Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[RajeshA]

Journal: Molecular Biology and Evolution (2012)
First published online: August 25, 2012

The timing of pigmentation lightening in Europeans
Authors: Sandra Belezal¹, António Múrias dos Santos²+³, Brian McEvoy⁴, Isabel Alves¹, Cláudia Martinho¹, Emily Cameron⁵, Mark D. Shriver⁶, Esteban J. Parra⁵ and Jorge Rocha¹+²+³

¹ IPATIMUP, Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto, Porto, Portugal
² CIBIO, Centro de Investigação em Biodiversidade e Recursos Genéticos da Universidade do Porto, Vairão, Portugal
³ Departamento de Biologia, Faculdade de Ciências da Universidade do Porto, Porto, Portugal
⁴ Department of Statistical Genetics, Queensland Institute of Medical Research, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
⁵ Department of Anthropology, University of Toronto at Mississauga, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
⁶ Department of Anthropology, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania, United States of America

Abstract
The inverse correlation between skin pigmentation and latitude observed in human populations is thought to have been shaped by selective pressures favoring lighter skin in order to facilitate vitamin D synthesis in regions far from the equator. Several candidate genes for skin pigmentation have been shown to exhibit patterns of polymorphism that overlap the geospatial variation in skin color. However, little work has focused on estimating the timeframe over which skin pigmentation has changed and on the intensity of selection acting on different pigmentation genes. To provide a temporal framework for the evolution of lighter pigmentation, we used forward Monte Carlo simulations coupled with a rejection sampling algorithm to estimate the time of onset of selective sweeps and selection coefficients at four genes associated with this trait in Europeans: KITLG, TYRP1, SLC24A5, and SLC45A2. Using compound haplotype systems consisting of rapidly evolving microsatellites linked to one SNP in each gene, we estimate that the onset of the sweep shared by Europeans and East Asians at KITLG occurred about 30,000 years ago, after the out-of-Africa migration, while the selective sweeps for the European-specific alleles at TYRP1, SLC24A5, and SLC45A2 started much later, within the last 11,000-19,000 years, well after the first migrations of modern humans into Europe. We suggest that these patterns were influenced by recent increases in size of human populations, which favored the accumulation of advantageous variants at different loci.


Journal: Human Molecular Genetics (2006) 15 (suppl 2): R176-R181.

The genetic architecture of normal variation in human pigmentation: an evolutionary perspective and model [Full]
Authors: Brian McEvoy¹, Sandra Beleza² and Mark D. Shriver³

¹ Smurfit Institute of Genetics, Trinity College Dublin, Dublin 2, Ireland,
² IPATIMUP, Porto, Portugal and
³ Department of Anthropology, The Pennsylvania State University, PA, USA

Abstract
Skin pigmentation varies substantially across human populations in a manner largely coincident with ultraviolet radiation intensity. This observation suggests that natural selection in response to sunlight is a major force in accounting for pigmentation variability. We review recent progress in identifying the genes controlling this variation with a particular focus on the trait's evolutionary past and the potential role of testing for signatures of selection in aiding the discovery of functionally important genes. We have analyzed SNP data from the International HapMap project in 77 pigmentation candidate genes for such signatures. On the basis of these results and other similar work, we provide a tentative three-population model (West Africa, East Asia and North Europe) of the evolutionary–genetic architecture of human pigmentation. These results suggest a complex evolutionary history, with selection acting on different gene targets at different times and places in the human past. Some candidate genes may have been selected in the ancestral human population, others in the ‘out of Africa’ proto European-Asian population, whereas most appear to have selectively evolved solely in either Europeans or East Asians separately despite the pigmentation similarities between these two populations. Selection signatures can provide important clues to aid gene discovery. However, these should be viewed as complements, rather than replacements of, functional studies including linkage and association analyses, which can directly refine our understanding of the trait.

[Nilesh Oak]

[pigmentation, we used forward Monte Carlo simulations coupled with a rejection sampling algorithm to estimate the time of onset of selective sweeps and selection coefficients at four genes associated with this trait in Europeans: KITLG, TYRP1, SLC24A5, and SLC45A2. Using compound haplotype systems consisting of rapidly evolving microsatellites linked to one SNP in each gene, we estimate that the onset of the sweep shared by Europeans and East Asians at KITLG occurred about 30,000 years ago, after the out-of-Africa migration, while the selective sweeps for the European-specific alleles at TYRP1, SLC24A5, and SLC45A2 started much later, within the last 11,000-19,000 years, well after the first migrations of modern humans into Europe. We suggest that these patterns were influenced by recent increases in size of human populations, which favored the accumulation of advantageous variants at different loci.[/i]

simulation for timing, based on rates of mutations.etc. simulation..still..

Not only 11k-19K timeline is interesting but also 30K timeline for sharing of KITLG.

So let's not be confused by common myths of 'Canis Major/Canis Minor - Shwan, but also Saptarshis (7 rikshas - sages but also bears) across from East Asia - India - europe to North America and also Mexico.

[Murugan]

Rajeshji

I am of the opinion that we should try to find the antiquity of veds and with various methods including that of ASTRAL TRAVEL type.

Murugan ji,

Please let us know if you find something!

Did people understand/believe the Astral Travel thing?

If we would have kept the vedic tradition alive and assertively placed our points across the table , to aaj ye antiquity prove karne ki nobat nahi aati, we need not prove the antiquity of something that is not for untrained/uninitated mind.

