Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Nov 2019 10:33

The Mk1A will use the three separate panels. The HMDS and HUD will form the backups. I think for the back seat, there will be a fourth screen in lieu of the HUD.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Nov 2019 15:33

Dileep wrote:At this point the HMDS doesn't support this backup capability AFAIK. There was some mention of bringing it to the fold, but I have no input on that. That is one point I should ask the chaiwale next time

The HUD is getting a major upgrade BTW. Waveguide optics and DLP technologies will come in, and we will be at state of the art. Should start thinking about holography soon.

Is that an upgrade of the HUD for the Mk1A and MWF? I suppose it won't be a replacement for the existing HUD on the Tejas Mk1?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 17 Nov 2019 17:49

^^It will be for MK1A and MWF. Not sure if it can be back integrated to MK1

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 18 Nov 2019 11:49

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 101751.cms

How is the progress of the Light Combat Aircraft and AMCA projects?
DRDO Chief: An advanced version, the LCA MK II, is the next aero platform. LCA MK II configuration is frozen and qualitative requirements are finalised. It is our endeavor to develop the fifth-generation advanced multi-role combat aircraft (AMCA) as per the project schedule to meet the Air Force’s requirements. We should be in a position to roll out the first AMCA within five years of project approval. We are not comparing AMCA with other aircraft, but are trying to meet the specifications given to us by IAF.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2019 01:09

sivab wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 101751.cms

How is the progress of the Light Combat Aircraft and AMCA projects?
DRDO Chief: An advanced version, the LCA MK II, is the next aero platform. LCA MK II configuration is frozen and qualitative requirements are finalised. It is our endeavor to develop the fifth-generation advanced multi-role combat aircraft (AMCA) as per the project schedule to meet the Air Force’s requirements. We should be in a position to roll out the first AMCA within five years of project approval. We are not comparing AMCA with other aircraft, but are trying to meet the specifications given to us by IAF.

Take a bow guys.
First time IAF will have a state of the art fighter plane built to their specifications.
Not something they buy and add equipment to it.

This is a huge change in perception of the IAF which pitched in for any available plane regardless of logistics, basing etc.
Its transforming into a fighting force and not just pilot driven.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2019 01:12

This will also cut down on news media shills who promote foreign products at the cost of Indian made systems.

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Nov 2019 20:07

srai wrote:^^^
Then there is HMD as well.

Please elaborate , isn't that pic Elbit s F35 conformed HMDS

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 20 Nov 2019 20:34

ramana wrote:This will also cut down on news media shills who promote foreign products at the cost of Indian made systems.

Ramanaji
This is from a NTCD (Non-Technical Confused Desi) :
1.What is the need for Mark II platform, yaniki if it's going to take 10 yrs at-least to come through why go through the 'Birthing Pains' can we not concentrate on what is achievable and doable.
2. Is MWF is aka Mark II, and if so will the IAF buy it now that the carrot of Unobtanium ( AMCA in 5 yrs) has been dangled.
3. will MWF or can MWF be suitable for navy as well or are they hell bent on TEDBF AND if that is the case then why not thus modify AMCA naval version and be done with it.
Why this tamasha for another 10 years
We could identify common engine maker for all the above and ask them to set up a manufacturing unit in India. And also any chance of supportin Kaveri by the same???
The reason I am asking is:
1. General elections in 2024 Kaun ayega kya patha??

2. New ACM in a couple of yrs What he is going to do

3. Babu log aka Kabab me haddi always there

4. Concerned Liberandus aka sinha/shourie/poori etcs will always be there

5. And lastly but most importantly the 'Aam Admi' what he is going to do and who will he vote in 2024??
If any two/three of the above 5 changes then the tamasha will repeat

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2019 21:23

Rsatchi wrote:
ramana wrote:This will also cut down on news media shills who promote foreign products at the cost of Indian made systems.
Ramanaji
This is from a NTCD (Non-Technical Confused Desi) :
1.What is the need for Mark II platform, yaniki if it's going to take 10 yrs at-least to come through why go through the 'Birthing Pains' can we not concentrate on what is achievable and doable.
2. Is MWF is aka Mark II, and if so will the IAF buy it now that the carrot of Unobtanium ( AMCA in 5 yrs) has been dangled.
3. will MWF or can MWF be suitable for navy as well or are they hell bent on TEDBF AND if that is the case then why not thus modify AMCA naval version and be done with it.
Why this tamasha for another 10 years
We could identify common engine maker for all the above and ask them to set up a manufacturing unit in India. And also any chance of supportin Kaveri by the same???
The reason I am asking is:
1. General elections in 2024 Kaun ayega kya patha??
2. New ACM in a couple of yrs What he is going to do
3. Babu log aka Kabab me haddi always there
4. Concerned Liberandus aka sinha/shourie/poori etcs will always be there
5. And lastly but most importantly the 'Aam Admi' what he is going to do and who will he vote in 2024??
If any two/three of the above 5 changes then the tamasha will repeat

