Electric vehicle and power storage

[disha]

^ What goes into setting up and maintaining a wind farm? And please quote sources. URLs and Calculations.

PS: Thanks for editing your post later. But please do not bring in politics to this thread.

[Amber G.]

^ What goes into setting up and maintaining a wind farm? And please quote sources. URLs and Calculations.

PS: Thanks for "editing your post later". But please do not bring in politics to this thread.

"Editing post LATER? Huh! Stop using cheap tricks (if not lying) to put innuendo to hide your ignorance .. nothing was "edited" or corrected/modified ... The link was already there and what was added was for additional information (again clearly labeled for other people.

I have taught physics/Math for decades, and as one of my guru said (about needless arguments)

अशिक्षितः शक्यो विज्ञातुम्, विद्वान् शिक्ष्यो भवेत्,
अर्धितविद् दुर्मतिर्नृणां, न तं ब्रह्मा विना शशाक।

Rough Translation: A person without knowledge (but who wants to learn) can be taught, It is even easier to teach a learned/smarter student. But for an arrogant person with half-knowledge, who likes to argue for argument's sake, is difficult to teach ..., even Lord Brahma cannot make him understand.

Sorry, I have better things to do than debate with someone who puts absolute nonsense "math/calculations" which would make "Jinn thermodynamics" look better argued. No friend," whales are NOT getting caught in the turbines, and they're NOT getting killed."

And let us see if there is any "URLs or Calculations" or source for any one of your points which I politely corrected .. ???

Will wait.."

[Vayutuvan]

@Amber G ji, this part "they are loud" is absolutely correct. In the midwest (we two are not too far from each other), farmers and folks near wind farms complain of very low frequency vibrations disturbing them through out the night. Low frequency "noise" which is irritantingly and randomly repetitive. It is like Chinese water torture.

Birds do get killed. Then there is this study which showed that North east p[art of Germany where they have a large number of wind farms, have suffered drought conditions as the wind farms are interfering with clouds being driven away before they can actually aggregate enough water molecules and produce rain.

It is a large scale. long term study in Germany. It was posted on LinkedIn. I may be able to dig up the reference or your yourself can google. I have provided enough information to narrow your search.

[Vayutuvan]

@Amber G ji, it is a valid ask. What Trump said is irrelevant. He cannot make any policy could not make policy for the last 3.5 years.

[Vayutuvan]

This quote is quite appropriate here

I do not pretend to start with precise questions. I do not think you can start with anything precise. You have to achieve such precision as you can, as you go along.

—Bertrand Russell (on approximate thinking)

[Amber G.]

@Amber G ji, it is a valid ask. What Trump said is irrelevant. He cannot make any policy could not make policy for the last 3.5 years.

y y

ONLY REASON I put that silly comment of somebody was to show how some people would bring up silly - even foolish points .. ..(Discussion is scientific not political)..

But seriously, Vayutuvanji, instead of nitpicking some irrelevant (or even 'valid') questions, why don't you contribute to this analysis in a positive way? For example, use your own metric and do some calculations. Yes, windmills are loud and kill birds, but let's consider the overall lifecycle emissions of wind energy compared to coal, as Najunamar was discussing. What is your analysis?


Please read the two easy-to-read resources I provided (or choose others if you prefer). Let me quote a few short paragraphs from the link in the previous post.

It’s true that wind power isn’t a zero emission energy source. Greenhouse gas emissions are produced when wind turbines are manufactured, built, maintained and decommissioned. But the “life cycle greenhouse gas emissions from solar, wind, and nuclear technologies are considerably lower and less variable than emissions from technologies powered by combustion-based natural gas and coal,” says the NREL.

To be more exact, wind energy produces around 11 grams of carbon dioxide per kilowatt-hour of electricity generated, Garvin A. Heath, a senior scientist at NREL, and colleagues concluded after reviewing the scientific literature. That’s compared with about 980 g CO2/kWh for coal and roughly 465 g CO2/kWh for natural gas, Heath found.

