Bharat Rakshak

arun wrote:X Posted from the “Oil & Natural Gas: News & Discussion” thread.

A month old article that has not been posted on this thread built around an interview by First Post of MD and CEO of Indian Strategic Petroleum Reserves Limited (ISPRL) which is liberally dusted with nuggets of information on our country India’s crude oil storage.

We currently have a storage capacity totalling 74-74.5 days of crude oil requirements. This is slated to rise to 86-87 days of requirement when ISPRL completes phase 2 of its plan. ISPRL built its present storage capacity at USD 17 per barrel of crude oil against global average of USD 23 per barrel:

‘India’s reserves built at $17 per barrel, global average is $23’

In stead of building the oil reservs, India could simply cut the oil consumption by going electric.
Indias oil import bill was 125 billion USD in 2018.

Charging stations cost a typical of 1000 dollars per unit. 10 billion dollars would be sufficient to build 10 million of them. Add in another billion for 10 000 fast charging stations along Highway (3 Cr per unit) About 5 billion. Hence the charging infrastructure would cost 15 billion.

A typical midsize car requires 60 Kwh for a genuine range of 350 km. The cost of a battery is 6000 usd (large scale poduction). A typical car should be possible to purchase for around 10 lacs. Lower spec and standard then Nissan leaf. It will run about 5Km per unit of electricity.

Hence cost of driving the car 1500 Km per month would be RS 1 800
Compared to an average car that gives 15km per liter the cost would be arround RS 7000. Hence the savings would be Rs 5200 (add lower maintnace, oil etc).

The EMI for the battery pack would be around Rs 5000 with interest rate of 9% .

So why go for something that is almost as expensive as oil cars? In stead of handing the dollars to the Oil rich countries, India will be spending it on the domestic market.

Add the benefit of cleaner air and less noise.

Do we have any local firms manufacturing electric cars of reasonable quality, those that can compete with the likes of Nissan Leaf and all?

If not, then we'll have to import them enmasse or entice those manufacturers to set up units in India. Instead of paying money to Oil-rich countries, we'll be paying money to import these cars or components such as rare earths.

How do you propose we enable mass manufacturing of quality electric automobiles in India that can compete with regular automobiles in terms of performance, mileage, maintenance etc.

Imports of Chinese auto parts set to rise as government pushes for electric cars.

Unless we take up manufacturing of electric vehicle parts locally, our trade imbalance with China will increase even more.

The regular auto majors themselves will be introducing ev
At present mahindra eeco and the reva are only ev in india and the aether energy scooter

Its not like phones where imports were made cheap to seed the 3g rollout

Car imports and auto comps have high duties

Has anyone made good ev bikes ? Thats far more useful to
India due to sheer volume of worlds largest bike market

Singha wrote:The regular auto majors themselves will be introducing ev
At present mahindra eeco and the reva are only ev in india and the aether energy scooter

Its not like phones where imports were made cheap to seed the 3g rollout

Car imports and auto comps have high duties

Has anyone made good ev bikes ? Thats far more useful to
India due to sheer volume of worlds largest bike market

Mahindra Verito EV and reva and Tata zest EV. Mahindra verito ev is India's first moncocque sheet metal body ev. It was intially a technology project using an existing platform (renault logan) modifed to accomodate a battery pack and electric motor. But, the real world mileage is very poor and the battery pack and hv cables were imported driving up the vehicle cost. By 2020 lots of EVs launches are planned by Mahindra , Tata, Hyundai and Maruti. But ,again the battery efficiency is iffy in India's hot summers. Liquid cooling of battery will help efficiency but drive up costs.

singha wrote: Has anyone made good ev bikes ? Thats far more useful to
India due to sheer volume of worlds largest bike market

B'luru based Ather.

Krita wrote:

Singha wrote:The regular auto majors themselves will be introducing ev
At present mahindra eeco and the reva are only ev in india and the aether energy scooter

Its not like phones where imports were made cheap to seed the 3g rollout

Car imports and auto comps have high duties

Has anyone made good ev bikes ? Thats far more useful to
India due to sheer volume of worlds largest bike market

Mahindra Verito EV and reva and Tata zest EV. Mahindra verito ev is India's first moncocque sheet metal body ev. It was intially a technology project using an existing platform (renault logan) modifed to accomodate a battery pack and electric motor. But, the real world mileage is very poor and the battery pack and hv cables were imported driving up the vehicle cost. By 2020 lots of EVs launches are planned by Mahindra , Tata, Hyundai and Maruti. But ,again the battery efficiency is iffy in India's hot summers. Liquid cooling of battery will help efficiency but drive up costs.