And vedas would not been wantonly quoted and misused by anarya people. That doniker lady wantonly write in every preface "Rigveda 900-1200 BC" and i feel helpless.

The need of the time is to educate people about true 'nature' of veds and its timeless, shashwatness, why the veds are called anaadi and apaurushey. There will be no need to prove any kind of antiquity, the worthlessness of finding antiquity from vedas will set on people's mind. Directionless and meaningless translation of vedas will stop.

Proving antiquity through vedas by both the parties is turning futile. We say at least 26000 years and anarya historians laugh, when they say 900-1200 BC we laugh and cry and try to prove that this is not true. We again try to prove the antiquity and the dates go further back and they say 900-1200 BC. We have become toys in the hands of anarya people. And in this whole exercise we are spending so much of time that very few remains there to study vedas sincerely iirc.

[RajeshA]

AIT-Nazi Book

Quoted by Stephen Knapp



Publication Date: 1925
Author: Laurence Austine Waddell
Indosumerian Seals Deciphered discovering Sumerians of Indus Valley as Phoenicians, Barats, Goths & famous Vedic Aryans 3100-2300 B.C. [Amazon]




Publication Date: 1927
Author: Laurence Austine Waddell
A Sumer Aryan Dictionary: An Etymological Lexicon of the English and other Aryan Languages Ancient and Modern and the Sumerian Origin of Egyptian and its Hieroglyphs [Amazon]




Publication Date: 1899
Author: Laurence Austine Waddell
Among the Himalayas (Downloadable)

Claims the Sumerians were the Indo-Aryans who gave us civilization! However he does draw parallels between Sumerians and Harappans and hence can be interesting.

[Murugan]

Claims the Sumerians were the Indo-Aryans who gave us civilization!

We are for a ride!

High-time for a pro-active approach simultaneously for building up and make these jokers insignificant

[shiv]

Proving antiquity through vedas by both the parties is turning futile. We say at least 26000 years and anarya historians laugh, when they say 900-1200 BC we laugh and cry and try to prove that this is not true. We again try to prove the antiquity and the dates go further back and they say 900-1200 BC. We have become toys in the hands of anarya people. And in this whole exercise we are spending so much of time that very few remains there to study vedas sincerely iirc.

Nothing needs to be proved about the Vedas. Certainly not their antiquity. All that is needed is a demonstration of the bullshitting that has taken place to push a particular theory. The ludicrousness of what has been done is mind boggling and the fact that it has been pulled off shows how stupid people are. Including most Indians.

Rig veda has no date. So they put date on it. Pontic Stepe has no language, so they put father of Rig Veda there

It is stupid to sit and argue about the Rig Veda - we could have a separate thread about the Rig veda.The linguistic con job has nothing to do with dating the Rig Veda. It has everything to do with dating early Sanskrit. Rig Veda is a condom to use for that.

[RajeshA]

Proving antiquity through vedas by both the parties is turning futile. We say at least 26000 years and anarya historians laugh, when they say 900-1200 BC we laugh and cry and try to prove that this is not true. We again try to prove the antiquity and the dates go further back and they say 900-1200 BC. We have become toys in the hands of anarya people. And in this whole exercise we are spending so much of time that very few remains there to study vedas sincerely iirc.

Basically if we can nail down Mahabharata and Ramayana and fill in the blanks using Puranas, etc. and all show great antiquity, then that antiquity would put us ages before the Europeans. Then actually it doesn't really matter when the Rig Veda or the other Vedas were written!

If you have Ramayana touching the 10,000 BCE mark and it is well-grounded in the timeline, and we have some dates about our time-keeping which go even before that, then the Vedas need no date, because enough of our history is well-grounded and it is not susceptible to Western or any other manipulations!

[Murugan]

Shiv-gaaru

We (our historians) take shelter of vedas to prove antiquity of 'aryans' in India, and the anaryas also quote for absence of horse and spoked chariot to proved that aryans were from steppe. Have not we discussed this till this page? Every 5 pages bring that argument of chariot and horses with reference to vedas and we go finding graves of horses to surkotada and bhimbetka.

[shiv]

At some stage I think we on BRF have to stop complaining about what "they" are doing, come to grip with facts and take the battle to the other side.

Horses have been demonstrated in India 2000 BC and wheeled wagons from 2400 BC. The idea that horses and wagons came from Pontic steppes to India by 1200 BC and then Sanskrit came into being is a bluff. That bluff is being perpetuated by a buch of cocky buggers who say "Hey I know Sanskrit and Rig veda and you know nothing so shut your trap" And we Indians are slavish enough to actually believe that crap and tart howling about Rig veda. The Rig Veda has horses mentioned. But it has no buried chariots in graves. Horse evidence exists in India from 2000 BC and wagons from 2300 BC. That should itself tell you that the horse and chariot coming from Pondy steppe to get mentioned in Rig Veda 1200 BC is a lie. How far are we going to keep on lamenting this lie? How long do you want to keep protecting the friggin Rig veda because you are stupid enough to believe it needs protection.

You are on the defensive because you don't know more than one and a half words in Sanskrit, you can't differentiate Rig Veda from Kama Sutra but yet you feel great love and believe that you must be inferior to the supercilious moron who tells you he knows enough Sanskrit to tell you about the Veda. And this guy says Sanskrit came from Pontic Steppe so you fall for it and lament miserably.

