Should we discontinue EVMs?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Jul 2009 07:21

I have no problem in having a paper trail of the vote, as long as "count the paper" is the not the primary means.

Ref allegations about pakis, and admission of evidence, I am pointing to the absence of an "exhibit", not "admissible evidence". The parallel in the paki scenario will be the packet of chips produced as belonging to Kasab. Pakistan of courses denies it as planted, but it is an "exhibit".

Show me one such exhibit. Even a planted one. Get one guy publicly claim that he SAW the trucks delivering the fake EVMs. Get one guy claim that his neighbour has gone to the polling booth to do the "Activation". Get one guy who worked as polling booth staff claim that another one in the booth was seen to be doing the "activation"

Do you have any such thing? Dear EVM baiters? No. With all the powerful parties hell bent on leaving no stones unearthed, running around like "dogs in the month of virgo", still, NO.

Get that first, then we will talk.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Jul 2009 07:22

OK, I guess it is safe to declare that ALL the scenarios are duly considered, debated and rejected. Do we have any more?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jul 2009 09:37

Tanaji wrote: Er, you are absolutely trusting your life to Boeing/Airbus when you fly. The motive there is cutting costs... money is the biggest motivator there is.

Boeing would not stay in business very long if planes started crashing because of corners that were cut.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jul 2009 09:40

Muppalla wrote:
The chances of EVM-hacking fraud happening is at the foundries of the vendors and in conjunction with the trojanized randomizing software.
A lot of folks who works/in the technical area and are passionate about their knowledge think that this is a long shot possibility. But I think this the most probable and sensible route that Congress party may have taken rather than all the other things like using collectors, ECIL/BEL employees, EC officals, bulk replacement of EVMs etc.

Mupalla ji, if PROM audits were being carried out, foundry-level fraud would be required. But, with no independent audits being done, the trojan can sit in the PROM itself, and nothing need be changed at the foundry. Nor do you need to know the list of candidates in advance.

Also, I am not as confident as you are that the master copy of the binary will not be changed - either at the private company from which the binary is being sourced, or at the PSUs themselves. And let's not forget the totalizers.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jul 2009 09:47

Dileep wrote:I have no problem in having a paper trail of the vote, as long as "count the paper" is the not the primary means.

First use EVMs. In case of dissatisfaction, do manual counting. Video record the proceedings to ensure no ballot box stuffing.

The video should show the faces of the voters as they vote, take the receipts, and put them in the ballot box. Obviously the keypad itself should not be on video to maintain privacy.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jul 2009 09:53

The anti-EVM campaign needs to move to the next level.

A number of people have given demos of EVM hacking. Need to go to each and every village and stage such demos. Also buy advertising time on TV, showing these demos.

As a first step, we need to conduct an EVM fraud awareness campaign in Maharashtra and Haryana. State elections are due there in Oct 2009. Totally saturate these two states with the campaign.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 06:30

Pranav, that is what I call a disinformation campaign. You can easily scaremonger the people into breaking out riots against the EVMS. That is what political parties do when they don't stand a chance in dealing with facts.

We will go to the people onlee

See the commies do in Kerala about the Lavalin corruption case. We heard that from that murderer Shibu Sorryassen too.

That does it. I am convinced now that the EVM fraud outcry is because the parties are pissed off that they can't rig them. They don't feel "in control" of the situation, hence the outcry.

Can't blame them. It is their nature too. After all, I don't think aliens made the parties. They are congregation of us. So, I shall re-phrase. It is OUR nature onlee.

The brutal minority of people who understand the technology, and who are in a position to argue for the EVMS stand no chance in the outside world. Heck, EVMs just scraped thru in BRF discussion itself.

This thread has served its purpose. I suggest archiving it*

*Personal motive onlee. Something related to post count

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 10:53

Dileep wrote:Pranav, that is what I call a disinformation campaign. You can easily scaremonger the people into breaking out riots against the EVMS. That is what political parties do when they don't stand a chance in dealing with facts.>
>
>
That does it. I am convinced now that the EVM fraud outcry is because the parties are pissed off that they can't rig them. They don't feel "in control" of the situation, hence the outcry.

Bingo Dileep ji. You just caught it.

I have some experience in watching how Indian political parties start up strawman arguments and build up entire campaigns out of them. Even Goebbels would have been proud.