Answers to questions that I can answer:
1. IAF has said they will source new combat planes from India only. Rafale is last buy. Having said that the upgraded M2Ks will be quite old and need replacement. If you note MkII is almost same as M2K in specs. And the trio: DRDO, IAF, and HAL are concentrating on achievable and doable. All under watchful eye.
2. The MkII acquisition is regardless of AMCA. Both are needed in their own time. So decouple the idea in the mind.
3. No. Very clearly all over the world an air force plane has never worked for the navy as there are differences in environments and requirements. Eg. F-4 Phantom et al. So Naval LCA will lead to Naval LCA MKII. TEDBF is future twin engine plane. I don't think the 57 planes requirement will be imported regardless what chatteratti say. If the Naval MKII is cancelled they will get the Naval LCA MKI as it is just now qualified.
Bonus question engine is national priority and will be take up as such.

Rest in political thread.

In future separate political from technical.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 20 Nov 2019 21:36

^^the main thing would be to fund and staff these programs. I may not be the most knowledgebale person here, but I am quite sure the things that are being tried are all due to the success of Tejas MK1 program and a govt that has decided enough is enough...many of these things will be in parallell..i have seen pages of pages being crawled over here for a twin engine tejas..and here it is today right in front of us (ok on jpegs for now)

if we want to be where we want to be in aero design, we need to do all this. The only thing i would like to see and i dont see is a solid committment to engine program..may be the time for that hasnt come

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 01 Jan 2020 13:20

Folks, A Tender for MK2 Cockpit (for Simulator) is published at the eprocure portal by ADA. Direct links don't work, so please open the eprocure site and search for Tender ID: COM_IND_E236_2019_2020/2019_DDRD_310788_1

Enjoy!!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Jan 2020 14:27

^^ There is another tender for SW (flight simulation visualisation models) for simulator. Two mockup cockpit models to be made, as per tender, one for pilots, one for visitors.

As discussed earlier, MK2 will have 20"x68" and 5"x5" displayes.

PS: My bad, I miscalculated. Its 20x8

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 01 Jan 2020 17:49

What I heard was 20" X 8", but a few very close dimensions are also being considered.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jan 2020 18:15

If the Raffy is the "last white hope", with the IAF not buying any more firang fighters in future, why is the 114 fighter req. still on the table with the Yanquis doing everything they can to sell us the F-16 wwith new make- up (F-21) and/ or the F-18SH?
Let HAL deliver the 80+ MK-1As on time ( prod. rates must be faster) , of uniform quality and meeting all expected performance parameters before such statements are made.We have conflicting reports about very little money to spread around for desi proogrammes and that the MK-2 may bite the dust in favour of the AMCA expected only by 2035,etc.,etc. Some reports have it that since all competeing aircraft have been evaluated earlier, a faster decision may be made this year.

The only desi programmes that appear to be taking off are the MK-1A, MKI upgrades to SS/ BMos std., and limited Jag upgrades. MIG-29 upgrades appear to be over and M2K upgrades plodding along slowly because of v.high cost.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Jan 2020 18:55

Dileep wrote:What I heard was 20" X 8", but a few very close dimensions are also being considered.

I miscalculated. Should be 20x8 only. Tender does say not the final dimensions.

Thats same as what F35 will likely to get. Elbit has got the contract and one news item claimed its the largest size of LCD panel ever made for Mil Application.

Who is making these panels for LCA..?? Samtel??

HAL has already shown in AeroIndia their LAD in SPORT and in Advanced Cockpit concept. I cannot remember if I had seen them in my visit.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jan 2020 00:31

Images are not working, so please click on link below....

