India Nuclear News And Discussion

[Sanku]

shhh - don't you know about the coal based UMPPs being contracted out to Reliance and Tata power? With a 'variable pricing' policy'? So much so that the Gujarat govt does not want a second UMPP in the state unless the central govt can fix the price?
Nuke power is the only one which can provide a modicum of competition (in the future). The UMPPs would be happy to throw crumbs at the new renewable sector (solar, tidal etc) - since they produce crumbs anyway. So everyone is happy and the Indian tax payer gets into an Enron like situation without the ability to opt out

Wow mixing up totally different issues.

Is the culpability of Enron a reflection on UMPPs?

Is there a relationship between well administered sector with competition with source of energy?

Is there a correlation between loss of power in grids and need for A particular energy sources?

Talk of clutching at straws.

[Sanku]

This "cost of nuclear power" debate now only evinces yawns...Big ones..

Yes and soon it will cease to do even that, since people are aware of the costs and walking away.

[amit]

Because

Large NPPs based on LWRs are not robust tech. -- ...

Aha! What masterful logic, can't expect anything less from Sanku Maharaj!

Since NPPs based on LWRs are not robust tech (btw its another matter that one needs to ask from which dark place where the sun doesn't shine, this data point or using a more fashionable word - factoid - was pulled out from) its doesn't matter that 10,000 or more people die every year from coal fired plants and renewables should substitute nuclear generation and not coal first.

I wish BRF had a Pulitzer equivalent prize for the bestest, greatest and grandest post. I know which one I'd nominate.

Added later: By the way I asked you a question Sanku. How many people actually died as a direct result of the Chernobyl nuclear accident? Oh by the way I hope you know that Chernobyl was not a "NPP based on LWR".

I hope this question doesn't go the same way as the earlier question I asked about mass transit systems which are a) in the pvt sector, b) profitable and c) never took any govt grant.

[amit]

So let's see what we've got till now:

1) Goras dying, wannabe Goras breast milk infected with nuclear radiation (don't ask me how that happens! ) and so how dare one talk about 10,000 people dying every year due to coal poisoning.

2) NPP baed LWRs are not robust tech, so how dare one bring up the fact that 10,000 people are dying every year due to coal poisoning.

NB: Before anyone jumps on this, as I know they will, I'm using this 10,000 figure based on my calculations. If anyone can provide an alternative and credible number I'm willing to accept that. However, the fact remains that people are dying every year in India by the several thousands directly due to pollution caused by coal-fired thermal power plants. I would like someone to try and disprove that!

[Tanaji]

It is very cruel, heartless and money minded to ignore the large number of deaths due to Nuclear disasters by using horrendous callous and barbaric phrases such as actual deaths and theoretical deaths.

The large numbers of lives destroyed at Chernobyl and the impact on the lives of people who are affected by Fuk-D are being mocked.

Mothers who have radiation in their breast milk,
fishermen who are going without work,
livestock's culled, people shifted from their homes.
People shifted from their homes after ONE month of exposure to radiation not knowing the effects on the rest of their lives,
children being forced to study in schools where the radiation is now equivalent to working in a nuclear establishment.
..........

This callous insensitive boorish approach towards their plight and efforts to see "Is this making money" instead of people centric approach makes me sick frankly.

Since we are doing "Wont someone please think of the children!" (hat tip to the Simpsons):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7961062.stm

She reels off a list of conditions that she sees resulting from the gas, including incidences that are far higher than the national average of lung diseases such as fibrosis and tuberculosis; cancers, especially of the bladder, cervix, lungs and oesophagus; eye disorders, such as early-onset cataracts and blurred vision; infertility and menstrual problems; kidney (renal) failure; joint problems; mental health issues and damage to the immune system.

Women who were pregnant at the time of the explosion suffered a high proportion of spontaneous abortions and stillbirths. And many children born after in-utero exposure - or conceived after the incident but whose parents were exposed - have health problems and retarded growth and development, a team of researchers reported in 2003 in the Journal of the American Medical Association (Jama).