In other words, coal’s carbon footprint is almost 90 times larger than that of wind. The footprint of natural gas is more than 40 times larger.

Let us instead of obfuscating with side issues, which are more like nitpicking on what others said, focus on adding your own analysis. Thank you in advance (TIA)...

[Vayutuvan]

Why, sir, is Germany study not important?

[hgupta]

It is a large scale. long term study in Germany. It was posted on LinkedIn. I may be able to dig up the reference or your yourself can google. I have provided enough information to narrow your search.

No you bring the source directly. Don't ask us to search for it. If you want us to read something then give us the source directly. Otherwise you are just engaging in pedantic debate.

[hgupta]

For that one photo I can show you pictures of thousands of sites filled up with coal ash and waste leftover from mining coal that go way into million of tons of waste not to mention the environmental costs of strip coal mining such as removal of trees and biodiversity fauna. Let’s be fair about it.

Since you asked AmberG to do the calculations for wind power why don’t you do the same for coal power and calculate the costs accordingly?

You are basically tilting at the windmills.

No sir, you are tilting at windmills. Literally. Since you need to move out of wind based power discussion only. Rhetorics aside, I have provided the paper and calculations in the forum. You can do a search and read. You can do it on Amber's behalf or both of you can team up and do the calculation. But provide the data. Let's have a data based discussion.

No I will not do a search if you are going to refer to a past post. Why don't you kindly reproduce your post since you are more familiar with it and it is very easy for you to find it and reproduce it instead of making me search through all of your posts which I have no desire to do so. I am willing to read your referred post but not at the expense of reading all of your posts.

As I pointed out, mine are thumb rule based calculations. If you are not happy with it and you have factual data based calculations, please bring it forth!

Ok since you admit that yours are thumb rule based calculations then why are you going full steam at Amber G to provide factual data based calculations?

And yes, you can show thousands of sites filled up with coal ash and waste leftover. It must be shown, so that we can get people thinking of alternatives and how to clean up the act. Acceptance goes a long way. Both ways. Coal ash and tailings can be up cycled. Same for wind turbine blades. Can it be made scalable? Now? In short future?

coal ash being recycled??? when did that ever happen? Mostly it is dumped into landfill or discharged into waterways. And coal ash have been scientifically proven to be radioactive and contain heavy metals which can be toxic to humans. Only recently did we start thinking of how to recycle coal ash. But for the most part, coal ash have been dumped either into waterways or landfills.

Still the point remains and boils down to a simple fact, what is the unit input energy and output pollutant for a unit energy output comparison of wind and coal. Do add in Solar as well.

and you keep forgetting that one important fact - wind and solar is basically free fuel whereas coal is not free fuel. Sure building wind and solar farms have their own costs but if you take a look at the lifecycle costs, you will find that they have lower costs and lower capitated costs than coal. You need to look up the phrase: stranded asset and see how that plays into the lifecycle cost of a coal power plant versus wind power or solar power farm.

And the second part is evacuation of that unit energy, its transmission and distribution as an input reliable source to say EVs. And calculate that reliable input energy to miles driven. Yes, there is a cost to EVs as well, particularly the nickel, cobalt and mananese. We will come to that later.

Some of the above calculations have been done before across various threads on this forum.

My statement boils down to the following:

1. Energy shift from fossil fuels and hydro electric to nuclear, solar, tidal and bio-fuels (eg. ethanol, bagasse, seed oils, algae oils, gobar gas etc etc)*
2. Mass scale roll out of public transportation like metros, high speed rails etc etc
3. Conversion to EV for all vehicular transportation incl. large trucks
4. Conversion to local manufacturing and distribution wherever applicable and using urban waste as a source of energy

*Wind is not in the mix. Hydro-electric, another renewable source is not in the mix either as primary. Storing water for irrigation and generating electricity as an adjunct is fine. But that is secondary (implied in so many words).

Can the above be done in next 25 years? I think so.

