvious now that HAL's inability to deliver (it can't even perfect an IJT,and it had handed over FGFA work to the very same IJT team!) the goods that has led us to reduce our share of the JV.So if we want the FGFA from now on,it will be more of buying the T-50 in much the same way that we bought the MKI,with some minor tweaks."Opportunity knocks but once".

The LCA's birth pangs-the baby has been for so long in "confinement",with the definitive MK-2 still about 4-5 years away,is why the IAF is so desperate about the Rafale."A bird in the bush is worth two in the hand". If the defence budget is raised,then the Raffy will make the cut,but there could be a cut in the final numbers.120 may be the max.Just as US allies are cutting down on JSF numbers,the US too,so too will we have to review the situ once the 120 are almost home.By then,a $30-35M+ MK-2,at least half the price might look like a very attractive desi alternative,with the 270+ MKIs/Super Sukhois already operational,plus the FGFA perhaps about to enter service.As far as the entire evaluation process goes,the Rafale has won fair and square.Plan "B"s or "C"s might require another round of byzantine bargaining,taking even more time.Nevertheless,the GOI must review the entire IAF's future force plans and modify them if required. With so many demands for economic growth ,etc.,the primary task of the new dispensation has clearly been spelt out as revitalising the economy.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Jun 2014 00:18

dhiraj wrote:Two squadrons of real 4+ gen plane is much much better than the paper planes (at least for now ), like all the 5th gen paper planes in terms of FGFA/AMCA . Even we don't have a prototype of the Tejas Mk.2 rolled out till now.

The Tejas Mk2 is a paper plane albeit based on a very real Mk1. Everything is very tangible as well including the F-35 and the PAK FA.

Why ? Just because it is assumed that US will give us F-35 with TOT etc for a price which is less than Rafale. Australia gets 72 F-35 for $12.5 billion with probably cost of associated facilities, weapons and training. I am not sure if any TOT is involved here.

The RAAF procurement includes base refurbishment and weapons costs. Head to head, the F-35 will match the Rafale on acquisition cost.

No you won't get ToT with the F-35. And frankly the billions spent on ToT will be far more productive if invested directly in the Tejas Mk2 & AMCA program.

And BTW the MMRCA deal was always considered as a very big deal just because of all the life cycle cost, TOT etc [3 subcommittees to discuss - technical maintenance, offsets and transfer of technology ] and it should not be considered as just off the shelf purchase of some fancy fighter aircraft.

Doesn't change the fact that we'll be inducting Rafales while the Chinese are inducting J-20s and J-31s (probably at lower unit costs).