So, deaths in India from a nuke disaster : 0
Deaths in India from chemical disaster: 3000 - 25000

Bhopal has enormous costs that are still being borne, and the cleanup is *yet* not fully complete.

Still, how many people are clamoring for an end to the chemicals industry? 0
But the nuke industry that has not killed a single one, we must get rid off.

So, does this "callous insensitive" approach make you "sick"? Will you call for an end to chemical industry as well? Note that the costs of cleanup and health effects are still prevalent decades after the actual disaster with Bhopal, much similar to what a nuclear explosion will result in. So we must close down chemical industry as well no?

Wont someone please think of the children?

[Tanaji]

Back to MVR:

What happens to his calculations if India starts up 2-3 reprocessing units or centrifuges? We are projecting to 2050, how is he sure that DAE wont start these up?

[somnath]

Back to MVR:

What happens to his calculations if India starts up 2-3 reprocessing units or centrifuges? We are projecting to 2050, how is he sure that DAE wont start these up?

Thats the main point...MVR is basing a requirement for 2030 or beyond on the basis of reprocessing capacity today...There are multiple streams of developments on large scale reporcessing, and India will have access to most of them as we trade in the nuke bazaar..And hopfully craft our own...Its an interesting subject of techncal discussion..But NOT a subject of economic commerce/planning, or the "unviability" of India's nuke plans - which is what he (and uber nationalists!) are trying to impute!

[chaanakya]

Boss could be a different study. Let me see if I can dig it out but it will have to be later, right now I've gotta rush.

But one quick point before I go, who has opposed renewables? Nobody who's been so-called pro-nuclear has done that as far as I can remember. The either/or position has been taken by the anti-nuclear group who's been saying, to effect, that let's dump nuclear because renewables can do the job. Of course the small question of high baseload generation becomes conveniently invisible.

However, like I wrote in my previous post, why isn't anyone, including you, talking about renewables substituting coal first? Do you think pollution due coal is no big issue but a theoretical nuclear accident cause by a once in a lifetime Black Swan event (like Fukushima) gives you sleepless nights?

Will wait for that. Thanks

I am glad that you clarified.

I am sure in due course Coal would be replaced with different technologies including renewables. For record , target set for renewables to achieve coal parity by 2032. Could be later but then there is something to aim for. There is a lot of work to be done in this area.

I doubt the bit about black swan event. It wasn't unexpected. And Nuclear accidents are qualitatively different than car accident or even plane accident that someone is trying to equate.

Of course if you live in the shadow of the plant it would give you sleepless nights, because you don't know if experts are not lying through their teeth. Transparency is hardly an attribute of nuclear discourse. Its more like dogma a religion. Either you are with us or against us type of position that they hold. Public and laymen are taken for granted as if they are the sole arbiter of their destiny. This hardly inspires confidence. And I don't take absolutist position. When question of energy policy is discussed all options would have to be examined. Let me tell you that DAE may promote nuclear power, but it is Ministry of power which will have final say in Nuclear electricity power generation. Separate regulator for plant would have to be setup ( not under DAE)

So now you get the idea that the plea that "others are also committing crime so one has to be let off" is not an admissible plea.If Coal needs to be tightened so be it.

[Purush]

Please spare a thought for senior DAE scientists (I believe that you know a few). These guys have served the motherland in TWO ways -- they made the bomb AND they developed nuke power. All of this was done on pittance for salaries.

I had the privilege of doing 2 small research projects (not direct nuke) at IGCAR in the 1997-1999 period during my UG. Without an iota of doubt, some of the scientists there are the finest minds I have had the pleasure of knowing. I have interacted with TFTA scientists from TFTA univs in Amirkhan and Oirope, but what the IGCAR guys used to do even with such draconian tech denial regimes in place was amazing.

After the nuke tests, I got a first hand taste of how difficult it was to source even 399% weapons-unrelated spare parts for some of the materials (non-nuke) characterization/processing eqpt there. Yet they managed to make things work. Truly remarkable group of people. And yes, they are very very highly regarded by their peers abroad.

