Bharat Rakshak

That from the man who called for "going easy on Pakistan etc....?"



I think will BRaman will drive all the BRFites mad before he is done.

I think I will go and sit in a corner and pull my hair trying to wonder who plays more torturous piskological games, Shiv or BRaman.

Sanku wrote:
I think I will go and sit in a corner and pull my hair trying to wonder who plays more torturous piskological games, Shiv or BRaman.

It's actually quite simple. If the US acts against Indian interests when India opposes Pakistan, the US is supporting Pakistan and creating a constituency of gratitude in Pakistan by saying "Hey look. We are helping against India, so you owe us one and you must help us". If India stops being threatening to Pakistan the US can gain no brownie points from India while they deal with Pakistan.

I suspect that both Raman and Bharat Karnad are trying to remove the leverage that the US has with Pakistan by pulling India into the picture. Does that mean absorbing blows from Pakistan. You know the answer to that. .

Fareed zakaria would have made sense if he compared cross-border paki terrorism with hispanic gang violence originating from US' neighboring countries and the success their border patrols or police departments (including the NYPD ) have in keeping out violent gang members from crossing over and wreaking havoc in urban areas.

Now he cant talk about such things can he?

hnair wrote:Fareed zakaria would have made sense if he compared cross-border paki terrorism with hispanic gang violence originating from US' neighboring countries and the success their border patrols or police departments (including the NYPD ) have in keeping out violent gang members from crossing over and wreaking havoc in urban areas.

Now he cant talk about such things can he?

Actually this is not a good comparison. Baring stray incidents the 'cross-border' gang related violence has been minimal. Domestic gang violence is another story. This is mostly because the US has refrained from going after the Mexican cartel heads in state and only going after the canon fodder. The rules are clear and the cartels are very very careful not to cross them. USA is R&R and rearming territory for Mexican gangs. The USA forces Mexico to 'kill' Mexican gang leaders on its soil and this is what has triggered off the civil war.

The real comparison would be with the borders between AfPak and Iran/Iraq. Even with 130,000 troops with the most advanced equipment they have been unable to stop the infiltration. The IA has essentially sanitized Kashmir and jihad-proofed the border with both hands and a leg tied to its back. We don't have 70 fatal casualties a month.

Sumeet wrote:B Raman replies to Fareed Zakaria. Guys recall his interview by Sagarika from CNN-IBN
India’s Counter-Terrorism Record - An Open Letter to Fareed Zakaria

WoW! Pranams BRaman ji!

RamaY wrote:

Sumeet wrote:B Raman replies to Fareed Zakaria. Guys recall his interview by Sagarika from CNN-IBN
India’s Counter-Terrorism Record - An Open Letter to Fareed Zakaria

WoW! Pranams BRaman ji!

Two weeks later we will say, this same "hindutwadi forum" will say two kicks BRaman ji

One swallow doesnt make it a summer.

Theo_Fidel wrote: Actually this is not a good comparison. Baring stray incidents the 'cross-border' gang related violence has been minimal. Domestic gang violence is another story. This is mostly because the US has refrained from going after the Mexican cartel heads in state and only going after the canon fodder. The rules are clear and the cartels are very very careful not to cross them. USA is R&R and rearming territory for Mexican gangs. The USA forces Mexico to 'kill' Mexican gang leaders on its soil and this is what has triggered off the civil war.

The real comparison would be with the borders between AfPak and Iran/Iraq. Even with 130,000 troops with the most advanced equipment they have been unable to stop the infiltration. The IA has essentially sanitized Kashmir and jihad-proofed the border with both hands and a leg tied to its back. We don't have 70 fatal casualties a month.

saar, kindly avoid dissent just for the heck of it - I believe we are both in agreement that hispanic gang violence has not been sorted to US public's satisfaction and there is a cross-border angle that fuels it. R&R is not one way - folks slip off after getting into trouble in US (bailjumps to parolees) with a lot of impunity. Despite all efforts at paying of Mexican border town authorities into action, the violence has spread to other more vicious and closer knit parochial entities of Central America (MS-13 is the most notorious) with minimal control. My point is Zakaria should have compared success in that area of Homeland security, if he feels a homeland needs to be protected from a troubled neighbourhood. So it is a good comparison, if one talks about American domestic deaths and disruption.

