Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 18 Jun 2014 11:25

Viv S wrote:
eklavya wrote:GoI (your definition i.e. babu) selected the Rafale. MMRCA is way too important to be left to the IAF alone. Even the Su-30 was chosen by PV Narasimha Rao.
The MoD has only identified Rafale as L1. It is under no obligation to buy it and technically the EF is still in the running. The deal's not cleared the CNC so far, not to mention it still has to do through the MoF and CCS (neither of which are formalities).

The government has spent 3 years negotiating with Dassault because they intend to conclude the contract. Modi and Jaitley will decide one way or another. Its so obvious.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Jun 2014 12:07

eklavya wrote:The government has spent 3 years negotiating with Dassault because they intend to conclude the contract.

That can also be phrased as - the government hasn't been able to conclude the contract despite 3 years of negotiations. Equally true.

Modi and Jaitley will decide one way or another. Its so obvious.

There are indeed two ways to decide it. Sign the contract or scrap the contract.

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Jun 2014 16:51

Karan M wrote:...
Besides which, in many of these "ventures", they will offer all sorts of stuff initially, and at the end of the day, we are left holding the can, as it were, wondering where our money went.

... into the next-Gen Gripen to be sold back to India for more cash

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 19 Jun 2014 03:23

Viv S wrote:
eklavya wrote:The government has spent 3 years negotiating with Dassault because they intend to conclude the contract.
That can also be phrased as - the government hasn't been able to conclude the contract despite 3 years of negotiations. Equally true.

Modi and Jaitley will decide one way or another. Its so obvious.
There are indeed two ways to decide it. Sign the contract or scrap the contract.

There are many influential lobbies that would be delighted if the contract is scrapped, but they are all headed for disappointment. A contract as complex as this one takes time to negotiate; that's all there is to it.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jun 2014 04:19

If the Rafale is unaffordable,so too will be the EF,in the same price range.The only two affordable aircraft left are the Gripen and MIG-29/35.More MIG-29UGs/35s won't hurt the IAF,as the 60+ MIGs are being upgraded extensively,engines already beign made here.Plus the IN will now operate almost 50 29Ks.This however places an undue reliance upon Russia as the FGFA 5th-gen bird is another project in the works.If MIG-29s are acquired,it should be as a cost-effective method for making up numbers in a depleting fleet.

The LCA's long gestation,esp. an unknown timeframe when the definitive Mk-2 will arrive is why the Gripen looks like the dark horse,that will coalesce the need for an MMRCA,plus replacement for MIG-21s.If SAAB can tweak the LCA MK-2 into production at low cost,its part of the deal for a buy of 126+ aircraft,one is sure that the GOI will have a long hard look at it.Unless the French dramatically reduce the price or offer alternative contours of the deal,the GOI struggling with empty coffers to fight inflation,keep food prices down,restructure the tax regime with cuts where possible,keeping up its election promises,will find it very hard to fork out $12B++++ for the Raffy. The MKIs which are going to be upgraded into "Super-Sukhoi" mode,BMos capable will in part have to look after the strike requirement.More may be bought as a result.the IAF should take a long hard look at the SU-34 bomber variant in the Chinese context.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Jun 2014 09:02

eklavya wrote:There are many influential lobbies that would be delighted if the contract is scrapped, but they are all headed for disappointment.

There are far more influential lobbies that will strive to ensure that deal goes, fiscal prudence be damned.

A contract as complex as this one takes time to negotiate; that's all there is to it.

In rupee terms, the price has escalated by over 100% in barely five years. If cost is not a factor, then yes the deal is probably inevitable.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Jun 2014 16:15

SAAB talk apart has no interest in creating a competitor to the Gripen NG. It simply doesn't make sense for them. And why would it.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 20 Jun 2014 01:23

Interesting interview of a rafale test pilot on the Canadian export campaign. Note that he claims (last question) that the Rafale is the only aircraft with the F35 to have a true multi sensor fusion capability (integrated vs federated system architecture). F18SH and Typhoon are also competing.