We are behaving like Pakis in front of Mullahs. We need to get out of this defensive mindset. Stop defending the Rig veda and stop trying to dig out things the Rig veda did for you and for the world. If you are interested, learn to recite the Rig Veda whether you know the meaning or not. Chances are you wil be more enlightend than a moron who thinks he is singing PIE horse meat cooking dirge from Pontic steppe.

[Murugan]

Proving antiquity through vedas by both the parties is turning futile. We say at least 26000 years and anarya historians laugh, when they say 900-1200 BC we laugh and cry and try to prove that this is not true. We again try to prove the antiquity and the dates go further back and they say 900-1200 BC. We have become toys in the hands of anarya people. And in this whole exercise we are spending so much of time that very few remains there to study vedas sincerely iirc.

Basically if we can nail down Mahabharata and Ramayana and fill in the blanks using Puranas, etc. and all show great antiquity, then that antiquity would put us ages before the Europeans. Then actually it doesn't really matter when the Rig Veda or the other Vedas were written!

If you have Ramayana touching the 10,000 BCE mark and it is well-grounded in the timeline, and we have some dates about our time-keeping which go even before that, then the Vedas need no date, because enough of our history is well-grounded and it is not susceptible to Western or any other manipulations!

Yes. We have more indicators, which can be further explored for antiquity - Dwarka, Khambhat (gulf of cambay) and Bay of Bengal submerged ruins. We need more from these sites.

[shiv]

Shiv-gaaru

We (our historians) take shelter of vedas to prove antiquity of 'aryans' in India, and the anaryas also quote for absence of horse and spoked chariot to proved that aryans were from steppe. Have not we discussed this till this page? Every 5 pages bring that argument of chariot and horses with reference to vedas and we go finding graves of horses to surkotada and bhimbetka.

For us English speaking Macaulayites - anyone who comes and quotes Veda or speaks Sanskrit makes us feel inferior so we go overboard trying to protect its virginity and antiquity - neither of which need our assistance. This is where Witzel manages to push an ungli up our backsides and cause us pain. The people who protect the Rig Veda are those who learn to recite. The rest are pretenders.

[Murugan]

We are behaving like Pakis in front of Mullahs. We need to get out of this defensive mindset. Stop defending the Rig veda and stop trying to dig out things the Rig veda did for you and for the world. If you are interested, learn to recite the Rig Veda whether you know the meaning or not. Chances are you wil be more enlightend than a moron who thinks he is singing PIE horse meat cooking dirge from Pontic steppe.

The people who protect the Rig Veda are those who learn to recite. The rest are pretenders.

I could not tell this properly. You said It.

[Nilesh Oak]

Claims the Sumerians were the Indo-Aryans who gave us civilization! However he does draw parallels between Sumerians and Harappans and hence can be interesting.

Sumerians have mysterious origin (per western studies) aka....they are clueless about Sumerian origin, other than the strong notion that is found among Sumerian evidence (?) that they (sumerians) came from the EAST.

[ramana]

So Sumerians also could be Harappa migrants? That could account for the style of beard etc.....

[SaiK]

Within the past fifteen years, archaeological revelations from the African Middle Stone Age have transformed our picture of the timing of symbolic culture’s emergence.[3] Until the early nineties, the prevailing view of the ‘human revolution’ was notably Eurocentric, focused on the Upper Palaeolithic Revolution as humanity’s ‘Great Leap Forward’. Recent discoveries from Africa have at least doubled the time-depth of acknowledged and accepted evidence of symbolic activity. This has left us with four main positions concerning the timeline for symbolic culture’s emergence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_ ... origins%29

http://www.radicalanthropologygroup.org ... mbCult.pdf
Humans
during the course of evolution established such ‘we’-intentionality. Linguistic rules
and symbols – complex elaborations on the simple theme of pointing – are in
Tomasello’s view culturally inherited patterns which evolved and became
transmitted from the moment when this development occurred. As to why it
occurred, Tomasello offers no evolutionary explanation, remarking with refreshing
candour ‘I really have no idea’ (Tomasello 2003, pp. 108-09).

[JE Menon]

>>Stirrups are not necessary - but needed for such warfare to be effective. Without them, the kind of balance needed to either hurl a spear or keep a bow steady is not possible.

I am quite sure this is innacurate, especially the bolded part. Why? I was in an area about 30 km from Budapest for the past week called Tahitotfalu , and I happened to see a cultural show (aimed mainly at preservation of ancient traditions) where this is exactly what was demonstrated, i.e. riding without stirrups or saddles, and throwing a spear and shooting an arrow quite accurately (not bulls eye shots or anything) but good enough to hit a human body.

Now why is this curious? Poor chaps, the Hungarians are facing a problem rather similar to ours

http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin1.htm

Check this out: "It is usually stated that the Uralic Magyars moved into Hungary from an eastern source in the 9th Century A.D. I find instead that all the other Uralic speakers expanded out of Hungary in the opposite direction, and at a much earlier date."

[Prem]

Now why is this curious? Poor chaps, the Hungarians are facing a problem rather similar to ours
http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics ... 1.htmCheck this out: "It is usually stated that the Uralic Magyars moved into Hungary from an eastern source in the 9th Century A.D. I find instead that all the other Uralic speakers expanded out of Hungary in the opposite direction, and at a much earlier date."

From the link
"eagle represents the letter A. In Reading Egyptian Art, by Richard H. Wilkinson, we find that the meaning of the arm is ka, i.e. kar, or plural karok (arms) in Hungarian. A hand with closed fingers could have several meanings"

Kar means hand/s in Sanskrit, exact same meaning.