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 69216?s=20 ---> It may be a festive season but work never stops. ADA has released an eTender for the production of 2 Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) full mission simulators- revealing, for the first time, the final cockpit configuration for the in-development MWF/LCA Mk 2.

https://twitter.com/Veerendra_DFI/statu ... 02304?s=20 ---> Some screenshots from the tender

https://twitter.com/Veerendra_DFI/statu ... 1155815425

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Jan 2020 07:50

>>Who is making these panels for LCA..?? Samtel??

Nothing finalized yet as I hear. A number of people are vying for the opportunity. Samtel obviously have a leg up in anything to do with LCDs, and HAL would definitely prefer their Samtel JV.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Jan 2020 07:55

JayS wrote:
Dileep wrote:What I heard was 20" X 8", but a few very close dimensions are also being considered.
I miscalculated. Should be 20x8 only. Tender does say not the final dimensions.

Thats same as what F35 will likely to get. Elbit has got the contract and one news item claimed its the largest size of LCD panel ever made for Mil Application.

Who is making these panels for LCA..?? Samtel??

HAL has already shown in AeroIndia their LAD in SPORT and in Advanced Cockpit concept. I cannot remember if I had seen them in my visit.

Elbit is going to be producing the LED panels for the F-35 block 4 using production facilities its USA devision acquired a while back. The current LCD Panels in the block 3 are made by various manufacturers with the largest one being a consortium led by Panasonic iirc .

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jan 2020 08:30

Rakesh wrote:Images are not working, so please click on link below....

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 69216?s=20 ---> It may be a festive season but work never stops. ADA has released an eTender for the production of 2 Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) full mission simulators- revealing, for the first time, the final cockpit configuration for the in-development MWF/LCA Mk 2.

https://twitter.com/Veerendra_DFI/statu ... 02304?s=20 ---> Some screenshots from the tender

https://twitter.com/Veerendra_DFI/statu ... 1155815425

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jan 2020 13:55

Dileep wrote:Folks, A Tender for MK2 Cockpit (for Simulator) is published at the eprocure portal by ADA. Direct links don't work, so please open the eprocure site and search for Tender ID: COM_IND_E236_2019_2020/2019_DDRD_310788_1

Enjoy!!

Couldn't find it.

Never mind, the images posted do the job.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Jan 2020 15:24

Go to https://defproc.gov.in/nicgep/app
Click "Active Tenders"
Search for Tender ID: 2019_DDRD_310788_1

Kartik wrote:
Dileep wrote:Folks, A Tender for MK2 Cockpit (for Simulator) is published at the eprocure portal by ADA. Direct links don't work, so please open the eprocure site and search for Tender ID: COM_IND_E236_2019_2020/2019_DDRD_310788_1

Enjoy!!
Couldn't find it.

Never mind, the images posted do the job.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Jan 2020 15:55

Simply Amazing supposed TEDBF. If this is anywhere close it is one TFTA jet, like the name too ORCA - Omni Role Combat Aircraft:

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12121 ... 9224970241

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 02 Jan 2020 16:48

It took me back to his Video about the SPORT .... the ORCA

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 02 Jan 2020 19:02

The nose of OCRA seems faceted for stealth.

Now would this mean that Navy is going for horizontal tails for LCA MK2 but Canards for TEDBF?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jan 2020 23:51

srai wrote:...

You Rock! Thank You Saar

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jan 2020 00:07

I asked JayS on twitter how close is the cockpit display to the Grippen?
I got a lot of answers that it is very close.

This is crucial for the IAF likes the Grippen display!!!

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 03 Jan 2020 00:21

Gyan wrote:The nose of OCRA seems faceted for stealth.

Now would this mean that Navy is going for horizontal tails for LCA MK2 but Canards for TEDBF?

Design closely resembles Mirage 4000, so looks like we took up design that Dassault didn't move forward with or we got some ToT. That means Rafale for second tranche of fighters will be a reality and more support to Kaveri.

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/pa ... rage-4000/

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Jan 2020 00:30

Just a thought, why would you think that this design would be close to a defunct Mirage 2000 and any less than a Rafale?

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 03 Jan 2020 00:37

Indranil wrote:Just a thought, why would you think that this design would be close to a defunct Mirage 2000 and any less than a Rafale?

Because : a) 4000 and rafale itself evolved from M2K, b) 4000 was the all carbon composite frame similar to direction we took with LCA, c) and the design posted by the ADA Test pilot is closest to 4000.d) Proven design

Ofcouse under the hood we will have more latest tech but the design inspiration truly remains 4K (and understandably) to take proven design and fine tune it so that Navy will have a jet quicker rather than having another installment of interim imports.