Then there is a rumor (another one...) about an imminent rafale export for Quatar (72 aircrafts). There are several sources relating this news for quite some time now. Anyway we won't have to hold our breath as apart from previous disappointing experiences the meeting of French president and the Sheik is next monday....

Dassault Said to Close in on Rafale Jet Contract to Lift Exports

Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is poised to win a contract from Qatar for 72 Rafale jets, a French government official said, indicating the jet may have its first export contract before India signs a commitment for 126 units.
A contract would probably come in two batches of 36 aircraft, the official said. The topic will be discussed when Qatar ruler Sheikh Tamim Bin Hamad Al Thani visits France next week, as negotiations continue. The Qatari Ministry of Defense said that nobody was available to comment.[...]
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-0 ... ft-exports

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... 0133322752

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 20 Jun 2014 01:36

The Rafale has virtually Zero chance in Canada. The JSF program has incorporated Canada in from the start and this would equate to work on all JSF's produced for all nations. Potential work that ensures job security of the cutting edge (expensive to maintain) aerospace industry for the next 2-3 decades. The Rafale deal offers an offset at the maximum. Then their is a question of Canada's close proximity to the US armed forces. There is no scenario in which Canada would have to fight a war without the US. Russians are not going to invade canada from the west without saying "hello" to the US. For coalition contribution the Rafale offers interoperability through Link-16. The F-35 brings total interoperability at all levels with NATO that will be operating far greater F-35's than rafales. The Super Hornet may come through as a cheaper more politically motivated choice (Boeing lobbies hard to keep production afloat).

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 20 Jun 2014 02:52

June 17, 2014: Meanwhile in Germany, a Tiger rises

member_28476 · Post by **member_28476** » 20 Jun 2014 05:55

arthuro wrote:Interesting interview of a rafale test pilot on the Canadian export campaign. Note that he claims (last question) that the Rafale is the only aircraft with the F35 to have a true multi sensor fusion capability (integrated vs federated system architecture). F18SH and Typhoon are also competing.

Then there is a rumor (another one...) about an imminent rafale export for Quatar (72 aircrafts). There are several sources relating this news for quite some time now. Anyway we won't have to hold our breath as apart from previous disappointing experiences the meeting of French president and the Sheik is next monday....
Dassault Said to Close in on Rafale Jet Contract to Lift Exports

Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is poised to win a contract from Qatar for 72 Rafale jets, a French government official said, indicating the jet may have its first export contract before India signs a commitment for 126 units.
A contract would probably come in two batches of 36 aircraft, the official said. The topic will be discussed when Qatar ruler Sheikh Tamim Bin Hamad Al Thani visits France next week, as negotiations continue. The Qatari Ministry of Defense said that nobody was available to comment.[...]
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-0 ... ft-exports
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... 0133322752

http://www.45enord.ca/2014/06/rafale-la ... t-refuser/

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2014 06:42

Rafale.

Why would France want to keep it bleeding edge? What would be either the political reason?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 20 Jun 2014 08:58

Why would France want to keep it bleeding edge?

Because its their only fighter going into the future, so they have no option but to keep it bleeding edge. Its going to be much better "taken care of" then the Gripen or the Typhoon (or the Super Hornet, Mig-29/35 and the F-16)

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 20 Jun 2014 10:47

In addition to what Brar mentioned keeping it bleeding edge will ensure that French aerospace skills don't rust away. Otherwise they will get worn down with passage of time.

France has always prided itself as independent weapon making power and would not easily compromise on that.

Rafale would end up for France as either only fighter for few decades to come or only manned fighter for few decades to come. (In case Neuron becomes reality.)

Going for Rafale was a smart decision from GoI.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 20 Jun 2014 11:06

Check out Rafale and Neuron UCAV flying together. They flew together for 1hr and 50 mins covering several kms over Mediterranean.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Jun 2014 21:01

Sumeet wrote:In addition to what Brar mentioned keeping it bleeding edge will ensure that French aerospace skills don't rust away. Otherwise they will get worn down with passage of time.