[SaiK]

So Sumerians also could be Harappa migrants? That could account for the style of beard etc.....

and to harappa from..

http://hindu.com/2001/08/13/stories/1313046c.htm
``The script found in a cave, away from the temple, resemble Indus script,'' according to Dr. R. Madhivanan, Chief Editor of Tamil Etymological Projects, another member of the team.


The rock paintings were in red ochre and white ochre. Another place in the district was Iduhatti, where symbols, representing matured phase of the Harappan era, were found, says Dr. Madhivanan.

``But, in our own State, there are about 100 rock art sites such as Perumukkal,'' Dr. Kannan says.

The Government can even chalk out a rock art tourism package, organising trips to these places for serious tourists, including those abroad studying such treasures.

[ramana]

A long e-mail from a lurker.......

Dear Ramanna,

I am an avid reader of BR for a long time, but this is my first post.

I am just reporting the below links as it throws considerable light to our discussion in BR, that from the bosom of Bharat mata came Sanadana Dharma / Vedic Language / Indian Civilization and it is the mother of all civilizations and rest of the known earliest languages like Hebrew, Latin, Greek etc came from Vedic Language, precursor to modern Sanskrit language.


Note : These video recording of Kanchi Mahan's devotees, is carried out by few dedicated individuals for blogging and spreading the message to rest of his devotees and for future generations to know the greatness of the mahan who lived amongst us in 20th Century. This was not done to propound or disprove (Out of India theory / AIT ) nor it has any other ulterior motive. But some of the discussions give a solid proof to Out of India theory. So I am forwarding the same to BR community to know the thought process of one of the greatest souls of Bharat on this issue.


-----------------------------***********************---------------------------

To Supplement Out of India Theory and to Demolish AIT being thurst on us, I would like to share some experiances of true devotees of Kanchi Jagadguru Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Swamigal (May 20, 1894 – January 8, 1994) and explaining through their own words how these incidents happend.
• Kanchi Shankaracharya's discussion with Philology Research scholors on the Oldest Language in the World and also proving that rest of the languages orginated from Vedic Language and made them realize how it happened by quoting from Rig Veda. (Supporting Out of India - OIT)
• Periyava and Quantum Theory from Rig Veda.
• How Kanchi Acharya explained to our local scholars on the significance of Tanjore Big Temple architecture and made them to refute conclusion by foreign experts that Tanjore Big temple design was arrived by fluke. (Just because foreign experts couldn't find similar architecture like Tanjore Brahadishwarar temple, foreign experts claimed the design was arrived by fluke, very much similar to proponents of AIT in not finding any remains of horse/charriots dated more than 3 to 4 millinium from India)
• Horse Metaphor from Rig Veda to explain thorough breed of Horse, and its similarity to Jeevan Mukthas.


Experience of Thiruvannamalai Shri Gowrishankar with Mahaperiyava
==================================================


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPf_Hcq2 ... ature=plcp


[ The entire video talks about experiances of Commoners with His Holiness Jagaduru Kanchi Kamokoti Shankaracharyar - Chandrashekhara Sarawathy Swamigal (Divine in human form during 20th Century) affectionately called as Maha Periayava. From Time :44.00 onwards till the end discussion is on What Rig Veda describes about Quantum theory, how His Holiness Maha Periyava - Chandrashekara Sarawathy Swamigal made four Forigners doing doctorate to realise that the most ancient language in the entire world is Vedic Language and proved to them that our own Maharishis only went to different parts of this world ( ie Out of India ) and from Vedic language came rest of the languages. ]

The above discussion is entirely in Tamil language.


Pls. refer to the below link for English Transliteration of the above discussion for those who can't follow Tamil.


http://mahaperiyavaa.wordpress.com/2012 ... annamalai/


All the above works (like Video discussion and its english transliteration ) were done by sincere devotes of Maha Periayava.

I am just reporting the link as it throws considerable light to our discussion in BR.




Experience of Sri Vazhutur Ramamurthy
===================================



Horse metaphor from Rig vedha as explained by Mahaperiyava in the below mentioned interview. (From Time : 33.00 onwards there is a narration of an incident by Ramamurthy between his Father and Maha Periyava and upon Ramamurthy's father leaving this mortal body, Maha Periyava gives this Metaphor and its subtle meaning for us to understand )


http://mahaperiyavaa.wordpress.com/2012 ... amamurthy/


From the above we can come to a conclusion that our ancient maharishis were very knowledgable and have observed all beings in Nature and had complete mastery over them.


------------------------------***********************------------------------------


My inference to support OIT
=====================

Just because, we couldn't find any traces of Horses / Carriages before 4000 / 5000 years from present day india, we can't say that our ancestors were ignorant of horses and Vedas were composed at an alien land by Aryans. Recent DNA mapping of Indians show most of Indians ( North & South india) have very similar DNA structure refuting this Aryan Invasion Theory.

Sanatana Dharma / Hinduisam / Vedic Language / Indian Civilisation has a history of many Yugas, whereas we are trying to fit such an vast treasure of civilisation spanning across (100,000+ years ) into what the foreigners want us to be constricted to few thousand years ( 4000 / 5000 years etc.)

I am attaching herewith few scanned pages from Forward section of a Tamil Book (Hindu Maha Samudram authored by political satirist Cho Ramasamy).

