Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

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Sanku
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

negi wrote:If we join politics who will pay tax for country's growth ? :mrgreen:
Nanha Negi has truly grown up. I fully endorse the view. Politics in the country effects everyone, but that hardly means that everyone must (or should) become active politician. There are many other ways in which a country can be served.

Engaging in politics also does not mean that one should either have 0% political views, or be a 100% politician -- every time one of us makes a effort to keep ourselves informed and makes a comment on that basis, informed comment, one engages in the political process.

In fact what we want is a mainstream public constantly engaging at all levels in politics rather than a narrow definition of politics.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

So chopper scam successfully sidelined?
SagarAg
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by SagarAg »

ramana wrote:So chopper scam successfully sidelined?
a-probe-set-up-for-failure

A JPC without documents, investigations or even an FIR on which to base its inquiry in the AgustaWestland bribes case cannot perform a meaningful role

The solution offered by Congress leaders on how to uncover the truth behind allegations of bribery in the acquisition of helicopters from AgustaWestland

is that a Joint Parliamentary Committee (JPC) be formed which should, among other actions, chase the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) to register a First Information Report (FIR).

Union Minister for Parliamentary Affairs Kamal Nath and Mr. K. Keshava Rao of the Congress Party mooted and defended this idea despite a walkout by the Opposition over the suggestion of a JPC. Irrespective, a JPC on Choppergate has been announced with 10 members from the Rajya Sabha and 20 from the Lok Sabha, and backed by the United Progressive Alliance, the Bahujan Samaj Party and the Samajwadi Party.
Past experience

In reality, a JPC on this alleged defence bribery case can achieve little going by the experience of other JPCs — particularly the JPC on the 2G scam headed by Congressman P.C. Chacko, and the politics of its internal functioning. The most crucial aspect of the investigation of the alleged bribery case relates to identifying the money trail, since both the country of origin and the amount of bribe are known. But this is hardly a task for the JPC, since it has neither the investigating power nor the powers to liaison with international governments to establish the route or recipients of the alleged illegal payments.

Second, unlike the 2G JPC which was formed nearly one year after the FIR was filed in October 2009, and post the Supreme Court order of December 16, 2010, to monitor the CBI investigation, the defence scandal has nothing to offer except a Preliminary Enquiry (PE). The proposition that the JPC should chase, direct or question the CBI to file an FIR, is simply unworkable and also reverses established procedure — converting the JPC into a reporting authority for the CBI, which it is not.

Additionally, the JPC on 2G, whose meetings have been marred by walkouts, disagreements and sharp divide, shows that it began its sittings after thousands of pages of documents and files from the Department of Telecommunications (DoT), the Prime Minister’s Office and the Finance Ministry were made accessible to it. This included the over 1,300 pages of annexures produced by the Shivraj Patil One Man Committee.

Though the JPC is under no compulsion to take cognizance of Supreme Court judgments or the Comptroller and Auditor General of India reports, the availability of such reports and judicial orders offer invaluable guidance since Constitutional bodies and professionals have already delivered verdicts based on which the inquiry of the JPC becomes meaningful and contextual. None of this exists where the alleged bribery case is concerned.
Material available

Neither the Congress nor the CBI has offered any real defence on why a matter that was first raised by a private TV channel in March 2012, has not led to the registration of an FIR. Congress spokespersons have hinted that there may not be enough material to register an FIR. This is plain, simple wrong.

Just as in the case of the alleged bribery case, where the wrongdoers are yet to be identified, the 2G FIR, which was just seven paragraphs across two pages, in the absence of specific names was registered on October 22, 2009, in the name of “unknown officials of Deptt. Of Telecommunication, Govt. of India, Unknown Private persons, Companies and Others.”

Since no details were available, the charge was limited to “the concerned officials of DoT in criminal conspiracy with private persons/companies by abusing their official position, granted UAS Licenses to a few select companies at nominal rate by rejecting the applications of others without any valid reasons, thereby causing wrongful loss to the Government of India and a corresponding wrongful gain to private persons/companies estimated to be more than Rs.22,000 crores.” A bald — without names — charge of wrongdoing, with a mere estimate of loss. Further, it levied offences under 120-B IPC r/w section 13(2) r/w 13(1)(d) of the Prevention of Corruption Act 1998 against unknown persons.

