ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Mar 2009 06:24

the reason we went for aerostat radars from israel was to have the larger coverage. is it not?

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 05 Mar 2009 09:32

p_saggu wrote:IMHO,
Cruise missiles are very easy to kill once they are detected. They are subsonic and they can be taken out by shoulder fired IR SAM manpads, SAM or Antiaircraft gun batteries. Even fighters can shoot them down with AAM or gunfire.

The problem is detecting a low flying cruise missile. these subsonic birds fly close to the ground, with the ground clutter interfering with radar detection. On top of this some of them try and jam radar signals actively. Typically they need very powerful radar systems to detect them; like the Green Pine AESAs deployed by us or from a Phalcon AWACS

Cruise missile defence requires Air based or space based detectors with extremely high signal processing power - to remove the ground clutter. Landlubber radars can't just handle it efficiently.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 06 Mar 2009 00:32

x-post

Missile defence shield: India to test interceptor on Friday

"During the test an 'enemy' missile which will be a modified version of the Dhanush surface-to-surface missile will be fired from a naval ship in the Bay of Bengal and simulate the terminal phase of the flight of a ballistic missile with a range of 1,500 km, similar to Pakistan's Ghauri missile," the official said.

"As the incoming missile nears Wheeler Island, a Prithvi air defence missile will be launched to intercept it at an altitude of about 80 km and kill it," the official added.

DRDO needs to carry out at least three to four trials with both versions before the missile shield is certified for operational use.

"The test will mark the completion of the first phase of the programme and it will secure operational clearance by 2012-13," the official added.

Baptised as the Prithvi Air Defence system, the agile interceptor has now been renamed Pradyumna.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Mar 2009 09:07

k prasad wrote:
p_saggu wrote:IMHO,
Cruise missiles are very easy to kill once they are detected. They are subsonic and they can be taken out by shoulder fired IR SAM manpads, SAM or Antiaircraft gun batteries. Even fighters can shoot them down with AAM or gunfire.

The problem is detecting a low flying cruise missile. these subsonic birds fly close to the ground, with the ground clutter interfering with radar detection. On top of this some of them try and jam radar signals actively. Typically they need very powerful radar systems to detect them; like the Green Pine AESAs deployed by us or from a Phalcon AWACS
Cruise missile defence requires Air based or space based detectors with extremely high signal processing power - to remove the ground clutter. Landlubber radars can't just handle it efficiently.

how can space based assets detect cruise missiles? they have very low radar and heat signature.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 06 Mar 2009 16:25

ajay_ijn wrote:how can space based assets detect cruise missiles? they have very low radar and heat signature.

It would be far easier to use look-down detectors to detect the low-flying missiles - thats not to say that we will not need humungous amounts of processing power, but it would definitely have a longer detection range than a simple ground based detector - just points out to how tough the problem is.

Heat signature is not small - in fact, space based sensors - and IR sensors was a major part pointed out to detect missile launches and IR plumes.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Mar 2009 16:31

k prasad wrote:
ajay_ijn wrote:how can space based assets detect cruise missiles? they have very low radar and heat signature.
It would be far easier to use look-down detectors to detect the low-flying missiles - thats not to say that we will not need humungous amounts of processing power, but it would definitely have a longer detection range than a simple ground based detector - just points out to how tough the problem is.

Heat signature is not small - in fact, space based sensors - and IR sensors was a major part pointed out to detect missile launches and IR plumes.

but space based IR sensors are meant for detecting ballistic missiles in boost phase. will they be effective in detecting cruise missiles powereed by turbofan/tubojet engine with their low IR signature. yes look-down sensors are much better for sure.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 06 Mar 2009 16:38

ajay_ijn wrote:but space based IR sensors are meant for detecting ballistic missiles in boost phase.

Yup.... but i do guess that if we have extremely powerful sensors, we might just be able to pick out CMs.... anyway, I was quoting what Saraswat said... I did also mention air based sensors, so what you'd say is also true.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Mar 2009 16:41

Times now reports the missile interceptor test is successful.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 06 Mar 2009 16:46

ajay_ijn wrote:Times now reports the missile interceptor test is successful.

ajay some time before you posted test is after two days now you are giving the good news. Have you used some jin power to conduct the test

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 06 Mar 2009 16:48

http://frontierindia.net/indian-bmd-tes ... e-in-a-row

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has flight tested third Ballistic Missile Interceptor on 06 March 2009 at 1624 hrs from Wheeler Island, Integrated Test Range (ITR) successfully achieving the mission objectives set. The two stage Interceptor Missile fitted with advanced systems has neutralized the target, enemy missile at 75 Kms altitude.

