Small Arms Thread

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 06 Jan 2019 17:42

In terms of design, metallurgy and performance parameters, the rifle and sight shall be ‘State of the Art’

They might as well have said it has to be TFTA

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Jan 2019 09:44

Army chief has commented in a recent press conference that Northern Command shall be getting sniper rifles by month end.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 11 Jan 2019 09:51

Supposedly some Indian gun was mentioned in a rap song.

Anyone know what the gun was and what the rap song was?

I think the gun was the JVPC carbine but I'm not sure.

Update : Oh wait, i found it. It is indeed the JVPC also known as the MSMC

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 13 Jan 2019 17:04

Thakur_B wrote:Army chief has commented in a recent press conference that Northern Command shall be getting sniper rifles by month end.

https://theprint.in/security/indian-arm ... ynHi4FEB9d

Barrett M95 .50 Cal

Beretta's Victrix Armament Scorpio TGT in .338 Lapua Magnum

Let the fun times begin.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Jan 2019 18:15

The Sig 716 and Caracal have the same designers who designed the khk416...

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 13 Jan 2019 20:00

and supposedly caracal design is tweaked to work excellently in sandy conditions which is the bane of many good rifles.
How those tweaks affect the performance in very cold and tropical climates is yet to be seen.
But we basically bought HK416 mk2 and 3. nice.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Jan 2019 20:19

I still feel that we should have stolen the designs and done our own. After all every design is an evolution.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Jan 2019 20:31

It’s the bloody 7..62x39 I cannae figure

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jan 2019 04:52

5719 new sniper rifles will be inducted into the Army this month, replacing Russian 7.62 mm Dragonov. New sniper rifles include Beretta .338 Lapua Magmum Scorpio TGT and .50 Calibre Sniper Rifle M95 MS Barrett, amongst others. Welcome to the Army. Go forth and serve with honour. https://t.co/jN7WhlOnz3

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 14 Jan 2019 17:56

ramana wrote:5719 new sniper rifles will be inducted into the Army this month, replacing Russian 7.62 mm Dragonov. New sniper rifles include Beretta .338 Lapua Magmum Scorpio TGT and .50 Calibre Sniper Rifle M95 MS Barrett, amongst others. Welcome to the Army. Go forth and serve with honour. https://t.co/jN7WhlOnz3

It would be more interesting if (even due to knee jerk) we actually developed a proper Sniper Program to go along with the kit

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 14 Jan 2019 18:10

rkhanna wrote:

It would be more interesting if (even due to knee jerk) we actually developed a proper Sniper Program to go along with the kit

it will if not already has been setup. These are much more powerful rounds and need different training methodologies. usually rifle sells of this size are accompanied by a training program too. Trainers would be very quick to point out the deficiencies in existing program. If IA listen to them when IA finds out that they are now able to take out a target upwards of 2miles comfortably, IA will roll out the program.
Also with increased bonhomie with the US army, the doctrines will rub off at some point.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Jan 2019 17:41

BSF purchasing OFB TAR.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Ti ... 052524.ece

Army is close to winding up deal for 94000 Caracal 816 rifles. Procurement for remaining 360000 carbines initiated (make in india).
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/mission-g ... -set-to-go

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2019 16:13

Kalashnikov director says Indian OFB will be making similar to Ak-203 series of Rifles and not AK-100 as the former is more modern

How are things with your joint venture with the Indian Ordnance Factory Board?

- Literally in the last days of 2018, our specialists once again went to Delhi for negotiations. I personally met with representatives from the Indian side, with Rostec, Rosoboronexport and FSMTC, we are really discussing the potential production of the Kalashnikov in India. By the end of January 2019, we must formulate the main parameters of this plant. It should be understood that the Indians are already producing a product that they have mastered by themselves; we are, in fact, invited first of all in order to improve the quality.

- They all sit on your old "Kalash".