He is not taunting us with Af/Pak and Iran/Iraq for obvious reasons. He will be laughed at instantly by fellow Americans (eg: the incident of two days ago, where they were taking potshots at Afghan Embassy, while packing an ISI provided picnic hamper) and he doesn't care since it is not his mainland. But with Indian Home affairs, he feels he is safe to pontificate, since US homeland has not been hit by paki terrorism after 9/11 due to bribing the dictators etc.

Virupaksha wrote: One swallow doesnt make it a summer.

We will appreciate what we think is a good point and criticize what we do not like. If he is sensitive to criticism, he will stop writing the stuff that attracts logical/nationalistic criticism.

B Raman wrote:13. We have a self-denying counter-terrorism policy. We consciously deny to ourselves many practices which you in the US permit to yourselves in your counter-terrorism against Muslim suspects. We are proud of such self-denying provisions in our counter-terrorism policy.

Extremely presumptuous of B Raman to be speaking on behalf of everyone in supporting an ineffectual GOI policy that undervalues Indian lives. Not all Indians are proud that GOI undervalues the lives of its citizens when compared to the US....

It is not only because our political leadership will not permit it, but it is also because of the hypocrisy of the US Government which will use any methods against Pakistan in order to protect the US Homeland and American lives, but never hesitates to come in the way of India following a similar policy to protect the Indian Homeland and Indian lives.

Lapet lo sir; When has India even tried hard enough for US to even come in between ? If that is an excuse then why desist from building a 10k ICBM ? This is just a lame excuse.

Arjun wrote:

B Raman wrote:13. We have a self-denying counter-terrorism policy. We consciously deny to ourselves many practices which you in the US permit to yourselves in your counter-terrorism against Muslim suspects. We are proud of such self-denying provisions in our counter-terrorism policy.

Extremely presumptuous of B Raman to be speaking on behalf of everyone in supporting an ineffectual GOI policy that undervalues Indian lives. Not all Indians are proud that GOI undervalues the lives of its citizens when compared to the US....

Arjun, he would have contributed substantially to formulating such a policy, hence defending it,

But Zakaria got it quite wrong. There are only two instances of successfully containing insurgency, and terrorism in the world . The first one is Khalistan movement and it was supported by Pakis KPS has the distinction of doing it, of course with sacrifice of umpteen policemen. The second one , I would regard as end of LTTE.

Tell me one instance where unkil had such unqualified success. Inshallah, J&K will be over sonner or later It happens only in India.

Khalistan movement was curtailed as it did not involve a 'minority' community and the PM in charge was competent at least in such matters. As far the the LTTE issue goes we have nothing to be proud of; for we were not only unable to ensure safety and protect the rights of tamils in SL but more importantly ended up sacrificing lives of our soldiers for a wrong cause, eventually SL government did what it wanted to.

I am not at all talking about other issues, by just the end of insurgency, either by India or SL. Where is the example for unkil?
PM , at that time , was also responsible for rise of Bhindranwale. Boya peda babool ka to phul kahan se hoye.


India's perceived failure to save rights of SL tamils is a different subject . Many regards IPKF as Rajiv's stupid decision.

Sikhs are regarded as minority, btw.

Many regards IPKF as Rajiv's stupid decision.

Sirjee i think that decision was wise, but may be we didnt factor in the deceit of the LTTE and the Lankans and paid for our trust

chaanakya wrote: Sikhs are regarded as minority, btw.

Boss I used quotes for a reason. Sikhs are not considered as a minority by the political class in India.

