IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 28 Aug 2008 20:17

Sid wrote:
That was what the pilots of f-15's were saying . All those f-15s were shot with out they even knowing about it .
[off topic] i think effective RCS for any stealth fighter is measured from front. But there is nothing as total stealth as of now.

There were similar reports of EF and F-22 in air once and pilot said he got a blip on his radar (captor) when he encountered F-22. But it was later denied by USAF. But F-22 does employ some classified technologies and very high sensor fusion through which i can even control/take direct input from other UAV or air assets.

It was good that it didn't went against MKI

The key is not just seeing it once but seeing it long enough and with a strong enough signal to identify the aircraft, get a missile lock and then guide the weapon too it. You might see it for a few seconds while it is turning but then it is gone. The noise filtering algorithms in the radar might just block those inconsistent signals out as scatter or noise and so even if the Raptor reflects, it will not radiate with a consistency to be targeted.

The F-22 is a huge plane which stands out miles away during the day with its dark color. That is why the F-15s were reporting that they could see it visually but the radars weren't picking up anything they could shoot at. This means that the only way to kill it is to either take an IR shoot or plain old guns, both of which mean getting into a shooting position in the rear of the Raptor.

Perhaps the only way to kill the raptor is by laying out a bait and have another group of interceptors flank the raptor while it is making mince-meat of the bait. This would work only with significant numerical superiority or a significant degradation of the accompanying sensor package (AWACS leaving the station, the ECM package getting degraded etc.), and primarily during the day. It would be interesting to see how whether the Raptor's body has an IR signature which can be picked up at night.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Aug 2008 20:22

Could we please stop derailing this thread?

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 28 Aug 2008 20:50

http://livefist.blogspot.com/
it was a big blunder sending su30 there,how could iaf afford that?i already criticised it in earlier posts in this thread only and said that this will happen. anyways there are other methods to learn , and what was the use of su there when its sensors, radar were switched off.

we were not there to show our aerobatics, all that was required to learn there was strategy and it doent always require sus specially if you send experienced pilots. see US doesnt includes new stealths
that is how they prepared against mig21 when they got data,and later came new versions of aim-9,just wish pukis dont get them

one cannot say about operatibility requirements, but we could have managed other way round.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Aug 2008 22:12

I am sure, the emission has no signature that IAF would not otherwise like to be captured. BTW, why there in't any news on MKI->SEAD on those ELINTs?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Aug 2008 22:59

it was a big blunder sending su30 there,how could iaf afford that?i already criticised it in earlier posts in this thread only and said that this will happen.

namit dear, what makes you think that the IAF is ignorant of these nuggets of gyan that you are privy to ?

anyways there are other methods to learn ..........
............
all that was required to learn there was strategy and it doent always require sus specially if you send experienced pilots.

geez !! and your experience in aerial combat being ??
_____________________________________________________________
All that has happened till now is that IAF has detected two "unscheduled" c-135 class a/c during it's flights and has duly reported them to the bosses to be on the safe side.

It is not even confirmed that the a/c's were the ELINT version. Secondly, even if they were, "any" a/c in international airspace or in a foreign airspace is fair game. unless an US a/c penetrates Indian airspace to snoop, there is nothing to cry about.
snooping is a right of any nation.

IAF knew quite clearly what it was up against and certainly took enough precautions to avoid leaking info. and to think that IAF could join redflag with lesser a/c, that's just naive.

that is how they prepared against mig21 when they got data,and later came new versions of aim-9,just wish pukis dont get them

exactly what does that mean ?? the bisons performed well by virtue of good tactics not something else. and where from this aim-9 business come into all this ??
looks like you are behaving like an ignoramus. present credible links supporting your assertions and I'll withdraw that comment. if you can't, I'll deal with you as another ill informed troll.

you have time and again displayed an amazing lack of perception and an inability and/or unwillingness to learn. after a while your half-baked comments will get the treatment they deserve. please take this advice and clean up your act.

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 28 Aug 2008 23:00

Here are some sample images from the last week of the RF-N. The Su's took off on the best runway for lighting, and landed on the wrong one...again.

