Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Jan 2013 01:08

Let me put it this way - the United Kingdom estimates that for every 1 rape reported, 7 are not.

In India what are the estimates ?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Jan 2013 01:17

Sanjay wrote:Does anyone have anything indicating the extent to which rape and/or other crimes against women are under-reported in India ?

Yes, It is understood that only 1/5 cases are actually reported. I have posted that data mentioned by the then cabinet Secy. Under reporting has two dimensions . One people dont go to Police. Second police dont register. This 1/5th is when police dont register. Over the years due to increasing awareness reporting has improved somewhat and that is reflected in 875% rise in rape cases since 1953.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 05 Jan 2013 01:18

Chaanakya, Krsna, Sri, Lakshmikant ji and others, excellent points and thanks for trying and attempting to keep it objective here. Many solutions or rather most of what you have posted is pretty much needed. A primary mindset that is a problem and an obstacle to reform is the inherent assumption/ ingrained mindset that somehow the girl if she didn't do such would not get raped. The fundamental here is that the male must be made to understand that irrespective of what the woman wears, what time she goes out, how much she has drunk...none is a license to rape, mutilate, murder her. Fundamentally men must realize and work towards the ideal that a woman may walk nude and drunk at 3am on an Indian street and not get raped, mutilated and murdered. The responsibility for the change in mindset lies with the male. There is no solution that progresses as long as we contest that.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 05 Jan 2013 01:49

PrasadZ,
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1387299
some replies to your comments--

Cities by population density show Manila, Ahmedabad and Chennai with high populations and high density comparable to Delhi. Yet, none of them have either the reputation nor the stats of Delhi when it comes to

due to certain issues not seen in Delhi--
1) All the above have better policing and law and order. But Manila is considered as one of the unsafest cities in the world. Phillipine govt has taken lot of initiatives to address this issue. From google it says that phillipino police force has better education than the population.
2) Similar in other western countriies as in europe and usa.
3) Crucial difference is the number who walk on the roads. This is extraordinarily high in India relative to other places. With poor policing it is easier for mischievous folks(starts for fun initially) to pass lewd comments grope etc as it is difficult in crowd to point out the right person. Also the Indian women generally bear it with great tolerance as they do not want unwanted attention to themselves.
4) If people respect police naturally the incidents reduce on their own. How to regain police regain respect is another issue.

krisna, your broken windows post was spot on, would love to hear more on that !

here it -- http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1386799
by Googling due the following reasons below--
My idea was effective policing and law and order will curb may crimes in the society including against women. All my posts related to this issue harp on this one.
However some posters with their pet agendas talked something about the culture etc which was unwarranted and stupid. It was in that context I got the broken windows concept and the article related to it which was what I was talking about it in my posts but not able to accurately project it. ( am sort of poor writer if you go thru many of my posts)

krisna wrote:
2) On a whole Indian males do less rapes than western counterparts for all sophistry and arguments. Indian male is still respects women far better than western ones.

Heck No, IMO
Indian men are no worser or better than those of any other nation or culture.

I do maintain that Indians do less rapes than western counterparts due to the culture itself. With similar conditions of situation prevailing, women would be no go in other countries-- we have more people, less police, corrupt and inefficient administration, less cars, more numbers walking on roads, huge crowds, darkness,poor conviction rates in all crimes, vulnerable women and children on roads with no homes, poor sanitation, water and power supply , unemployed youth, and many others.
In fact the pdf article on child abuse clearly mentions high populataion density with poverty as risk factors.

Talking about culture may be OT here but has great relevance in reducing the incidences of crimes. Some say it is moral fabric but comes from culture itself.

Given the wide prevalence of love marriages, arranged marriage is, clearly, an agricultural society construct. Indic societies have memories of other methods but I guess a lot of the railing against it goes to the same point you make

It does not matter what arranged marriage or love marriage is or origins. Both have their relevance. Love marriages is prevalent or becoming more so because of modern technology along with intermingling of people. Youngsters fall and rise in love. Love marriage also existed in olden times but less so due to society. It does not reduce crimes against women(vulnerable relative to men in a male dominated world). In fact completely love marriages can create societal changes with worsening crimes as man is by nature polygamous. OT here.

One of the innovations is "free will matches" or "arranged love" matches. But these need young couples to be allowed to meet the opposite sex and that remains anathema in far too many cultures in India. Sad, when you realise that Indic cultures do not have a religious sanction (unlike others) for arranged marriages; in fact, this, itself, was an innovation to meet changed circumstances.

In fact arranged cum love marriages is increasing in India if you look around.

In the child abuse study posted earlier, there is a table on page 8 that shows child marriage under a different row to rape. Excluding them doesnt make a significant difference to the numbers. Clearly, prevalence of child marriage does not reduce rape statistics.

Ummm, i dont see where UNICEF equates child marriage to rape in this document. It seems to me that they make the case against child marriage purely in the context of human rights - that a child is just not able to enter knowingly and willingly into a life long contract. But maybe i missed it .. ?

krisna wrote:
but the data is not clubbed with non white societies. Among other societies we dont have proper data related to middle east where it is sanctioned by mullahs. No news about china.

True
But I dont think that provides much comfort. In the same doc, you could use Vietnam as a proxy for China and Yemen as a proxy for the wider middle east. India is better than Yemen, worser than Vietnam. I know I dont care about being better than middle east, they are not a useful metric for Indic society anyway.

From the document it states

The term ‘child marriage’ will be used to refer to both formal marriages and informal unions in which a girl lives with a partner as if married before the age of 18.

In fact if you read the whole document you will see that western girls can also be included easliy. But this strictly restrcited to non white countries.
Teenage pregnancy is a big problem in western countries-- here in western countries age of consent varis bewteen age of puberty to 16-18 years. Western countries allow minors to get married by parental consent. this does not constitute child marriage.

In India virtually every child marriage has parental consent barrring a few.

Only difference is poverty is more in India.

But I dont think that provides much comfort. In the same doc, you could use Vietnam as a proxy for China and Yemen as a proxy for the wider middle east. India is better than Yemen, worser than Vietnam. I know I dont care about being better than middle east, they are not a useful metric for Indic society anyway.

No vietnam canot be proxy for china so do yemen for midddle east. they are different despite apparent similarities.

I only disagree where you posit BJP or NaMo as a panacea to the country's ills in your list

You have not read my post properly.

