Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 08 Feb 2023 14:41

ramana wrote:
Kersi wrote:I understand there is a NOTAM form 8th to 10th February, for some 250 kms, from Abdul Kalam island.
The suspect is Astra Mk II or Astra Mk III
Some more details form our nwo-very-famous paanwalas and chaiwalas.
Suspect or expect?

Ha ha . Maybe a little bit of both !!!!

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 08 Feb 2023 14:42

Nikhil_Naya wrote:Whilst my paanwaalah didn't have information on the 8th-10th NOTAM, he did tell me that NoFear has undergone some more fine tuning. Improved Waypoint navigation in closed loop, actuators have been changed and the MTFE will be powering it. Expecting testing soon...very soon.

?????? Nirbhay ?????

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Feb 2023 15:20

I think so, Nirbhay = No fear.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 Feb 2023 19:07

Surface-to-air missile | DRDO working to fix a few glitches
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 485697.ece
08 Feb 2023

Looks like the Army had asked for some changes to QRSAM based on Sept tests last year (around reliability) and DRDO is working on those. Next test is April. These don't like like changes in specs, so there is some hope that orders will come.

Since the Capex budget has to be spent by March 31, hope the IA uses the opportunity to place orders (even though some improvements are required).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2023 20:13

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/162 ... S5ukcSoURw ---> And here we have @DRDO_India's Supersonic Target (STAR) meant to simulate, well, supersonic cruise missiles. It is powered by a member of the domestically developed liquid-fuel ramjet engine (LFRJ) family.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2023 03:10

Prem Kumar wrote:Surface-to-air missile | DRDO working to fix a few glitches
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 485697.ece
08 Feb 2023

Looks like the Army had asked for some changes to QRSAM based on Sept tests last year (around reliability) and DRDO is working on those. Next test is April. These don't like like changes in specs, so there is some hope that orders will come.

Since the Capex budget has to be spent by March 31, hope the IA uses the opportunity to place orders (even though some improvements are required).

Hope it is not to tweak them against drones!

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 Feb 2023 17:54

Aero India 2023: DRDO plans lightweight MPATGM
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/aero ... ht-mpatgm/
13 Feb 2023

Looks like its back to the drawing board for DRDO's MANPATGM, due to weight issues. It looks like the CLU that is overweight (at 14.25 Kg, compared to 6.4 Kg for Javelin) and not the missile itself (which weighs 14.5 Kgs, compared to 15.9 Kgs for Javelin)

I don't see why a tripod-mounted version for jeeps or even infantry platoons cannot be inducted so that its field-tested, while version 2 gets developed. But knowing the IA, that's too much to ask for.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 14 Feb 2023 18:45

Many years back DRDO had assured the Army that the MPATGM would be ready for service in 2-3 years when it wanted to import Javelin or Spike.

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Feb 2023 20:46

So ... wonder at what point DRDO discovered that a 14 kg launcher would be too heavy to carry ? And at what point army was informed ?

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 14 Feb 2023 21:35

Prem Kumar wrote: Since the Capex budget has to be spent by March 31, hope the IA uses the opportunity to place orders (even though some improvements are required).

Unless MoD babus dont make commissions, they wont order anything. Doesnt matter if capex lapses.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2023 22:59

There must have been design reviews with IA in attendance for the CLU and the missile.

How come this was not noted at that stage?
Obviously there are two different products and ideally would have a composite review once the detailed reviews are over.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Feb 2023 23:01

How much of the weight of the CLU comes from the tripod?

That should be 6 to 7 kgs as well.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Feb 2023 02:36

Prem Kumar wrote:
I don't see why a tripod-mounted version for jeeps or even infantry platoons cannot be inducted so that its field-tested, while version 2 gets developed. But knowing the IA, that's too much to ask for.

And perhaps its to much to ask for some analysis on how an inf platoon would be equipped with a Man portable ATGM when it is anything but.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2023 07:57

NOTAM for Feb 20-22 issued.
https://twitter.com/Mrcool63040811/stat ... -NpQfh_SHA

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 15 Feb 2023 13:44

ramana wrote:NOTAM for Feb 20-22 issued.
https://twitter.com/Mrcool63040811/stat ... -NpQfh_SHA

Why have specified "perimeter" ? Is the missiles going to follow this perimeter ?

Then it could be Nirbhay or Pralay ?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 15 Feb 2023 14:09

Photo of Pralay specs from Aero India by unmentionable blog. Interesting info: Pralay has an MMW seeker for terminal guidance, which makes its CEP less than 10 meters!