Suzuki has 0 ev presence overseas

Rahul M wrote:

singha wrote: Has anyone made good ev bikes ? Thats far more useful to
India due to sheer volume of worlds largest bike market

B'luru based Ather.

If it is Chinese made then it should be banned in India.

Hyundai announced a $1B investment in Sriperumbudur in January for an EV plant (DH link). They seem serious in entering the EV market in a big way and plan to launch a compact e-SUV later this eyar. Would take them over the thin-skinned Suzuki khataras anyday.

But looking forward to a Tata EV based on their new platform. Tiago is a nice candidate - well designed, safe, small size, city commute car, etc., and zero emissions would be icing on the cake. More later in the Autos thread.

^ That's great news. Although EVs are still in a false dawn, the Kona EV is a great car and hard to find in stock in the USA. Wonder if this plant will export cars to North America as well.

I think a Coimbatore based company is into electric two wheelers. Besides TVS Motors and Hero too, have unveiled plans.

Raveen wrote:

Krita wrote:
Suzuki has 0 ev presence overseas

Suzuki has the technology, they have been testing evs for a couple of years. EV Tech learning curve is simple compared to gasoline engines. Battery and electric motor and drivetrain is sourced from vendors. The work with an oem is platform, battery packaging, harness/HV cable routing ,layouting and testing. After 2023 CAFE norms, oems have no choice but to embrace EV.

Mort Walker wrote: If it is Chinese made then it should be banned in India.

It is not chini..full Indian..I have been following their journey for years..Guys with real passion into industrial design. They took their own time for full product development and testing without rushing into market with a half baked poorly built unit like many others. They profuct also looks tfta ..which is a bonus..If they succeed, it could a pocket sized tesla

Okinawa & Hero both have electric scooters at multiple levels. Once the FAME subsidies start to kick in, you'll see people buying electric scooters. Why would you fill up petrol when you can take your battery with you and plug it into the power socket at work and let it charge for free?

Prasad wrote:Okinawa & Hero both have electric scooters at multiple levels. Once the FAME subsidies start to kick in, you'll see people buying electric scooters. Why would you fill up petrol when you can take your battery with you and plug it into the power socket at work and let it charge for free?

It is not a mobile phone! Batteries for (even small) automobiles need much higher current to charge in any reasonable amount of time. I'm sure your employer's junction box will notice once 1 or 2 of these start getting connected regularly. Not to mention the fire hazard under every desk. One shouldn't be making these decisions on the basis of electricity theft.

Krita wrote:

Raveen wrote:

Suzuki has the technology, they have been testing evs for a couple of years. EV Tech learning curve is simple compared to gasoline engines. Battery and electric motor and drivetrain is sourced from vendors. The work with an oem is platform, battery packaging, harness/HV cable routing ,layouting and testing. After 2023 CAFE norms, oems have no choice but to embrace EV.

The first mention of Suzuki and EV using a simple google chacha search shows news dated September 2018 from Maruti to start testing in the near future and a first prototype was paraded in January of this year in New Delhi. Suzuki is a nobody globally, and more so in EVs. They have now tied up with Toyota to buy their hybrid and EV technology because they can't develop it in house - they don't have enough money to do that (plenty of reports pointing to that).

They'll be a minute late and dollar short with EVs (not to mention the terrible quality and safety) and the mango public will claim roadside screwdrivergiri as a reason to buy Maruti only saar.

Rishirishi wrote:

arun wrote:X Posted from the “Oil & Natural Gas: News & Discussion” thread.

A month old article that has not been posted on this thread built around an interview by First Post of MD and CEO of Indian Strategic Petroleum Reserves Limited (ISPRL) which is liberally dusted with nuggets of information on our country India’s crude oil storage.

We currently have a storage capacity totalling 74-74.5 days of crude oil requirements. This is slated to rise to 86-87 days of requirement when ISPRL completes phase 2 of its plan. ISPRL built its present storage capacity at USD 17 per barrel of crude oil against global average of USD 23 per barrel:

‘India’s reserves built at $17 per barrel, global average is $23’

In stead of building the oil reservs, India could simply cut the oil consumption by going electric.
Indias oil import bill was 125 billion USD in 2018.

Charging stations cost a typical of 1000 dollars per unit. 10 billion dollars would be sufficient to build 10 million of them. Add in another billion for 10 000 fast charging stations along Highway (3 Cr per unit) About 5 billion. Hence the charging infrastructure would cost 15 billion.