Are they perfect and infallible? No.
But I would trust their word over any of the slimy NPAs or professional NPA fluffers on Peearreff any day when it comes to Indian nuclear matters.

[amit]

So now you get the idea that the plea that "others are also committing crime so one has to be let off" is not an admissible plea.If Coal needs to be tightened so be it.

Boss,

I'll get back to you on that report, don't have the time to do a search on BRF now.

However, I'd like one small clarification: What crime has the Indian nuclear industry committed?

Do note that in this post of yours as well as others you seemed to have blamed the Japanese as much as natural elements for Fukushima. For example here you said that the Black Swan event was not unexpected.

So are you trying to say that since the Japanese nuclear industry "committed a crime" (alleged negligence) the Indian nuclear industry is culpable too? Why are you lumping the Indian nuclear establishment with the global one?

Meanwhile, I say the Indian coal-based power generation industry has already killed people and are killing them every day (you don't get to 10,000 or any other similar number without killing every day). And till now at least the Indian nuclear industry hasn't killed a single person. So who or which industry is more culpable - one that is already killing or one which may kill in the future?

Yet, you worry about nuclear - because of theoretical clean up costs in the unlikely event of an accident. But you are willing to wait until "eventually" coal is replaced by renewables. Why not ban the coal industry right here and now?

Note, there's an 800 lb gorilla in the room we aren't even talking about. And that is nobody even knows now how you'd produce electricity in the quantity that one mega coal or nuclear power plant can now produce using renewables. Several pages ago GP gave a good estimation. If correct he noted that to power a city like Delhi, we'd need a solar farm almost the size of Rajasthan. Even considering the fact that, that may be a exaggeration, have you even considered the land acquisition cost - not only monetary but also in terms of unpredictibles like demonstrations, riots etc - that would entail in building huge solar farms? Let's not even talk about how you have high base load generation at night.

Sorry I like live in the real world and take my chances rather than have my head in the cloud and dream about a theoretical nirvana. Hence I'm willing to take chances with nuclear with of course better monitoring, independent regulator and all the stuff that can make nuclear power more safer.

Call it a difference in approach if you will.

[amit]

But I would trust their word over any of the slimy NPAs or professional NPA fluffers on Peearreff any day when it comes to Indian nuclear matters.

Purush,

Unfortunately the sheen on the white skin of TFTA Goras has a luster which blinds even folks on BRF. Hence we've had high priests of the NPA world being quoted in the Fukushima thread and earlier on this thread.

And when pointed out the excuse was don't look at the author look at the content. Sorry in such things the author is as important as the content. That used to be the dictum on BRF. However, as the past few pages and the valiant defense of MVR shows, this is no longer the case.

[Purush]

Sorry in such things the author is as important as the content. That used to be the dictum on BRF.

Completely agree.
Otherwise, we might as well start discussing and arguing over whether Pacqui/Cheeni strategic 'experts' have a valid point if they demand Kashmir on a silver platter and ask India to denuclearize unilaterally.

[somnath]

And when pointed out the excuse was don't look at the author look at the content. Sorry in such things the author is as important as the content. That used to be the dictum on BRF. However, as the past few pages and the valiant defense of MVR shows, this is no longer the case.

Amit, there should be no issue with that as well...Some of the most regular updates on things like fissile material stockpiles, for example, come from these NPAs...So by all means, look at the content..But the content itself is "intellectual M" at best and "malicious digression" at worst..Which is the main issue...

The problem is this...First they quote "costs"..when shown that costs are very favourable, they show "emmissions (radioacitve)"..When shown that yet again coal (and solar!!!) have much higher levels of emmissions, they show "10000000000 deaths"..When asked for evidence, they go on to "long term health effects and so on", basically unknown unknowns...Which is when the discussion really stops - because there is no debate around fear...