Overall the solutions are simple but not implemented due to politics obviously---

1) Improve economy to bring the down unemployment. will reduce loitering and groping to great extent.
2) Improve basic infrastructure- roads, power, traffic, education, nutrition of girl child, gender sensitisation etc etc in general
3) streamline the police with sensitisation to women crimes-- everyone has said it. women should not feel they have been raped a second time.
4) streamline the judiciary- again the same as above.
5) Mass politicians with spine-- current crop of duffers have no spine. MMS and others are not elected ones but selected to keep seat warm for the biggest duffer of all. mass based politicians in general quickly sense the pulse better than selected ones. they also show better spine. sheila at least ahd the temerity to meet the protestors where they were agitating. MMS was tv studios. sg and rg the worst of all despite being elected.
Here mass politicans with good heart like NaMo can do wonders with improving the above all the points. Gujarat is definitely a better example of the all what is wrong with congis rule.
6) last but not the least -- people should take part whole heartedly in elections which come sonce in 5 years and not sit with their a*ses at home.

I brought out NaMo only in the context of a mass politican with a spine which there is none in congress govt. Currently NaMo govt is the best in the country as given out by Congress body for the last 3 or more years-

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 05 Jan 2013 01:49

The record of rape in USA is pretty horrific. Esp. for girls who are just maturing and don't have a full awareness of the world. Right now my city dealing with a sordid gang rape by a local high school football team and no one wants to talk and the coach will not take any action. Despite the whole thing being videotaped.
---------------------

Where India gets a bad rap is in the sum total of our 'accomplisments'. Lets start with one number. 1/6 of all girls India are murdered, sometimes before birth, too often after birth. All Asian countries get a bad rap in this regard, but India leads in the female infant mortality rate.

Normally, more male than female infants die in early childhood. Unfortunately several Indian states have successfully flipped this, killing more female infants than male. And not just small change either. States like Haryan & UP are completely ultta. Normal ratio is 1.3 Male/female. Haryana has flipped this to .80

http://jech.bmj.com/content/34/2/143.full.pdf

It is the sum total of what we do to our women that makes it hard to defend this record.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Jan 2013 01:51

Sanku wrote:1) I do not see 2x difference between Delhi and Mumbai for rapes as hands down. Worse yes but not hands down.

Maybe there is a difference in the terminology we use. But here are the statistics for each metro on rapes per Lakh of population, so folks can determine for themselves where Delhi stands:

Kolkata: 0.3
Chennai: 0.9
Ahmedabad: 0.9
Hyderabad: 0.8
Bengaluru: 1.1
Mumbai: 1.2
Delhi: 2.8

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Jan 2013 02:00

Looking - don't think it is in this thread.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Jan 2013 02:06

ramana wrote:Sanjay, Somewhere in this thread a Judge was quoted about the statistics of reporting, charging, convictions. Please do look it up.

Found it - wrong thread. It is not here but

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... e#p1384779

Thanks Chaanakya for posting it. Is there a link anywhere to his comments as they could make a useful reference point.

If 20% or rapes and/or sexual assaults are reported (do you think this figure too high ?) then there some hope.

Theo_Fidel, why should we even try to defend that record ? Everyone of Indian descent should be outraged by that.

I don't necessarily agree with you that ending arranged marriages will do much. The male mindset has to change first.

Anyone notice something good though - in a few recent cases, it was the mother-in-law looking out for her daughter-in-law and reported the incident.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 05 Jan 2013 02:26

Whether reported stats are 1/5th, 1/10th, 1/100th is any bodies guess. That is why statistics cannot be very reliable. But we all do know the basics now at the least of why this happens. Why there is insensitivity. Low level lewdness is too common in India, even if the drag into car and rape stats are not so high. In NY in the 90's the Mayor started nipping in the bud low level petty muggers and subway rogues. Murder rates started falling drastically. With reduced segregation and more mixing another set of rapes will emerge, date rapes for example. India will continue for sometime to have a combination of drag into bus and rape and date rape kind of situations for some time. While one case requires reducing segregation and sensitivity training, the other requires also a deterrent through sensitivity. Conviction rates will be lower in the latter case as they are hard to prove. In the latter context sensitivity includes the fundamental assumption again worth repeating that a nude, drunk girl at 3 am does not deserve to be raped or taken advantage off. Too many educated people are not sure about this as yet.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Jan 2013 02:36

harbans - can't and won't disagree with you.

However I think it is important to figure out how accurate the official data is to see the extent of the problem. None of this detracts from anything you say though.

India Today suggested that 90% of rapes in India were unreported. This new information seems to suggest a slight improvement in that.

Still, you are right, we cannot rely on statistics here. Things are bad - very bad.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Jan 2013 06:01

Can I ask a couple of questions ?

Is the rampant molestation/ verbal harassment etc prevalent in Delhi also replicated across rural India ?

To put it another way - and putting rapes and incest and discrimination aside (because we know they happen in rural India) - are women in rural subject to the same extent to the onslaught of verbal and physical molestation that occurs in Delhi ?

The other question is this: do women feel more unsafe in Delhi than in Bangalore, Chennai, Lucknow, Mumbai or Kolkata ?

Is the NCR palpably worse than the other metropolitan areas ? Again - exclude rapes - I mean the verbal and physical molestation that women suffer - is it less in other cities ?

Just for information - pretty bad in Sri Lanka as well.
http://www.dailymirror.lk/news/23912-la ... -asia.html
http://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.p ... sri-lanka/
http://www.colombopage.com/archive_12A/ ... 3007CH.php
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18889564

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 05 Jan 2013 06:39

Arjun wrote:
SriKumar wrote: Only the current public pressure might have any chance of effecting this change, as in, not giving tickets to people with rape charges.
How is this issue handled in the US and Western democracies ? Are folks who have criminal charges filed against them, but which are as yet unproven, disallowed to contest in elections ?

I am not sure if there is a law, but one thing is for sure. If a candidate has a rape charge against him, the media (especially the media that is against this person's party) is going to plaster that all over the news till it becomes the defining feature about the candidate. The political party that the candidate belongs to knows this. So, typically, they try to pre-empt this and put forward another candidate. This fear keeps the candidates from un-necessary adventures. The media plays a big role here, and candidates are very sensitive to negative publicity.

There's always the possibility of a false charge. What I can say is that the police generally act quickly, collecting evidence,interviewing people, and come to a recommendation quickly i.e. whether the case has enough merit to go forward with a court trial, or find out that it is a false charge, or drop it for the lack of evidence. It is a matter of days to a few weeks. So, no one is waiting for months or years. This would deter false allegations as much as it would deter criminal behavior from the candidates.