Khalistan movement was curtailed as it did not involve a 'minority' community and the PM in charge was competent at least in such matters. As far the the LTTE issue goes we have nothing to be proud of; for we were not only unable to ensure safety and protect the rights of tamils in SL but more importantly ended up sacrificing lives of our soldiers for a wrong cause, eventually SL government did what it wanted to.

The correct reply could be

Khalistan movement was curtailed because Sikhs themselves didn't wanted Khalistan.

80% of the casualties during this movement were of Sikhs themselves.

Sikhs didn't had global ambitions to create Khalsa kingdom from Gibraltar to Australia.

Sikhs know that there are no Houris anywhere and if they doing bad deeds in this life time they will be reborn.

Sikhs know that Dharm Yuddh is fought irrespective of caste and creed and for Truth.

Sat Siri Akal

SBajwa wrote:
The correct reply could be

Khalistan movement was curtailed because Sikhs themselves didn't wanted Khalistan.

80% of the casualties during this movement were of Sikhs themselves.

Sikhs didn't had global ambitions to create Khalsa kingdom from Gibraltar to Australia.

Sikhs know that there are no Houris anywhere and if they doing bad deeds in this life time they will be reborn.

Sikhs know that Dharm Yuddh is fought irrespective of caste and creed and for Truth.

Jo Lade Deen ke heit, Sura so Hi !!!
(Brave is the one who fights for weak,

[youtube]E5Jq2qXwS-M&feature[/youtube]

Sura so pahchaniye jo lare deen ke haet
Purza Purza Katt marhe kabho na chhadee kheat
--- Bhagat Kabir

"Brave is that person who fights for the week"
"and never leaves the battle field"

negi wrote: why desist from building a 10k ICBM ? This is just a lame excuse.

There was a very popular book called "The World according to Garp". I never finished it but I read the early chapters.

A nurse is caring for a wounded soldier who is unconscious and in coma but has a permanent erection. He has an IV drip and a urine bag. When one gets empty and the other full, the bags are exchanged. One day the nurse has sex with him and the erection goes down and the man dies. But the nurse gets pregnant and gives birth to the hero of the book.

India and 10,000 km ICBMs remind me of that soldier. I'm guessing Pakistan is the nurse.

shiv wrote: I suspect that both Raman and Bharat Karnad are trying to remove the leverage that the US has with Pakistan by pulling India into the picture. Does that mean absorbing blows from Pakistan. You know the answer to that. .

Well, personally

1) I am not sure that is what their game plan is. Possible but I am not sure that is what they are saying
2) I hope to god that is not their game plan.
3) If it is their game plan, you already know what are my views on success and failures of such a action.

hnair,

You mistook my comment. I was not addressing you directly.

I speak from experience. This argument does not fly with Americans. If you attempt to use this argument you will not be taken seriously. Most Americans do not look at Mexicans as their mortal enemies of a violent faith, their view is far more subtle than can not be fully explained here. I wanted to spare people some embarrassment dropping such a clanger in a conversation with an American. Don't do it. FZ is smart not to make the comparison even though he must be sorely tempted. India/TSP is not == USA/Mexico for the American population. One of the reasons Indians have less influence in American society is is our inability to avoid such obvious faux pas.

American do take the ability/inability of their military seriously. They still feel deeply about their military inability to stop infiltration in Vietnam. Serious Americans are not as parochial as you think they are.

If we want to influence American opinion WRT TSP we must maintain credibility, though you can label this brown sahib behavior. FZ is trying to maintain his credibility with them.

Arjun wrote:

B Raman wrote:13. We have a self-denying counter-terrorism policy. We consciously deny to ourselves many practices which you in the US permit to yourselves in your counter-terrorism against Muslim suspects. We are proud of such self-denying provisions in our counter-terrorism policy.