- In the process of negotiations, we explained that over the past 50 years, the Kalashnikov assault rifle, to put it mildly, has changed, we have new modifications, more interesting, and, most likely, we will come to the conclusion that we will change the product that has now been delivered troops. This will not be the AK of the 100th series, it will be similar to the AK-203, that is, a much more technically advanced product. As far as we know, this suits the Ministry of Defense, and the production side is also ready, it will be somewhat more expensive, but, in my opinion, this is the case when the price is justified.

https://ria.ru/20190124/1549790346.html

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 25 Jan 2019 00:25

Austin wrote: - In the process of negotiations, we explained that over the past 50 years, the Kalashnikov assault rifle, to put it mildly, has changed, we have new modifications, more interesting, and, most likely, we will come to the conclusion that we will change the product that has now been delivered troops. This will not be the AK of the 100th series, it will be similar to the AK-203, that is, a much more technically advanced product. As far as we know, this suits the Ministry of Defense, and the production side is also ready, it will be somewhat more expensive, but, in my opinion, this is the case when the price is justified.

https://ria.ru/20190124/1549790346.html[/quote]

What nonsense. The so-called AK200 is just a rebranded 100 series with minor improvements, mostly related to ergonomics and accessory rails for the export market. I guess there is a sucker born every minute.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... of-rifles/

Basically, the 200-series of AK rifles are the 100-series with the factory installed AK Upgrade Kit that was introduced earlier. We reported about the introduction of this kit which you can read about by clicking here. These upgrades are mostly related to ergonomics and include minor new parts. The core operating system of the rifles is retained identical to that of 100-series of rifles.

The 200-series of AK rifles are primarily designed for exporting and sales to domestic Russian law enforcement agencies. Although they look similar, these rifles should not be confused with the AK-12 and AK-15 that were recently adopted by the Russian military. The AK-12 and AK-15 are arguably more advanced firearms with several more significant design changes such as the permanently fixed gas tube with the gas block disassembled from the front.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 25 Jan 2019 02:34

The Russian MoD passed the ak-15. The videos of it are impressive. Is it on the table or just to much costly for even screwdriver-giri?

The ak203 from above comment just seems like a gold plated ak103 with hardly any value addition.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 25 Jan 2019 03:05

AK15 would be the same wastage of money as AK203 would be. Also IA would never take the risk since it is not inducted in significant quantities in any infantry. Armenia has ordered AK12 and AK15.
I do not know what is the special love Army has for this specific calibre other than it can be fired from an AK and has more mass than a .223. It will even negate that advantage with heavy recoil that comes with the gun.
There are other ways the stopping power of 223 can be increased, one is to increase the bullet weight from 4g to 5g. We are already ordering plenty of carbines that could be used for CI/CT ops.
Let the AK203 come, use it to better arm our CAPF, CG, Police forces, BSF.
T.L.D.R arm forces under MHA with the 6.5L AKs, let infantry and other units have better.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 25 Jan 2019 03:28

So AK-203 is basically just a AK-103 with picatinny rails and a new flash suppressor.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Jan 2019 04:19

souravB wrote:AK15 would be the same wastage of money as AK203 would be. Also IA would never take the risk since it is not inducted in significant quantities in any infantry. Armenia has ordered AK12 and AK15.
I do not know what is the special love Army has for this specific calibre other than it can be fired from an AK and has more mass than a .223. It will even negate that advantage with heavy recoil that comes with the gun.
There are other ways the stopping power of 223 can be increased, one is to increase the bullet weight from 4g to 5g. We are already ordering plenty of carbines that could be used for CI/CT ops.
Let the AK203 come, use it to better arm our CAPF, CG, Police forces, BSF.
T.L.D.R arm forces under MHA with the 6.5L AKs, let infantry and other units have better.

Who cares about the infantry!!!
Katrina, Rambhas, missiles, tanks, SF etc are the sexy things.
Not only small arms but also the psychological well being of the grunt...

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Jan 2019 04:21

Just thinking is there a geopolitical angle to the Caracal?
There is a lot of heartburn in Pakistan due to our vastly improved relationship with the UAE..