To mimic the incoming enemy’s ballistic missile trajectory Dhanush missile went to an altitude of 120 Km and was launched from ship about 100 km away from Coast.
The Interceptor missile was launched using mobile launcher located on Wheeler Island Launch Complex.

The third consecutive interception of Ballistic Missiles once again demonstrated the robustness of the Indian BMD system. DRDO have already conducted two interception trials, first in Exo-atmospheric region at 48 Kms altitude on 27th November 06 and second in endo-atmospheric region at 15 kms using AAD missile on 06 Dec 07.

Update: 100% success

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Mar 2009 16:52

Nitesh wrote:
ajay_ijn wrote:Times now reports the missile interceptor test is successful.
ajay some time before you posted test is after two days now you are giving the good news. Have you used some jin power to conduct the test

may be thats DDM.

The two stage Interceptor Missile fitted with advanced systems has neutralized the target, enemy missile at 75 Kms altitude.

gr8 thats close to its max altitude.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 06 Mar 2009 16:56

Update: It was only PAD... no AAD... so please scratch what I had said before.

Update #2: Direct hit - as in, target destroyed!! Dunno about HTK...

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 06 Mar 2009 16:57

Gr8 news congratulations

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Mar 2009 17:10

Congratulations!

HTK? It;s a gimballed warhead!

ravi_s · Post by **ravi_s** » 06 Mar 2009 17:28

Just saw the news ticker at timesnow.tv. But no video yet.
Is there anything available from DD or any other media outlets?

would luv to c that it used a gimballed warhead..

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 06 Mar 2009 17:30

Times now is saying they have the video they should show in some time

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 06 Mar 2009 17:35

India sucessfully tests Interceptor missile

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Mar 2009 17:46

Nitesh wrote:India sucessfully tests Interceptor missile

ITR sources said the modified version of ''Dhanush'' missile, known as naval version of Prithvi, a surface-to-surface missile acting as an enemy missile was test fired from a naval ship INS Rajput anchored inside the Bay of Bengal at 1620 hours.

("test" fires from naval............... Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.)

Outside of DDM, nice.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 06 Mar 2009 18:36

Dhanush is launched from patrol ships not rajput. DDM at their very best

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Mar 2009 19:14

Third successful test of ballistic missile interceptor

India today inched closer towards its endeavour to put in place its own home-grown Ballistic Missile Defence System as it successfully carried out the third Interceptor test today at 1624 hrs from Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Wheeler Island in Orissa. The mission control room burst into raptures as the radar display indicated the interception and destruction of the decoy enemy missile by the interceptor. Today’s test achieved all the mission objectives. The two-stage Interceptor Missile fitted with advanced systems hit the target enemy missile at 75 kms altitude.

To mimic the incoming enemy’s ballistic missile trajectory, Dhanush missile went to an altitude of 120 Km and was launched from ship about 100 km away from the Orissa Coast. The Interceptor missile was launched from a mobile launcher located on Wheeler Island Launch Complex.

The third consecutive interception of Ballistic Missiles once again demonstrated the robustness of the Indian Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system. The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) have already conducted two interception trials, first in Exo-atmospheric region at 48 Kms altitude on 27th November 06 and second in endo-atmospheric region at 15 kms using Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile on 06 Dec 07.

The missile interception trial was witnessed by the DRDO Chief Shri M Natarajan, Air Defence Programme Director Dr VK Saraswat, senior Scientists from DRDO, senior officers from Armed Forces and Government officials. The Defence Minister Shri A K Antony has congratulated the scientific community of DRDO for the third consecutive success in achieving Ballistic Missile Defence capability.

Official press release.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 06 Mar 2009 19:15

Congrats !! Its a good news !!

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 06 Mar 2009 19:18

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... ssile.html

India tests 'Swordfish' radar with successful missile defence test news

New Delhi: In a third successful test of its ambitious missile defence programme, Defence Research and Development Orgainsation (DRDO) scientists launched an indigenously developed interceptor missile that destroyed an incoming ballistic "enemy" missile at an altitude of 80 km. The missile firing will have also tested long-range capabilities of its indigenously developed Swordfish radar.

As part of the test, an 'enemy' missile was fired from a naval ship in the Bay of Bengal simulating the terminal phase of the flight of a ballistic missile with a range of 1,500 km. As the incoming missile neared the Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast, a Prithvi air defence missile was launched to intercept the 'enemy' missile at an altitude of about 80 km and 'killed' it, an official said.

The 'enemy' missile was a modified Dhanush surface-to-surface missile (SSM), which is the ship-borne, naval version of the Prithvi SSM.

This was the third BMD test in the series and would have involved testing the indigenously developed "Swordfish" long-range tracking radar. The ''Swordfish is an acknowledged derivative of the Israeli Green Pine long range radar, which is the critical component of that country's Arrow missile defence system.