If the discussion remained at that level, ie, whether nuclear is kosher per se, I would still not have a problem..Its a global debate, various people have differing POVs..But here, it doesnt stop at that..It goes on to complete nonsense about how PHWRs are safer than LWRs, how India's programme is doomed because of insufficient reprocessing capacity for FBRs, how all imported reactors are snake oil...And on to externalities like "agri consumes 40% of electricity and highest T&D losses", or "airlines are examples of mass transit"...

[Sanku]

Bhopal has enormous costs that are still being borne, and the cleanup is *yet* not fully complete.

Still, how many people are clamoring for an end to the chemicals industry? 0

Are you really serious? With all the outcry Bhopal has caused? And again, why should lack of public protest against one source justify another?

In fact I would say UCC/Bhopal is like LWR import situation. It is the learning from import of dodgy tech which is causing the outcry.

[Sanku]

Sorry I like live in the real world and take my chances rather than have my head in the cloud and dream about a theoretical nirvana. Hence I'm willing to take chances with nuclear with of course better monitoring, independent regulator and all the stuff that can make nuclear power more safer.

Call it a difference in approach if you will.

No one has trouble if you want to have a nuclear plant in your basement producing energy for yourself.

Just kindly do not ram it down the throat of others who are better informed.

[amit]

In fact I would say UCC/Bhopal is like LWR import situation. It is the learning from import of dodgy tech which is causing the outcry.

Yet another case of either being economical with facts or sheer ignorance.

The Bhopal tragedy occurred not because of dodgy tech or suspect equipment. It occurred due to operator neglect - in fact Union Carbide claimed (erroneously as was proven by the inquiry commission) that a worker sabotaged the piping which led to the leak.

A similar situation in a nuclear plant running a GE or Aveya reactor would be a disaster caused by neglect by NPCIL who would be the operator. The hypothetical accident would be not because of "dodgy LWR tech" but because NPCIL was sloppy.

It's yet another case of mixing apples with oranges because they are both round and are fruits. The important point made by Tanaji has - as usual - been over looked.

[Sanku]

In fact I would say UCC/Bhopal is like LWR import situation. It is the learning from import of dodgy tech which is causing the outcry.

Yet another case of either being economical with facts or sheer ignorance.

The Bhopal tragedy occurred not because of dodgy tech or suspect equipment. It occurred due to operator neglect - in fact Union Carbide claimed (erroneously as was proven by the inquiry commission) that a worker sabotaged the piping which led to the leak.

I think this must be remembered by all BRFites and others for posterity.

Amit claims that

The Bhopal tragedy occurred not because of dodgy tech or suspect equipment.

I think that alone speaks all that needs to be said.

[Sanku]

Tanaji, isnt this cool, Bhopal was the fault of them kallu stupid Indians too, operator oversight.

[Sanatanan]

Here is a link to what another Bolg (bravenewclimate) says:
Renewables and efficiency cannot fix the energy and climate crises (part 1)
I feel that, Part 2, yet to be published and expected "to cover the ‘fallacy of the baseload fallacy’, ‘overbuilding’, costs, and evolution of real-world energy systems" might be interesting to read too.

[amit]

Tanaji, isnt this cool, Bhopal was the fault of them kallu stupid Indians too, operator oversight.

And I suppose Warren Anderson was a Kallu stupid Indian? Really!

[amit]

Now that Sanku Maharaj has brought up Union Carbide was due to faulty equipment supply and not due to operator neglect, let me quote this from the WiKi page on Bhopal tragedy.

It emerged in 1998, during civil action suits in India, that the plant was not prepared for problems. No action plans had been established to cope with incidents of this magnitude. This included not informing local authorities of the quantities or dangers of chemicals used and manufactured at Bhopal.

Dear BRFites or at least those who are following this thread and the Fukushima one, please do note the bolded portion.

Doesn't it sound eerily familiar to the harangue that Sanku Maharaj has/had been carrying out against TEPCO and the "stoopid" Japanese?

So what do we have now, Fukushima was due to operator sloppiness and neglect but Bhopal was due to "dodgy equipment" and not operator neglect.

Really!



PS: Here's a random example of Sanku-speak from the Fukushima thread.