The only case I can recall (did not do a google search) of a Senator getting involved in criminal sexual behavior is Bob Packwood of Oregon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Packwood . He was a serving senator and very powerful. In the early 90s, a newspaper wrote an article saying that many women has accused him of sexual misconduct (dont know the details). The senate (Ethics Committee?) investigated him and practically forced him to resign. (My opinion: If that had not happened, the challenger for the next election would have hammered him; and his Republican party as being sympathetic to some who has assaulted women.).

While I appreciate the thought process behind the idea- isn't India also a country where parties would go to any extent to win and therefore not be averse to dirty tricks aimed at filing false charges ?

The group most likely to play such dirty tricks, at first glance, would be political parties themselves. If such a law is passed (disallowing candidates with pending charges), the parties will quickly come to an agreement among themselves that they will not screw each other with false charges. If party BZZ files a frivolous rape charge against a candidate from party IXY and gets him off the ballot, IXY can do the same to BZZ in a different constituency. This fear should keep them all honest. Besides, if a candidate is tainted, the party can always put another candidate in the running. So, it is not a binary situation. As for private citizens filing false charges, the possibility exists but there is no prima facie benefit. The only motivation would be political (which brings us back to political parties).

Moreover, if we pass such a law, it is added motivation for the political class to fast-track the cases and prove their innocence that a false charge was filed. Then we'll have politicians calling for Super Fast Track courts, instead of the current response. As the situation stands right now, it is the guilty people who gain the most by contesting and winning; once in power they can prevent laws from passing. (It is not just rape, as we all know. It is also corruption etc.) But rape must get first attention.

My last comment is that the group that needs the most protection right now is the aam janata. The laws are not protecting them. The politicians today have a lot of protection (legal, police, political) and are doing just fine. If the law needs to swing a bit to the other side to protect the weakest among our citizens (women and little girls) from being raped, the idea must be considered.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Jan 2013 09:06

^ Good, thoughtful response Srikumar. So I would think fast-track courts (maybe specifically for high-profile / electoral cases) may need to go hand-in-hand with any campaign on not giving electoral tickets to those with rape charges.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Jan 2013 09:07

Vina, Cross-posting here from 'Modi vs Dynasty' thread in GDF, in case you want to continue the discussion further...

vina wrote:Ah. I see. Bhagwat conducted a scientific study of rapes in this country (India and Bharat), found out statistically that women are lot more liable to be raped in Urban India than in Rural India and also Ancient India (Bharat of the Puranas) , so he must be right of course. Funnily enough Bhagwat did not publish any results of his study ,put it up for peer review and independent verification.. but all the same it is scientific if Bhagwat says it is.

Well, there are a couple of different interpretations of what Bhagwat said...It seems he may have meant that those who follow 'sanskars' would not to do such things. 'Sanskar' == 'moral values'. In which case what he said is obviously trivially true - 'cos the rapists were clearly deficient in their understanding of what is right / moral and what is not.

There's another way to look at this...which community supposedly lives most closely by 'Vedic' and Indian spiritual values ? What is your estimate of the percentage of Indian rapists who belong to this community ?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Jan 2013 09:26

Sanjay wrote: Everyone of Indian descent should be outraged by that.

This mentality that every problem in India can only be solved by extended 'outrage' actually seems problematic to me (though for this particular incident alone I think the outrage is justified only because of the sheer barbarity and bestiality on display).

Instead of more 'outrage' what I would suggest is more 'cool-headed' evaluation of the crime statistics on an annual basis - and incentivization by Indian electorate for governments to climb up the relative ranking of 'safer' Indian regions. In simple words - Pay attention to the crime statistics and how your region is performing, and vote the damn government out if it doesn't perform.

Though, if the electorate is not mature enough (which definitely seems to be the case in India) - then 'outrage' becomes the only solution.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 05 Jan 2013 09:34

http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2013/01/ ... iran-bedi/

Kiran Bedi on how to improve security for women

Q: You have said you can help change things in Delhi police in 90 days. How do you plan to do it?
A: Yes, it’s possible. If we put in place a crime prevention plan where all units work simultaneously. On crime prevention in collaboration (with) the community. The commissioner police system is effective, provided we use all its preventive sections of law. And the rules framed. And we make the police station function effectively… My offer to train police leadership and put the system on track remains. Once I do, they can continue to work on it. But then I will also put in place an external audit system to evaluate continuity. And review.

Q: One of your tweets suggests that girls should choose their friends wisely in order to avoid getting sexually exploited. Is that not joining those who blame women for being raped?
A: I am for girls being sensible and being alert on what company they keep. And for responsible behaviour of boys. Girls have to take extra care as they are biologically vulnerable. It’s not in one’s interest to be reckless. We have all been careful to survive. And this is wisdom. Prevention is a good habit.

Q: You have also voiced support for an introspection of our popular culture especially in films, ads and songs.
A: As a teenager, I once walked out of a dance which I thought was demeaning to me as a woman. The more self-respecting we as women will be, the less tolerant we shall be over obscene use of the gender.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Jan 2013 09:46

Arjun wrote:^ Good, thoughtful response Srikumar. So I would think fast-track courts (maybe specifically for high-profile / electoral cases) may need to go hand-in-hand with any campaign on not giving electoral tickets to those with rape charges.

quote/1562 Fast Track Courts have been set up which have disposed of more than 18 lakh cases transferred to them./unquote

Why not fast track all courts . Put mechanism in place which reduces delays and frivoulous adjournments. One of the hurdles to this is Advocates. Second one is that Govt needs to recruit at least 50 judges per million population from the current one of 10.7 judges. so we need 50000 judges with attendant support structures/staffing pronto for timely delivery of justice. The recommendations made in 1987 and judgement of SC cited below has been observed more in ignoring it scrupulously not realizing how much money /development goals go down the drain .

The other recommendations are (and not followed through)

There must be full utilization of the court working hours. The judges must be punctual and lawyers must not be
asking for adjournments, unless it is absolutely necessary. Grant of adjournment must be guided strictly by the
provisions of Order 17 of the Civil Procedure Code.

[2] Many cases are filed on similar points and one judgment can decide a large number of cases. Such cases should be
clubbed with the help of technology and used to dispose other such cases on a priority basis; this will substantially
reduce the arrears. Similarly, old cases, many of which have become infructuous, can be separated and listed for hearing and their disposal normally will not take much time. Same is true for many interlocutory applications filed even after the main cases are disposed of. Such cases can be traced with the help of technology and disposed of very quickly.