PS : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSyjDRUwaE4
(at 1:21 onwards you see a replica of earlier versions that is almost close to our LCA).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYueaFelZ9U

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jan 2020 00:40

Evolutionary vs revolutionary designs.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Jan 2020 00:57

krishna_krishna wrote:
Indranil wrote:Just a thought, why would you think that this design would be close to a defunct Mirage 2000 and any less than a Rafale?
Because : a) 4000 and rafale itself evolved from M2K, b) 4000 was the all carbon composite frame similar to direction we took with LCA, c) and the design posted by the ADA Test pilot is closest to 4000.d) Proven design

Ofcouse under the hood we will have more latest tech but the design inspiration truly remains 4K (and understandably) to take proven design and fine tune it so that Navy will have a jet quicker rather than having another installment of interim imports.

PS : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iLvv1h78qg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYueaFelZ9U

I will just say this. Rafale has wonderful lineage not Mirage 4000, but from much earlier.

I am finding out about ORCA now. But certainly, it is in a very preliminary design stage right now, obviously having a lineage from MWF and therefore Tejas.

At no point of time did LCA's and Mirages lineage overlap. They could have if we chose the Novi Avion, but did not. If you like details, you would know how different Mirage 2000 is from LCA. From inlet to engine, from wings to weapons. I mean think about it it, what is common between Mirage and LCA? There are many who say LCA looks like a Mirage and hence must be influenced. I have stopped wasting time on educating them.

So, please stop saying that ORCA is influenced by Mirage 4000 or that we got some kind of knowledge transfer for the same. People will pick up that, put masala and run long threads with it.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 03 Jan 2020 01:05

Indranil wrote:I am finding out about ORCA now. But certainly, it is in a very preliminary design stage right now, obviously having a lineage from MWF and therefore Tejas.

Indranil there is no official release of pictures so this is no way a confirmation and or support to some concept, but definetly when we have something released by someone close to things we can and should try to evaluate the information presented.

During Cold Wars there were many aircrafts that were inspiration for others and vice a versa, so to say that some inspiration is there is definitely legit but you may disagree with that. I get your point that people will start making stories but have they not already with our LCA that is /was grippen in the making and how far we are behind that so called uber TFTA (ofcouse as we both know is a bull crap).

I am no aviation expert, but that should not stop on discussion or debating otherwise its just not a healthy environment.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 03 Jan 2020 01:30

krishna_krishna wrote: Design closely resembles Mirage 4000, so looks like we took up design that Dassault didn't move forward with or we got some ToT.

Dude, how come you consistently come to the wrong conclusion? You could have said that because this was has wings and powered flight, we might have got TOT from Wright brothers themselves.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 03 Jan 2020 01:38

Jay wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote: Design closely resembles Mirage 4000, so looks like we took up design that Dassault didn't move forward with or we got some ToT.
Dude, how come you consistently come to the wrong conclusion? You could have said that because this was has wings and powered flight, we might have got TOT from Wright brothers themselves.

Dude by that logic every plane maker in the world should pay royalty to wright brothers all the time or the guy who invented wheels or engine or a nut bolt. You can than make claim that I came to wrong conclusion all the time. I will buy that. BTW did you even see the image posted by Harsh vardhan thakur ?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Jan 2020 02:06

To me it really looks like the Tejas! I thought it was the preliminary concept art for MWF actually and didn't notice the twin engine config really. Was really happy to see CFTs! and nothing else mattered - extra engine meeeh!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Jan 2020 02:12

Indranil wrote: I will just say this. Rafale has wonderful lineage not Mirage 4000, but from much earlier.

Was reading some stuff about Rafale somewhere. Only vaguely remember it now. But interestingly Rafale and EF2000 had common ancestry it seems. Both originated from the same common European program. Obviously. DA would have used the experience gained from M4K too in Rafale later.