If there was a serious merit in the anti-EVN tirade we've seen in BRF, and which is supposed to have denied the BJP its "rightful" victory in the last elections (it's always a good point to state plainly what one is trying to say instead of dealing with polemics) political Netas would have been out in the streets doing exactly what Pranav is suggesting doing.

(Taking) The anti-EVM campaign (needs to move) to the next level.

They wouldn't be waiting for cyber warriors to build up awareness. It's also interesting that even on BRF, this issue of EVM rigging was brought up almost immediately after the election results - by some of the same posters who are drumming it now - much before all the supposed "evidence" of riggability were shown in the real world.

The fact that mainstream politicians from BJP, CPI(M), SP, BSP etc are NOT screaming their heads off about EVM corruption is itself a fair indication of what's going on.

Let me guess: This is the build up for an "issue" which will come in handy during the various State Assembly election that are coming up. (Do note the States mentioned as first stop for the anti-EVM campaigns

).

IMVHO opinion we are seeing the advance cyber troopers laying the ground work on the Internet, while another set come up with "evidence" that EVM's are "easily" riggable.

At the appropriate time (that is when it wouldn't make them look like bad losers to the public who did not vote for them in the last election) the Netas will get into the act.

I second your opinion that this thread should be archived. IMO it will make for very interesting reading a few months on.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jul 2009 11:18

EVMs rigged? Poll panel challenges doubters

But the Election Commission points out that Nomthondam’s software has been developed on a laptop and without access to EVMs.

Uh oh, BRF cog alert

Meanwhile, head of Election Commission’s experts, Professor PV Indiresan, laughs off Saigal’s complaints about the EVMs. “This is like asking Sita to prove her chastity by giving agni pariksha. That is all I can say,” says Indiresan.

Congrats Dileep.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2009 11:23

Sanku wrote:EVMs rigged? Poll panel challenges doubters

But the Election Commission points out that Nomthondam’s software has been developed on a laptop and without access to EVMs.

Who have access to EVMs?

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 11:30

ravi_ku wrote:Who have access to EVMs?

That is precisely why there is no apparent merit in Nomthondam's claim. Tell me can you write a trojan to take advantage of some yet unknown vulnerability in Windows 7 without any access to the OS?

If you can't then how can this dude write a software to manipulate EVMs without having access to one?

I would want these folks to take up the EC on its word about the open challenge. Everyone wants to know the truth and now that they have raised this point it is their duty to take up EC on its word and prove their point.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2009 11:35

amit wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:Who have access to EVMs?
That is precisely why there is no apparent merit in Nomthondam's claim. Tell me can you write a trojan to take advantage of some yet unknown vulnerability in Windows 7 without any access to the OS?

If you can't then how can this dude write a software to manipulate EVMs without having access to one?

I would want these folks to take up the EC on its word about the open challenge. Everyone wants to know the truth and now that they have raised this point it is their duty to take up EC on its word and prove their point.

will the EC allow open challenges to EVMs?

Simple to say, the EC is behaving like the "truthful" company. Trust us, we have the money (EVMs safe), but dont ask us to show them.

and I being an SDRE just say, I completely believe your truthfulness.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 11:40

ravi_ku wrote:

Who have access to EVMs?[/quote]

Well, the article says

“Come and prove. We will videograph the whole process—we throw a challenge. We are 100 per cent confident about the machines,” said Election Commissioner SY Quraishi.

Call Mr. Quraishi and ask for it. Even if you won't be able to break it, you will be able to get sufficient information to raise more scenarios that doesn't involve direct tampering.

Remember, all the claims that take rounds in media are simple ones that are readily rejected here during the initial pages itself. I wish someone raise the two most enduring ones, ie RM's "CIA replaced all the machines in storage" and Pranav's "CIA added microcode to the ships at the fab" in the public media and see what happens.

Why don't you get in touch with the TV channels and offer those scenarios? You shouldn't waste them with the limited audience of BRF.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 11:43

ravi_ku wrote:will the EC allow open challenges to EVMs?

I think you should read the IBN report which Sanku posted.

It has also challenged doubters to prove their suspicions about the machines.

“Come and prove. We will videograph the whole process—we throw a challenge. We are 100 per cent confident about the machines,” said Election Commissioner SY Quraishi.

My limited knowledge of the English language seems to indicate that this is an "open challenge".