[3] Judges must deliver judgments within a reasonable time and in that matter, the guidelines given by the apex court in the case of Anil Rai v. State of Bihar, (2001) 7 SCC 318 must be scrupulously observed, both in civil and criminal cases.

[4] Considering the staggering arrears, vacations in the higher judiciary must be curtailed by at least 10 to 15 days and the court working hours should be extended by at least half-an-hour.

[5] Lawyers must curtail prolix and repetitive arguments and should supplement it by written notes. The length of the oral argument in any case should not exceed one hour and thirty minutes, unless the case involves complicated questions of law or interpretation of Constitution.

[6] Judgments must be clear and decisive and free from ambiguity, and should not generate further litigation.

[7] Lawyers must not resort to strike under any circumstances and must follow the decision of the Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court in the case of Harish Uppal (Ex-Capt.) v. Union of India reported in (2003) 2 SCC 45.

Ref.1. 120th ( 1987) and 230th ( 2009) Reports of The Law Commission.
2. All India Judges’ Association v. Union of India, (2002) 4 SCC 247

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Jan 2013 10:04

Sanjay wrote:Can I ask a couple of questions ?

Is the rampant molestation/ verbal harassment etc prevalent in Delhi also replicated across rural India ?

To put it another way - and putting rapes and incest and discrimination aside (because we know they happen in rural India) - are women in rural subject to the same extent to the onslaught of verbal and physical molestation that occurs in Delhi ?

The other question is this: do women feel more unsafe in Delhi than in Bangalore, Chennai, Lucknow, Mumbai or Kolkata ?

Is the NCR palpably worse than the other metropolitan areas ? Again - exclude rapes - I mean the verbal and physical molestation that women suffer - is it less in other cities ?

Just for information - pretty bad in Sri Lanka as well.
http://www.dailymirror.lk/news/23912-la ... -asia.html
http://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.p ... sri-lanka/
http://www.colombopage.com/archive_12A/ ... 3007CH.php
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18889564

Please have a look at these tables.

http://ncrb.nic.in/CD-CII2011/cii-2011/Table%205.1.pdf

NE states fare better. Bias introduced by under-reporting is common across all states hence comparative data would be same even if multiplied by any number. Police display same attitudinal approach to these problems ( reflective of society as Sachin pointed out in one post).

Citiwise ranking is also given

Delhi - Numero Uno
Begaluru closely behind at second rank.
Hyd the third
Vijayawada is fourth and
Ahemdabad is fifth.

That is no solace that other cities figure lower in order. Every single incident is a shame. With better enforcement we need sensitisation right from the school.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Jan 2013 10:13

harbans wrote:Whether reported stats are 1/5th, 1/10th, 1/100th is any bodies guess. That is why statistics cannot be very reliable. But we all do know the basics now at the least of why this happens. Why there is insensitivity. Low level lewdness is too common in India, even if the drag into car and rape stats are not so high. .

Under reporting is only inferred from other rate of incidence in crime against women. And there can be no valid input for that. But as I said we have to accept that the problem is larger than the data indicates. And we need to do something fast else Women and children ( future of the country) wont be safe anymore anywhere. All of us would be affected , whether live in protected environ or not.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Jan 2013 10:14

chaanakya wrote:NE states fare better.

Only if you consider 'Total crimes against women'. On Rape statistics alone - the North East states have actually the worst record in India. Mizoram is the rape capital of the country in per capita rapes - and the other NE states follow closely behind.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Jan 2013 10:16

SriKumar wrote: I am not sure if there is a law, but one thing is for sure. If a candidate has a rape charge against him, the media (especially the media that is against this person's party) is going to plaster that all over the news till it becomes the defining feature about the candidate. The political party that the candidate belongs to knows this. So, typically, they try to pre-empt this and put forward another candidate. This fear keeps the candidates from un-necessary adventures. The media plays a big role here, and candidates are very sensitive to negative publicity.

How many times have we seen our ( paid or unpaid ) media talking about credentials of the candidates in India . If that happens thing would change for better. All we see is talk about caste equations.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Jan 2013 10:22

Arjun wrote:
chaanakya wrote:NE states fare better.
Only if you consider 'Total crimes against women'. On Rape statistics alone - the North East states have actually the worst record in India. Mizoram is the rape capital of the country in per capita rapes - and the other NE states follow closely behind.

Yeah that question was about Molestation etc. from Sanjay. rape incidence and Kidnapping, abduction are recorded separately. But per capita indicator may not be true indicator. I would worry more about the fact that this happens and how to prevent it.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 05 Jan 2013 10:59

chaanakya wrote:
SriKumar wrote: I am not sure if there is a law, but one thing is for sure. If a candidate has a rape charge against him, the media (especially the media that is against this person's party) is going to plaster that all over the news till it becomes the defining feature about the candidate. The political party that the candidate belongs to knows this. So, typically, they try to pre-empt this and put forward another candidate. This fear keeps the candidates from un-necessary adventures. The media plays a big role here, and candidates are very sensitive to negative publicity.
How many times have we seen our ( paid or unpaid ) media talking about credentials of the candidates in India . If that happens thing would change for better. All we see is talk about caste equations.

The thing about US is that there are just 2 parties; and so each party has its own media outlet that will pretty much go after the other side. Fox News, for example, will support conservatives and criticize democrats irrespective of the reality. So, if they see anything that smells like a rape allegation, they'll make sure an earthworm burrowed 1 meter below the surface will hear of it. Fox News was started by Roger Ailes, who was a campaign consultant for Reagan and Bush Sr. (among others). Similarly, there are some channels that are pro-democrat (ABC news) and if they sense anything serious that could bring down a republican candidate, they'll put it on the airwaves and try to derive maximum mileage out of it (while Fox News will do its best to ignore it, or counter it).

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 05 Jan 2013 11:10

chaanakya wrote: quote/1562 Fast Track Courts have been set up which have disposed of more than 18 lakh cases transferred to them./unquote...Why not fast-track all courts

Good point. Here's why I am in two minds about it, for now. Fast-tracking all courts would likely slow down the process of making implementation (could take several years, I am assuming). Fast-tracking all courts in India will require the judge count that you mentioned plus support infrastructure; which will take ages to fill and delay the process wholesale. MHO is that if the focus is kept on rape courts alone, the challenge will not be so large that it gets postponed by 1-2 years. If things extend by years, my feeling is that the matter will be forgotten/strangled under the mountain of bureaucratic inertia and short public memories. Of course, if all courts, or even most of the womens' courts can be fast-tracked without extended delays lasting years, I am 100% for it.

member_23686 · Post by **member_23686** » 05 Jan 2013 11:36

People stared at us and left, but didn’t help: Delhi gang-rape victim’s friend

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pe ... 20801.html

New Delhi: The male friend of the Delhi gang-rape victim - the only witness in the case - on Friday spoke for the first time in front of the nation and exclusively told Zee News that his friend was “positive” and wanted to live even after the horrific incident that took place on the night of December 16.