These scant details were sufficient to turn out two detailed charge sheets, including a 63-page charge sheet filed 18 months later on April 2, 2011, naming former Telecom Minister, A. Raja and five other government and private sector individuals. A second charge sheet was filed later in the year in which the CBI revised its loss figure to Rs.30,984.55 crore while levying several new sections of the IPC including 420, 468, 471, 109 and 19(1)(a) which were absent during the FIR. This shows that nothing prevents the CBI from immediately registering an FIR in the arms scandal.
Diluting scrutiny

In effect, a JPC without documents, investigations and a basic FIR cannot perform a meaningful role, which amounts to a tactical victory for the Congress by diverting from the real issue of investigating the money trail and seeking international cooperation, for which the registration of a case in India and an alignment with international treaty of that country are condition precedent.

Regardless of the Congress’s assurances, that the JPC will conclude its investigation in a short period of time, the JPC is not bound by slippery political platitudes and makes its own rules. Even if the JPC meets within March, its work can easily be extended, as in the case of 2G, to next year, an election year which will make its functioning conveniently irregular.

Finally, the politics within the 2G JPC shows that even the most important prime accused (Mr. Raja) has been successfully kept out of the JPC, at least till date, while additionally blocking the appearance of the Prime Minister and the Finance Minister, both of whom are very germane to the mandate of the JPC and its outcome.
Deft politics

Ironically, what should have been a win for the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has left them in an embarrassing situation, wherein after stalling the house for over a month while demanding a JPC on the 2G scam, the Party is now seen opposing the setting up of a JPC on the alleged bribery case, while the Congress, led by Mr. Kamal Nath is only too keen to grant them one.
JPC blocks RTI

The JPC also conveniently moves the attention away from televised national debates. The JPC works perfectly for Congress as it is not only secretive in its proceedings, except for media briefings by the Chairman if he so chooses, but is well within its right, as in case of the JPC on 2G, to impose a blanket ban on all information by invoking Section 8(c) of the RTI Act, which specifically, with respect to the JPC and its privileges, can exempt “information, the disclosure of which would cause a breach of privilege of Parliament or the State Legislature.”

The JPC now becomes the magic wand to shut any evidence-based discourse either in Parliament or outside in the alleged arms bribery case, aided by the CBI, which is in no hurry to either file an FIR or show results, even after an FIR is filed, as in the 2G matter.
Its not only side lined saar but also put under the official cover up called JPC as explained by the article. The CONgress is conning again and again and again out in the open I am amazed how in the world its still in power. :shock: The mulla party(SP) and its bhenji party Sushri Kumari Mayawati bhenji(BSP) must have been rained with at least billion of dollars to continue their a** licking support to CONgress. :evil:
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by sourab_c »

Posting in this thread due to its relation to the chopper scam discussed a few pages back.

Also worth noting is how little attention media is giving to this news. It is clearly being suppressed.

Marines charged with murder won't return to India, says Italy
Two Italian marines charged in India with killing two fishermen while on anti-piracy duty will not return from a special home visit granted to allow them to vote in last month's general election, the Italian foreign ministry said on Monday.
The ministry said that India had not
responded to Italian requests to seek a diplomatic solution to the case and there was now a formal dispute between the two countries over the terms of the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea.

"Italy has informed the Indian government that, given the formal initiation of an international dispute between the two states, the marines Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone will not return to India at the end of their home leave."
Surya
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Surya »

truly a banana republic

:(

well at least this lays to rest that our top court was not corrupt
pentaiah
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by pentaiah »

I predicted that way back as soon as the incident happened
SaiK
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by SaiK »

our top court has no logistics regarding international criminals. why would a criminal outside their country get a chance to vote. this definition of democracy to India is totally different. Even the elite misuse or just don't understand. we the people are either totally cheated or emotionally driven to events. period.