I do not disagree with your above statement. In fact I would go far to say that we should implement carbon tax to accellerate the energy shift from coal and fossil fuels into renewable energy because with carbon tax only we can get a true picture of the actual costs that each energy source provides.

[Vayutuvan]

@hgupta ji, sure. I will dig up the ref for you.

[hgupta]

When I say carbon tax, I really meant pollution tax,i.e., the amount of pollution that each energy source contribute. Only this way we can get a true picture of the costs and benefits that each energy source provides on a per kwh basis. Another thing to add to the cost equation is the addition of energy storage and grid in order to provide 24/7 standby or as needed reliable electricity for each energy source.

I am under no illusion that wind or solar can provide the answer or panacea we seek. But I am of the firm view that coal based power is obsolete, on the level of whale oil, wood burning, etc.

And it was not renewable energy that made coal obsolete. It is natural gas that made coal obsolete. I think that natural gas is viable and will be viable for a long time probably for another 100 years.

[Vayutuvan]

Biogas forever.

[VKumar]

The disposal of Electric batteries is what worries me

[hgupta]

The disposal of Electric batteries is what worries me

Not if you properly set up recycling plants and set up a payment scheme where you factor in the disposal and recycling fee when you buy an EV.

[Mort Walker]

Electrolytic batteries are a non-starter. Better to wait for solid state batteries.

[sanman]

https://interestingengineering.com/ener ... -in-9-mins

Samsung’s EV Battery Breakthrough: 600-Mile Charge in 9 Mins, 20 Year Lifespan

Given the current high production costs, the initial adoption of these batteries will be confined to the “super premium” EV segment.

[Hriday]

https://x.com/ExponentEnergy/status/182 ... hTGiw&s=19

Big announcement today — We’ve partnered with Veera Vahana to launch the world’s fastest charging electric bus that rapid charges in 15 minutes

Made possible by our 1 megawatt charging tech, 3rd of its kind worldwide (after Tesla & Siemens), is proudly designed, engineered, and built in India

Today, electric buses are restricted to either intracity or short intercity routes due to limited range & long charging time ⏱

That changes today.

We’re electrifying the Bengaluru-Hyderabad route first. 650 km with two short stops mimicking an ICE-like experience whilst delivering up to 30% savings — unlocking long-haul intercity e-bus travel

See the video link below which explains their battery technology. They use ordinary lithium-ion cells, use refrigerated water supply integrated with power plug to prevent heat build-up.

https://x.com/ExponentEnergy/status/168 ... eUt-A&s=19

Our best kept secret on building the world's first affordable & scalable 15-minute rapid charging technology is finally out after 2 years!
Watch the magic unfold in the video below

In ~3 months, our tech has hit the road in BLR with customers and we've:

Powered 200+ EVs with our e^pack

Covered 10L kms on the road with customers

Installed 30+ e^pumps &

Completed 25,000+ rapid charging sessions

We're just getting started and will expand to 5 new cities in the next 12 months!

[sanman]

China to Sell Cars Minus Batteries At Low Cost



batteries on lease

[Cyrano]

https://stopthesethings.com/2024/01/29/ ... insurable/

Cost models of producing wind energy typically assume a production factor that is not borne out in reality. They also do not consider the huge grid cost to transmit the generated power to consumption points. They of course do not consider the intermittent and unpredictable nature of wind power, and therefore the need to back up - especially during peak usage periods - with coal, hydro, nuclear power sources that need additional investment.

Adding to all this we have serious doubts about the announced generation capacity vs reality even in ideal conditions, the true environmental cost of rare earth metals used to produce powerful magnets (Neodymium for ex), cost of maintenance, cost of recycling wind turbine blades (most are just dumped somewhere out of sight since recycling them is not profitable) ityadi... Note: All this only works for low kwh consumers like house holds. It cannot supply industries and rail networks which require high voltage.

While free supply of energy from an inexhaustible "green" source seems very enticing, the reality is far from the promise.

Batteries to store wind power during off peak hours for use during peak hours is another unviable idea given the technology we have currently and comes with its own set of problems.