Disclaimer: This does not take into consideration that IBN is a CNN organisation and is thus linked to CIA, which has the manpower, resources and will to manipulate thousands of EVMs to vote the party of their choice to power so that India becomes a stooge of the US and barters away her sovereignty . etc, etc.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 11:49

Amit, being less chankian and more techie, I haven't seen the "build the background" angle. Now that you mention it, it is very clear where all these goes.

Sri Ram had to put Sita devi into the fire because people started talking. Proverbs like "there won't be smoke without a bit of fire" (Or a more appropriate mallu proverb, "There won't be stink without a bit of $hit" (ഒട്ടും തൂറാതെ നാറുമോ?)) will fly in the air. People will discuss it to the death at the morning chai-kada meetings.

Finally, doubts will be established in the minds of people.

If I was EC, I would have immediately called an all-party meeting, and demanded them to recommend technically qualified members to a committee that would audit the entire system.

But think about it, having an open challenge, and getting all those two bit claimants to try and fail is a good idea as well. As the number of failed claims pile up, the propaganda will wind down.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2009 11:52

Dileep wrote:Well, the article says

“Come and prove. We will videograph the whole process—we throw a challenge. We are 100 per cent confident about the machines,” said Election Commissioner SY Quraishi.
Call Mr. Quraishi and ask for it. Even if you won't be able to break it, you will be able to get sufficient information to raise more scenarios that doesn't involve direct tampering.

Remember, all the claims that take rounds in media are simple ones that are readily rejected here during the initial pages itself. I wish someone raise the two most enduring ones, ie RM's "CIA replaced all the machines in storage" and Pranav's "CIA added microcode to the ships at the fab" in the public media and see what happens.

Why don't you get in touch with the TV channels and offer those scenarios? You shouldn't waste them with the limited audience of BRF.

Which particular machines? I have to believe that the machine used in borivali 5th polling booth was that particular one and that it was not touched in between - to which Naveen Chawla, this Querishi and more than 25 persons of EC and then their deputed personnel had access to on any particular day?

No one ever said that the "original" design of EVMs are faulty. Unfortunately it is the "people" who handle them who dont have my trust and the weakest link in the whole chain.

As much as I read that article, all it says is I have a sample original EVM here. Check it, see how truthful we are. When we started this truthful company, we had exactly 5Rs. Now I have 5000 crores and you better believe it, because you have seen the original 5Rs, when you have started.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 11:58

Dileep wrote:Amit, being less chankian and more techie, I haven't seen the "build the background" angle. Now that you mention it, it is very clear where all these goes.

Sri Ram had to put Sita devi into the fire because people started talking. Proverbs like "there won't be smoke without a bit of fire" (Or a more appropriate mallu proverb, "There won't be stink without a bit of $hit" (ഒട്ടും തൂറാതെ നാറുമോ?)) will fly in the air. People will discuss it to the death at the morning chai-kada meetings.

Finally, doubts will be established in the minds of people.

If I was EC, I would have immediately called an all-party meeting, and demanded them to recommend technically qualified members to a committee that would audit the entire system.

But think about it, having an open challenge, and getting all those two bit claimants to try and fail is a good idea as well. As the number of failed claims pile up, the propaganda will wind down.

Actually Dileep, you idea of an all-party meeting recommending a committee is more practical in the Indian context.

The EC open challenge will be rubbished. Don't you see that's exactly what Ravi ji is trying to do in his post, few posts above this?

will the EC allow open challenges to EVMs?

Simple to say, the EC is behaving like the "truthful" company. Trust us, we have the money (EVMs safe), but dont ask us to show them.

and I being an SDRE just say, I completely believe your truthfulness.

If this is the intrepretation of what the IBN report says:

It has also challenged doubters to prove their suspicions about the machines.

“Come and prove. We will videograph the whole process—we throw a challenge. We are 100 per cent confident about the machines,” said Election Commissioner SY Quraishi.

Then what ever test EC does will be phoo phooed with strawmen arguments.

You know when in the first few pages of this thread I thought the anti-EVM folks had an interesting and thought provoking arguments going. However, as you and Tanaji started to demolish them one by one from a technical POV, more and more fantastic theories were coming up. It was then that I had my tubelight moment about what was actually happening.

I'm convinced that what I wrote in my previous post to you is 400 per cent correct. All my spider senses are quivering.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 11:59

I just did a google on the name Ripujit Nomthondam. Got all of one hit, that is the IBMLIVE report.

The saigals claim:

“It is amazing that for Rs 500 a young programmer in seven days can produce a programme which can rig elections.”