--

btw, just to note how our courts are ill-informed and/or totally stupid:

http://countrybred.com/countrybred/the-italian-vote/ Italians living abroad are able to vote in most Italian elections via absentee ballot through the mail
Last edited by SaiK on 12 Mar 2013 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
Nikhil T
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Nikhil T »

Surya wrote:truly a banana republic

:(

well at least this lays to rest that our top court was not corrupt
It was the GoI which did not set up the special court to try the Italian Marines, even after the SC order and reminder. So lets not confuse who is to blame here. More in the India-EU dhaaga.
SaiK
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by SaiK »

why is there not checks and balances regarding how GoI can play politics? Even the solo super power democracy can not overrule court checks.
Eric Leiderman
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Eric Leiderman »

We all expected this u scratch my back I will do the same.
The VVIP helo deal will implicate small fry and the big fish will be off the hook
No deep digging, our CBI is under the thumb of the politicians, so we cant expect anything fm that end.

This is playing out like a b grade movie, the basic story end is pretty much known at the start.

The GOI will now throw a few lakh rupees at the fisherman , a few of the right comments will be made as time passes there will be no outcome.

This is the second recent instance where the SC is playing 2nd fiddle to the administration ex Army Chief interview alluded to the same a few weeks back



T
SaiK
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by SaiK »

actually, people at large.. are gullible, and stupid to wanting such a system in place. why blame to GoI, when people had voted for them? why doesn't people want to think about reducing and right sizing everything in the Indian gov setup. what a waste of democratic setup.. all these 66 years of Gandian waste!
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Philip »

So the Italians have done as predicted,"flown the coop",cocking a snoop at the GOI and the MEA in particular! It is amazing how our diplomacy has plummeted ever since Salman-the-Kursed took charge.To add insult to injury,the Italian govt. now accuses India of not playing the game.Theatre of the absurd.

I suppose to placate the Italians,we will now order vast qtys. of arms from them in genuflection to Mother S. at Home,and the "bunga bunga" boys back in Rome.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Pranav »

SaiK wrote:actually, people at large.. are gullible, and stupid to wanting such a system in place. why blame to GoI, when people had voted for them? why doesn't people want to think about reducing and right sizing everything in the Indian gov setup. what a waste of democratic setup.. all these 66 years of Gandian waste!
Actually the situation is worse than that ... folks have no problem with going to press buttons on a box time to time, regardless of whether the final outcome has anything to do with how many folks pressed what button.

Anyway, Darwin's law will continue to apply.
Philip
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Philip »

Heard from the grapevine.The "Italian Job" that has just taken place is even more intriguing than one imagines.
Fat hope that they will return before March 22nd.So what will then happen as there is so much of outrage in the country?

Act 1: India will take some strong measures for appearing tough,most probably expelling the ambassador/mil attaches whoever.But this is the funny part.This is what the Italians expect so that they can accuse India of bullying them-they already have said that we are at fault over the Marines issue,shut shop regarding the AW scandal ,refuse to hand over any details to India,the threads of which threaten to unravel all the way back to Cong HQ! Thus,the Italian mafia in India are killing two birds with one stone.The entire AW scandal will fizzle out,the Cong. will trumpet nothing wrong happened-where was the scam and when the dust settles down Act 2 will be played out.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Austin »

Seems EU squeeze on GOI has worked and GOI has released these two guys tacitly with the understanding that big names wont come out on Chopper Scam ..... There was little any ways GOI can do , taking on EU country or a NATO nation is not for the faint hearted considering we didnt manage to take on our pidly Western neighbour .....Its Easy for GOI to take on home criticism which will fade out in some time then to take on EU nation who will squeeze GOI balls knowing how corrupt they are and black mail them.

Eventually its our own corruption that has made us give up meekly but its not the first time GOI did and wont be the last !
Last edited by Austin on 13 Mar 2013 09:20, edited 1 time in total.
Austin
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Austin »

Surya wrote:truly a banana republic
:(
A Friendly suggestion , Watch the Iron Fist video and get your adrenaline going , Do you need the u tube link :P
Surya
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Surya »

Austin

I would have felt better with Nirbhay working flawlessly :P
Eventually its our own corruption that has made us give up meekly but its not the first time GOI did and wont be the last !
sigh

more depressing
Philip
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Philip »

India's Achilles heel.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 957586.cms

Dependence on foreign suppliers for military hardware is harming national security
ByArun Prakash | Mar 14, 2013,
The latest episode of alleged corruption in a deal to purchase Italian helicopters for the IAF's VIP Squadron constitutes yet another blow to India's national security. The most detrimental consequence of the ongoing probe into wrongdoing — the CBI has registered a case yesterday — is the harm that it will cause to the morale, cohesion and self-esteem of the armed forces.