France has always prided itself as independent weapon making power and would not easily compromise on that.

Unfortunately, France doesn't manufacture on a scale where those products are cost effective (see: F-16 v Mirage 2000). As a result, the Rafale has ended up with a unit program cost of some $225 million (incl VAT).

Sumeet wrote:Rafale would end up for France as either only fighter for few decades to come or only manned fighter for few decades to come. (In case Neuron becomes reality.)

In smart move, UK and France have realized that the only way for them to remain competitive is to collaborate. As a result, the next European UCAV will be a BAE-Dassault venture (rumored to be based on the Taranis IIRC).

Sumeet wrote:Going for Rafale was a smart decision from GoI.

A few years back, Indian orders were expected to add to the existing order book thus lowering costs. After the recent cut in French orders, Indian orders will merely be substituting orders lost by Dassault.

The Indian govt isn't close to pulling the trigger on the deal, but it'll be a terrible decision if it does.

member_28476 · Post by **member_28476** » 21 Jun 2014 03:30

Unfortunately, France doesn't manufacture on a scale where those products are cost effective (see: F-16 v Mirage 2000). As a result, the Rafale has ended up with a unit program cost of some $225 million (incl VAT).

Fancy value...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jun 2014 06:13

My internet travels seem to find that the Rafale itself is not guaranteed to be bleeding edge. However, there are other French MIC efforts that cater to non-French efforts and thus are thriving. But, the Government itself is not a very good source of funds - they will step in for sure, but not in a planned way.

Indian $30 billion will go a long way to keep it fit.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2014 09:19

the brits and french last completed a major joint project together in mid 70s as the jaguar. they will split on UCAV front sooner or later over leadership and workshare issues. UK and germany will go one way and France and Italy the other way as usual.

history is littered with splits over tornado, carrier, next gen ddg, submarine, missiles....each wants to preserve their own design and manufacturing and is willing to pay highly for it. they cant even agree on subsystems like radar - brits funded the brit-only Sampson with gec-marconi and france-italy went with empar perhaps with thales as lead integrator. the dutch funded signaal(now thales) for the APAR I guess with germany also getting their share of the meat. even torpedoes brits run with spearfish, french/italians with blackshark of alenia and germans Dm2a4 of atlas elektronik....

so for vital equipment and even medium eqpt each govt is most willing to fund domestic industry and back them to fullest extent unlike our lutyens munnas.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 21 Jun 2014 11:08

X-post

Philip wrote:Sorry if posted before.
http://www.janes.com/article/38672/indi ... rce=Eloqua

The Indian Navy (IN) is seeking INR160 billion (USD2.66 billion) over the next 2-3 years from the newly-elected Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government to resume construction of the Project 71 indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC).
...

The carrier was launched and named Vikrant in August 2013, with senior Naval Design Bureau (NDB) sources saying that 75% of the carrier's structure was complete. However, work on the carrier has virtually come to a standstill in recent months due to a resource crunch. This includes modular construction work and the installation of radar, sensors, and weapon systems.

Senior officials said the new CCS would require clearances from the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the federal Finance Ministry to approve the funds. The CCS of the outgoing Congress Party-led federal coalition had secured both of these approvals earlier in 2014 but failed to implement them - resulting in the near-suspension of work.

IN officials also warned that further delays in sanctioning additional funding for the IAC could delay its commissioning beyond its already extended 2017-18 deadline.

So the construction work on the IAC comes to a virtual standstill due to the fund crunch, but some how we can afford super expensive Rafales, Apaches etc

.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jun 2014 13:34

Pagot wrote:
Unfortunately, France doesn't manufacture on a scale where those products are cost effective (see: F-16 v Mirage 2000). As a result, the Rafale has ended up with a unit program cost of some $225 million (incl VAT).
Fancy value...