A maneuvering missile, achieving such precision with a 500 - 1000 Kg payload, at such ranges, is truly lethal

The seeker has never been mentioned anywhere before

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2023 21:35

Should be Nirbhay. See the jog toward the South.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Feb 2023 18:34

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/aero-in ... riservices

BEL-IAI tie up to build LORA missile. Hope this doesn't threaten the Pralay induction

Specs of LORA are impressive:

Mass: 1.6 tons
Length: 5.2 meters
Warhead: 570 Kgs
Range: 90 - 430 Kms

Pralay:
Mass: 5 tons
Warhead: 500 - 1000 Kgs
Range: 150 - 500 Kms

Granted that Pralay can lob a 1000 Kg warhead to 500 Kms, but the total weight of LORA is mighty impressive. How does it weigh 1.6 tons, with a 500 Kgs warhead that it can shoot out to 430 Kms!

Either they are overstating something (maybe 570Kgs is for a 90 Km range) or we are understating Pralay's range (which we have a track-record of doing). For reference, Pralay's specs are in-line with Dongfeng-12 and Isklander. LORA seems to be an outlier - have the Israelis made any breakthrough in fuel & propulsion tech?

basant · Post by **basant** » 16 Feb 2023 19:12

^^^
From what I could gather, the range of LORA is 300km with 570kg and you can increase fuel fraction at the cost of warhead weight for higher range. Also the terminal velocity will be slower. Experts can give better explanation.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 16 Feb 2023 19:30

Prem Kumar wrote:Either they are overstating something (maybe 570Kgs is for a 90 Km range) or we are understating Pralay's range (which we have a track-record of doing). For reference, Pralay's specs are in-line with Dongfeng-12 and Isklander. LORA seems to be an outlier - have the Israelis made any breakthrough in fuel & propulsion tech?

The SDREs almost always understate specs, Sir.

Pralay, SMART and even the ASAT missile are all derived from Shourya/ Sagarika.. Though Pralay is slightly lighter and smaller, it still has the ability to fly a quasi ballistic trajectory, this while helps evade air defence, takes a toll on the max. range. I suspect the upper limit of 500 km means a 1t warhead + quasi ballistic trajectory.

With a purely ballistic trajectory, it should easily reach 700+ km (conservatively).

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 16 Feb 2023 21:18

basant wrote:^^^
From what I could gather, the range of LORA is 300km with 570kg and you can increase fuel fraction at the cost of warhead weight for higher range. Also the terminal velocity will be slower. Experts can give better explanation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORA_(missile)

Says that the max speed is hypersonic -- must

Something is definitely off.

ATACMS is 1.67 tons with max range of 300km with a 230 kg warhead. (610mm dia, 4 m long)

LORA at 1.6 tons is likely inspired by ATACMS (424mm dia, 5.2m long).

So the claimed range of 300km for LORA is likely with a smaller warhead. (claimed operational range for Lora is 430 km).

Some additional bit about LORA (https://defense-update.com/20060726_lora.html)

The missile can be equipped with a 400 kilogram high explosive warhead or with a 600 kg penetration warhead, to hit hardened targets. The missile can be programmed to hit the target at high angle of attack, of up to 70 degrees, which, together with the high impact speed, maximizes the penetration effect and damage. The missile can perform pre-programmed manoeuvres after launch and after re-entry, to conceal its launch point and intended target, thus preventing the enemy from taking defensive measures or attempting to intercept the missile or launcher.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 16 Feb 2023 21:36

LORA is not needed. We can easily come up with our own equivalent or better. We have options.

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 17 Feb 2023 07:37

cleared post. Hadn't read the whole article. My bad

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 17 Feb 2023 07:57

ernest wrote:I heard LORA being pitched to Indian forces 15 years ago. It did not find any takers then, and it won't now when we have climbed up the missile ladder. Just like Gripen.

BEL announced it is producing it. What do you mean it is not happening? Is BEL getting ahead of orders?

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 17 Feb 2023 08:11

BEL announced it is producing it. What do you mean it is not happening? Is BEL getting ahead of orders?

My bad. I hadn't gone through the article. Just assumed the usual pitch going on. edited my post

Still it is just and MOU. Dont see any mention of actual orders per the release'. LORA just doesn't make sense to license produce when we have our own capability in the same space.
https://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpf ... a464ac.pdf

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Feb 2023 10:14

1) LORA is not yet inducted even into the Israeli Army
2) It was exported to Azerbaijan and seemed to have had a patchy record (didn't take down the bridge that it was supposed to)

I think the specs are brochuritis - typical Israeli media hyperbole. We can learn a lesson or two from them. Understating our capabilities was fine as long as we wanted to supply to only the Indian Armed Forces & wanted to purposely maintain strategic ambiguity of certain programs. But if we want to become a $5B defense export economy, we have to get better at marketing and showing-off!