"I wish I could have saved her," the friend exclusively told Zee News Editor Sudhir Chaudhary.

The victim’s friend explained to Zee News in detail what exactly happened on that fateful night of December 16.

He said that no one came to their help after they were thrown off the bus by the six accused. Even after the police arrived, it took the cops over two hours to take them to hospital.

The victim’s friend said that since December 16, protests have been happening and people are on the streets. “Many things have come out in the media, but people have been interpreting it as per their convenience. I want to tell them what we faced that night. I want to tell what I faced, what my friend faced,” he told Zee News, expressing hope that people could take a lesson and save others’ lives in future.

He said that the six accused had lured them into boarding the bus on the night of December 16.

“The occupants of the bus, which had tinted windows and curtains, had laid a trap for us. They were probably involved in crimes before also. They beat us up, hit us with an iron rod, snatched our clothes and belongings and threw us off the bus on a deserted stretch.

“The bus occupants had everything planned. Apart from the driver and the helper, others behaved like they were passengers. We even paid Rs 20 as fare. They then started teasing my friend and it led to a brawl. I beat three of them up but then the rest of them brought an iron rod and hit me. Before I fell unconscious, they took my friend away.

“From where we boarded the bus, they moved around for nearly two and a half hours. We were shouting, trying to make people hear us. But they switched off the lights of the bus. We tried to resist them. Even my friend fought with them, she tried to save me. She tried to dial the police control room number 100, but the accused snatched her mobile away,” he said.

“Before throwing us off the bus, they snatched our mobiles and tore off our clothes in order to destroy any evidence of the crime,” he added.

“After throwing us off the bus, they tried to mow us down but I saved my friend by pulling her away in the nick of time. We were without clothes. We tried to stop passersby. Several auto rickshaws, cars and bikes slowed down but none stopped for about 25 minutes. Then, someone on patrolling, stopped and called the police,” he told Zee News.

The victim’s friend rued the fact that three PCR vans arrived at the scene after about 45 minutes, but wasted time in deciding under which police station’s jurisdiction the case fell.

He said nobody, including the police, gave them clothes or called an ambulance. “They were just watching us,” he said, adding that after repeated requests, someone gave him a part of a bed sheet to cover his friend.

“My friend was bleeding profusely; I was more concerned about her. But instead of taking us to a nearby hospital, they (police) took us to a hospital (Safdarjung) that was far away.”

The victim’s friend said that he carried his badly injured friend to the PCR van on his own as “the policemen didn’t help us because my friend girl was bleeding profusely and they were probably worried about their clothes”.

“Nobody from the public helped us. People were probably afraid that if they helped us, they would become witnesses to the crime and would be asked to come to the police station and court,” he told the channel.

“Even at the hospital, we were made to wait and I had to literally beg for clothes. I asked one ‘safai karamchari’ to give me some clothes or curtains and he asked me to wait. But the clothes never came. I then borrowed a stranger’s mobile and called my relatives, but just told them that I had met with an accident. My treatment started only after my relatives came,” he said.

“I was hit on the head. I was not able to walk. I was not able to move my hands for two weeks,” he said, detailing the injuries he suffered on that horrific night.

“My family wanted to take me to our native place but I decided to stay in Delhi in order to help the police. It was only after the doctors’ advice that I went back to my home and started private treatment there.”

“When I had met my friend in the hospital, she was smiling. She was able to write and was positive. I never felt that she did not want to live,” he said.

“She had told me that if I wasn’t there, she would not have filed the complaint. I had decided that I would ensure the culprits are punished,” the victim’s friend said.

He said that his friend was also worried about the cost of the treatment. “I was asked to be with her to give her strength.”

“When she gave the first statement to the lady SDM, only then I came to know what had happened with her. I couldn’t believe what they did to her. Even when animals hunt, they don’t mete out such brutality to their prey.

“She faced all of this and told the magistrate that the accused should not be hanged but burnt to death.”

“The first statement she gave to the SDM was correct. She had given that statement with a lot of effort. She was coughing and bleeding while giving the statement. She was on ventilator support. There was no pressure or interference at all. But when the SDM said that she had faced pressure, all her (friend’s) efforts went in vain. It is wrong to say that the statement was made under pressure,” the victim’s friend told Zee News.

When asked what suggestions he would like to give in order to ensure that such incidents don’t recur, the victim’s friend said, “The police should always try to ensure that the victims are taken to the hospital as early as possible and not waste precious time looking for government hospitals. Also, witnesses should not be harassed so that they come to the court to testify.”

He said that one cannot change mindsets by lighting candles. "You have to help people on the road when they need help,” he added.

“Protest and change should not only be for her but for the coming generations as well.”

The victim’s friend said that he wanted the Justice Verma committee - set up by the government to suggest measures to improve women’s security - to make the law easier for complainants.

“I would like to tell Justice JS Verma, Justice Leila Seth and Gopal Subramanium that we have a lot of laws, but the public is afraid of going to police as they wonder whether the police will register an FIR or not. You are trying to start fast-track courts for one issue, but why shouldn’t every case be fast tracked,” he said.

He further said that “only he can tell what he has gone through… what I have faced…”

He disclosed that “no one from the government has contacted me so far to ask about my treatment. I have been paying for my own treatment so far.”

When asked why people don’t want to talk about such issues in public, the victim’s friend said, “In our society, we try to hide such things. If something bad has happened with us, then we try to hide thinking what will the other person say. Also because our friends and relatives talk behind our back about such incidents, that we try to prevent them from becoming public.”

“If I had decided not to file the complaint and just call the incident an accident, this case would not have become this big.”

He rued the people’s indifference towards him and his friend when they were lying on the road. “They (the people) had cars, they could have taken us to the hospital. Every minute was important for us. But they didn’t. Who will change this attitude?” he asked.

He said his mental condition was so bad after the incident that he was not able to sleep properly. “I didn’t share this with anyone. When such a thing happens to us, we often ask ourselves: ‘Am I to blame for this? Why did I go to the mall? Why did I board that bus?’ I was not able to even speak properly for two weeks.”