I can probably write a demo on my laptop in a few hours. I definitely don't need 7 days. If I get the EVM source code, I can probably write a trojanized version in a few days. We all know that don't we?

OT, but Rs 500 for 7 days?, ie Rs 2000 monthly salary. Hmmm, that should be some very expert programmer.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 12:00

Then what ever test EC does will be phoo phooed with strawmen arguments.

Believe me Dileep I posted my last post before seeing Ravi ji last post!

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 12:07

ravi_ku wrote:Which particular machines? I have to believe that the machine used in borivali 5th polling booth was that particular one and that it was not touched in between - to which Naveen Chawla, this Querishi and more than 25 persons of EC and then their deputed personnel had access to on any particular day?

No one ever said that the "original" design of EVMs are faulty. Unfortunately it is the "people" who handle them who dont have my trust and the weakest link in the whole chain.

As much as I read that article, all it says is I have a sample original EVM here. Check it, see how truthful we are. When we started this truthful company, we had exactly 5Rs. Now I have 5000 crores and you better believe it, because you have seen the original 5Rs, when you have started.

Let's try to understand clearly what you're trying to say Ravi.

You seem to be claiming the entire Election Commission is compromised and corrupt are you?

If you are you should say so very clearly, there's no need for polemics.

Now if the EC in India can be full of corrupt people, then even assuming the EVMs are rigged how are you going to prove that? By bringing in a set of people who can show how the rigging was done?

The point is how will vouch for the incorruptibility of this set of people who will prove that the EVMs were tampered with? What's to prevent this new "corrupt" group of testers from changing the original EVMs - which are perfect machines - with already tampered machines to show that the last elections were rigged against the BJP?

Now it all boils down to which group of people you think are corrupt, the EC or the folks who can prove that the EVMs were rigged.

How do you do that can you tell me?

You see building strawmen is very easy, everyone can do it.

If you can call EC corrupt without a shred of evidence, then I can say every person who is claiming the EVMs were rigged are also corrupt and are bent on compromising the security of Mother India.

Can you prove otherwise?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 12:09

Ravi, the claims that go around in public says "EVMs can be tampered by an Rs 500 programmer". EC says, ok, take one EVM and tamper it in front of the cameras. All of us here know that it is not possible.

They are not talking about verification of whether the machines were tampered or not. They are simply responding to the claim that the EVMS are easy to tamper with, with a challenge to go ahead and do it.

The current allegations (in public media) never said that the EVMs are tampered by the cock-a-mamie schemes by CIA.

Now, you, RM, Pranav and other EVM-baiters should go in public media and make those claims. THEN EC will have to respond. They can't ask you to get CIA crack it, so possibly they will agree for a verification process.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 20 Jul 2009 12:11

Nobody discussing for EVMs has settled any argument raised by the anti-EVMs on this thread. Dileep has given the example of a board design and suggested that it is how the ver 1.0 of the EVM would have been. Similarly the issue of warehousing of the EVMs after elections has not been sorted out as well. there have been no convincing answers as to what manner of EVMs and what storage EC uses.

As someone suggested that the rigging of EVM was being made an issue because ordinary politicians could not subvert the system. If we invert that argument then one of the standing problems with EVMs is that the opposition parties can't rig it in any way, but that doesn't prevent the ruling party from doing just that and then diverting all arguments to the 'integrity of EC'.

In Kerala, the Cong led UDF is so confident after the rigged EVMs won the elections for the UPA that they are not even considering proposals from various parties to make alliances.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 12:18

The question is not if you trust the system. The question is whether the parties trust the system.

That is because you elect parties. By electing the parties, you implicitly trust them. You trust them with the public policy of the country. Naturally, you can trust them in trusting the system that elects them.

So, there is no need of the EC satisfying, or even listening to, a normal citizen in the matter of elections. The EC should satisfy the recognized parties of a fair election process for them.

The parties KNOW that the system is fair. That is their problem. They are not able to flex it to be more fair to themselves. If the EC offers to make an all-party approved committee, they will not do it. They will give some lame reason for that.

The EC must call their bluff. Sooner, the better.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 12:18

Raju wrote:One of the standing problems with EVMs is that the opposition parties can't rig it in any way, but that doesn't prevent the ruling party from doing just that and then diverting all arguments on the 'integrity of EC'.

Raju Saar,

Are you trying to say that with ballot papers the opposition also gets a crack at rigging the polls and hence you favour a return to ballot papers? More power for egalitarian rigging perhaps?