Israel, while they do make some good products, also passes off below-par stuff to us, for which better local alternatives exist. Example: the lack of satellite uplink capability of IAI Heron (which Tapas will have from Day 1) & the Athos gun

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 17 Feb 2023 15:18

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 976717.cms

Surprising that there has been little mention of these missiles before. Jishnu especially seems to be a very interesting development.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Feb 2023 15:28

MPATGM with <15Kg missile + tube and ~15Kg Command Launch Unit (CLU - which has sights as well) is a good iteration to start production. JAVELIN also falls in this weight class with the difference that since it does not have a tripod stand (hence, unique firing position with missile pilot sitting cross legged), its CLU weighs at under 7kg.

Anything under 30kg combined weight is good to go. Weight reduction in 23-25 kg range can & should happen later.

Therefore, please take the news with a pinch of salt. Because our defense reporters seem to miss out on context and minor but important details.

For example, there is a Short-Range version of Israeli Spike missile. Used by infantry in closed spaces and for special forces. It is absolutely possible that DRDO is now developing a SR version as well.

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 17 Feb 2023 15:40

vonkabra wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 976717.cms

Surprising that there has been little mention of these missiles before. Jishnu especially seems to be a very interesting development.

Jishnu does have contemporaries, Chinese and turkish firms have reportedly armed their drones with "small missiles" , hellfires are in a totally different league

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Feb 2023 19:18

vonkabra wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 976717.cms

Surprising that there has been little mention of these missiles before. Jishnu especially seems to be a very interesting development.

The VL-SRSAM has undergone many tests and has been tracked here. This is not something unknown of. The last test was about six months back.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Feb 2023 20:20

The 2nd missile (semi active laser homing anti-tank) could well be the CLGM (a.k.a SAMHO), which makes its mandatory appearance every Aero India. Yet to see orders though the IA keeps making noise every now & then that it will induct it.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 17 Feb 2023 21:02

rohitvats wrote:MPATGM with <15Kg missile + tube and ~15Kg Command Launch Unit (CLU - which has sights as well) is a good iteration to start production. JAVELIN also falls in this weight class with the difference that since it does not have a tripod stand (hence, unique firing position with missile pilot sitting cross legged), its CLU weighs at under 7kg.

I am no expert -- but to me it looks like that these specs make it in the same class as the KORNET (without the tripod) of which we have 250 launchers.

MPATGM would be good augment/replace?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 18 Feb 2023 12:57

Aero India 2023: Indian Army orders QRSAM weapon systems

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... on-systems

The Indian Army has ordered five Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile (QRSAM) weapon systems, manufacturer Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) told Janes at the Aero India 2023 show in Bangalore.

A BEL official told Janes that the company will deliver all five weapon systems to the Indian Army by 2024. “A QRSAM weapon system comprises one Regiment Command Post Vehicle (RCPV), which acts as the mind of the system,” he said.

“One RCPV is connected with three battery units. A battery unit consists of a Battery Command Post Vehicle (BCPV) and a Battery Surveillance Radar Vehicle (BSRV). Further, one battery unit is connected with four combat groups (CGs),” the official added.

A CG comprises a multifunctional radar unit that can engage with 10 targets and a multilaunch rocket vehicle that equips six QRSAM rockets, the official said. “So, one QRSAM weapon system consists of 72 QRSAM rockets. Apart from all of this, a system also has one logistic vehicle for carrying rockets.”

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Feb 2023 13:52

Fantastic news, if true!

I wonder how Janes is getting these scoops during Aero India, while an order like this goes unreported in the mainstream media?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 18 Feb 2023 18:45

Probably it's false news. Please delete this post.

SJha - Not according to my sources. They say that this is incorrect.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/162 ... sa94g&s=19

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Feb 2023 17:33

ashishvikas wrote:Probably it's false news.

May be it is false, but it is about time. The first flight test was in 2017. Since 2020, several 'successful' tests have taken place. The Defence Acquisition Council had cleared this in December 2021.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 20 Feb 2023 00:34

SSridhar wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Probably it's false news.
May be it is false, but it is about time. The first flight test was in 2017. Since 2020, several 'successful' tests have taken place. The Defence Acquisition Council had cleared this in December 2021.

There was a recent news of some glitches and modifications requested by the forces

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Feb 2023 04:34

Atmavik wrote:There was a recent news of some glitches and modifications requested by the forces

Any link, Atmavik? Tks.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 20 Feb 2023 05:40

SSridhar wrote:
Atmavik wrote:There was a recent news of some glitches and modifications requested by the forces
Any link, Atmavik? Tks.

From the previous pages

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 485697.ece

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Feb 2023 10:01

Thank you, Atmavik. Had missed it.

'Reliability & glitches' is what the IA complains about, the report says. Really startled to read this because the September, 2022 tests were in final user configuration and six tests were conducted, all 'successfully' (as claimed by DRDO) including day/night operation. This missile is a specific one for the Army. Hope DRDO sorts out issues quickly.