Those who can read tamil can make out the lineage of our civilization from the Sankalpam (in Sanskrit manthra begining as - Adhya brahmana Dvidhya Prarthey Svedha Varaha Kalpe....... etc) we make before starting any Yagam /Pooja etc. Our heads will start spinning to calculate the lineage and antiquity of sanadhana dharmam / Hinduisam / Vedic language etc where our roots is being traced all the way back to 43,20,000 years( 1 maha yugam).

Just because we don't know or haven't seen our fore-fathers who lived 5 centuries back, [As we don't find any physical traces of fore-fathers who lived 5 centuries back - like photos (came only in late 18th century), Portraits in drawings etc or their belongings now due to vagary of time] we can't say that our fore-fathers did not exisist 5 centuries back. We have difficulty to even trace our own family-tree beyond a certain time-period, we have to believe in what our elders say.

Similarly we have to trust with belief what is mentioned by learned maharishis and vedas are antique and extend back more than 43,20,000 years and originated from Bharat and spread to different parts of globe by our learned maharishis as mentioned in Rig Veda itself (Strongly supporting Out of India theory).



Thanks & Regards,
A.K.Nathan.
---------------

He also attached the scans of Cho Ramaswamy's book in Tamil. Will try to send to some one to put on a download link.

Thanks, AKN!!!

[Prem]

AIT-Nazi Book
[Claims the Sumerians were the Indo-Aryans who gave us civilization! However he does draw parallels between Sumerians and Harappans and hence can be interesting.

We have Indo EuROPEans
We have Indo Sumerian
We have Indo-Aryan
We have Indo Hittite and Qadesh ( Names of the Kings)
We have Indo Mittani ( Peace Treaty)
We have Indo-Iranian
We have Ram se in Egypt ( Ramses means From Ram in Misri )
We have Mayan in Patala with Quber ( Banished by Ravan)
At least we know and all agree that all these carry Indian genetic,reliigious, linguistic and cultural Nishani. Indians left their mark on all these territories like lions and tigers. Then why the good nazis looking for their Nose pin (long) in dark when the light of Indoo is still shinning bright as it was in past. Bacches Baapu ko trick dikha rahe hai? Baap will decide which Kakka to own or disown.

[SaiK]

Finding the past parent-root is always a problem when one is in way past into the future, especially when it goes beyond any written records. So, that is a premise on which one could say, Indo->X is TRUE relationship. If we can prove that oral languages existed (spoken as written now) before scripts came to being used by humans, is another premise, on which we can conclude which way the "I"/"M" went.

Invasion/Migration

[abhishek_sharma]

I am assuming that the full contents of this science magazine paper has been posted here?

Mapping the Origins and Expansion of the Indo-European Language Family

[ukumar]

Spoken languages don't leave markers. One has to use archaeological evidence to find markers of a technology. Indo-European language family shares the terms for horse, wagon, chariot. They share it in the same deep way, that they share the terms for kinship, body parts and common verbs. The same set of sound changes govern all the shared vocabulary.
Archaeological evidence of the horse domestication and chariotry is all in the Eurasian steppes starting with horse domestication at Botai (3,500 BC) and evidence of fast, horse driven chariots (2100 BC) in Sintashta-Arkaim.

Manishji, you sneaked a horse through the needle without anyone noticing it. How do you make a big jump from “Proto IE people knew horse and chariot before the language split” to “People who domesticated horse and invented “fast” chariot are Proto IE people”? What is the evidence (non-linguistic of course) that Horse and Chariot were the instrumental in IE spread?
Don’t you think alternate explanation is possible? How can one use it as gospel to negate the glaring evidence suggesting IE presence in India long before 1500BC? How the hell did the largest, technically and socially advanced and well connected civilization just disappeared without having significant linguistic impact in north India (and its neighbors)? How do you explain it in view of recent developments which suggests that Harappan just moved to east and south to develop the historic Indian civilization?

Can you explain why horse and chariot must be present to associate archeological site with IA? I am asking for IA here and not the people who composed Rigveda. Why is there an assumption that Vedic people where the first and only IA speaker in India?

[shiv]

Spoken languages don't leave markers. One has to use archaeological evidence to find markers of a technology. Indo-European language family shares the terms for horse, wagon, chariot. They share it in the same deep way, that they share the terms for kinship, body parts and common verbs. The same set of sound changes govern all the shared vocabulary.
Archaeological evidence of the horse domestication and chariotry is all in the Eurasian steppes starting with horse domestication at Botai (3,500 BC) and evidence of fast, horse driven chariots (2100 BC) in Sintashta-Arkaim.

Manishji, you sneaked a horse through the needle without anyone noticing it. How do you make a big jump from “Proto IE people knew horse and chariot before the language split” to “People who domesticated horse and invented “fast” chariot are Proto IE people”? What is the evidence (non-linguistic of course) that Horse and Chariot were the instrumental in IE spread?
Don’t you think alternate explanation is possible? How can one use it as gospel to negate the glaring evidence suggesting IE presence in India long before 1500BC? How the hell did the largest, technically and socially advanced and well connected civilization just disappeared without having significant linguistic impact in north India (and its neighbors)? How do you explain it in view of recent developments which suggests that Harappan just moved to east and south to develop the historic Indian civilization?

Can you explain why horse and chariot must be present to associate archeological site with IA? I am asking for IA here and not the people who composed Rigveda. Why is there an assumption that Vedic people where the first and only IA speaker in India?