Nobody discussing for EVMs has settled any argument raised by the anti-EVMs on this thread. Dileep has given the example of a board design and suggested that it is how the ver 1.0 of the EVM would have been. Similarly the issue of warehousing of the EVMs after elections has not been sorted out as well. there have been no convincing answers as to what manner of EVMs and what storage EC uses.

Every one of the anti-EVM arguments have argued about how its theoretically possible to tamper with EVMs, none of them have show how practical it is. To repeat the point I raised with Ravi, it's theoretically possible today to design a trojan to take advantage of an yet to be discovered security flaw in the Windows 7 OS.

The point is how practical is it?

In the case of EVMs let's grow up and leave our childish CIA did it with the help of the Maritians fixation.

Taipiece: Did you read it, the original print of Neil Amstrong's Moonwalk had been deleted by NASA and they had to digitally recreate it for the 40th anniversary. That just goes to show that NASA faked all the Moon landings! More power to folks who saw through that charade for so many years.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2009 12:22

amit wrote: Let's try to understand clearly what you're trying to say Ravi.

You seem to claiming the entire Election Commission is compromised and corrupt are you?

If you are you should say so very clearly, there's no need for polemics.

Let me invert the question and ask you. Are you saying NONE, i.e. out of hundreds of EC officials, no one or zero officials is corrupt and everyone is doodh ka dhula?

Now if the EC in India can be full of corrupt people, then even assuming the EVMs are rigged how are you going to prove that? By bringing in a set of people who can show how the rigging was done?

The point is how will vouch for the incorruptibility of this set of people who will prove that the EVMs were tampered with? What to prevent this new potentially "corrupt" group of testers from changing the original EVMs with already tampered machines to show that the last elections were rigged against the BJP?

If you look at my arguments I have nowhere said EVMs have to removed. I have always maintained, IF EVMs are to used going forward, the EC must change its behavior to be transparent. I have given a proposal, EC should make every part, design of EVM + CU open source and allow the top 3-4 losers to choose and inspect 2-3 EVMs+ CUs of their choice all recorded on camera. Take the replacement money from them.

If you can give a better proposal, all power to you.

Now it all boils down to which group of people you think are corrupt, the EC or the folks who can prove that the EVMs were rigged.

How do you do that can you tell me? You see building strawmen is very easy everyone can do it. If you can call EC corrupt without a shred of evidence, then I can say every person who is claiming the EVMs were rigged are also corrupt and are bent on compromising the security of Mother India. Can you prove otherwise?

No, it boils down to whether you believe each and every EC official (including Mr.Emergency fame Navin Chawla) is doodh ka dhula, incorruptible, upright and NEVER makes ANY security mishaps.

The entire process of using EVMs today is dependent on that assumption. I dont make that assumption, do you?

If yes, God save India.

If not, tell me ONE thing which tries to stop the "black daal" EC official from replacing/changing select number of EVMs to manipulate critical constituencies.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 20 Jul 2009 12:24

EC has not even made an offer for an all-party committee to tackle the issue of EVMs, so let's not bring that issue when it's not even on the table.

Like Rahul Mehta suggested CIA or any external organization tampering with EVMs at the chip foundry itself. Or CIA replaced EVMs at the EC warehouse in understanding with Navin Chawla, why not this scenario. Already the chips have been tampered since 2007 itself and the Americans have offered the UPA a key to break the lock to winning elections in India perpetually on back of this loophole and offered to them the 'key' to manipulate EVMs in their favor as one of the carrots provided to UPA on nuclear issue.

So the ways in EVM can be manipulated and compromised is limited only to imagination.

If EVM fabs were located in India and were supervised by a bipartisan EC panel and supervised by the multiparty committee, nobody could have cast any aspersions towards these EVMs.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 20 Jul 2009 12:25

More power for egalitarian rigging perhaps?

why not ? If we are destined to be ruled by a goonda, then why not the most popular goonda instead of some shady one.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2009 12:27

Dileep wrote:The question is not if you trust the system. The question is whether the parties trust the system.

Sir, I will not accept this statement. I am the voter and the most important part of an election. An election is built on voter's trust that his vote is valid and properly registered and counted. Everything else is secondary. Other wise, it is "sham"ocracy.