Extremely presumptuous of B Raman to be speaking on behalf of everyone in supporting an ineffectual GOI policy that undervalues Indian lives. Not all Indians are proud that GOI undervalues the lives of its citizens when compared to the US....

Ditto. With all due respects to their service, I would have expected him/them/GoI whoever to be more circumspect about claims of pride. We understand the none-too-easy circumstances, but cannot condone what is still incompetence in the responsibility of providing security. Atleast admit to the ineffectiveness, its nothing to be proud of. There are people dying due to this dammit!

IMHO. it's best not to talk about tsp to Americans... mango khanlanders are too self absorbed to be actually concerned... besides they hardly understand SE-Asia... so it is best to never initiate such conversations
if they mention caste system etc I give them the fireworks... I mention the KKK and the white supremacy ...they shut up thereafter...

If they mention cashmere , I have several other things to tell them thereafter..

Theo_Fidel wrote:
If we want to influence American opinion WRT TSP we must maintain credibility, though you can label this brown sahib behavior. FZ is trying to maintain his credibility with them.

In other words, he is being a loyal Uncle Tom for self aggrandizement. Parroting this bold-faced lie that Muslims are well "integrated" into US society (never mind the torture camps for Muslim suspects and the rampant discrimination and hatred of Muslims post 9/11), and taking a pot shot at India's treatment of Muslims to show US in high regard is the quintessential height of Uncle Tomishness. No wonder FZ has such high credibility among Americans and hence by defuat with DDM scum like Sagarika et. al. BR asks him the right questions.

CRamS wrote: Parroting this bold-faced lie that Muslims are well "integrated" into US society (never mind the torture camps for Muslim suspects and the rampant discrimination and hatred of Muslims post 9/11), and taking a pot shot at India's treatment of Muslims to show US in high regard is the quintessential height of Uncle Tomishness.

What is the evidence that Indian Muslims are 'better integrated' than Muslims in the US? IMO, FZ is quite correct in his opinion....

I would take 'respect for the country's values' as a good proxy for 'degree of integration'.

Torture camps for Muslim suspects etc. are evidence of less 'appeasement' of Muslims by GOTUS as compared to GOI....but the fact that GOI appeases its Muslims more does not translate to higher respect for Indian values. Appeasement can never buy respect.

The average Muslim in the US respects American values and his country more than does the average Indian Muslim for Indian values....

Arjun wrote:

CRamS wrote: Parroting this bold-faced lie that Muslims are well "integrated" into US society (never mind the torture camps for Muslim suspects and the rampant discrimination and hatred of Muslims post 9/11), and taking a pot shot at India's treatment of Muslims to show US in high regard is the quintessential height of Uncle Tomishness.

What is the evidence that Indian Muslims are 'better integrated' than Muslims in the US? IMO, FZ is quite correct in his opinion....

I would take 'respect for the country's values' as a good proxy for 'degree of integration'.

Torture camps for Muslim suspects etc. are evidence of less 'appeasement' of Muslims by GOTUS as compared to GOI....but the fact that GOI appeases its Muslims more does not translate to higher respect for Indian values. Appeasement can never buy respect.

The average Muslim in the US respects American values and his country more than does the average Indian Muslim for Indian values....

Utter despicable nonsense.. imvvho..

x-posting quoted text from TSP dhaga.

Dipanker wrote:US designates Indian Mujaheddin a terrorist entity with 'significant links' to Pakistan

WASHINGTON: The United States on Thursday designated " Indian Mujahedeen," which has claimed responsibility for many terrorist attacks inside India including the most recent bombings in Mumbai and New Delhi, as a global terrorist organization with links to Pakistan.

So MMS went to Ombaba and asked about the promised drop in TSP terror activity in return for his piss process to suit unkil's af-pak policy. And this is what we get, a statement from US state dept. Huge victaree for MMS & co, may be. But it does zilch to stop terror against Indian citizens on the street.