Program cost: €46 billion or $62.5 billion
Build order: 286 units

Program unit cost - $220 million

It'll be significantly higher now since the orders have been reduced from 286 to 225.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jun 2014 14:00

Singha wrote:the brits and french last completed a major joint project together in mid 70s as the jaguar. they will split on UCAV front sooner or later over leadership and workshare issues. UK and germany will go one way and France and Italy the other way as usual.

Storm Shadow, Meteor, A-400M. Also now working on the Perseus ASM and .

Germany is done with defence. Unlike UK and France, it has no 'Great Power' ambitions, its existing military capability is gradually being scaled back (actually it nearly killed off the Eurofighter program in the 90s) and neither UK nor France see much potential a German collaboration.

In any case, the ground work for greater France-British cooperation has already been laid and the Hollande govt seems as committed as Sarkozy's. They're already working together on engine technologies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2014 16:22

how many A400M is the RAF buying? I was unaware they are moving out of C130.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Jun 2014 16:37

The will be operating both the C-130 and the A-400. They have purchased around 2 dozen J variant C130's with the first being delivered in 2000. The A-400M Will begin to replace the older C-130s and there should be an equal number of C-130J's and A400M's in the RAF for quite a long time. Long term plans probably call for the A400 to eventually replace the Jercules and even some C17's and the Speed Agile to eventually replace the A400 and C-17's if it is developed.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 21 Jun 2014 19:14

NRao wrote:Rafale.

Why would France want to keep it bleeding edge? What would be either the political reason?

Rafale.

Why did France even created it? What was the........ ???

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 22 Jun 2014 01:50

^^ self sufficiency my friend don't rely on any damn person on earth for anything. French learned this hard facts in WW-II.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 22 Jun 2014 13:01

Rant deleted. Since you've been already warned for an earlier infraction, I'll let this pass. But please stick to discussion at hand and use apply some logic - rohitvats.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 22 Jun 2014 13:10

ashish raval wrote:^^ self sufficiency my friend don't rely on any damn person on earth for anything. French learned this hard facts in WW-II.

+1

How true.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 22 Jun 2014 19:15

Building toilets is not responsibility of government. It is individual or head of family responsibility who should know the health benefits it brings to his family tree in the future. Government's first and main responsibility is to provide safe country in which public can sleep well everyday without bombings. Tell me one country where government has built toilets for people over fighter jet deal which can keep country safe. Do you want India to be a nanny state ? If you compare things with other countries then you should compare that at every level. For e.g. if you want roads like Germany then you should compare weather people of India follow rules like Germans or pay taxes ? If not then don't expect. Likewise if people in India don't bother to flush the toilet and keep it clean within community if it is provided then don't expect government to build one. With facilities comes individual responsibilities too. Everything should be viewed in its entirety and not discreetly.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Jun 2014 19:53

It will be very interesting to see what Modi sarkar does with the MMRCA. It has already signaled 100% FDI, is very supportive of private initiative and "minimum goverment" and is super nationalist and hawkish all at the same time. Something good is going to come out of this mess.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 22 Jun 2014 22:15

As far as I understand, the $20B is not a one time payment but over the next 20 years or so. Moreover the offsets will reduce this outgo over the timeline of this project. Not to mention getting a modern top-line fighter from a diversified and reliable source. Plus, the linkages between India and France get strengthened and other possible payoffs in terms of foreign affairs, etc.

Therefore it appears affordable, if there are no further hidden costs.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2014 00:23

Promoting 'swadeshi' in defence

Some numbers:

An example of this is the defence ministry's key procurement dilemma: that is, whether to sign the controversial Rs 1-lakh-crore contract for 126 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The new government would relish the glitzy spectacle of a Rafale-signing ceremony. That would please the public and placate the IAF, but it would also require allocating Rs 15,000 crore as the signing advance; and commit the IAF to annual instalments of some Rs 10,000 crore, payable yearly till 2023-24.