Green drunk EU countries have poured billions since a few decades with only losses they are quick to brush under the carpet. Many alternative energy suppliers who make no investments in production, transmission, even distribution - smart metres etc (which are colossal) have made billions in the name of creating competition and pay powerful lobbies in Brussels to keep up the green hysteria while lining up their pockets with tax payer's money.

While there is some merit in pursuing wind power it is far from becoming a significant source of power that is reliable and economically viable on a large scale.

Before plunging headlong into mega wind farm projects, Bharat should examine the EU disastrous experience to avoid costly mistakes that we simply cannot afford.

[Cyrano]

Before you disregard the above as some climate denier rant,

https://www.power-technology.com/featur ... d/?cf-view

Companies do not write off billions from their books for no reason and then clamour for Govt subsidies. See the quotes from the company officials. This is as big as, if not bigger than the VW's diesel motor emissions scandal a few years ago. It got a lot of bad press world wide since automobile is a polluting industry.

[Cyrano]

Given India's growing needs and investment capacity as a <$3000 per capita economy, what should we invest in for the next decade or so? Nuclear, hydro, coal, gas powered electricity generation or wind, solar etc intermittent energy projects to look cool in the eyes of the West ?

[Cyrano]

Haven't gone through the paper yet but if you are interested take a look here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _wind_park

Note the part where they say connectivity to grid ie cabling cost is a "social cost" assumed to be paid for by the government therefore excluded from cost calculation, and presumably from carbon calculation as well

[sanman]

A Look at Mahindra's New EVs







Haha - I just realized - BE 6E sounds like "Be Sexy" - which has got to be a riff on Elon Musk's Tesla models S, 3, X, Y

[Cyrano]

Very very cool ! Buying Italian design house Pininfarina was a good move by Mahindra!

[sanman]

Very very cool ! Buying Italian design house Pininfarina was a good move by Mahindra!

Indeed! Check out the various reviews on this new Mahindra EV.

But I wish this BE 6e wasn't a rear-wheel drive vehicle, as this adds to cost and also rear-wheel drive is less stable under slippery conditions (rain, snow, ice, etc)

[Suraj]

Is anyone here willing to take on an undertaking that covers the following topics:
* Describe the main battery chemstries in use for EV batteries, e.g. LFP and their subvariants.
* Describe current Indian access to ores and rare earth elements required to produce these battery chemistries.
* Which elements have an import dependency ?
* What import content goes into current Indian battery production capacity ?
* How much is the current production capacity and who are interested in investing more ?

Please avoid posting opinions and commentary. This will be moderated to enable productive participants to post unhindered.

[sanman]

I just found out - apparently Mahindra is using BYD battery pack and Volkswagen electric motors for all its EVs, including BE 6e.

Since BYD is a carmaker themselves, then their decision to supply others like Mahindra means that they're going to launder their own OEM manufacturing supply chains thru other countries and their brands. This is one way for them to bypass tariffs. I've likewise seen Vietnamese EV manufacturing brands also fronting for Chinese OEMs.

[Amber G.]

Is anyone here willing to take on an undertaking that covers the following topics:
* Describe the main battery chemstries in use for EV batteries, e.g. LFP and their subvariants.
* Describe current Indian access to ores and rare earth elements required to produce these battery chemistries.
* Which elements have an import dependency ?
* What import content goes into current Indian battery production capacity ?
* How much is the current production capacity and who are interested in investing more ?

Please avoid posting opinions and commentary. This will be moderated to enable productive participants to post unhindered.

India's EV and power storage ambitions are heavily reliant on secure access to critical ores and rare earth elements (REEs).

FWIW - As a physicist, from what I know let me provide an overview. (Would be interested in what others think – or corrections)

Critical Battery Chemistries and Required Elements

Lithium-Ion (Li-ion) Batteries
Lithium (Li): Abundant in India, with estimated reserves of 1.5 million tons.
Cobalt (Co): Import-dependent, with negligible domestic production.
Nickel (Ni): India has significant reserves (10 million tons), but domestic production is limited.
Graphite: India has moderate reserves (4 million tons), with some domestic production .
Manganese (Mn): Abundant in India, with estimated reserves of 10 million tons.

Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt (NMC) Batteries
Ni : India has significant reserves but limited domestic production.
Mn: Abundant in India.
Co: Import-dependent.

Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LFP) Batteries
Li: Abundant in India.
Iron (Fe): Abundant in India.
Phosphorus (P): India has significant reserves.

Rare Earth Elements (REEs)

Neodymium (Nd) and Dysprosium (Dy)
Import-dependent: India relies heavily on imports from China and other countries.

Import Dependency:

India has significant import dependencies for:
Cobalt (Co): Nearly 100% import-dependent.
Neodymium (Nd): Nearly 100% import-dependent.
Dysprosium (Dy): Nearly 100% import-dependent.
Lithium (Li): Partially import-dependent, despite domestic reserves.
Nickel (Ni): Partially import-dependent, despite significant domestic reserves.

Future Initiatives:

Lithium: India is exploring domestic lithium deposits in Jammu and Kashmir, Rajasthan, and Andhra Pradesh.
Cobalt: India is searching for domestic cobalt deposits.

Alternative Supply Chains
Australia: India has partnered with Australia to secure lithium and cobalt supplies.
Chile: India is exploring lithium supplies from Chile.

R&D:
India is investing in research on alternative battery chemistries, such as sodium-ion and zinc-air batteries.

[Suraj]

Excellent starter material, thanks AmberG!

Is there data on current production capacity and output in GWh , as well as planned investment ? For context, CATL currently does approximately 210 GWh in annual output of batteries, mostly LFP I believe.

[Amber G.]

^^^ Thanks.
FWIW: Reproducing some of my thoughts which I have shared with other scientists (in other formats).

Allow me to add something here—something quite dear to my heart—and I think this is very relevant in this thread. Though most scientists in India know this, it is sometimes not widely known.

I talked about the vast thorium content in monazite sands in India (even in BRF's nuclear thread many decades ago) . Those sands also contain vast amounts of rare earth elements (REEs). Let me explain.

Monazite sands are a type of heavy mineral sand that contains significant amounts of rare earth elements (REEs), thorium, and uranium, among other components. These sands are typically found in beach and riverine deposits and are composed primarily of the phosphate mineral monazite

Monazite is particularly rich in light rare earth elements (LREEs) such as cerium (Ce), lanthanum (La), neodymium (Nd), and praseodymium (Pr), along with smaller quantities of heavy rare earth elements (HREEs) like dysprosium (Dy).


Monazite sands often contain between 50% to 70% rare earth oxides (REOs). Besides REEs, they also contain thorium (~5–10%) and uranium (~0.2–0.4%).

Rare earths extracted from monazite can be used in EVs (neodymium and dysprosium for permanent magnets), wind turbines, electronics, batteries, and more.

India possesses one of the largest monazite sand reserves in the world, mainly found along its coastal regions—Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Odisha, Andhra Pradesh, and, to a lesser extent, Maharashtra. Some estimates suggest reserves of approximately 11 million tons.

India’s monazite sands are particularly rich in thorium, which has implications for nuclear energy, alongside the rare earths. Many have talked about this, especially in older discussions on nuclear technology threads.

Challenges with Monazite Extraction

Extraction is complex. At present, India does not have large-scale rare earth extraction and processing capabilities. In contrast, China has well-established refining and separation technologies.

From what I know, due to the radioactive content of monazite, strict regulations (under the Atomic Energy Act) are required. This restricts private sector involvement and limits progress to some extent.

Recommendations for Unlocking Monazite’s Potential in India

Expand Domestic Refining Capacity

- Invest in rare earth separation and processing facilities.
- Develop efficient and safe extraction methods to handle thorium and uranium content. -
and hopefully reduce Import dependence..