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 25 Jan 2019 05:24

ks_sachin wrote:Just thinking is there a geopolitical angle to the Caracal?
There is a lot of heartburn in Pakistan due to our vastly improved relationship with the UAE..

I do not think so.. well may be there is but the Caracal is a good rifle with refined design. Passing our Army's testing method is no joke.
What I do not understand is, at ~$900 a piece(for 70K pieces, larger order further reduces price), 6L SS716 comes around at ~$5B spread over 7-8 years. Can't it be allocated in the budget as extra CAPEX. I am sure the shortfall could be managed by hiking the price at Parliament canteen to a normal restaurant level, allowing only economy class travel and reducing salaries of our Parliamentarians. All of them, including states.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Jan 2019 10:10

^^^
6L SS716 should be around 1.5b $ no?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Jan 2019 13:30

The inconsistencies in Kalashnikov deal news gives me a feeling we are not buying AKMs but rather an AKM spinoff in 7.62x51. it's just a gut feel, so take it fwiw.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jan 2019 14:06

Cant be that they will move to .51 because the army has AKs in lakhs and their ammo will be in millions so it makes sense to operate a better AK with 7.62×39mm and keep the logistics simple

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2019 14:23

Thakur_B wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Army chief has commented in a recent press conference that Northern Command shall be getting sniper rifles by month end.
https://theprint.in/security/indian-arm ... ynHi4FEB9d

Barrett M95 .50 Cal

Beretta's Victrix Armament Scorpio TGT in .338 Lapua Magnum

Let the fun times begin.

unable to push in bands of terrorists, they have taken to lot of sniping, both to scare off indian patrols and for upar hand.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jan 2019 15:10

But can't help on how much the cancellation of Denel AMR in 2004 as aCBM with Pakis harmed us. I hope the army also procured lots of Vidwanshuks

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 25 Jan 2019 15:43

Thakur_B wrote:The inconsistencies in Kalashnikov deal news gives me a feeling we are not buying AKMs but rather an AKM spinoff in 7.62x51. it's just a gut feel, so take it fwiw.

The AK308 already comes in the 762/51 Calibre. But i believed its derived from the AK12 series.

https://static-ssl.businessinsider.com/ ... 3%20pm.png

https://www.businessinsider.in/The-Russ ... 480126.cms

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Jan 2019 15:52

Thakur_B wrote:The inconsistencies in Kalashnikov deal news gives me a feeling we are not buying AKMs but rather an AKM spinoff in 7.62x51. it's just a gut feel, so take it fwiw.

Sir aap Ke muh mein ghee Shakkar !!!!

I have been reading up on that and the dev is supposed to be targeted at us.

The vids show manageable recoil.

Mr Khanna the 308 is the only 7.62x51 ak. It is still under dev and has gone through a round of testing by Ru Army.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jan 2019 17:14

The basic question to ask for is did the Army asked for 7.62x51 or 7.62x39 ? It is immaterial what the manuf has it will deliver what has been asked to.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 25 Jan 2019 18:23

^^to add
Will IA top brass and babus be brave enough to take the risk of inducting a new class of rifle?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Jan 2019 22:05

souravB wrote:^^to add
Will IA top brass and babus be brave enough to take the risk of inducting a new class of rifle?

I thought RR would get New AK 7.63x39. They already use and reg inf New 5.56 and 7.62x51 as Dmr. Non critical arms would get make in India 5.56.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Jan 2019 09:18

rkhanna wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:The inconsistencies in Kalashnikov deal news gives me a feeling we are not buying AKMs but rather an AKM spinoff in 7.62x51. it's just a gut feel, so take it fwiw.

The AK308 already comes in the 762/51 Calibre. But i believed its derived from the AK12 series.

https://static-ssl.businessinsider.com/ ... 3%20pm.png

https://www.businessinsider.in/The-Russ ... 480126.cms

AK308 is based on 100/200 series platform with some features from AK12.