Btw, so according to you, all it needs is a 10,000 election deposit to be paid to be a candidate and the implicit assumption being those who cant pay that dont need to know how the votes are counted or even properly registered. They are simply dumb animals who need to press a button, some damn button and should not care for anything else.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 12:27

Raju wrote:Nobody discussing for EVMs has settled any argument raised by the anti-EVMs on this thread. Dileep has given the example of a board design and suggested that it is how the ver 1.0 of the EVM would have been. Similarly the issue of warehousing of the EVMs after elections has not been sorted out as well. there have been no convincing answers as to what manner of EVMs and what storage EC uses.

The public document released by the EC under RTI details the design features and safety measures of the EVM. My arguments are based on that information, and the technologies involved.

I had asked RM to get information on the storage of EVMS. He has the necessary clout to get it. Let him come back with the info, and if needed we will re-open the case.

As someone suggested that the rigging of EVM was being made an issue because ordinary politicians could not subvert the system. If we invert that argument then one of the standing problems with EVMs is that the opposition parties can't rig it in any way, but that doesn't prevent the ruling party from doing just that and then diverting all arguments to the 'integrity of EC'.

No, inverting the argument doesn't get there. The eVMS are equally unriggable by the ruling or opposition parties. The opp parties complain because they lost.

In Kerala, the Cong led UDF is so confident after the rigged EVMs won the elections for the UPA that they are not even considering proposals from various parties to make alliances.

Who is that ally? Muraleedharan?

Ouseppachan? Who is of the great value to UDF?

In Kerala, none of the RM/Pranav scenarios work. Someone would observe and raise hell.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 12:33

ravi_ku wrote:Let me invert the question and ask you. Are you saying NONE, i.e. out of hundreds of EC officials, no one or zero officials is corrupt and everyone is doodh ka dhula?

No, it boils down to whether you believe each and every EC official (including Mr.Emergency fame Navin Chawla) is doodh ka dhula, incorruptible, upright and NEVER makes ANY security mishaps.

The entire process of using EVMs today is dependent on that assumption. I dont make that assumption, do you?

If yes, God save India.

If not, tell me ONE thing which tries to stop the "black daal" EC official from replacing/changing select number of EVMs to manipulate critical constituencies.

Ravi,

Sigh! We're going back to running on a threadmill, that is running in one place. I don't think each and every EC employee is incorruptible. However, I think the EC as an institution has enough checks and balances built into it to ensure that a fraud of the magnitude that you and other folks are suggesting, that is massive manipulation of EVMs to ensure the BJP's defeat in the last elections did not take place.

It's been comprehensively proven by Dileep and Tanaji, among others, that it would require a massive amount of coordination with the involvement of thousands of people to ensure the proper manipulation of the EVM machines.

It's not a simple thing of say writing a bot programme and sending to thousands of computers on the Internet with a click of a button. You had to ensure that the correct machines were in the correct polling booths with the correct candidate sequence built into its "doctored programme".

Even if Navin Chawla is corrupt I don't think he could have manipulated the entire EC and the election machinery, plus support staff - a figure which would run to several thousands - to make sure the correct manipulated machine would be in the correct booth.

Remember, if the correct machine was not in the correct booth it would result in some other candidate getting all the votes. Did you notice any surprise BJP or other non-Congress victories in the elections?

Sorry to say yet another strawman from you.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 12:34

ravi_ku wrote:
Dileep wrote:The question is not if you trust the system. The question is whether the parties trust the system.
Sir, I will not accept this statement. I am the voter and the most important part of an election. An election is built on voter's trust that his vote is valid and properly registered and counted. Everything else is secondary. Other wise, it is "sham"ocracy.

Btw, so according to you, all it needs is a 10,000 election deposit to be paid to be a candidate and the implicit assumption being those who cant pay that dont need to know how the votes are counted or even properly registered. They are simply dumb animals who need to press a button, some damn button and should not care for anything else.

You don't need to accept the statement, but that is the reality, and what are you going to do about it?

As long as you make a "one man fight", you are within your definition. But the moment you have another like-minded citizen with you, you become a "party". If you gather enough support for your ideas, you may even become a major party and get your ideas across, recognized, and even heeded to.

But then, it is a PARTY that does it. Hence my argument.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 12:37

Raju wrote:Like Rahul Mehta suggested CIA or any external organization tampering with EVMs at the chip foundry itself. Or CIA replaced EVMs at the EC warehouse in understanding with Navin Chawla, why not this scenario. Already the chips have been tampered since 2007 itself and the Americans have offered the UPA a key to break the lock to winning elections in India perpetually on back of this loophole and offered to them the 'key' to manipulate EVMs in their favor as one of the carrots provided to UPA on nuclear issue.