No matter what the final outcome of enquiries by the investigating agencies — and past precedent shows that they rarely come to any definitive conclusion — serious damage has already been done to this esteemed institution.

However, a deeper malaise and far more toxic threat to national security, of which this incident is yet one more symptom, is India's abject dependence on foreign sources for military hardware. It is no secret that the Indian armed forces are equipped, overwhelmingly, with platforms and systems acquired from Russia, Israel, the UK, France, Italy and the US, amongst others. Even when we claim that a tank, ship, submarine or aircraft is 'indigenously built', the fact that seldom emerges is that 70%-80% of the electronics, weaponry and other vital systems that go into it are imported.

India's past experience has clearly demonstrated the multiple penalties that we pay for this external dependence. The Comptroller and Auditor General, in his annual report to Parliament, regularly highlights the proportion of our imported tanks, artillery, submarines, fighters and radars that are out of action, thus degrading the combat-readiness of our forces.

There does not seem to be any appreciation of the stark fact that every piece of hardware that the Indian armed forces acquire from abroad places them at the mercy of the seller nation for 30-40 years thereafter. The nonchalance with which we continue to import huge quantities of arms not only undermines our security but renders all talk of 'strategic autonomy' meaningless.

India is fortunate to have a vast defence technology and industrial base (DTIB) which would be the envy of developed nations. This base comprises thousands of talented scientists working in a network of sophisticated DRDO laboratories backed by the advanced production facilities of the ordinance factories and defence public sector units (DPSUs).

And yet, India's DTIB has rendered our armed forces hollow by failing to deliver, for six decades, capabilities they direly need. A willing and capable private sector has been kept out of defence production while the DPSUs have hoodwinked the nation with spurious claims of 'technology transfer' and 'indigenisation'.

It is deeply disturbing to note that no one in India's national security establishment, comprising the political leadership, scientists and bureaucrats, has seen fit to demand accountability for this gaping void in national capability. Worse still, no roadmap has been drawn up for attaining self-sufficiency in weapon systems. India's massive arms imports constitute a double jeopardy for the nation. Not only do they constitute a serious security compromise, they also extract a heavy moral price as corruption scandals erupt with regularity, smearing the country's good name and eroding its self-respect.

Banning or 'blacklisting' of arms companies alleged to be involved in malpractices may appear to be a dramatic antidote. But in reality, it is counterproductive because it harms our security far more than the impugned firm. The army's artillery wing has not received a new gun for 30 years because the MoD has blacklisted every reputed gun manufacturer on the basis of allegations. By disarming ourselves in this manner, we are thoughtlessly fulfilling the fondest dreams of our adversaries.

It is time for Indians to ask why every foreign arms manufacturer feels compelled to offer bribes in India even when marketing a product which could win the competition purely on its superior qualities or price. The answer is devastatingly simple: because they are convinced, and know from past precedent, that no arms deal ever goes through in India — regardless of the product's merit — without kickbacks being paid. The only service that the so-called middlemen provide is to advise their principals whom to bribe how much.

So deep-rooted is this conviction amongst foreign companies that no amount of fiddling with defence procurement procedures or insistence on 'Integrity Pacts' will deter them from offering bribes as insurance that their deal is not scuttled — either by some influence-peddler in Delhi's back-alleys or by a frustrated rival.

According to one viewpoint, parties across the political spectrum see the arms import business as a veritable golden goose for election funding, and are obviously loath to kill it by encouraging the indigenous arms industry. Since alleged scams come in handy to settle political scores, we have witnessed, since the 1980s, every single major defence contract getting embroiled in allegations of corruption and kickbacks. Consequently India's defence modernisation has come to a grinding halt at a time when China's defence budget has hit a new high and AfPak poses a deadly potential menace.