(Focus on minimizing imports, particularly from China)

Strategic REE Export Policy:

Extract rare earth elements for commercial use while retaining thorium domestically for future nuclear energy needs.

India’s monazite sands hold immense potential, but unlocking their value requires significant investment in technology, infrastructure, and regulation refinement. We do have VAST amount of reserves

Resource: RARE EARTHS AND ENERGY CRITICAL ELEMENTS: A ROADMAP AND STRATEGY FOR INDIA

[Amber G.]

Excellent starter material, thanks AmberG!

Is there data on current production capacity and output in GWh , as well as planned investment ? For context, CATL currently does approximately 210 GWh in annual output of batteries, mostly LFP I believe.

From: <this link> and and this likn ;

CATL's current production capacity and output are indeed impressive, with aims to produce 1,200 GWh by 2025 . To put that into perspective, in 2019, CATL topped the list of largest battery cell manufacturers with 32.5 GWh.

CATL has invested around $2.1 billion in R&D in the first three quarters of 2023. The company has also announced plans to establish a 14 GWh production capacity in Germany.

One interesting thing - I talked about sodium-ion battery in previous post -- CATL is making significant strides in sodium-ion battery technology (and plans to mass-produce these batteries)

[Suraj]

Extraction is complex. At present, India does not have large-scale rare earth extraction and processing capabilities. In contrast, China has well-established refining and separation technologies.

From what I know, due to the radioactive content of monazite, strict regulations (under the Atomic Energy Act) are required. This restricts private sector involvement and limits progress to some extent.

It's probably worth going into more detail as to what regulatory, technical and industrial capability it will take to accomplish this. For example, has there at least been surveys of what areas are particularly suited to immediate mining due to their geographical and other benefits ?

Indian monazite reserves have been handwaved about for decades, with comparatively nonexistent effort to establish a mining supply chain, unless I'm mistaken.

The idea here is to understand what are the least effort set of policy, regulatory and industrial actions that can generate a 'farm to fork' infrastructure for Indian battery production, and what scale can it grow into - without being import dependent to the furthest extent possible.

[ernest]

Indian monazite reserves have been handwaved about for decades, with comparatively nonexistent effort to establish a mining supply chain, unless I'm mistaken.

IREL focuses on this ( https://www.irel.co.in/ )

They have started the first processing plant about a decade ago.
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 778_1.html

This capacity can be scaled with proper investment, and given the need to diversify away from China, and also to support our energy and high tech sector.

credits: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visual ... 1995-2023/

We have not been steady with our plans though. One plant was shut down during UPA, when we also had the monazite export scandal.

It may be noted, IREL had earlier set up a monazite processing plant at Aluva in Kerala with lower capacity. But it was shut down about a decade ago because of availability of rare earth compounds at market competitive rates from China.

Edit: looks like the Aluva plant was repurposed and there is another unit for mineral separation in Kerala.

[ernest]

From the website, https://www.irel.co.in/projects-under-implementation

Future plans to develop the rare earth metal industry include:

• Rare Earth (RE) Theme Park: Pilot Plants for demonstration of technology in the value chain of Rare Earths, Entrepreneur and Skill development.

• Capacity expansion of OSCOM plant: Increase in capacity from 2.8 to 6.2 lakh tpa of Ilmenite and associated minerals.

• Private Freight Terminal (PFT)- OSCOM: Conversion of IRELs Private railway siding to Private Freight Terminal

• Desalination Plant: Setting up of 5 million litres per day of seawater desalination plant.

• Rare Earth Permanent Magnet Plant (REPM): Setting up of 3000 kg of Rare Earth Permanent Magnet plant for strategic applications.

• IREL-IDCOL Ltd: Setting up of new mining and mineral separation plant for winning beach sand mineral deposits in Puri District of Odisha.

[Amber G.]