According to the press release: “Weapon is based on AK-103 with certain design features taken from AK-12 and is chambered for 7.62×51 round. At the moment, weapon is being prepared for trials. (…)

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... pe-ak-308/

Hence my suspicion that the new rifle might be AK308.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jan 2019 09:43

AFAIK the 7.62x51 round for which US arm-maker SIG Sauer's SiG 716 won will be the new battle rifle in limited quantity while 7.62x39 will replace bulk for IA rifle

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 26 Jan 2019 10:15

Aditya_V wrote:But can't help on how much the cancellation of Denel AMR in 2004 as aCBM with Pakis harmed us. I hope the army also procured lots of Vidwanshuks

BSF 100 Vidhwansak
Army Zero
Production - The End

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Jan 2019 02:46

If the drawbacks with the 5.56 round are enough to force the IA to switch back to 7.62, how do we explain the fact that the Para SF battalions heavily involved in COIN ops seem to do fine with the TAVOR and we have heard no complaints about it?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Jan 2019 04:08

nachiket wrote:If the drawbacks with the 5.56 round are enough to force the IA to switch back to 7.62, how do we explain the fact that the Para SF battalions heavily involved in COIN ops seem to do fine with the TAVOR and we have heard no complaints about it?

Not sure SF operate as part of grid in Valley.

Also the effectiveness of 5.56 became a red herring. The real target was the INSAS as RR which predominate are AK.

The Caracal is for reg ing I think.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Jan 2019 04:12

Caracal is for the Carbine requirement only right? Regular infantry will be getting the Ak-103 to be made locally, replacing the INSAS. That is my understanding.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Jan 2019 05:52

I dont now mate.

This is a dogs breakfast.

I despair. The only silver lining is that the grunts will get some decent weapons..

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Jan 2019 05:53

94K carbines - if regular infantry is getting ak thn where will all these carbines end up?

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 29 Jan 2019 05:58

ks_sachin wrote:
nachiket wrote:If the drawbacks with the 5.56 round are enough to force the IA to switch back to 7.62, how do we explain the fact that the Para SF battalions heavily involved in COIN ops seem to do fine with the TAVOR and we have heard no complaints about it?
Not sure SF operate as part of grid in Valley.

Also the effectiveness of 5.56 became a red herring. The real target was the INSAS as RR which predominate are AK.

The Caracal is for reg ing I think.

I would go ahead and make a statement that the number of pros and cons for both the rounds are similar. It is a matter of establishing a doctrine and follow it with the selection of a round.
Also as Sachin sir said above it isn't as much about about the round but the rifle. Our infantry has only known AKs outside the INSAS, and we all can agree which anyone would choose in a pinch.

souravB wrote: What I do not understand is, at ~$900 a piece(for 70K pieces, larger order further reduces price), 6L SS716 comes around at ~$5B spread over 7-8 years.

I added an extra zero in the calc. Mia Culpa. So the cost comes around at ~$540M for the entire infantry spread over 7-8 years. I do not understand how much IA is going to save if the Kalashnikov deal goes through.

ks_sachin wrote:94K carbines - if regular infantry is getting ak thn where will all these carbines end up?

94K+350K additional. (RFI already out, Make in India)
Come to think of it there was something I read which Jaitley as RM said, the rifles will be bought in three tranches something along the line of, x% OFB + 15% Direct from OEM + rest as Make in India tender where everybody can participate including OFB. Also as COAS said, frontline soldiers get better weapon and the non-combat and support roles get lesser ones (i.e. OFB made).
It makes sense since we are buying ~5.2L rifles+30K LMG that will be for reg+mech inf and combat roles. Rest get the OFB made AKs. Hopefully it's AK308.

BTW in other news, Khan chacha was going to pay $54M for 20K regular infantry rifles. $3K/piece. After some bruhaha in standing committee the price came down to $1.5K/piece. One needs to pay money to get its worth.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 29 Jan 2019 08:04

A realistic example of accuracy of 7.62AK. Basically useless after 25m in full auto or burst shots.