He said that if his friend was “treated in a better hospital, she would have probably been alive today.” It may be noted that the gang-rape victim was first treated at the Safdarjung Hospital before being shifted to a hospital in Singapore, where she passed away.

He went on to say that one of the police officials wanted him to say that the police were doing a good job in the case.

“Why did they want to take credit for doing their duty? If everyone does their work well, nothing more needs to be said in the matter,” he said.

"We have a long battle to fight," he said further, adding, “If I didn't have lawyers in my family, I would not have been able to fight this.”

The victim’s friend also told Zee News, "I was in the police station for four days rather than being in a hospital where I would be treated. I told my friends that I had met with an accident."

"The internal judgement of the Delhi Police should prompt them to assess for themselves if they have done a good job or not," he added.

"If you can help someone, help them. If a single person had helped me that night, things would have been different. There is no need to close Metro stations and stop the public from expressing themselves. People should be allowed to have faith in the system," he went on to say.

"I never had thoughts of leaving her and running away. Even an animal would not do that. I have no regrets. But I wish I could have done something to help her."

“She has awakened us. If we can carry on this fight with her name, it would be tribute to her,” he said.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 05 Jan 2013 11:37

disha wrote:
suryag wrote:...I find his reasoning rationally sound, please let us know what you think...
Suryagji, you must be a really positive thinker!

Disha ji,

Why insist on more laws (which in turn means more bureucracy, more corruption, less democracy, more adharma)? When a person asks to make India safer place by inculcating morals which are present in Indic world-view in children at family level, I fail to see why this is bojitive thinking (I am assuming your statement above was sarcastic, if not, pardon me).

Those calling for more laws, stricter laws is exactly the same crowd which was rooting for stronger lokpal. We need less laws and more decentralization of power. Indian family is becoming more and more nuclear with kids growing up without understanding or any knowledge of dharma and culture. Making kids dharmik is the real solution towards making India safe and prosperous and clean. Laws won't fix the problem. It is like asking for stronger antibiotics against a disease but refusing to drink clean water. As it is, desh is very close to becoming a police state.

This is where the institutional asura of our system is revealing himself fully.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Jan 2013 12:15

SriKumar wrote:
chaanakya wrote: quote/1562 Fast Track Courts have been set up which have disposed of more than 18 lakh cases transferred to them./unquote...Why not fast-track all courts
Good point. Here's why I am in two minds about it, for now. Fast-tracking all courts would likely slow down the process of making implementation (could take several years, I am assuming). Fast-tracking all courts in India will require the judge count that you mentioned plus support infrastructure; which will take ages to fill and delay the process wholesale. MHO is that if the focus is kept on rape courts alone, the challenge will not be so large that it gets postponed by 1-2 years. If things extend by years, my feeling is that the matter will be forgotten/strangled under the mountain of bureaucratic inertia and short public memories. Of course, if all courts, or even most of the womens' courts can be fast-tracked without extended delays lasting years, I am 100% for it.

Law Commission recommendation that I have quoted gives clear indication of what you rightly said.

My point is that courts work at the speed of passenger train. Why not make them superfast -- Just an analogy.

All Courts dont follow the guidelines issued by SC. The disposal rates by individual magistrates are pathetic in majority of cases. Just make the accountable by setting stiff targets. That will bring disposal rate up to tolerable limit. Rest are changes in procedures to speed up.

Fast Track courts function more as Point to point service hence it is fast.

But the number of cases are so much that all this would not alleviate the situation. In any case we have to get more judges etc.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Jan 2013 12:35

Atri ji,

'families' are the real trouble.

. Welcome to the thread. The problem you see is 'Social'. So how can the solution be 'Social'. You see idiot is what idiot does and since society is the problem so a social solution is an oxymoron.

No matter that lenient laws were never even enforced, we should have even more laws. No matter the parliament is not on special sessions doing something that they do not do in normal sessions, we should have more legislation. No matter the police behaves the way it does or doesn't we should have more police. No matter the courts are government establishments they will suddenly begin to work faster.

So now the extra police force that is not there is going to enforce stricter laws that are not made and the new judges that are not there will deliver speedy justice with the able help of a large number of honest advocates that are not there. Then the good society that is not there will get rid of all evil and we will have world peace.

The only solution is the one that requires the maximum change to everybodies lives when the low lying fruits have not even been touched yet and waiting even more will only dishearten the society further. Enrolling the youth from healthier families into a more vigilant attitude is entirely talibunni. They could hurt the innocent. Talibun==Outraged Hindu. In any case there are no good youths around all have been compromised by samskaars that are just plain wrong.

Peace must be maintained at 'all cost'. Yup all cost.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Jan 2013 13:06

ravi_g wrote: Your comparisons are for unequal cities.

The crime situation in Delhi NCR is indeed very bad.

ravi_g, I think you did not look at the statistics I posted fully. The comparisons are with all cities.

In terms of general crime, Delhi is better than other metros by far (56 to 17 for Bengluru), for crimes it is a little worse than other Metros (3 or 4 ranks ahead and about twice as bad) -- and same as larger cities like Ch'garh and much better than even Bhopal (let alone Durg-Bhilai)

However Delhi also has higher expectations, since it soaks in a large amount of money not available to other cities, this is what I understand.

All I am saying is that statistically Delhi is not necessarily far worse than other places, roughly similar, and in the middle of rankings.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Jan 2013 13:14

Arjun wrote:
Sanku wrote:1) I do not see 2x difference between Delhi and Mumbai for rapes as hands down. Worse yes but not hands down.
Maybe there is a difference in the terminology we use. But here are the statistics for each metro on rapes per Lakh of population, so folks can determine for themselves where Delhi stands:

Of course I gave the statistic, so the whole goal is to show the reality vs perceptions so that the folks can decide for themselves.

However do note that you said the following.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... &p=1387343

Arjun wrote:
PrasadZ wrote:Heck No, IMO
Indian men are no worser or better than those of any other nation or culture.
Why is this a matter of opinion ? Shouldn't the answer be determined based on statistics?

I fully agree, statistics are important.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1387385

Arjun wrote:
Sanku wrote:Also the other cities in India are not necessarily different than Delhi, Delhi gets a lot of bad rap, but again statistics show that Delhi is not particularly worse than other cities.
I don't think that's true...Delhi is much worse than any other major metro in terms of per capita rape statistics or for that matter most other crime statistics.