In this grave scenario, India's decision-makers and politicians can take two major initiatives which will help salve wounded national pride and serve the cause of national security. One is to launch a 25-year public-private 'national mission' to attain self-sufficiency in arms; if we start today, we may wean ourselves off foreign dependence by 2038. The other is to get all political parties to sign an Integrity Pact in which they will, in the national interest, undertake to treat defence purchases as sacrosanct and seek election funding from other sources.

The writer is former chief of the Indian Navy.
Aditya_V
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Aditya_V »

Anther thing we need to discuss the role of MOD babus, the Coffingate comes to Mind. When George Fernandes ordered emergency purchases to be made during Kargil in 1999. Papers show he had no role to play in those coffin purchases, but some MOD babu made sure that those undefendable purchases were made to Tarnish him when little scrutiny would have been done given the criticality.

Then info leaked to media to hand the INC an issue on a platter. Just shows how deep rooted the system was and how desperate they got in 1998.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Well, as I said earlier - the highlighting of the role of former COAS ACM Tyagi is the smokescreen to deflect the attention from main culprits. The powers that be know that in case of a defense scandal at this penultimate state of next General Election, the trial will be in the media and not courts. In the courts, Her Majesty's Service - Congress Bureau of India AKA CBI - can be expected to manage the case.

But a trial in the media in 2013 will ensure that Bofors looks like a walk in the park...and Congis know the power of social media to affect them negatively too well. So, ACM Tyagi is the scapegoat for the media trial - phrases and catch lines like 'first Service Chief named in bribery case' etc will ensure the focus of mango abdul stays on these non-entities. I'm bloody sure that in terms of actual content of the entire selection process, nothing is going to come out against Tyagi. That does not mean that I place him above suspicion in terms of getting money for the job - my contention is that if he got paid, it was for simply the errand boy.

The intervention of PMO in the helicopter deal at a time when it was on its way into completion shows who pulled the strings and where money went into. The same PMO intervention would have brought the SPG into the equation with their added concerns of manin cargo hold dimensions and requirement being jacked up by 50% to 12 helicopters.

All in all, a very smooth operation as far as the main puppeteers are concerned.

These two points highlight what went wrong (or, right, depending on whom you refer to) in the entire process:
In such a situation, an intervention by the principal secretary to the prime minister and the silent acquiescence by the MoD and the air force HQ speaks volumes of the arbitrariness of the way this procurement was handled. Had the PMO addressed its concerns to the defence minister as head of the defence acquisition council and let matters evolve till the proposal came to the cabinet committee on security, it would have acted in keeping with the letter and spirit of the procurement procedure. By stooping to take on the role of changing the SQRs, it acted arbitrarily and in violation of the procedures. If IAF professionals then acted as mere doormats, it is indeed a sad reflection.This is where ACM Tyagi could have acted subservient to powers that be...if he has received money, it is more akin to sweat equity in a deal
The MoD release claims that “the procurement case was progressed in accordance with the established procurement procedure in a transparent manner with all stages of procurement being followed meticulously”. On the contrary, agencies external to the defence procurement process interfered at two crucial junctures. First, to halt procurement of a selected helicopter in the final stages and then to meddle with SQRs to allow the AgustaWestland helicopter to enter the race. By remaining a mute spectator, the MoD and the air force HQ became complicitWell - we know MOD would not have dared say anything against directives of PMO (READ: THE FAMILY). It is ACM Tyagi's role which shows that even top Service guys can be compromised.. The rest is history and the chickens are now coming home to roost.
And the real crux:
Now that the Central Bureau of Investigation has initiated a preliminary inquiry and the Rajya Sabha debated the issue and set up a joint parliamentary committee, the choppergate typhoon that hit New Delhi will pass, soon to be forgotten. If past performance is any indicator, the end is predictable. A few reputations and careers of servicemen will be destroyed, the arms agents will move on to the next deal and the real perpetrators and beneficiaries will live to enrich themselves another day, and all that the nation will be left with are the SQRs with their sanctity open to abuse and the morale of the armed forces further eroded
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

TVR Shenoy, is one brilliant Indian journalist that I completely respect. Read in full.