You mean the best thing for TEPCO? If the attention shifts, they can go back to their usual ways?

If I had more time it would have been fun to dig up some more interesting nuggets like the "full reactor core meltdown" in Fukushima.

More from the WiKi page on Bhopal:

Plant management deficiencies were also identified – lack of skilled operators, reduction of safety management, insufficient maintenance, and inadequate emergency action plans.

[Sanku]

Amit, you have made your position crystal clear, Bhopal was ONLEE a operator oversight.

Thank you. As I have said before. You yourself provide my best argument in any debate.

[Purush]

to power a city like Delhi, we'd need a solar farm almost the size of Rajasthan. Even considering the fact that, that may be a exaggeration..

Amit Mian, I don't think it would be that large.

I remember doing some extremely rough calculations the other day, and for a ~ 4000 MW requirement for New Delhi, the size of the hypothetical single panel comes out to be ~470 sq km. Ofcourse, in practice, this hypothetical single panel area needs to be distributed amongst many smaller panels with gaps in between. Also consider the auxiliary solar tracking eqpt, electrical power eqpt etc, control systems etc which will use up some more space, the extremely poor capacity factor etc.

So definitely not the size of Rajasthan, but not exactly a compact solution either.
Ofcourse, nothing can be done about the fact that it won't generate power at night.

[Tanaji]

The point whether the Bhopal disaster was due to design issues or operator neglect is moot.

Opponents of nuclear power on this thread want *all* nuclear plants to be shut down (Brihaspati excluded) because it is inherently dangerous and an accident results in too much cleanup costs and cost to life. Well, the same arguments apply to Bhopal. Why shouldn't the chemical industry be shut down, or at the very least be asked to operate with gazillion $ of liability insurance?

[amit]

Amit, you have made your position crystal clear, Bhopal was ONLEE a operator oversight.

Thank you. As I have said before. You yourself provide my best argument in any debate.

Oh I've provided plenty of arguments to you, I only wish you had provided some answers in return. But it's for the BRF janata to decide who right and who's wrong.

But one small question or perhaps a couple:

1) One what actually went wrong in Bhopal?

2) Who supplied the equipment? I'm sure you are aware that Union Carbide was a chemicals plant operator and not an equipment supplier. Surely if it's an equipment fault the Bhopal inquiry commission would have identified the equipment supplier right? After all they held Warren Anderson responsible and UC was asked the pay compensation, why weren't the equipment suppliers?

Can you answer these questions.

My apologies, I seem to keep on asking you questions for which you have no answers.

[amit]

to power a city like Delhi, we'd need a solar farm almost the size of Rajasthan. Even considering the fact that, that may be a exaggeration..

Amit Mian, I don't think it would be that large.

I remember doing some extremely rough calculations the other day, and for a ~ 4000 MW requirement for New Delhi, the size of the hypothetical single panel comes out to be ~470 sq km. Ofcourse, in practice, this hypothetical single panel area needs to be distributed amongst many smaller panels with gaps in between. Also consider the auxiliary solar tracking eqpt, electrical power eqpt etc, control systems etc which will use up some more space, the extremely poor capacity factor etc.

So definitely not the size of Rajasthan, but not exactly a compact solution either.
Ofcourse, nothing can be done about the fact that it won't generate power at night.

Thanks for the clarification Mian. I will go with that. But the point remains, land acquisition for 470 sq km?????? And that too for a power project which would generate power only for roughly 12 hours a day, excluding rainy days!

[Tanaji]

It is easily 1.5x 470. You need significant gaps between rows so that cleaning equipment and vehicles can get in to service it.
So more likely 650-700 sq km.

Of course the proponents will say efficiency will increase to 90% and we will require 250 sq km or so.

[amit]

It is easily 1.5x 470. You need significant gaps between rows so that cleaning equipment and vehicles can get in to service it.
So more likely 650-700 sq km.

Of course the proponents will say efficiency will increase to 90% and we will require 250 sq km or so.