^^^ Let me post two good references .. (IMO, valuable information)
(Added later : Did not see the posts above --- thanks for sharing):

- From 'Azadi ka amrit Mahotsav ' - Minister of State and Prime Minister’s Office, Dr. Jitendra Singh's written reply in Rajya Sabha:

Mining of Rare Earth Elements

The Rare Earth (RE) resources in India are reported to be the fifth largest in the world. Indian resource is significantly lean w.r.t. grade and it is tied with radioactivity making the extraction long, complex and expensive. Further, Indian resource contain Light Rare Earth Elements (LREE) while Heavy Rare Earth Elements (HREE) are not available in extractable quantities.

In case of rare earths, a long drawn eco-system in value chain is required to move from reserves to finished product comprising of large number of processes/plants. This includes obtaining statutory clearances, mining, mineral beneficiation, RE extraction, separation, refining in oxides, metal extraction, alloy making. Specific to RE magnet, one need to convert alloy to magnet and thereafter application of finished product as motor in energy saving appliances. As such in a finished product, usage of rare earths is in minuscule quantity.

While India has existing facilities from mining to separation and refining in oxide form and also developed capability of metal extraction, but further industrial scale facilities (intermediate) from alloy, magnet etc. are non-existent. In these alloys, RE is a minor component and other than Rare Earth Elements (REE) many other materials are required. Though from the stages of metal extraction onwards, the sector is under free category,industry in the intermediate segment have not been established due to non-availability of technology.

13.07 million tonnes in-situ monazite (containing ~55-60% total Rare Earth Elements oxide) resource occurring in the coastal beach placer sands in parts of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Odisha, Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra and Gujarat and in the inland placers in parts of Jharkhand, West Bengal and Tamil Nadu. More than 80 % of the usage of rare earths in value terms is in RE permanent magnets which require Magnetic REE i.e. Neodymium, Praseodymium, Dysprosium and Terbium. These are precious REE since they find use in energy transition initiatives. High value REE are Dysprosium and Terbium which are not available in extractable quantities in Indian reserves already under exploitation. In Indian deposits, only Neodymium and Praseodymium are available and are being extracted upto 99.9 % purity level. Neodymium and Praseodymium occur in the BSM ore of Indian deposits to the extent of 0.0011 to 0.012%. Minability of REE is further constrained due to CRZ regulations, Mangroves, Forest and inhabitation.

In India, capability for exploiting its rare earth resources (Light rare earths) upto metal extraction exist. With regard to foreign collaboration, Toyotsu Rare Earths India Limited, Visakhapatnam, a subsidiary of Toyoto Tsusho Corporation, Japan is engaged in refining of rare earths by sourcing rare earth concentrate from IREL.

This information was given by the Minister of State for Personnel, Public Grievances & Pensions and Prime Minister’s Office, Dr. Jitendra Singh in a written reply in Rajya Sabha today.

- OPINION: Here's how India can end Chinese dominance in rare earths

Summary ( read the details in link above):

- Rare earth elements contribute a total value of nearly $200 billion to the Indian economy.
- China today controls nearly 90% of global rare earth production.
- India has the world’s fifth-largest reserves of rare earth elements, nearly twice as much as Australia, but it imports most of its rare earth needs in finished form from its geopolitical rival, China.

India has the world's fifth-largest reserves of rare earth elements (REEs), crucial for advanced technologies, but currently imports most of its REE needs from China. To reduce dependence on China and capitalize on the global shift away from Chinese dominance, India must reform its REE policy. This includes opening the sector to private investment, creating a Department for Rare Earths, and establishing a regulatory authority. By scaling up upstream and downstream processes, India can become a global REE supplier, powering its manufacturing economy and potentially generating ₹121,000 crore in capital employment. Partnerships with countries like Australia and the US offer opportunities for collaboration and strategic reserve-building, helping India ride the next wave of high-tech manufacturing and avoid missing another industrialization opportunity.

[Mort Walker]

From: <this link> and and this likn ;

CATL's current production capacity and output are indeed impressive, with aims to produce 1,200 GWh by 2025 . To put that into perspective, in 2019, CATL topped the list of largest battery cell manufacturers with 32.5 GWh.