Manish is merely parroting what has been pushed by linguists to fit their language timeline. Here is my post explaining their rationale and my objections
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1330983

What struck me in retrospect was a conflicting statement made by Manish in two separate posts in which one said that language leaves no markers for dating but Mycenaean Greek was adjudged old on purely linguistic terms. I notice that the community of linguists take archaeological evidence ONLY when it suits their theory and and reject it when it does not suit them. The rejection or acceptance is hidden behind a complex jargon filled linguistic explanation that no one can understand unless you dig in a little. That often reveals bluffs here and there - or convenient assumptions to fit the theory. A bunch of people among whom I would include linguists/philologists/anthropologists/sociologists have been cooking up fake theories for decades and no one has bothered to call their bluff. And it won't happen until Indians discover that there is more to knowledge than engineering and medicine.

Seeing the way bluffs have been propagated to cook up entire histories I have now stopped trusting most of the work that was done between 1800 and 1950 and I think that a thorough reassessment and revalidation needs to be done about decipherment and accuracy of decipherment of old texts and how phonology was assigned to unknown scripts. There have been so many bluffs that I simply don't trust what this bunch say any more.

For things like the Behistun inscriptions, the real heroes were the people who risked life and limb to copy and record those inscriptions (and this includes Rawlinson). But I am yet to see a modern 20th century critique and revalidation of the original decipherment.

[shiv]

The "deep links" of "Indo-European" languages has been explained as shared terminology for body parts, horse and chariot.

Hmm let me see... Horse and Chariot came to Pontic steppe in 3600 BC. I wonder when body parts like eye, mouth and leg came to Pontic steppe? Body parts have been found in graves in central Asia from 4000 BC so that is proof that human body parts came just before horse and chariot.

So until 1200 BC when Sanskrit came to India, the words for body parts were unknown. Maybe there was no language even.

Oh my the bullshit that is being peddled here is astounding. No one can prove this wrong because language leaves no markers and there is no evidence of language in India prior to 1200 BC The people were dumb and had no names for body parts, rivers etc until Pondy Steppenwolf came

[shiv]

Interesting stuff. I had noted on an earlier page that Europe has a line of countries that speak non IE "Uralic" languages. The Uralic languages extend from Serbia/croatia in the South via Austria, Hungary right up north to Finland and Sweden.

In another post I had mentioned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages. The word for "four" (number 4) in Uralic languages is like Tamil "Naaluh" and "Kannada "Naalakku"
Finnish Nelja, Estonian Neli etc
The word for 9 is structured like Hindi "unnees (20 minus one)


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix: ... _languages

• The word for mother is vaguely akin to "amma" or "aayi" (Marathi) ema" and "aiti" in different Uralic languages
• Father: is apa in Hungarian (Appa - Kannada/Tamil)
• Ear: - "Korva" in 2 languages is reminiscent of Kannada "kiwi"
• Tongue: - "nyelv" (Hungarian) and "nelam" in "Komi" language are like "Naalge" in Kannada
• Hand: - words like kez, kasi, kazi are reminscent of Kannada/Tamil "Kai"
• Laugh: "nagrua" in Finnish is like "nagu" (kannada)
• To hold: "pitaa", "pidla" "paidama" are like "pidi"(Tamil),
• To push: "Tol" in Hungarian is like "Tull" in (Kannada/Tamil)
• White: "Valkia", "Valgie", "valge" are like tamil "Vellai"

But many other words sound like "indo-European" and many like nothing else that i know.

I think some of these language theories are pure guesswork. No one knows exactly. Too many Uralic words like Dravidian languages.

Today's Hindu has this:
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 836320.ece

But the origin of Tamil, the language spoken by the southern neighbours, is still unclear.

It seems to have some relationship with, of all languages, Finnish, Hungarian and Basque. And Malayalam, which has commonality with Tamil, has several words common with Finnish; for example the words for basket (vatti in Malayalam, vatin in Finnish), flower (puu, puu), house (kudi, koti).

[Arjun]

Today's Hindu has this:
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 836320.ece

Interesting that one can have a resume of this sort: Dr Bala and still be a clueless moron in a field one is unfamiliar with. Despite being an Indian 'scientist' he sees no reason to dwell on the possibility of India being the mother-country of the IE family. On the other hand, he seems to have no compunctions in classifying Telugu as 'Indo-European' which no linguist has ever attested to.

[shiv]

Today's Hindu has this:
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 836320.ece

Interesting that one can have a resume of this sort: Dr Bala and still be a clueless moron in a field one is unfamiliar with. Despite being an Indian 'scientist' he sees no reason to dwell on the possibility of India being the mother-country of the IE family. On the other hand, he seems to have no compunctions in classifying Telugu as 'Indo-European' which no linguist has ever attested to.

This guy is a columnist who has had a column in the Hindu's Thursday Science edition for decades now. He appears to be one of those science enthusiasts who subscribes to Science mags and cuts and pastes topical stuff. No analysis.

[Murugan]

why finnish connection

Folower = pu pu = Sanskrit Pushpam -
House = kodi, kutti = Sanskrit Kutir

[prahaar]

I think there are some inaccuracies w.r.t Finnish claims:
-Puu means wood and not flower.

There might be others inaccuracies as well.

[ShauryaT]

So until 1200 BC when Sanskrit came to India, the words for body parts were unknown. Maybe there was no language even.

Oh my the bullshit that is being peddled here is astounding. No one can prove this wrong because language leaves no markers and there is no evidence of language in India prior to 1200 BC The people were dumb and had no names for body parts, rivers etc until Pondy Steppenwolf came

This includes the entire harappan civilization and also all the archeological digs in the area, including the likes of mehrgarh dating to about 7000 BCE, . See they built all these urban like systems but had no language. They were dumb.