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/marin ... 130315.htm

Marines and chopper deal: 'Italian Hand' at work?
'We seem to be reliving the sleaziest days of the 1980s,' says T V R Shenoy.
In May 1985 Rajiv Gandhi [ Images ] -- then still bearing the halo of the 'Mr Clean' of Indian politics -- told Parliament that his government was against purchasing Westland A-30 helicopters. The gist of his statement was: 'I know something about aviation. And I would not accept the Westland-30 even if it were offered free.'

Ten months later then civil aviation minister Jagdish Tytler announced that India had agreed to purchase 21 Westland A-30s, the same helicopters that his prime minister had publicly described as unsafe.

There must have been something in the air that March of 1986; it was the same month that India signed the Bofors deal.

Rajiv Gandhi's first instincts were correct. The Westland-30 was a disastrous choice. One crashed in Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ], another crashed in Nagaland, and pilots were refusing to fly them. The engine needed servicing every 70 hours. The rotor capacity was poor.

It turned out that the Westland-30 had never been tested with a full load in India's tropical climate
.
.............................................
The story of that first great folly of the Rajiv Gandhi ministry does not end there. That junk came in useful when AgustaWestland wanted to route kickbacks in 2007.
Global Trade and Commerce, a company belonging to Christian Michel, one of the middlemen in the VVIP helicopter deal, was paid 18 million Euros, supposedly to buy back the 19 helicopters.
......
There are two parallels between 1986 and 2007, namely the manufacturer and the missing tests to see whether the helicopters were suitable for India's harsh climate.

Field tests were conducted only in Britain. And those for the Sikorsky S-92, a rival model under consideration, were held only in the United States. This is a clear breach of the standing orders, and any investigation must hold those responsible to account.

Someone then took a bad situation and made it worse. After the deal was signed somebody in India decided to add three parameters to the AgustaWestland AW 101.

First, a Traffic Collusion Avoidance System (TCAS II) was added.

Second, an Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System was added. Third, Medevac systems were added.

Here is how such scams operate. Step One: Deliberately ignore certain essential parameters when floating a tender.

Step Two: Choose a supplier (after suitable 'negotiations'), and sign a contract.

Step Three: 'Discover' the importance of the missing parameters after the contract is signed.

Step Four: Negotiate a new, obviously higher, price for fitting in the fresh requirements.

The difference between the original price and renegotiated price is where there is scope for making money.

Interestingly, there are reports from 'sources' -- Delhi code for deliberate leaks -- that Pranab Mukherjee's [ Images ] finance ministry raised same questions about the changing of parameters in 2009. This reminds me of the same ministry's famous note on the 2G spectrum scam, which seemed to implicate not just A Raja but also P Chidambaram

his is the same substandard work that led to the release of the two Italian Marines, Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone. The excuse offered was that Italy [ Images ] does not permit postal ballots in a general election, something that Additional Solicitor General P P Malhotra reportedly could not rebut.

Why not? Fed the string 'Italy postal ballots', Google took precisely 0.43 seconds to provide the information that Italy does permit postal voting.

Now, do you see why I said we seem to be reliving the sleaziest days of the 1980s?

Defence purchases are made under controversial circumstances, and nobody is held accountable.

Shoddy staffwork leads to suspects leaving India, and it is virtually impossible to lay hands on them again once they are out.

The same shabby acts of commission (pun fully intended) and omission. The same stale excuses.

Is it also the same 'fine Italian hand' at work?
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

the three systems enhancements cited above are not in themselves all that suspicious - they may have been amended due to the availability of new releases or certification process completion. such changes are not necessarily controvertial in complex system purchases

all that is required is transparency in the procurement process -and that is where we have issues
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Lalmohan wrote:the three systems enhancements cited above are not in themselves all that suspicious - they may have been amended due to the availability of new releases or certification process completion. such changes are not necessarily controvertial in complex system purchases
Indeed and that is why as rohit says, it is a very smooth operation
Step Three: 'Discover' the importance of the missing parameters after the contract is signed.
Finding out that things were missed out earlier, either after the negotiations start,or prior, could be either scope creep or scam. Very difficult to say from outside.