Anyways here are some offerings -

Other images of the IAF can be found here

RoKAF, French, and USAF photos can be found here

B/R
Kedar

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 28 Aug 2008 23:05

Though the Raptors didnt play, they were up in the air, and luckily for us recovered when we were around.

Here are a couple of shots -

B/R
Kedar

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Aug 2008 23:06

I think we are just getting paranoid about this, its not that IAF is a new kid on the block and is not aware of what side show could be expected.

Its very normal for nations to spy and gather as much as information as possible about competing aircraft , IAF takes care about their radio emmision and what they emit during such interaction with foreign nations

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 28 Aug 2008 23:09

Some of the other RF-N action -

Artsy one in the night -

Rafales crossing each other -

Aggressors crossing each other -

RoKAF - F-15K Slam Eagle -

Rafale taking off -

B/R
Kedar

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Aug 2008 23:15

wow! quality pics there mr karmarkar!

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 00:02

Thanks, glad you liked them

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Aug 2008 00:02

top of the line man !! /hat's off !

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 29 Aug 2008 01:48

Tough days at work. But when I see a photo of an MKI! Absolute beauty. Thank you so very much for these photos. Sincerely appreciated.

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 03:40

Thanks much folks.

Here's one more -

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Aug 2008 06:14

kedar.karmarkar wrote:
RoKAF, French, and USAF photos can be found here

B/R
Kedar

How did you get that pic of an F-15 with afterburner flying above the clouds?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Aug 2008 08:13

fantastic work. must have been tough standing guard all day out there.
its not for the faint of body and mind.

Shiv, it maybe a cropped pic of a F15 taking off steeply. thats why you
saar need to atleast buy a D90 with a F4/500mm type VR lens and a
tripod

kafir points will be deducted if you take a monopod.

good to see the rafale lugging those three big drop tanks while mki just
suits up and goes in to sort things out.

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 08:23

Thanks folks. Yep its all a day's hard work. In my first visit, the temps were almost 120-130 - and we were standing in the sun amidst the runways from 1430 to almost 1830, lugging all the camera gear with us. Last week the temps were cooler compared to first week, around 110-115, with some winds. On one day I drank almost 3 liters (one water, one gatorade, and one sobe) after getting out of the base. Most evenings were spent drinking beer with some of our guys at the Tropicana. Its not for the fainthearted for sure, but if one's blood starts to pump hearing all the jet engines spooling up, then its not really a grind - its fun

If you are referring to this picture -

it was taken from the speedway outside the base.

Thanks for the kind words all, glad you liked the pictures.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Aug 2008 08:29

kedar.karmarkar wrote: If you are referring to this picture [/img]

No. This one:

http://kedar.smugmug.com/gallery/580422 ... TzcaS-A-LB

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Aug 2008 08:44

Amazing pics!!!!

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Aug 2008 10:07

shiv wrote:
kedar.karmarkar wrote: If you are referring to this picture [/img]

No. This one:

http://kedar.smugmug.com/gallery/580422 ... TzcaS-A-LB

If I may venture to guess, this photo was taken from the ground itself but with a telephoto and the clouds being low give the impression of the plane among clouds. Note that the actual clouds are really very very far, but the telephoto has made the depth shallow.

Kedar - great pics - I could not chime in earlier and congratulate you on an amazing job!

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 29 Aug 2008 10:55

This means that the only way to kill it is to either take an IR shoot or plain old guns, both of which mean getting into a shooting position in the rear of the Raptor.

That's why many admire the erstwhile soviet style of mixing IR/RH seekers on long range AAMs. R-27T/ET would be beneficial in such scenerios. Sorry for the OT post.

Cheers...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Aug 2008 11:31

are people going to nellis for exercise allowed to go out on a daily basis to las vegas city or only the occasional
more organized trip?
is nellis having a civilian town of sorts outside with shops and bars or just a fenced patch in the desert?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Aug 2008 14:32

Full marks Karmarkar! Those pics were magnificent.The one of the IL-76 reinforces my viewpoint that it would be a perfect platform for an LRMP variant to replace the TU-142 Bear.I wonder why the Russians haven't yet done so.Perhaps with their new modernisation plans and cash in hand,they might well do so.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 29 Aug 2008 15:24

kedar.karmarkar wrote:Here are some sample images from the last week of the RF-N. The Su's took off on the best runway for lighting, and landed on the wrong one...again.