Reminds me of a saying in malayalam 'എനിക്കും മുതലാളിക്കും കൂടി 1000 രൂപ ശമ്പളം'. A servant says me and my master together earn 1000 rupees. What remains unsaid is the individual share in that amount. Pathetic.

Prasad wrote:Utter despicable nonsense.. imvvho..

What part is ? You might want to expand on your views.

Arjun wrote:
The average Muslim in the US respects American values and his country more than does the average Indian Muslim for Indian values....

I would say more than respect, the average US Muslim fears US "values", part of which involves torture camps or all-paid vacation jaunts to the "bay area" if they dare any jihadi hanky panky. I don't have the poll #s, but just recently during all the 9/11 commemoration hoopla, a poll showed majority of whites in US associated Muslims with jihadi terrorism. Well integrated, my bloody foot. FZ was talking through his mush and I am sure even he knows it, because useless hot air like that does make him a good Muslim boy (with "Bollywood looks" as Tina Brown condescendingly described him) in the eyes of the white ruling elite. But the fault is not his for puking that kind of crap, the fault lies with DDM dim-wits like Sagarika to let him get away without laughing him off and asking him some tough questions like the ones BR posed.

CRamS wrote:I would say more than respect, the average US Muslim fears US "values", part of which involves torture camps or all-paid vacation jaunts to the "bay area" if they dare any jihadi hanky panky.

Well, in my initial years in the US - a few speeding violations saw me shell out a couple of grand in fines and rackup on driving 'points'. As a result, I developed a 'healthy respect' for US traffic regulations....Now would you call this 'fear' or 'respect' for US rules? Whatever it was - bottomline is that we need more of this 'fear' / 'respect' with regard to Indian police as well.

I don't have the poll #s, but just recently during all the 9/11 commemoration hoopla, a poll showed majority of whites in US associated Muslims with jihadi terrorism. Well integrated, my bloody foot.

From an assimilation standpoint, it is not relevant what the majority think, or what measures the GOTUS takes - what matters is only how assimilated Muslims feel at the end of the day...See this PEW survey on assimilation of Muslims in the US: American Muslim Attitudes.

In particular see this extract:

A majority of Muslim Americans (56%) say that most Muslims who come to the U.S. want to adopt American customs and ways of life.

India does not have surveys similar to the US so there is no comparable survey data, but my guess is that the similar percentage for those adopting 'Indian customs and way of life' would not be as high in India.

Here's a quote from a 1901 survey done by the British (Ethnographic politics and the discourse of origins)...Now obviously this is highly dated but somehow I don't think the results would change all that much today:

All Mohammedans look on Arabic as their sacred language and they interlard their conversation with any Persian or Arabic words they can pick up from their Mullahs or from their religious books. The grammar remains Bengali and it is only some of the vocables which are changed. The better educated converts often deliberately abandon their native language. The Garpeda Bhunjas of Balasore furnish an illustration of this. They are descended from a Brahman and the females are still so far imbued with Hindu prejudices that they abstain from beef. But they have completely given up the use of Oriya and now speak Hindustani even in the family circle.

CRamS wrote:But the fault is not his for puking that kind of crap, the fault lies with DDM dim-wits like Sagarika to let him get away without laughing him off and asking him some tough questions like the ones BR posed.

The fault lies with DDM dim-wits like Sagarika - but for a different reason: for not asking tough questions to the GOI as to why US-like counter terrorism measures are not being evaluated.

negi wrote:

chaanakya wrote: Sikhs are regarded as minority, btw.

Boss I used quotes for a reason. Sikhs are not considered as a minority by the political class in India.

I missed the quotes, My apologies and thanks for clarifying.


btw I am no Boss, Boss.

Delhi HC blast: Did Kerala module fund it?

The big question is whether this case is really that simple. The angle which both the NIA and the Intelligence Bureau would be looking to probe now is whether this new network in Kashmir has a connection with other networks across the country.