A typical midsize car requires 60 Kwh for a genuine range of 350 km. The cost of a battery is 6000 usd (large scale poduction). A typical car should be possible to purchase for around 10 lacs. Lower spec and standard then Nissan leaf. It will run about 5Km per unit of electricity.

Hence cost of driving the car 1500 Km per month would be RS 1 800
Compared to an average car that gives 15km per liter the cost would be arround RS 7000. Hence the savings would be Rs 5200 (add lower maintnace, oil etc).

The EMI for the battery pack would be around Rs 5000 with interest rate of 9% .

So why go for something that is almost as expensive as oil cars? In stead of handing the dollars to the Oil rich countries, India will be spending it on the domestic market.

Add the benefit of cleaner air and less noise.

Please look up who controls the world's lithium supply chain and who makes the most lithium ion batteries - would you rather hand money to them instead?

Hint:

https://qz.com/1292202/china-now-effect ... roduction/
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/china-r ... f-lithium/

Mort Walker wrote:

Rahul M wrote: B'luru based Ather.

If it is Chinese made then it should be banned in India.

did you bother to watch the video ?

My friends work at Ather they are good , their manufacturing is in Chennai, R&D here at Bangalore . The initial launch price might be a bit steep for tier 2 town dwellers but they are doing well in terms of installing the charging infra in Bangalore. As for Chinese content no one can build anything 100% in house that's the ugly truth it's better to import raw material and build it here as against import finished goods in that sense Ather is much better as against lot of phone makers that masquerade as Indian phone manufacturers.

JTull wrote:

Prasad wrote:Okinawa & Hero both have electric scooters at multiple levels. Once the FAME subsidies start to kick in, you'll see people buying electric scooters. Why would you fill up petrol when you can take your battery with you and plug it into the power socket at work and let it charge for free?

It is not a mobile phone! Batteries for (even small) automobiles need much higher current to charge in any reasonable amount of time. I'm sure your employer's junction box will notice once 1 or 2 of these start getting connected regularly. Not to mention the fire hazard under every desk. One shouldn't be making these decisions on the basis of electricity theft.

Please. http://okinawascooters.com/ipraise/

Prasad wrote:

JTull wrote:
It is not a mobile phone! Batteries for (even small) automobiles need much higher current to charge in any reasonable amount of time. I'm sure your employer's junction box will notice once 1 or 2 of these start getting connected regularly. Not to mention the fire hazard under every desk. One shouldn't be making these decisions on the basis of electricity theft.

Please. http://okinawascooters.com/ipraise/

Okinawa is Chinese kit being assembled by a company that pretends to be Indian and pretends to have expertise, with a misleading Japanese name thrown in for good measure.

Hero honda themselves have invested about 100 cr into Ather ; ex Flipkart types have also invested into Ather , also some of the leadership comes from Fkart.

Ather is 100% desi and is an excellent design. I had been to a couple of presentations from them.

Charging 2wheeler battery at workplace is a great idea. I can imagine a charging rack near our helmet storage rack.

There are products underway that will allow you to simply exchange batteries at kiosks.

nandakumar wrote:I think a Coimbatore based company is into electric two wheelers.

Did you mean Ampere? https://amperevehicles.com/

They were in the news recently, can't recall what about.

Dileep wrote:Ather is 100% desi and is an excellent design. I had been to a couple of presentations from them.

Charging 2wheeler battery at workplace is a great idea. I can imagine a charging rack near our helmet storage rack.

There are products underway that will allow you to simply exchange batteries at kiosks.

until battery tech develops to a level where one can do a decent amount of charge in a minute or so, that is the best possible solution. EV co's should definitely come up with a finance model that allows people to simply rent batteries till they are used up and then exchange the same for a fully charged one at an outlet.

Raveen wrote:

Krita wrote:
Suzuki has the technology, they have been testing evs for a couple of years. EV Tech learning curve is simple compared to gasoline engines. Battery and electric motor and drivetrain is sourced from vendors. The work with an oem is platform, battery packaging, harness/HV cable routing ,layouting and testing. After 2023 CAFE norms, oems have no choice but to embrace EV.

The first mention of Suzuki and EV using a simple google chacha search shows news dated September 2018 from Maruti to start testing in the near future and a first prototype was paraded in January of this year in New Delhi. Suzuki is a nobody globally, and more so in EVs. They have now tied up with Toyota to buy their hybrid and EV technology because they can't develop it in house - they don't have enough money to do that (plenty of reports pointing to that).