About time to buy land in Thar Desert. The value will go up because I don't see where else you could do land acquisition for 250 sq km. Hell Posco had to wait 10 years for a fraction of that land!

And to note all for one city the size of Naya Dilli.

[Purush]

Tanaji and Amit Maulanas, I agree, real world requirements would be way way larger than 470 sq km.
Also, I would appreciate if someone can recalculate the numbers when they have some free time...I am not 399% sure of my input.

Also IIRC (I didn't save the darn links at the time..stupid of me) the numbers I used for the input were from commercial solar plants in operation in Spain. Even increasing efficiency of the panel (within realistic limits i.e max of 25%) is not going to yield much improvement in the land area required.

EDIT: It won't generate power for 12 h a day, more like 5-6 h at peak output.
AFAIK the lab tests used for power rating of the panels are for a 1000 W/sq m 'perfect' solar radiation source. In reality we would get something < 500 W /sq m striking the solar panel.

EDIT 2: Yes, all for ONE city's power requirements from the ~ 2008 timeframe. As the power requirement increases in the future, it will need to scale appropriately.

[somnath]

Here is a link to what another Bolg (bravenewclimate) says:
Renewables and efficiency cannot fix the energy and climate crises (part 1)
I feel that, Part 2, yet to be published and expected "to cover the ‘fallacy of the baseload fallacy’, ‘overbuilding’, costs, and evolution of real-world energy systems" might be interesting to read too.

Good blog...The limitations of most renewables in delivering scaled up base load power is well documented...

Here is a good study of the constraints (from a source not looking to score points!)..

http://www.iea-retd.org/files/REVIEW%20 ... _final.pdf

[Sanku]

Opponents of nuclear power on this thread want *all* nuclear plants to be shut down

Who ever said that!! No one. We have all made our positions very clear many times, and it does not remotely come close to that.

[Sanku]

...

Amit, every one knows what is what in Bhopal. Thank you for stating your position clearly.

[Tanaji]

Another point: When the size of the solar plant reaches that dimensions, the problems of providing security increase manifold. Just some aspects:

• How does one provide security to a 700 sq km installation?
• What is the cost of a simple fence for this? You gotta keep the cows etc out?
• How much manpower will be required?
• The guard vehicles, support vehicles themselves will use up fuel. Does that come into the carbon footprint calculations?
• The huge surface area of the panels needs to be washed regularly. Where does this water come from? We are talking
• about 470 sq km of surface area to be washed regularly. How is it piped/pumped up?

[Purush]

Another point: When the size of the solar plant reaches that dimensions, the problems of providing security increase manifold. Just some aspects:

• How does one provide security to a 700 sq km installation?
• What is the cost of a simple fence for this? You gotta keep the cows etc out?
• How much manpower will be required?
• The guard vehicles, support vehicles themselves will use up fuel. Does that come into the carbon footprint calculations?
• The huge surface area of the panels needs to be washed regularly. Where does this water come from? We are talking
• about 470 sq km of surface area to be washed regularly. How is it piped/pumped up?

All very valid points, especially about the water required for cleaning and dispersing it over ~700 sq km.
Also need to factor in cost and maintenance of the electrical wiring (not a simple matter, consider the area that needs to be covered!!!) and junction boxes (several panels will be connected by a junction box, IIRC) too.
In fact, maintenance of the whole plant would be a massive headache.

As I've said before, if solar was a viable source of reliable/continuous power, nothing better. But as the tech stands now, it is simply not viable on a large scale for India.
If someone comes up with truly disruptive tech in this area, then awesome, but the incremental improvements approach currently in practice is not going to do much.

[amit]

^^^
Yes indeed if solar could/can come through it would be a great. I suppose eventually there's going to be a disruptive idea which will do the trick.

However, the problem for India as far as energy is concerned is that we needed more power generation yesterday not even today. And to grow at near 10 per cent over the next 20 years, the generation requirements are going to go up exponentially.

I was going through some research reports which estimate that within 10 years India and China will account for 50 per cent of global energy demand - as they should considering the population size. Where is all the bijli going to come from? It has to come from all available sources.