India had earlier imported two of these Israeli radars for its own use.

Earlier, in January, DRDO sources had said that a third test of the missile defence shield would involve both interceptor missiles and missile tracking radars.

While two earlier tests, in November 2006 and December 2007, successfully tested the Prithvi Air Defence (PAD -exo-atmospheric) and the Advanced Air Defence (AAD-endo-atmospheric) interceptor systems, the main thrust of the forthcoming tests would have been to validate the capabilities of the indigenously developed 'Swordfish' Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR).

Swordfish is a target-acquisition and fire-control radar designed for the country's missile defence system.

"The missile to be hit will be fired from a longer distance than it was in the earlier test. DRDO will test whether the radar can track the incoming missile from that distance or not," officials had said in January.

The radar will be instrumental in tracking an incoming hostile missile which will be intercepted by the PAD exo-atmospheric interceptor missile at an altitude over 80 km from earth, defence sources had said.

The programme is aimed at providing the country with a credible missile defence shield – primarily against missiles fielded by hostile neighbours Pakistan and China.

The Pakistani Hatf and Ghauri missiles, essentially hand-me-down versions of Chinese and North Korean missiles, have been touted as being India-specific. These tests are meant to simulate trajectories of these family of missiles.

Yesterday scientists had said that the 'enemy' missile would be a modified version of the Dhanush surface-to-surface missile and would simulate the terminal phase of the flight of a ballistic missile with a range of 1,500 km, similar to Pakistan's Ghauri missile.

"As the incoming missile nears Wheeler Island, a Prithvi air defence missile will be launched to intercept it at an altitude of about 80 km and kill it," the official added.

Scientists had also indicated yesterday that DRDO would need to carry out at least three to four further trials with both the endo and exo-atmospheric versions of the missile shield before declaring it operational.

"The test will mark the completion of the first phase of the programme and it will secure operational clearance by 2012-13," a scientist said.

Interestingly, though baptised as the Prithvi Air Defence system, the interceptor has now been renamed Pradyumna.

DRDO has affirmed that its system would be superior to the Russian S-300 and the American Patriot systems, both of which systems have been offered to India by its manufacturers.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 06 Mar 2009 19:19

Congrats

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 06 Mar 2009 19:29

Saw the launch video on Times Now. Compared to the patriot / s300 launch videos, the PAD seems o accelerate and gain altitude rather slowly. Can the gurus comment ?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 06 Mar 2009 19:34

Patriot and S-300 don't go as high up as PAD. AAD (Ashwin) is closer to them than PAD.

Hariprasad · Post by **Hariprasad** » 06 Mar 2009 19:36

Congratulations to the entire team. Puki gadha, godi have nowhere to hide now.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2009 19:39

Congratulations DRDO!

Mera Bharat Mahaan

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 06 Mar 2009 19:54

Video:India successfully tests interceptor missile.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Mar 2009 19:55

vavinash wrote:http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... ssile.html

India tests 'Swordfish' radar with successful missile defence test news

New Delhi: In a third successful test of its ambitious missile defence programme, Defence Research and Development Orgainsation (DRDO) scientists launched an indigenously developed interceptor missile that destroyed an incoming ballistic "enemy" missile at an altitude of 80 km. The missile firing will have also tested long-range capabilities of its indigenously developed Swordfish radar.

As part of the test, an 'enemy' missile was fired from a naval ship in the Bay of Bengal simulating the terminal phase of the flight of a ballistic missile with a range of 1,500 km. As the incoming missile neared the Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast, a Prithvi air defence missile was launched to intercept the 'enemy' missile at an altitude of about 80 km and 'killed' it, an official said.

The 'enemy' missile was a modified Dhanush surface-to-surface missile (SSM), which is the ship-borne, naval version of the Prithvi SSM.

This was the third BMD test in the series and would have involved testing the indigenously developed "Swordfish" long-range tracking radar. The ''Swordfish is an acknowledged derivative of the Israeli Green Pine long range radar, which is the critical component of that country's Arrow missile defence system.

India had earlier imported two of these Israeli radars for its own use.

Earlier, in January, DRDO sources had said that a third test of the missile defence shield would involve both interceptor missiles and missile tracking radars.

While two earlier tests, in November 2006 and December 2007, successfully tested the Prithvi Air Defence (PAD -exo-atmospheric) and the Advanced Air Defence (AAD-endo-atmospheric) interceptor systems, the main thrust of the forthcoming tests would have been to validate the capabilities of the indigenously developed 'Swordfish' Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR).

Swordfish is a target-acquisition and fire-control radar designed for the country's missile defence system.