It is indeed the miracle of BRF that only some of its senior members - like Raju Saar - have access to such stupendous intelligence sources. I have my candidate of the next NSA's post. Will anyone second?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 12:39

amit wrote:It's been comprehensively proven by Dileep and Tanaji, among others, that it would require a massive amount of coordination with the involvement of thousands of people to ensure the proper manipulation of the EVM machines.

You missed one point. Any tampering will be "detectable". This is a major deterrent, especially in the "chip modification" scenario.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 12:41

amit wrote:
Raju wrote:Like Rahul Mehta suggested CIA or any external organization tampering with EVMs at the chip foundry itself. Or CIA replaced EVMs at the EC warehouse in understanding with Navin Chawla, why not this scenario. Already the chips have been tampered since 2007 itself and the Americans have offered the UPA a key to break the lock to winning elections in India perpetually on back of this loophole and offered to them the 'key' to manipulate EVMs in their favor as one of the carrots provided to UPA on nuclear issue.
It is indeed the miracle of BRF that only some of its senior members - like Raju Saar - have access to such stupendous intelligence sources. I have my candidate of the next NSA's post. Will anyone second?

Oh, I too was thinking that way, till I had the privilege of offline communication with Raju. Better give him a very wide berth

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2009 12:49

amit wrote: Ravi,

Sigh! We're going back to running on a threadmill, that is running in one place. I don't think each and every EC employee is incorruptible. However, I think the EC as an institution has enough checks and balances built into it to ensure that a fraud of the magnitude that you and other folks are suggesting, that is massive manipulation of EVMs to ensure the BJP's defeat in the last elections did not take place.

Instead of a simple strawman of saying EC has checks and balances. Couldnt you please list what those are.

The great "independent" judiciary of emergency had so many checks and balances

That same judiciary says every politicians asset should be public, Every department will be under RTI and transparent, except ofcourse them. Are you talking of similar "checks and balances"

It's been comprehensively proven by Dileep and Tanaji, among others, that it would require a massive amount of coordination with the involvement of thousands of people to ensure the proper manipulation of the EVM machines.

Kindly please go back and read how PC won? Yes, EVMs make counting mistakes as large as going into big hundreds

Yes, sir. Please explain this layman how an CU once pressed gave one result and during the next recount gave another.

Please dont shame the additive prowess of those officials. How many EVMs would have been needed to achieve this? I dont know, you tell me.

It's not a simple thing of say writing a bot programme and sending to thousands of computers on the Internet with a click of a button. You had to ensure that the correct machines were in the correct polling booths with the correct candidate sequence built into its "doctored programme".

Amit, nobody is saying it is simple. Are you saying that it is impossible?

Dileep n you are talking that it is difficult. Btw nowhere, I mean nowhere has even Dileep said that it is impossible. He has been maintained that it is difficult. I am saying it is not impossible and thus care need to be taken for it.

Dileep, yes, tampering is detectable. I agree, but to whom is it detectable? Who is checking them?- after the initial checks have been completed.

Nobody has answered them.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 12:50

Raju wrote:why not ? If we are destined to be ruled by a goonda, then why not the most popular goonda instead of some shady one.

Raju Saar,

You are getting yourself into a twist with your various posts.

Let clear the air:

We are destined to be ruled by the goonda who/which is CIA's pet dog. And all that because of the Nuklear deal.

See this as another version of the butterfly effect.

Because we had Pokharan II, we were put into the nuclear doghouse.

This resulted in the Jaswant-Talbott strategic dialogue.

The dialogue resulted in the MMS-Bush lovefest.

The Lovefest resulted in the Nuklear deal talks.

The talks resulted in the deal.

The deal resulted in India becoming a US lackey.

India becoming a US lackey resulted in the UPA also becoming a US lackey.

The UPA becoming a US lackey resulted in the CIA being told that the UPA needs to be in power in perpetuity in India.

In order to keep the UPA in power the CIA manipulated the EVMs

And since EVMs were manipulated by CIA the BJP lost and the UPA won.

So the BJP lost because of Pokharan!

A general comment: Folks sorry for the banter, it's not my intention to Nukkadise this thread but the arguments from the anti-EVM groups are getting more and more bizarre and going around in circles.