China seems to have understood this very well and hence it is the global leader in terms of investment in both nuclear and so -called green tech generation capacity. This is apart from its huge installed coal generation base which it's augmenting by buying just about every coal mine that available globally.

And here we are arguing about nuclear vs coal, nuclear being replaced by renewables, LWRs vs PHWRs, can't have N-plants near a "untrustworthy ocean", can't have them near cities, operator liability vs equipment supplier liability etc and as timepass esoteric physics concepts.

Talk about having one's head in the sand.

[GuruPrabhu]

No need for anyone to say anything, obvious has been actually always obvious, some people are salivating at mouth of what bonanza can come their way if critical national intrests are "privatized" especially if the "privatization" happens at terms helpful to them.

I am surprised that the e-con-o-mist(s) have not asked for the defense forces to be sold out as mercenary units? Or perhaps they
have?

In time everyone reveals their true colors. Everyone.

Rants like the one above would make the mandarins at AKG Bhawan proud. Maybe they originate from there? Afterall that's the last refuge for "uber-nationalists".

yup, known quarters took the bait. As I have said before, I don't stand to gain a single naya paisa, but that will not stop a code coolie mind to use words like "bonanza", "salivating" and "reveal true colors".

[JwalaMukhi]

The point whether the Bhopal disaster was due to design issues or operator neglect is moot.

Opponents of nuclear power on this thread want *all* nuclear plants to be shut down (Brihaspati excluded) because it is inherently dangerous and an accident results in too much cleanup costs and cost to life. Well, the same arguments apply to Bhopal. Why shouldn't the chemical industry be shut down, or at the very least be asked to operate with gazillion $ of liability insurance?

Tanaji, with all respect, that is unfair and erroneous interpretation of what is being said. Didn't answer your previous question why import is being sought. Because you alluded the domestic scientists didn't deliver and hence one had to go import route. Please do not make the leap of people who oppose "import today" because that sales mantra is on a short shelf life, as opposing everything related to nuclear. Shutting down NPPs etc. is not sought. Fund them to become capable and not become consumers like sheikhs of arabia.(obviously they are not and hence do not push them in that route to buy outdated and untested stuff from the "goras" or "honorary goras").

Sorry, you can't bat on both the sides. Either domestic scientists are competent, and let them build the capabilities at whatever the indigenous cost that they want. or as you allude they are incompetent and hence import route is necessary.

The opponents of "import today" are saying fund them to go indigenous appropriately. Do not encourage them to become sheikhs who buy(import) stuff, because they were incompetent in the first place to develop that internally. That's all. Truly over and out.

[GuruPrabhu]

Regarding deaths due to coal, don't forget to add the deaths caused by mining coal. I believe that the number is something like an average of 1.5 per week.

This is direct and can be viewed on the front pages of newspapers. Not like some long term effect which the public doesn't see directly.

So, Mango Man sees a news item about a coal mine disaster and moves on with his life. He doesn't demand an end to coal-fired power plants. But, he sees Fukushima and he turns into a headless chicken.

Fear of the invisible.

[somnath]

^^^jwalamukhiji

that is disengenuous. No single country can claim superiority in everything. True for everything, but especially true for science. Indian scientists have built up an enviable base of competencies across the nuke tech spectrum. The drawback however has been on commercialisation of the tech in an efficient manner. It is this that was supposed to be a positive externality of the nuke deal. Access to newer tech, espc in the fields of reprocessing tech and large scale commercial power plants.

So there is no dichotomy betwen our capbiltiy and benefits of foreign inputs. We gave seen that acrsss areas and no reason why nukes should be different.

[somnath]

Regarding deaths due to coal, don't forget to add the deaths caused by mining coal.

So, Mango Man sees a news item about a coal mine disaster and moves on with his life. He doesn't demand an end to coal-fired power plants. But, he sees Fukushima and he turns into a headless chicken.

Fear of the invisible.

precisely,and that is why the PR from the nuke establishment should be so much more proactive.