They'll be a minute late and dollar short with EVs (not to mention the terrible quality and safety) and the mango public will claim roadside screwdrivergiri as a reason to buy Maruti only saar.

Well, I work there, in rnd, So, I am a better authority compared to yellow auto journals . I have worked in Mahindra verito EV as well . Hybrid is way complex compared to evs. Suzuki has been testing hybrid s like range extender swift for long. Toyota tie up is mostly for hybrid/fuel cell tech. After all the the rhona dhona by naysayers, Maruti still commands more than 50 percent market share. Same will repeat in electric cars too. How many Maruyi vars you have seen being towed. So theae lame ass team bhpisque arguments regrding quality is baseless. And what quality do you expect from a sub 5 lakh car? For quality go for scross or other premium offering.

Krita wrote:

Raveen wrote:
The first mention of Suzuki and EV using a simple google chacha search shows news dated September 2018 from Maruti to start testing in the near future and a first prototype was paraded in January of this year in New Delhi. Suzuki is a nobody globally, and more so in EVs. They have now tied up with Toyota to buy their hybrid and EV technology because they can't develop it in house - they don't have enough money to do that (plenty of reports pointing to that).

They'll be a minute late and dollar short with EVs (not to mention the terrible quality and safety) and the mango public will claim roadside screwdrivergiri as a reason to buy Maruti only saar.

Well, I work there, in rnd, So, I am a better authority compared to yellow auto journals . I have worked in Mahindra verito EV as well . Hybrid is way complex compared to evs. Suzuki has been testing hybrid s like range extender swift for long. Toyota tie up is mostly for hybrid/fuel cell tech. After all the the rhona dhona by naysayers, Maruti still commands more than 50 percent market share. Same will repeat in electric cars too. How many Maruyi vars you have seen being towed. So theae lame ass team bhpisque arguments regrding quality is baseless. And what quality do you expect from a sub 5 lakh car? For quality go for scross or other premium offering.

Forget it, my response was personal so I'll delete it

We'll just agree to disagree about Maruti's and Suzuki's quality and standing in the global automatoive market, where they can only compete on price in 3rd world countries

Krita wrote: So theae lame ass team bhpisque arguments regrding quality is baseless. And what quality do you expect from a sub 5 lakh car? For quality go for scross or other premium offering.

So asking for a sturdier car is Team-BHP-esque, heh?

The Swift has always been a 5lakh+ car, hasn't it? What 'quality' did we get from it, apart from the matchbox like experience? The weight apart, doors felt like they'll move if I blow some air at it

Baleno at its price range does not feel solid either, despite whatever the Nexa people parrot. Yes, it feels very smooth and light when driving, but good luck driving it on highways in heavy rain with risk of hydroplaning. Oh wait, that's also Team-BHPesque, I suppose.

It's Maruti-Suzuki's luck that our people have been obsessed mostly with "kitna deta hai" so far, but that luck will run out at some point. Then Suzuki will struggle with their cheap-ass khataras and the image they have built with it. Only a matter of time. There is a reason that Suzuki is an almost non-existent brand in major markets except India. Tata is anyway challenging that by focussing their ads on safety, and such efforts will only increase at Suzuki's expense. Heck, even the humble Indica felt safer than the Swift, and I haven't seen many of that being towed either.

:lol all cars plying in India will fail phoren crash ratings tests. Tragic but True. Ofcourse, it has to do with affordability as well.

Depends, but the Heartect based cars are especially filmsy compared to thier peers, but why complain about Maruti when customers flock like bee to honey -offcourse the resale, VFM pricing always added with some last minute discount, excellent exchange offers on all old cars all make a difference. But I hope crash tests with Side impact, Pole, 40% Offset at 64Km come in, rear impact whiplash injury tests become mandatory and for our country impact of trees/ Poles falling on the roof. We don't need the European radar braking and lane departure tests which are practically useless in our country to affect ratings, these numbers like ARAI fuel economy numbers must be mandatory published- not just star rating but the actual safety scores. Let the customer decide what they want based on such mandatory tests.

Karthik S wrote::lol all cars plying in India will fail phoren crash ratings tests. Tragic but True. Ofcourse, it has to do with affordability as well.

No - not all. There are quite a few which have scored excellent scores in GNCAP (Global NCAP) which has a higher speed threshold for frontal impact. In fact the Tata NEXON has scored a full 5 stars and that is without side airbags!. Considering that the NEXON uses an older platform (the Vista X1), and still managed to score this speaks a lot about the safety of this car. In addition some other cars have cleared these tests with 3-4 stars. Surprisingly the only Suzuki (Indian) to clear this was the Brezza with a 4 star rating (that too just - if you look at the actual score).
The truth is till the consumer doesnt ask for a better built vehicle manufacturers will keep pushing tin cans at us.
It is also a fact that the largest car company in India lobbied hard for the crash test speed to be 56 instead of 64.