However we know that this was a scam now, no one even on BRF had alleged scam on this, even when there were reports of FM questioning the modalities of the deal.
Sunilchurchill
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sunilchurchill »

The shows goes on...next stop..another Company on way to being blacklisted....deprive the armed forces of their modernization...unleash the CBI.. pathetic state of affairs...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/new-e ... s/1089612/
Sanku
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Sunilchurchill wrote:The shows goes on...next stop..another Company on way to being blacklisted....deprive the armed forces of their modernization...unleash the CBI.. pathetic state of affairs...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/new-e ... s/1089612/
Best news, send this guy and all others to salt mines as well.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by pentaiah »

In corruption Kashmir say kanya kumari thak Bharat ek hai

The state of union is run under coalition dharma

Money Maker Singh zinda bad
SaiK
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by SaiK »

why have these middlemen and then find them contempt of cheating the nation with bribes or commissions. now commissions are legal if it is allowed per sales contracts. if it is illegal, why would both the buyer and seller not aware of this?, especially GoI should have clear text saying these even in the RFI.

wtf cares about black listing now.. that is beyond any one's control.. cause they can come in a different name, handle or home grown like how bofors did. i am more concerned on the legal setup itself. we have big loop holes, bigger problems in just understanding texts. is it English/Hindi or language the problem? which I doubt.

basically, our setup itself is corrupted. politicians are the biggest #1 people who are responsible., and people keep liking them, cause people behind them are part and parcel of this game.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by putnanja »

Details of most sensitive Army procurements leaked
...
...
A fresh set of documents received last week by the defence ministry and the CBI, on Verma's dealings and his connections with small arms manufacturer Sig Sauer, contain a detailed fact-sheet prepared on February 28, 2011 for the then Army Chief Gen V K Singh, detailing 45 most-sensitive capital procurement cases, along with the progress in each of them.

The top-secret document, described as genuine by officials and other sources in the military establishment, gives precise details of the name, purpose, quantity and progress of the Army's most critical procurement projects.

The document was apparently leaked from Army HQ within weeks of being prepared and was allegedly mailed by Verma's associate to his then US-based escrow fund manager C Edmonds Allen.
..
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The document also discusses in detail the required quantity of launchers and missiles, along with the project-update for the Army's next generation anti-tank guided missiles, the Army's requirement for 3-D radars, description of the Army's tactical and mobile communication systems, required quantities and updates of the four main personal infantry weapons projects and the total requirement of ammunition for various branches of the Army.

The CBI, which has confirmed that it has received the new set of documents, will probe allegations that the secret contents were shared with at least two companies — Sig Sauer and Rhienmetall AD — on Verma's instructions.
...
SaiK
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by SaiK »

I can find many defence products made in India as useless and worthless as it does not generate a penny for middlemen, babooze and and their clout. IA should work towards indigenous products to help clean the environment to begin with... an oppty, to show their support for home grown corruption less products.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by VinodTK »

Chopper scam: SP Tyagi was indeed bribed, CBI report says
NEW DELHI: The CBI's initial investigations into the AgustaWestland scam has found that former IAF chief SP Tyagi was indeed bribed by middlemen around the same time - 2004-2005 - that his cousins were given money, highly placed sources said.

However, the bribe amount remains "unquantified" and CBI is also yet to find the trail of this money but the agency suspects that one of the middlemen of Finmeccanica brought the money to India. CBI sources said they will soon start questioning the accused people in the case after all the documents are analyzed.

Meanwhile, CBI has reportedly shared crucial documents with the Enforcement Directorate (ED) showing money trail of the alleged Rs 362 crore kickback in the VVIP chopper deal.