But what is true is that per capita crime seems to be fairly high across the cities of North-Central India and North East India. There IS something different about either law enforcement or culture in those parts.

Clearly Kochi or Kollam are not in the above parts, and neither is Delhi worst of the metros as far as crime is concerned. Clearly.

The most that can be said is that Delhi has slightly higher incidences of one specific crime, viz rapes than other metros; that too by 2x.

I think to offer solution, we must first know the problems.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Jan 2013 13:42

Yes, but Sanku I am only concerned with rape statistics out here and in deriving conclusions from it....You are interested in a broader definition of crime - which is also OK, only that the two are useful for different purposes.

Here is a post I had made earlier:

The top states / UTs on the basis of per capita rapes, as per 2011 statistics: Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Chattisgarh, Kerala, Madhya Pradesh, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Tripura, Delhi.

Cities (out of the 35 largest urban centers) that Top in per capita rapes: Agra, Bhopal, Delhi, Durg, Faridabad, Gwalior, Indore, Jabalpur, Jodhpur, Jaipur, Kollam, Vishakapatnam

The primary problem seems to be with North-Central India and North-East regions...though Kerala & Vizag are the odd ones outside of these regions that also figure.

If I were to seek to identify any trends in the rape statistics, it is that North Central India (which includes Delhi, MP, parts of UP & Rajasthan, Chattisgarh) and North-East India show a disturbing pattern of higher numbers. Kerala as a state and some parts of Andhra are the exceptions to this ... and obviously that does not show either of those two states in a good light either.

I am a little confused now. Are you saying no general trend can be observed at all from the regional statistics on rape? Why is this such an important issue for you?

Added later: OK I see the problem now. I had made some references to general crime in some posts where I should have specifically mentioned that the conclusions related only to rape. I take back those specific comments - but my conclusions as regards rape statistics continues to hold.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Jan 2013 15:41

Arjun wrote:. Are you saying no general trend can be observed at all from the regional statistics on rape? Why is this such an important issue for you?.

Yes Arjun-ji; I think overall India shows similar patterns, some small differences exist, specific to local factors (party in govt, pop density, immigration influx etc) however the local factors cause only small blips.

What this means is that the problem is India wide and will have India wide solutions -- as is also being parallely discussed in other threads as B-ji and Shiv-ji says, a lot of discussion around high profile Delhi leads folks to forget that there is smaller India where the problem also exists.

Why is this important to me? I often think that a lot of mega trends get sidelined by micro analysis and/or Delhi becomes a easy cognitive scapegoat due to the profile -- therefore just knowing where we stand helps.

That is all (I am personally averse to regional/caste based profiling btw, the religious part of demographic is unfortunately clear in itself -- so there is very little to hide there, but I would not like to slice and dice the Hindu part, there be the dragons)

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Jan 2013 16:38

Sanku ji, well then we differ on some fundamental parameters....I am personally very strongly for report-carding (I wouldn't use the term 'profiling' since that conveys the impression that the 'profile' is permanent and unchanging, while a 'report-card' would just provide the latest ranking. I do actually expect to see significant changes in ranking every few years).

Sanku wrote:That is all (I am personally averse to regional/caste based profiling btw, the religious part of demographic is unfortunately clear in itself -- so there is very little to hide there, but I would not like to slice and dice the Hindu part, there be the dragons)

This would also put you in conflict with statistical reasoning..because you are starting off with the assumption that one should be 'politically correct' and not seek to derive meaning from data on inter-region or inter-community performance.

Also, it would be somewhat hypocritical to use statistics to derive conclusions between religions, and then not use the same for inter-regional or inter-community differences.

Frankly - the way I see it every region and community in India is unique and interesting. Parts of India do much better than the rest of nation in some categories,while the same parts may badly underperform on other parameters...East, West, North, South - each region has its own good and bad points. I am all in favor of a regular report-card on parameters that matter - so that each region / community can improve on its weak points.

Sanku wrote: I often think that a lot of mega trends get sidelined by micro analysis and/or Delhi becomes a easy cognitive scapegoat due to the profile -- therefore just knowing where we stand helps.

I don't think the differences are too minute, but even if that were to be the case - I would still highlight the relatively poorer performing regions. And that's because I think the process of constantly focusing on the weakest performers will ultimately result in constant improvement of Indian standards across the board.

Sanku wrote:I think overall India shows similar patterns, some small differences exist, specific to local factors (party in govt, pop density, immigration influx etc) however the local factors cause only small blips.

Only if we agree that certain regions are performing poorly can we go to the next stage, and start looking at what factors cause this performance - ie is it governance (party in power), population density, demographic mix etc

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Jan 2013 17:01

Arjun wrote:....

Arjun-ji; my personal experience says that report carding should not happen on levels of hindu society, geography is ok, social engineering is not. In any case there is no difference, the few perceived differences have been used so long and so often to create schims that I am very wary of letting those forces in once more. Once bitten 10000 times shy, and we have been bitten more than once.

OTOH I see nothing hypocritical in having different standards, it would by hypocritical if I wasnt being upfront about the fact that I am treating communities based on religion differently in India since the Indian state system itself differentiates between the two and provides "special status" for some. If I took a "same same" stand but then had two different standards, I would be a hypocrite. Here I reject that the religion based communities have same social issues. (this discussion is w.r.t. social issues of course not talking about citizen ship in general)

However for Hindu society since we are all the same, I dont want to slice and dice it any more.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Jan 2013 17:45

Sanku wrote:However for Hindu society since we are all the same, I dont want to slice and dice it any more.

Sanku ji, we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I have a huge deal of respect for Hindu society and its capacity for constant self-improvement...and its possibly the much higher respect and belief that I have for this attribute that leads me to a different conclusion.

Hinduism always had a small set of core beliefs, and provided latitude for significant differences between individuals and communities as long as the core beliefs held true...Constant self-improvement is also a core Hindu trait.

For this constant self-improvement to occur- one needs a feedback loop that points out where the deficiencies are...And if that piece is missing, then a core strength of Hinduism goes for a toss. Also for the government or social agencies to effectively channel resources - we need to know which regions / communities need these resources the most.

So, guess we will just have to pursue different paths on this one.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Jan 2013 17:57

Arjun wrote:one needs a feedback loop that points out where the deficiencies are...

I do not disagree with the above need, merely with the specific way. We can of course disagree, but I believe Chaankya too on another thread drew your attention to this.

Kindly do consider this very carefully. The goal is welcome, the method is contentious.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Jan 2013 18:07

chaanakya wrote:
Sanjay wrote:Can I ask a couple of questions ?