Good call in rejecting the entire body of work from 1800-1950 or so.

[shiv]

This includes the entire harappan civilization and also all the archeological digs in the area, including the likes of mehrgarh dating to about 7000 BCE, . See they built all these urban like systems but had no language. They were dumb.

They had no horses. The seals don't show horses. Horse bones were found, but they are not caballus. Toy chariots were found, but the animals were not all horses. Wheels were not spoked. But the graves found in Swat - well those are EXACTLY like the grave culture of Central Asia and Rig Veda grave and horse culture. They simply did not have chariots and horses to bury with the bodies. And they had no words for body parts, cattle, horse, wheel. In fact they had no cows. Every Harappan seals depict bulls, not cows. Everything came from Pondy Steppe in 1200-900 BC

We and the likes of "Dr Bala" above have been swallowing this sort of crap for decades like pearls dropped from heaven. And because we are all learning English and no Sanskrit the first bloke who comes along and says he knows Sanskrit and knows exact meaning, author, origin and date of Rig Veda makes us immediately kowtow and have severe taqleef that "We are wrong. These cunning linguists are right"

[Murugan]

Quoted few pages before

Authors: Steve Farmer, Richard Sproat and Michael Witzel
The Collapse of the Indus Script Thesis: The Myth of a Literate Harappan Civilization

Phools of Phirst Degree.

How the streets were perfectly aligned, how the cities were well planned, why brick size was uniform across vast swath of landmass. Happened without literacy?

[ukumar]

Manish is merely parroting what has been pushed by linguists to fit their language timeline. Here is my post explaining their rationale and my objections
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1330983

What struck me in retrospect was a conflicting statement made by Manish in two separate posts in which one said that language leaves no markers for dating but Mycenaean Greek was adjudged old on purely linguistic terms. I notice that the community of linguists take archaeological evidence ONLY when it suits their theory and and reject it when it does not suit them. The rejection or acceptance is hidden behind a complex jargon filled linguistic explanation that no one can understand unless you dig in a little. That often reveals bluffs here and there - or convenient assumptions to fit the theory. A bunch of people among whom I would include linguists/philologists/anthropologists/sociologists have been cooking up fake theories for decades and no one has bothered to call their bluff. And it won't happen until Indians discover that there is more to knowledge than engineering and medicine.

Seeing the way bluffs have been propagated to cook up entire histories I have now stopped trusting most of the work that was done between 1800 and 1950 and I think that a thorough reassessment and revalidation needs to be done about decipherment and accuracy of decipherment of old texts and how phonology was assigned to unknown scripts. There have been so many bluffs that I simply don't trust what this bunch say any more.

For things like the Behistun inscriptions, the real heroes were the people who risked life and limb to copy and record those inscriptions (and this includes Rawlinson). But I am yet to see a modern 20th century critique and revalidation of the original decipherment.

Shivji, I do understand where ManishJi is coming from and nothing personal in my post. He seems well read and reasonable person and I am just interested to know how does he reconcile this. There is clear conflict between the literary, archaeological evidence in India and the IA invasion(migration) date of 1500BC. Obviously one of them is wrong. Now question is why would one ignore other evidence and rely on date proposed under Kurgan hypothesis which basically starts from assumption that horses and chariot gave technical advantage to IE and help them conquer most of the Eurasia. Idea is very tempting but is there evidence for it? If not how can one use presence of horse and chariot as substitution for IE? Linguists should be revisiting their theories just like the Harappan archaeologists are doing. If their data doesn't allow for OIT, at least they should push back the date of IA arrival in India instead of cooking up weird explanations to explain things away.

[shiv]

I think there are some inaccuracies w.r.t Finnish claims:
-Puu means wood and not flower.

There might be others inaccuracies as well.

It only shows that no one really knows exactly how and where langauges originated and spread. Uralic langauges have been clased as non IE, but everyone who has been impressed by teh Vedas has been spending tiem looking for Indo-Aryan (now Indo-European) langauges and no one gives a shit for non IE. It is the non IE that are going to hold more clues as we wipe away the bluff used in cating and placing IE langauges.

I don't know about non IE but I wil bet my left testimonial (or what's left of it after I am buried Vedically with my horse and chariot) that Sanskrit or a progenitor language existed in India during the time of the Indus valley civilization. India is huge. The distance from Pontic steppe to North Shitistan and Afghanistan is 2000 km. It is the same distance to Bengal from Indus. If IE langauges reached IVC 1000 years ater Pontic stepe, they should have take at least that much time to reach Bengal. That means no IE languages should have been present in Bengal/Bihar area around 300 BC when teh Mauryan empire came into existence.

We spend so much time learing about Secular Emperor Aurangzeb that we can't recognise the differences bewteen history, bullshit and a gourmet cooked up meal. They are all the same to us the way we are willing to lap it up.

[RajeshA]

Seeing the way bluffs have been propagated to cook up entire histories I have now stopped trusting most of the work that was done between 1800 and 1950 and I think that a thorough reassessment and revalidation needs to be done about decipherment and accuracy of decipherment of old texts and how phonology was assigned to unknown scripts. There have been so many bluffs that I simply don't trust what this bunch say any more.