A
B/R
Kedar

Kedar

Pardon me are you saying the pilots made an error here Iif yes this is surprising MKI is state of art Pilot need to explain

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Aug 2008 15:41

The Su's took off on the best runway for lighting.....

that which is required for photography.
parasuram, mind being more legible in your sentences ?

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 29 Aug 2008 16:46

Rahul M wrote:
it was a big blunder sending su30 there,how could iaf afford that?i already criticised it in earlier posts in this thread only and said that this will happen.
namit dear, what makes you think that the IAF is ignorant of these nuggets of gyan that you are privy to ?
anyways there are other methods to learn ..........
............
all that was required to learn there was strategy and it doent always require sus specially if you send experienced pilots.
geez !! and your experience in aerial combat being ??
_____________________________________________________________
All that has happened till now is that IAF has detected two "unscheduled" c-135 class a/c during it's flights and has duly reported them to the bosses to be on the safe side.

It is not even confirmed that the a/c's were the ELINT version. Secondly, even if they were, "any" a/c in international airspace or in a foreign airspace is fair game. unless an US a/c penetrates Indian airspace to snoop, there is nothing to cry about.
snooping is a right of any nation.

IAF knew quite clearly what it was up against and certainly took enough precautions to avoid leaking info. and to think that IAF could join redflag with lesser a/c, that's just naive.
that is how they prepared against mig21 when they got data,and later came new versions of aim-9,just wish pukis dont get them
exactly what does that mean ?? the bisons performed well by virtue of good tactics not something else. and where from this aim-9 business come into all this ??
looks like you are behaving like an ignoramus. present credible links supporting your assertions and I'll withdraw that comment. if you can't, I'll deal with you as another ill informed troll.

you have time and again displayed an amazing lack of perception and an inability and/or unwillingness to learn. after a while your half-baked comments will get the treatment they deserve. please take this advice and clean up your act.

rahul m dont act like a professor ,whatever happened in past (to migs) is a story now and not everything is in text
as for proofs i dont need to give a **** about giving proofs to you
find it if you can

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 29 Aug 2008 16:56

Watch the cool pics and cool down guyz !!!!!!!!!

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 18:13

disha wrote:
shiv wrote: No. This one:

http://kedar.smugmug.com/gallery/580422 ... TzcaS-A-LB
If I may venture to guess, this photo was taken from the ground itself but with a telephoto and the clouds being low give the impression of the plane among clouds. Note that the actual clouds are really very very far, but the telephoto has made the depth shallow.

Kedar - great pics - I could not chime in earlier and congratulate you on an amazing job!

Bull's eye there - I couldnt have worded it better

rachit · Post by **rachit** » 29 Aug 2008 18:15

kedar, hats off sir! wonderful pics! and definately a pleasant surprise to see a few raptor pics, although, i still personally think that the flankers are the best looking planes in service today

kedar sir, if you dont mind, may i ask what camera / lens you use? Im into photography as well, but more into scenery / nature pics...but any info where i will be able to improve my kit will help...

many thnks!

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 18:21

Singha wrote:are people going to nellis for exercise allowed to go out on a daily basis to las vegas city or only the occasional
more organized trip?
is nellis having a civilian town of sorts outside with shops and bars or just a fenced patch in the desert?

Nellis is not a town or city, it is just a base which lies 10-12 miles away from Las Vegas. For the folks on exercise there was no time on weekdays, and certainly had no time on the first weekend. The morning launch guys would come in at around 1100-1130 in the morning, launch at around 1430 in the afternoon, return by around 1800, debrief used to go till late night. The second launch folks used to come in around 1800, launch at 2230, and come back after debrief around 0300-0400 in the morning. But I heard after the exercises, our guys headed up the Grand Canyon, or had some local trips.

In short, the flying guys dont have time to roam around with an active exercise going on.