"The missile to be hit will be fired from a longer distance than it was in the earlier test. DRDO will test whether the radar can track the incoming missile from that distance or not," officials had said in January.

The radar will be instrumental in tracking an incoming hostile missile which will be intercepted by the PAD exo-atmospheric interceptor missile at an altitude over 80 km from earth, defence sources had said.

The programme is aimed at providing the country with a credible missile defence shield – primarily against missiles fielded by hostile neighbours Pakistan and China.

The Pakistani Hatf and Ghauri missiles, essentially hand-me-down versions of Chinese and North Korean missiles, have been touted as being India-specific. These tests are meant to simulate trajectories of these family of missiles.

Yesterday scientists had said that the 'enemy' missile would be a modified version of the Dhanush surface-to-surface missile and would simulate the terminal phase of the flight of a ballistic missile with a range of 1,500 km, similar to Pakistan's Ghauri missile.

"As the incoming missile nears Wheeler Island, a Prithvi air defence missile will be launched to intercept it at an altitude of about 80 km and kill it," the official added.

Scientists had also indicated yesterday that DRDO would need to carry out at least three to four further trials with both the endo and exo-atmospheric versions of the missile shield before declaring it operational.

"The test will mark the completion of the first phase of the programme and it will secure operational clearance by 2012-13," a scientist said.

Interestingly, though baptised as the Prithvi Air Defence system, the interceptor has now been renamed Pradyumna.

DRDO has affirmed that its system would be superior to the Russian S-300 and the American Patriot systems, both of which systems have been offered to India by its manufacturers.

why two different radars , LRTR and Swordfish (MFCR) to guide the same missile.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 06 Mar 2009 19:57

Swordfish is LRTR. The MFCR is Master-T i believe.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 06 Mar 2009 20:01

Vipul wrote:Video:India successfully tests interceptor missile.

Is it me or was the video all wrong? It looked like the interceptor is fired later from the ship with a range of 1500 km.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 06 Mar 2009 20:02

Thats right, target was fired from the ship and the interceptor from Wheeler islands

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Mar 2009 20:04

sunilUpa wrote:Congratulations!

HTK? It;s a gimballed warhead!

It must have been Gimballed Warhead.

The interceptor PAD missile will use, for the first time, the gimballed directional warhead. It has so far been used only in the U.S. and Russia. When the directional warhead fragments in 360 degrees all round, the target missile coming in from only one direction is sure to be blown up. “Ground tests have been done on the directional warhead. In flight, it will be done for the first time. This is a new thing,” the DRDO officials said.

PAD missile will use gimballed directional warhead for the first time

also:-
Light, lethal

A directional warhead weighs less than 30 kg but its lethality is equivalent to a 150-kg warhead. The PAD would also feature “trajectory optimisation” to enable interception at not only a higher altitude of 80 or 85 km but also at 45 km. It could engage missiles with a range of 300 to 1,500 km.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 06 Mar 2009 20:07

Kailash wrote:Thats right, target was fired from the ship and the interceptor from Wheeler islands

But the video shows the interceptor fired from ship at an incoming target.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Mar 2009 20:15

Dilbu wrote:
Kailash wrote:Thats right, target was fired from the ship and the interceptor from Wheeler islands
But the video shows the interceptor fired from ship at an incoming target.

video DDM!!!!
The end of the video itself says that the "Ghauri in disguise" was fired from a ship and video shows the ulta( the missile from the ship intercepting the PAD)!!!
Cant they make out such a simple contradiction before releasing the video?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 06 Mar 2009 21:24

Why does the video shoe PAD being launched from a ship ??

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Mar 2009 21:30

A krish wrote:Why does the video shoe PAD being launched from a ship ??

Is it so hard to read and comprehend the posts following the video?!

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Mar 2009 21:32

A krish wrote:Why does the video shoe PAD being launched from a ship ??

no its the Dhanush which is being intercepted by PAD in boost phase itself.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2009 21:38

Relax. The video is anotional concept to show how the interecpt works. if you look at it the incoming is cruise missile. Its not easy being DDM. They hardly get any support formt he officials either by way of footage or graphics. So they have to use exisitng youtube and edit with their own spin.

BTW, that was Dr. Santy for those who know him.

IMHO a bonus of this test was a naval/ship launched missile that has 1500km range. TSP will now worry everytime there are naval exercises in Arabian Sea.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 06 Mar 2009 21:40

ajay_ijn wrote:
A krish wrote:Why does the video shoe PAD being launched from a ship ??
no its the Dhanush which is being intercepted by PAD in boost phase itself.

Oh yes! It seems that they had detected Dhanush when its was being stored in the ship itself!