In Europe there is the Renaissance (13th-15th century), the Reformation (1517-1559), the Age of Enlightenment (1650-1804), etc. Not to forget the Age of Colonialism and Slavery!

But this 1800 - 1950 time-span should also be given a fitting name! Something like:

1. Age of Cultural Loot
2. Age of Academic Racism
3. Age of Fallacious Scholarship
4. etc.

More proposals are welcome!

[shiv]

Shivji, I do understand where ManishJi is coming from and nothing personal in my post. He seems well read and reasonable person

This is what I thought until I discovered that he will not hesitate to make false accusations and trumpet his knowledge over my ignorance and incompetence rather than accepting the fake assumptions that linguists whose theories he posts have made. Being well read is one thing. Being reasonable is a totally different thing. They don't necessarily go together.

[Murugan]

Iravatham Mahadevan, in 2009 called The Collapse of the Indus Script Thesis: The Myth of a Literate Harappan Civilization, in the same years he has ilu ilu with Witzel. Brings him to Sanskrit College Chennai and goes with him elsewhere and all ga ga while introducing him to public.

Mahadevan Chides people who opposed the visit and the meeting of the professor at various places TamilNadu.

***

Witzel was also guest of honour at Panjal Athiratram held in Kerala

***

How Mahadevan Helped Witzhell

“Dr. Witzel has been an expert in Vedic research in general and Rig Veda in particular. I met him six years back at Harvard when I had been there in connection with the publication of my book on Tamil epigraphy by Harvard University. At that time, he was the one who welcomed me and took me around the university, including the library”.

(Although Witzel had criticized Iravatham Mahadevan in the past, he helped in the publication of Iravatham’s book at Harvard. Mahadevan acknowledged this in the introduction for his book “Early Tamil Epigraphy: From the Earliest to the Sixth Century AD”)

Defending Witzel, Iravatham Mahadevan said, “There is some misunderstanding about him and his works. Two days ago some misguided elements tried to disrupt his lecture at Sanskrit College, but anticipating trouble we were ready with police protection. In spite of that those misguided fanatics protested outside the venue peacefully by distributing pamphlets. Those people have acted against our cultural tradition. Taking care of our guest and treating him with respect is our culture as signified by the saying ‘Atithi Devo Bhava’. We may have differences of opinion with our guests, but it doesn’t mean that we should disrespect them. I too have differences of opinion with him. So, shall I take a gun and shoot him down?

“Tolerance is a part of our culture. We believe in the ancient saying ‘Ekam sat, viprah bahuda vadanti’. There have always been conflicts between the Church and the State in western nations. But our country had produced great Saints and Gurus like Buddha, Adi Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhava and many others who have shown us the path of tolerance, pluralism and secularism. But those who protested that day in Sanskrit College have not followed the path of these great saints and their behaviour was so un-Indian, but they are only the fringe elements of the society”. He concluded with a ‘Shanti Sloka’ in Sanskrit.

[shiv]

Seeing the way bluffs have been propagated to cook up entire histories I have now stopped trusting most of the work that was done between 1800 and 1950 and I think that a thorough reassessment and revalidation needs to be done about decipherment and accuracy of decipherment of old texts and how phonology was assigned to unknown scripts. There have been so many bluffs that I simply don't trust what this bunch say any more.

In Europe there is the Renaissance (13th-15th century), the Reformation (1517-1559), the Age of Enlightenment (1650-1804), etc. Not to forget the Age of Colonialism and Slavery!

But this 1800 - 1950 time-span should also be given a fitting name! Something like:

1. Age of Cultural Loot
2. Age of Academic Racism
3. Age of Fallacious Scholarship
4. etc.

More proposals are welcome!

Age of cultural looting and academic racism?

[ukumar]

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... -saraswati
The Ghagghar-Hakra is the Saraswati
1. Neither Yamuna nor Sutlej ever fed the Saraswati.
2. Saraswati was monsoon-fed, never glacier-fed.

Very good article

Ajulkar’s conclusions, which were in place before Giosan’s paper was published, seem to resonate strongly with the research: ‘Our study has revealed that there indeed was a river S, although even in its first appearance it comes with a cloak of deification and mythology. We will not be justified in thinking of it only as a metaphor for the nighttime sky or as a deity. Nor do we need to think of the Rg Vedic S as an entity with a nostalgia-born or imported name. Further, we will be justified in setting aside two assumptions of the past—that the S had a wide or impressively broad bed and that it was glacier-fed.

Finally somebody is reading the text as is without a bias. Looking forward to this paper from Mr Ajulkar. I have been wondering how long it would take somebody to take Giosan’s paper and settle the date when Saraswati stopped flowing in to the ocean. I didn’t understand why people were so sure that Rigveda described snow fed river.

Kochhar also adds that the argument for the migration of the Rg Vedic people is based on evidence other than the Saraswati: ‘None of these matters can be considered in isolation. There is the linguistic evidence associating the language of the Rg Veda with the Avestan of the Iranians.

Just looking at pure logic this is so wrong and circular. Instead of analyzing the internal evidence in the Rigveda and matching with archaeological evidence to come up with date he wants to interpret them in context of AIT/AMT date of 1500BC. This forces him to speculate that Rigveda is referring to two different river and the Naditama Saraswati was in Afghanistan because the Ghaggar was already dried up by then. He doesn’t have to give any proof for it and mere possibility of it being true is sufficient for people to believe him. If he is objective he should be changing his position now that Giosan paper establishes that Ghaggar was indeed mighty river and possibly reaching ocean in Harappan time.