The primary issue that has been noticed is that a lot of the funds that are being generated for terror-related operations come from the south.

IB sources say that they have notice a large part of the money for operations in the Valley is coming in from states such as Kerala and Andhra Pradesh. The Kashmir network is very heavily dependant on the funds from Kerala, it has seemingly become an extremely easy channel for terror operatives.

Mallustan back in news for wrong reason...

I really fear for this state...

sum wrote:Delhi HC blast: Did Kerala module fund it?

The big question is whether this case is really that simple. The angle which both the NIA and the Intelligence Bureau would be looking to probe now is whether this new network in Kashmir has a connection with other networks across the country.

The primary issue that has been noticed is that a lot of the funds that are being generated for terror-related operations come from the south.

IB sources say that they have notice a large part of the money for operations in the Valley is coming in from states such as Kerala and Andhra Pradesh. The Kashmir network is very heavily dependant on the funds from Kerala, it has seemingly become an extremely easy channel for terror operatives.

Mallustan back in news for wrong reason...

I really fear for this state...

Too late now saar. No political will to tackle this issue either at the state or the central level for obvious reasons.

incidentally, a separate Telangana will further exacerbate this flow of funds from Andhra.

[quote="chetak]incidentally, a separate Telangana will further exacerbate this flow of funds from Andhra.[/quote]
How ?

Please stick to topic.

Kashmir terror groups target Indian heartland again?

Evangelist group's hand in Delhi high court blast?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/devils-advoc ... 168-3.html

Not bad discussion at all, considering the group consists of Ramachandra Guha, Romila Thapar, Dipankar Gupta and host Karan Thapar. No attacks on or criticism of, Hindu groups or Hinduism. Question is posed as to why the US has been successful in preventing another major terrorist attack, while India has not.

gakakkad wrote:IMHO. it's best not to talk about tsp to Americans... besides they hardly understand SE-Asia... so it is best to never initiate such conversations
if they mention caste system etc I give them the fireworks...

If they mention cashmere , I have several other things to tell them thereafter..

Good- also tell them that internal issues of India- poverty, inequality, corruption et al, cannot be used as a justification or mitigation of a terrorist strike on India. Anymore than internal problems of the US, can be used to justify any terrorist attack on them.

There will always be press glitterati making small talk of blasts that could not be stopped, looking for someone to blame, and even if they do blame Pakistan, what do we see? Our PM just warns us of the scourge of terror we are facing, with ominous hints of more to come, and expressing inability to hit at the roots of terror.
Look at this

Honourable PM says - ‘Security environment uncertain, blasts reminders of challenges’ Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Friday said the security environment in the country “continues to be uncertain” and that the recent terror attacks in Mumbai and Delhi “are grim reminders of the challenges posed by terrorism to our national security.

Q:And why uncertain? Why are we not making sure the roots are destroyed........

Honourable PM says -Speaking at the three-day conference of Directors General of Police and Inspectors General here, Singh also pointed out that there were reports of cross-border camps for terrorists being reactivated. “There are reports of cross-border camps for terrorists being reactivated, and of attempts to induct fresh batches of militants into the country,” he said.

Q: And what are we doing to stop this.....

Honourable PM says -He also talked of the need for the security apparatus to be one step ahead of terrorists. He said human intelligence capabilities needed improvement. “The grassroots information and intelligence collection systems that have traditionally been a part of policing have languished or fallen into disuse in some places... The role of a vigilant and effective beat constable can be vital in checking the activities of networks, which otherwise operate under radar. Some reorientation in the functioning at these cutting edge levels is necessary and the role of community policing should be emphasised,” he said.

Q:He is speaking to a wall here, will the beat constable ensure security?

Source:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/-Secu ... s-/847938/

All this just tells me, the common man, that we have leaders who can talk, discuss,dissect anything that comes up for action, and just short of taking action, they can do everything.When it comes to action, the responsibility is pinned somewhere in the clouds......