Exactly - the VFM argument for Maruti's junk is inherently flawed, because quality is valuable as well
Suzuki is plain matchbox sasta chalta hai junk - that's why kahin aur nahin chalta hai

There is a good review of Ather on team bhp recently
Ather Review

Quality has various dimensions. Safety, build, reliability, serviceability etc. Safety wise Marutis barring Brezza are Alkhalids while from a reliability perspective, engines are pretty decent. Clutch, transmission, brake pads, suspension etc have lower life but their availability anytime, anywhere at a lower cost make people think it is VFM. If not for better resale value for most of their products, the TCO is not cheap at all. Toyotas TCO is very low, reliable, longer life and they have graduated to 4star rating on their tin cans. Build quality leaves lot to be desired on the Japanese cars though.

Sridhar K wrote: Build quality leaves lot to be desired on the Japanese cars though.

Versus the Germans, sure

Guys, lets have some perspective here. Yes, most cars in India are unsafe compared to their counterparts in other countries. But remember that we still have millions of families (husband, wife + 3 kids) riding on bikes and scooters in India. Even driving the most unsafe Maruti around is safer than that. With low incomes and high taxes, the choice for a huge chunk of Indian consumers is between driving their entire family around on a scooter/bike vs buying the cheapest Maruti they can get. How many consumers look at crash scores and availability of airbags in India when they buy a car? It's not that safer cars aren't available. If the market demands safety, Maruti will have to improve or die just like anybody else.

I think govt. mandated minimum crash standards are a matter of time now, given the rate at which road fatalities are going up. just like it happened with emission standards. ABS has already been made mandatory for 2-wheelers in coming years, the move is clearly towards better safety standards.

public awareness too is rising. with increasing affluence and availability of decent highways going on long drives on death-traps is a very common occurence, which unfortunately makes traffic accidents the biggest factor for taking Indian lives. there's virtually no person who doesn't know someone who lost their life in a road mishap. that itself greatly influences buyers to look for safer vehicles.
a friend of mine, a gem of a guy was driving a suzuki when he was rear-ended and struck the vehicle in front. it wasn't a particularly hi-speed collision. he lost his own life, their eldest kid and the wife is in coma, perhaps permanently. a family destroyed just because we prioritised kitna deti hai over safety.

Better safety features pushes up prices which lowers sales. Auto industry is a major jobs program and no government wants to upset that cart and that is why you see them push emissions and safety standards time and time again. Otherwise things like front airbags and ABS would have been mandatory on all cars.

All cars sold in India beyond Oct 2019 should meet the upcoming Indian crash norms regulations. I think from April of this year, a series of safety features are being made mandatory on vehicles plying on Indian roads. These includes ABS, air bags & manual switch to disable auto lock among others.

Mandatory norms to make Indian cars and two-wheelers safer in 2019

From the above link:
April: ABS for Two & Four Wheelers
July: Speed alert system, Reverse Parking sensors, driver & pax seat belt reminders, Driver Airbag, Manual override for central locking system
Oct: Crash test norms compliance

As per the new crash-test requirements, vehicles will be tested for full-frontal impact at 48kph, offset-frontal impact with fixed deformable barrier at 56kph and side impact with a mobile deformable barrier at 50kph.

Isn't Latin NCAP specify a frontal impact speeds at 40 mph (64 Kph)?

Better late than never.

Zynda wrote:

As per the new crash-test requirements, vehicles will be tested for full-frontal impact at 48kph, offset-frontal impact with fixed deformable barrier at 56kph and side impact with a mobile deformable barrier at 50kph.

Isn't Latin NCAP specify a frontal impact speeds at 40 mph (64 Kph)?

Effect of this: ??

Nikhil_Naya wrote:It is also a fact that the largest car company in India lobbied hard for the crash test speed to be 56 instead of 64.

arshyam wrote:

Zynda wrote: Isn't Latin NCAP specify a frontal impact speeds at 40 mph (64 Kph)?

Effect of this: ??

Nikhil_Naya wrote:It is also a fact that the largest car company in India lobbied hard for the crash test speed to be 56 instead of 64.

But Maruti invests so much in R&D doesn't make substandard tin boxes that don't sell anywhere else /s