I'll stop here for the time being.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jul 2009 12:58

Nothing is IMPOSSIBLE, in fact the chances of a comet striking earth and destroying all life is actually pretty high.

So we stop everything we do and prepare for it?

Get real.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2009 12:59

Dileep wrote: You don't need to accept the statement, but that is the reality, and what are you going to do about it?

As long as you make a "one man fight", you are within your definition. But the moment you have another like-minded citizen with you, you become a "party". If you gather enough support for your ideas, you may even become a major party and get your ideas across, recognized, and even heeded to.

But then, it is a PARTY that does it. Hence my argument.

please pardon me if I am not understanding this twisted logic, which says even though I dont want to contest a party, I need to contest, win, get recognised and then and only then will I get the permission to check whether my vote is valid or not.

Cant I be a non-contesting "party" or is it taboo in your calculations?

Btw, Pakistan attacks Mumbai, I and you may not like it, but that is the reality, and what are we going to do about it? Whine in BR

, go back home, eat and sleep. Right? That something is happening doesnt mean it is right. That I am powerless to change it doesnt mean I cant atleast say it is wrong.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jul 2009 13:03

ravi_ku wrote:Instead of a simple strawman of saying EC has checks and balances. Couldnt you please list what those are.

The great "independent" judiciary of emergency had so many checks and balances That same judiciary says every politicians asset should be public, Every department will be under RTI and transparent, except ofcourse them. Are you talking of similar "checks and balances"

Ravi,

Sorry but common legal jurisprudence suggests that a person or institution is innocent until proven guilty so, the burden of proof is yours not mine. I maintain the EC as an institution has enough checks and balances and has international credibility as one of the pillars which keeps India's democracy functioning.

If you think otherwise you have to prove it, not me. The onus is on you.

Kindly please go back and read how PC won? Yes, EVMs make counting mistakes as large as going into big hundreds

Yes, sir. Please explain this layman how an CU once pressed gave one result and during the next recount gave another.

Can you tell me why Chidambaram's opponents didn't go to court with the results? Curious isn't it, especially since there are many precedents of losing candidates filing appeals against the election results? Another straw man Saar?

Raj Narain accused Indira Gandhi of corrupt electoral practices and filed election petition against her. The Allahabad High Court on 12 June 1975 upheld the accusations and set aside election of Indira Gandhi and also disqualified her to contest Lok Sabha election for next 6 years.

Please see the above extract from WiKi for fun:

Please dont shame the additive prowess of those officials. How many EVMs would have been needed to achieve this? I dont know, you tell me.

Since you are the one who thinks that EVMs were manipulated, why don't you educate this poor, ignorant SDRE how it was done? (While doing so please bring a new angle to the ones already repeated ad nauseaum by RMji, Pranav ji and others.

Are you saying that it is impossible?

It's not impossible to write a trojan for an yet to be detected security flaw for Windows, the question is can it be done?

Sorry Ravi the onus is on the anti-EVM folks to comprehensively prove that not only can the EVMs be tampered with.

They also have to prove comprehensively that the last elections was rigged with compromised EVMs to ensure that the UPA government won and the BJP-led NDA lost.

When you make an allegation you have to prove it. Folks who don't believe in the allegation don't have to disprove it.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 20 Jul 2009 13:12

ravi_ku wrote: please pardon me if I am not understanding this twisted logic, which says even though I dont want to contest a party, I need to contest, win, get recognised and then and only then will I get the permission to check whether my vote is valid or not.

You can't check your vote even in a paper ballot. You have no way of checking if it went into the sewer, or got counted. If it did get counted, did it go to the right candidate's bunch. What are you complaining?

You don't get permission to check your vote after it goes into the box, even if you contest, get elected, or become the PM or president.

State policies are made on the majority in the legislative house. Majorities are controlled by the party whip. As a regular voter, what amount of control you have on that?

Let me ask you this. Would you accept the decision by an expert committee appointed by an all party representation?

Btw, Pakistan attacks Mumbai, I and you may not like it, but that is the reality, and what are we going to do about it? Whine in BR , go back home, eat and sleep. Right? That something is happening doesnt mean it is right. That I am powerless to change it doesnt mean I cant atleast say it is wrong.

When did I say you can't, or shouldn't say something? In fact you can demand that the CEC comes to your home and shows you your vote.

What I said is that, in reality, it is the acceptance of the parties that matter in this case. And that stands. The EC must have a system that is acceptable to the parties, and those who don't like that, should let their party know, or form a new party.