Is the rampant molestation/ verbal harassment etc prevalent in Delhi also replicated across rural India ?

To put it another way - and putting rapes and incest and discrimination aside (because we know they happen in rural India) - are women in rural subject to the same extent to the onslaught of verbal and physical molestation that occurs in Delhi ?

The other question is this: do women feel more unsafe in Delhi than in Bangalore, Chennai, Lucknow, Mumbai or Kolkata ?

Is the NCR palpably worse than the other metropolitan areas ? Again - exclude rapes - I mean the verbal and physical molestation that women suffer - is it less in other cities ?

Just for information - pretty bad in Sri Lanka as well.
http://www.dailymirror.lk/news/23912-la ... -asia.html
http://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.p ... sri-lanka/
http://www.colombopage.com/archive_12A/ ... 3007CH.php
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18889564

Please have a look at these tables.

http://ncrb.nic.in/CD-CII2011/cii-2011/Table%205.1.pdf

NE states fare better. Bias introduced by under-reporting is common across all states hence comparative data would be same even if multiplied by any number. Police display same attitudinal approach to these problems ( reflective of society as Sachin pointed out in one post).

Citiwise ranking is also given

Delhi - Numero Uno
Begaluru closely behind at second rank.
Hyd the third
Vijayawada is fourth and
Ahemdabad is fifth.

That is no solace that other cities figure lower in order. Every single incident is a shame. With better enforcement we need sensitisation right from the school.

I agree with you. It would be interesting to see if there is anywhere where women are more likely to report crimes against them than others.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 05 Jan 2013 19:16

Sanjay,

The little situation I have observed in rural India is that things are much worse for women.

It is a little different in that women are very very careful to avoid putting themselves in 'difficult' situation. To do this they voluntarily curtail their freedom completely. It is not unusual for women to ask for permission from men before going out.

http://www.nellai.tn.nic.in/hand_book/h ... 0_2011.pdf

For this data from largely rural Nellai Kattaboman district.
Rapes/attempts : 64
Molestation/dowry: 344, with 248 in rural areas.

IMO this is extraordinarily low. If you read the vernacular press, not a week goes by without 5-10 rapes and attempted rapes reported. Often buried on page 6 as a small paragraph. I would assume the vast majority the families quietly hush it all up to prevent 'mannam' issues. And it has always been this way. Many years back in to the 70's as far as I can remember, the rape of low caste women was considered a 'privilege' by big land owners. They would hire on women laborers and regularly subject them to assault. It was considered part of the social system. I can't image that there is a single young low caste laborer female who escaped. Since it was socially sanctioned even the women 'co-operated' and would not have recognized it as a crime.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 05 Jan 2013 19:30

chaanakya wrote: Just make the accountable by setting stiff targets.

How can a magistrate he held accountable? Is there any procedure for this in the normal course of their work (not talking about the new reality with the outrage). For example, does the current procedure have a reprimand, or for more serious things, a transfer.

Also, is there any provision in Indian legal procedure where, a law passed by Lok Sabha is re-assessed for its goals and the actual consequences that come about, say 1 or 2 years from the time of passing? Can one build in an automatic provision that brings it up for discussion and public comment, and alteration, if necessary? The 498a case is an example. I hear that judges themselves are calling for changes due to misuse of the law, but no one seems to be able to do anything to modify it, even in a minor way. Fast-tracking, putting time limits, with limited resources is a guarantee that some innocent people will be found guilty. This issue must be addressed or written into the current system, but I am not for waiting till there is perfection; simply because we've waited for long enough (MHO). Some of this has to be handled after establishing the new courts and fast-track procedures and people have a chance to see how the system actually worked (cruel as this will be to the innocent people who get snared in the interim). This is one reason why it makes eminent sense to have an automatic assessment of a new law, some time after its passing.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 05 Jan 2013 20:06

Atri wrote: We need less laws and more decentralization of power. Laws won't fix the problem.

Welcome to the thread. Just as a point of clarification, people pushing for the legal solution (as opposed to the 'dharmic' and cultural solution) here are also focused on implementation and speed of justice. It is not just more laws. In fact, for me personally, a timeframe is primary. You've heard: justice delayed is justice denied. Check the twitter feed that Lilo started, and the results of it are stunning to me (this feed collates all-India rape news after the Delhi rape). No one can argue against the fact extended trials are a huge part of the problem. People who raped once, if they are on the streets for 10 years until the trial is done, will rape again. Hence, justice within a time limit is necessary, IMHO. Surely after 65 years of independence, one could argue that the Indian judicial system should be able to deliver it? Deliver a judgement in a rape or murder case, within, say 6 months- generally speaking? If not 6 months, please feel free to suggest a different timeframe. We all know what happens when there is no timeframe- this is where we are currently.

Also, speaking for myself here, this is not an either-or approach. Dharmic/cultural approaches are also valid and important, even fundamental. It is time, however, that we start thinking about the next step and move beyond generic prescriptions to consider specifics.

Making kids dharmik is the real solution towards making India safe and prosperous and clean.

Please take a few moments to suggest how this can be done? Obviously, you've thought about this more than I have, and I assume that you have some suggestions on what steps can be taken? How do we make kids more dharmic? BTW, defining dharmic might get complicated, but take any definition you want.

Would you push for inculcation of dharma in kids at home or school? Or both? If it is school, I can already see a problem where 15% of the population might not want to take part in the the dharma solution. But, even 85% is not a bad number. Even 50% is a good number, IMO. So, would you suggest an extra class in the school system? How would you go about doing this? Force the central and state govts. to add 30 minutes to the student 's weekly schedule? The other alternative is to do it at home: have all parents talk to their kids (12 years to 20 years) that women should be respected, because they deserve respect. How can this be enforced, or ensured that this is being done? If parents assure us that they are talking to their kids, how do we know that it is actually happening? Or should we take them at their word that it is indeed happening (not being sarcastic, very serious- I just dont know how one can track anything that goes on inside a home, in any country; and quite frankly, I dont want the government in a position to ask you what the heck is going on in your home). I have only one request of people who advocate a cultural solution: please come up with some specifics on how to implement it- even the first step.

By the way, in the exhaustive list that chaanakya prepared in a previous post, included are cultural type solutions. So, no one sees this as an either-or situation, certainly, I dont. Where things are different now, i.e. after the rape+murder in Delhi, is that we want to move beyond advice (based on fundamental principles) and take a small step towards understanding how to execute it. Those who have some ideas on its execution should educate the rest of us.