It's much easier to stick another engine in MWF or NLCA than borrowing completely different design altogether. That would be an absurd thing to do.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Jan 2020 05:03

Most probably, you are speaking of the ECA program between France, GB and Germany. Actually, France already kind of knew what they wanted to build based on a program called ACT92 which started about 1978 (for a fighter that would be operationalized by 1992). They had studied many configs and settled on 4 by the time they joined the ECA in 1981 (IIRC). France got everybody to agree that the fighter should be delta canard with single fin. But it could not make the consortium agree that the propulsion would also be French and that the lead design agency would be Dassault. (Why would Germany and GB agree?!!!) So, France was in and out of the program within 2 years. ACT92 materialized into Rafale and GB/Germany went on to design the EAP which was also a delta canard with a single fin which is the father of the Eurofighter.

Frankly, I don't understand the ORCA design!!! Obviously, I don't know much yet, but this seems brutish. They have fattened the fuselage. I think they have added a chine and the canards seem to have a wider chord. But I don't think they have lengthened the fuselage, because if they did, why would they need the CFTs. It seems like they are just trying to say to hell with wave drag, we will just punch through it with an extra engine. It just doesn't sit right to my eye. Looks too stub.

I am going to share a personal opinion. HAL has its strengths. The upgrade programs over the last decade are all awesome. The culmination of that expertise would be the Mk1A/SPORT and Super 30 upgrade programs in this decade. But, fighter aircraft aerodynamics is not its forte. There, ADA is well ahead of it. And therefore, for now, HAL should let ADA do the airframe designs for TEDBF and AMCA.

But HAL could get there. SPORT is a premium LIFT. Think about it, SPORT has higher specs than any other LIFTs out there. The Boeing/SAAB T-7 and the KAI T-50 come close, but they are not bristling with as much avionics and technology. Consequently, T-7s will be cheaper at around 20 million a piece. On top of that it will be built in the 100s, may be even more than a 1000 as adaptations are used to replace T-22, and F-5 variants around the world. Think of the economies of scale. KAI T-50 has the LM brand-name? China-inclined countries can chose between the L15 or the JF-17-trainer. But, what will HAL lean on for SPORT? Which airforce would like to have a LIFT which costs around 30-40 million dollars?

If HAL wants to cut teeth on fighter design, it should look at an AJT which is more performant than the Hawk. We can't beat a Hawk with another Hawk. It is a wonderful aircraft at a great success story at BAe. HJT-39 would be fine as an AJT for IAF. But why would a third party look at it beyond the Yak 132 derivatives from EU, Russia and China?! I think HAL should carve out a niche for its AJT: A simple AJT weighing around 4.2 tons empty and an MTOW of 7 tons, powered by a single afterburning turbofan. The engine could be F125IN (or AI222-25) class to an M88 class. With a dash speed of 1.3M. The trainer is capable of IFR, but does not carry a radar. It only carries a radar simulator. The fighter variant has the student seat removed and replaced with extra avionics and radar in the nose. I am reading up to define the outlines of an aircraft like this. It is very much possible. The Chinese have one such aircraft derived out of the Mig21, namely JL-9/FTC-2000. But that is powered by a turbojet. Look at West's compatriot to the Mig21, the F-5 IIE. It has near identical E-M diagram with the Mig21. Look at the latest iterations from Singapore Thailand or Brazil. They are very nifty fighters. Or even the US Navy's latest acquisitions for aggressors (over F16s!)

I would just trade the top speed of 1.6 M for better low speed handling for a trainer. An F125 or AI 222 have the same TWR and SFC as the turbojets on the F5 which were very advanced for their age.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jan 2020 05:27

Gyan wrote:The nose of OCRA seems faceted for stealth.

Now would this mean that Navy is going for horizontal tails for LCA MK2 but Canards for TEDBF?

IMO, that is just because the person that drew that didn't do a good job and not because of a deliberate intent to show a radome with a chine for stealth.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jan 2020 05:32

ramana wrote:I asked JayS on twitter how close is the cockpit display to the Grippen?
I got a lot of answers that it is very close.

This is crucial for the IAF likes the Grippen display!!!

Ramana ji, the IAF hasn't yet evaluated the Gripen E/F with the LAD display that is being built by AEL Sistemas in Brazil. The IAF pilots that have flown in the Gripen C/D with it's older MFD displays appreciated the overall cockpit layout, the presentation of data and the general situational awareness as a result.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jan 2020 05:36

Indeed Kartik. This video is from Aero India 2017. The pilot in question is Group Captain Suneet Krishna (retd), former Tejas pilot and his opinion of the Gripen C/D variant.

https://www.facebook.com/saabgroup.indi ... 805974583/