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 18:24

parshuram wrote:
kedar.karmarkar wrote:Here are some sample images from the last week of the RF-N. The Su's took off on the best runway for lighting, and landed on the wrong one...again.

A
B/R
Kedar
Kedar

Pardon me are you saying the pilots made an error here Iif yes this is surprising MKI is state of art Pilot need to explain

Nope - our guys were perfect. I am saying they landed on runway assigned by ATC - but it was the "wrong" runway from photography perspective - we would be shooting into the sun, when there was another runway out there which was perfectly lit up by the setting sun, and would have been more apt.

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 18:27

rachit wrote:kedar, hats off sir! wonderful pics! and definately a pleasant surprise to see a few raptor pics, although, i still personally think that the flankers are the best looking planes in service today

kedar sir, if you dont mind, may i ask what camera / lens you use? Im into photography as well, but more into scenery / nature pics...but any info where i will be able to improve my kit will help...

many thnks!

I use a D3 with a 200-400, though I have a backup of D200 with either a 70-200 or a 18-200, depends.

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 18:27

Thanks for the compliments, all you folks - Really glad you enjoyed my photos.

B/R
Kedar

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Aug 2008 19:14

btw, did our rambhas had ram coatings on them at nellis?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Aug 2008 19:26

kedar, I hope you will cover all IAF exercises in the future !
may be IAF will even sponsor you if you forward a link of your site to them !

btw, do you have any idea of the type of ops the su's took part in ??
details have been woefully sketchy to satisfy a jingo !

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 Aug 2008 19:29

Kedar, I dont need to add any more well deserved praise than whats already here!

Going on at this for days on end requires some super human interest and effort. Three days at Aero India is enough for me to get fed up, yet you are going on here for days over weeks.

I am curious, how many shots do you take in a typical day at RF-N? How many thousands have you taken by now?

Shots like these are rare in India - I have mostly seen them come straight in and land.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Aug 2008 19:36

namit k wrote: rahul m dont act like a professor ,whatever happened in past (to migs) is a story now and not everything is in text
as for proofs i dont need to give a **** about giving proofs to you
find it if you can

looks like you are a bit hazy about how internet forums work. if you sprout ill-conceived ideas and refuse to back them up, you will only find yourself in choppy water. I couldn't care less what you think of me but I can't allow you to derail this thread with juvenile rants. again, back up your comments with facts or I'll have to simply delete further nonsense from you, no questions asked.

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 29 Aug 2008 20:07

I beg to differ.I love the "JAGs".The muscular armoured look with the customary "swagger" during landings is macho.The grey camo has made the JAGs look a little docile.The sukhois look like FTV models in comparision

kedar.karmarkar · Post by **kedar.karmarkar** » 29 Aug 2008 20:08

Jagan wrote:Kedar, I dont need to add any more well deserved praise than whats already here!

Going on at this for days on end requires some super human interest and effort. Three days at Aero India is enough for me to get fed up, yet you are going on here for days over weeks.

I am curious, how many shots do you take in a typical day at RF-N? How many thousands have you taken by now?

Shots like these are rare in India - I have mostly seen them come straight in and land.

Thanks Jagan - I took around ~700-800 shots per day, depending on the activity. And then when you go again, you kind of wisen up, and then search for different angles which one didnt get before.
The Su shot was taken from the Speedway outside the base, where they turn base before final, hence you get the side-on left wing raised shot. But again one needs to run back and forth bcos each aircraft turns at a different spot for the base and final, some turn long some turn short.

But in the end, its all worth the effort

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 29 Aug 2008 20:09

Kedar Sir,

Awesome pics. Kudos to you. Thanks.

Wonder what you could do with the YF-23 .....

namit k wrote:rahul m dont act like a professor ,whatever happened in past (to migs) is a story now and not everything is in text
as for proofs i dont need to give a **** about giving proofs to you
find it if you can

Namit, I have hung around these boards for a long time. Trust me. This is not a board of fantasies. People here know a lot more than you realize.

So cool down. Ask in a polite way. You will surprised by the quality of answers you receive.

Regards,
Ashish