CATL has invested around $2.1 billion in R&D in the first three quarters of 2023. The company has also announced plans to establish a 14 GWh production capacity in Germany.

One interesting thing - I talked about sodium-ion battery in previous post -- CATL is making significant strides in sodium-ion battery technology (and plans to mass-produce these batteries)

Thanks for the links. It looks like CATL with sodium-ion chemistries are nearing 200 Watt-hours/Kg. To put this in perspective, diesel has an energy density > 12 KWatt-hour/Kg. Even if a diesel engine performing on the lower side of 25% efficiency puts diesel at 3 KWatt-hour/Kg energy density which is > 15 times more energy dense.

[Vayutuvan]

One possibility is to use CATL batteries not for EVs, but for storing excess Solar energy for load balancing/load smoothing. Anyway, lot of civil works need to be built for large scale deployment of solar farms/windmills. They can build facilities to place large batteries at the points of power generation and push the stored energy into the grid as and when required. A "flywheel" without moving parts, so to speak.

[Suraj]

Dependence on CATL or any external battery manufacturer is not prudent economic policy.

Indian policymaking suffers from a repeated case of focusing on end-stage integration options at the cost of avoiding the details around building a domestic supply chain, and then we turn around and complain about a lack of manufacturing base.

The purpose of this discussion is to establish what the existing set of levers and barriers are around establishing this supply chain locally.

[Suraj]

Sodium Ion battery development just got covered in ArsTechnica:
Lower-cost sodium-ion batteries are finally having their moment

On Nov. 21, a consortium of seven US national laboratories announced a new initiative in which they would spend $50 million to foster collaboration to accelerate the development of sodium-ion batteries. The partnership is led by Argonne National Laboratory in the Chicago area.

“The reason we’re pursuing this is very simple,” said Venkat Srinivasan, a battery scientist at Argonne and the director of the new collaboration. “It’s because the huge demand in lithium-ion batteries has meant that we have a supply-chain constraint.

“We have a problem with cobalt. We have a problem with nickel,” he said, naming two of the metals often used in lithium-ion batteries.

Among the other benefits, sodium-ion batteries perform better than lithium-ion batteries in extreme cold. CATL has said its new battery works in temperatures as low as -40° Fahrenheit.

Also, a sodium-ion battery has much lower risk of fire. When lithium-ion batteries sustain damage, it can lead to “thermal runaway,” which triggers a dangerous and toxic fire.

The process of manufacturing sodium-ion batteries is similar to that of lithium-ion batteries, or at least similar enough that companies can shift existing assembly lines without having to spend heavily on retooling.

But sodium-ion batteries have some disadvantages. The big one is low energy density compared to lithium-ion. As a result, an EV running on a sodium-ion battery will go fewer miles per charge than a lithium-ion battery of the same size.

“That is just what nature has given us,” Srinivasan said. “From a physics perspective, sodium batteries inherently have lower energy density than lithium batteries.”

A typical sodium-ion battery has an energy density of about 150 watt-hours per kilogram at the cell level, he said. Lithium-ion batteries can range from about 180 to nearly 300 watt-hours per kilogram.

[Cyrano]

One possibility is to use CATL batteries not for EVs, but for storing excess Solar energy for load balancing/load smoothing. Anyway, lot of civil works need to be built for large scale deployment of solar farms/windmills. They can build facilities to place large batteries at the points of power generation and push the stored energy into the grid as and when required. A "flywheel" without moving parts, so to speak.

Most if not all solar and wind farms do not factor grid connectivity and load balancing costs to appear attractive. i.e they fudge ROI. Now if we add battery storage costs to such farms the mask drops and the fudge becomes sludge. That's why most projects don't include such "flywheels".

The fact that such solutions work for off grid survival jingos is true. But so is the fact that these intermittent energies cause all kinds of problems when scaled up and plugged into hydro nuclear or coal power grids and depending on latitude on the globe become quickly unviable no matter how much green lipstick is put on such projects.