Officials said they had found several documents showing money paid to Tyagi's cousins and they had to get hold of some bank papers. The agency has found that 1.26 lakh euros and another 2 lakh euros was paid to the Tyagi brothers (Julie, Docsa and Sandeep Tyagi) sometime in 2004, much before SP Tyagi became the IAF chief."
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member_22539
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by member_22539 »

^Let this be a lesson to all foreign equipment loving generals, marshals, etc. You drool over and buy foreign stuff at your own peril. Even if you didn't get a rupee in bribes, you are still gonna hang. If you know what is good for you, buy local stuff.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by pentaiah »

Boss I have dealt with ok dwelt with supplying OFP HAL defense PSU, even the best equipment will get buyer attention unless you start wining and dying, this starts at the phase of making them look at your product literature...

Are you busy in the evening is most often asked question, not specs or performance

In the 80s they used buy good stuff as then they believed in ethics a little and follwed the adage
"Cheat me in the price but not in the goods" but now let's start with cheat sheets don't worry about charge sheets
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Arun Menon wrote:^Let this be a lesson to all foreign equipment loving generals, marshals, etc. You drool over and buy foreign stuff at your own peril. Even if you didn't get a rupee in bribes, you are still gonna hang. If you know what is good for you, buy local stuff.
What a stupid post. This is a equipment brought at express interests of the PMO. Yet the poster has no compuction in ascribing sentiments pulled out their mussharraff on the IAF.

Yet those who want to basically attack Indian armed forces under some guise, will not selectively distort reality to call names to forces. And this is now allowed on BRF.

Wow.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

pentaiah wrote:Boss I have dealt with ok dwelt with supplying OFP HAL defense PSU, even the best equipment will get buyer attention unless you start wining and dying, this starts at the phase of making them look at your product literature...
Right Saar, DRDO labs themselves have HUGE amount of power for contracts, sub contracts and discretionary spending. There are more than enough bad eggs there as well.

In my personal experience of knowing the corruption in such matters, the forces involvement in 1% where as MoD is about 99% including the Babu's and other non-Babu people.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Austin »

From what I know any arms deal needs approval from MOD + DRDO + Armedforces + CCSA ....all defence deal go through this chain but not necessarily in that order. Only amount of certain threshold is something MOD + Defence service is clears without going though CCSA.

DRDO approval is absolutely necessary to get the go ahead in foreign buy , case to point is the Barak-1 deal when initially DRDO objected as Trishul was under works and trials , since the trials went too long and there was technical glitches then the Navy invoked some kind of absolute necessary clause as no AMS ( anti missile system ) was available and Pakistan had Harpoon that needed some kind of hard kill defence on ships specially capital ones like Aircraft carrier and Destroyers etc ......so condition to the fact that Navy would purchase Trishul when it was read a go ahead was given by DRDO to purchase 8 Barak-1 AMS system , hence the Bhramaputra P-16A was also launched without its SAM but after 1-2 years it was clear Trishul was cancelled due to technical challenges and more Barak-1 came in.

Blaming Tyagi as the only person who took bribe or something of that nature is to find a scapegoat for what is clearly a case of Bribe being taken at the highest level of Political Decision making and at the haste that this deal went through , the weakest link seems to be ACM Tyagi and CBI is being used to frame him so as to take away attention from other much bigger stake holders.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Aditya_V »

Austin-> The DRDO approval was a GF mandated clause, I think the saint has rescinded that clause subsequently under the new defense procurement policy which stated 30% local inputs.

Offcouse, blaming Tyagi and not political masters is not correct.
Sanku
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Aditya_V wrote:Austin-> The DRDO approval was a GF mandated clause, I think the saint has rescinded that clause subsequently under the new defense procurement policy which stated 30% local inputs.

Offcouse, blaming Tyagi and not political masters is not correct.
AFAIK the clause is still there -- maybe the saint diluted it?
Austin
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by Austin »

Aditya_V wrote:Austin-> The DRDO approval was a GF mandated clause, I think the saint has rescinded that clause subsequently under the new defense procurement policy which stated 30% local inputs.
Local Inputs is more like offset thing where you mandate to buy , procure ,make things locally for a system we procure abroad , DRDO still has a veto power when it comes to import , which is to say it cant happen unless DRDO approves the same as part of larger chain of approval for procuring a system.
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Re: Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

Post by SaiK »

it is well known fact that we have tone of loopholes., and really a handful care about it... and now, we are at a point where nothing is clean, and all hands are dirty 'cause my next door friend farted.
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