$2.496463 billion @ signing, and
$1.664309 billion each year from 2015(?) through 2023 (of, what, $45 billion def budget?)

So, approx $18-19 billion?

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 24 Jun 2014 00:28

It seems the rafale won another technical evaluation :

The first choice of the Qatari Air force

[...]Technically, in any case, the die is cast. After three phases of very advanced testing , the Qatari Air Force assured the French camp that the Rafale was clearly the first choice, say 2 sources close to the negotiations. "The chosen version would be very close to the latest standard of the aircraft, the F3R version, with active antenna radar [with increased range and reliability, Ed]," says a close source. The Eurofighter Typhoon? Qatar prefers the french aircraft, which is more complete. The emirate also seems reluctant to acquire the same aircrafts than its rival Saudi Arabia, which has Typhoon and F-15. The F-35 ? For quite obscure reasons, the United States has not responded to the tender issued by the emirate last August.

The Rafale appears as the clear favorite. "Combat proven" in Afghanistan, Libya and Mali, it also benefits from the good military relations between France and Qatar: their fleet consists of 12 Mirage 2000-5. Operation Harmattan over Libya in 2011 saw multiple joint patrols of French and Qatari aircrafts, both air forces have a long tradition of collaboration. The Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian has also created an excellent context of negotiations with the Qatari authorities, multiplying travel to Doha since the beginning of the year. Should we therefore expect an announcement this evening? "Frankly, I do not believe it," says one industrialist, a bit superstitious. Before completing a grinning: "... but I could be wrong, eh."[...]

Indeed, prudence should be exercised. First, a possible announcement would not relate to a definitive agreement, but rather an entry into exclusive negotiations with the "team Rafale" (Dassault, Thales, Safran). [...] Another reason for being cautious is that the Sheikh is determined to not allow anyone to dictate the schedule. [...]. And his visit to the United Kingdom, which fiercely defends the Eurofighter, just after France, is clearly not the ideal agenda for a Rafale announcement this evening. An announcement of the Emir on the French aircraft would have more weight.

http://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/201 ... -soir.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2014 00:29

NRao wrote:Promoting 'swadeshi' in defence

Man!!

Take a look:

The one positive from having Arun Jaitley run the ministry of defence in addition to his time-consuming job as finance minister is that, like Pranab Mukherjee, he will be better equipped to evaluate defence expenditure proposals that come up to the finance ministry. On the flip side, his current preoccupation with the finance ministry would leave him little time to scrutinise the fundamentals - whether the military is manned, equipped and run effectively, why weaponry is imported, and what policies could promote indigenous defence production. It would be tragic if Mr Jaitley concludes that boosting overseas arms procurement is the way to strengthen the military. It can be safely assumed that, despite the tight fiscal situation, the Bharatiya Janata Party's optics will trigger a moderate rise in the capital budget. What remains to be seen is whether Mr Jaitley directs most of that money to the international arms bazaar or to shoring up India's defence production capability.

An example of this is the defence ministry's key procurement dilemma: that is, whether to sign the controversial Rs 1-lakh-crore contract for 126 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The new government would relish the glitzy spectacle of a Rafale-signing ceremony. That would please the public and placate the IAF, but it would also require allocating Rs 15,000 crore as the signing advance; and commit the IAF to annual instalments of some Rs 10,000 crore, payable yearly till 2023-24.

Yet a searching examination by Mr Jaitley would have discovered that a fraction of that expenditure - spent on improving the serviceability rate of the Sukhoi-30 MKI - could generate equivalent combat power. By 2019, the IAF will have 272 Sukhoi-30 MKIs; yet poor maintenance and inefficient spares management ensure that just 40 per cent of these fighters are combat-ready at any given time. Effectively, the IAF has just 109 combat-ready Sukhoi-30 MKIs; 272 is an illusory number. Raising serviceability to 75 per cent, which is up to par for any self-respecting air force, would add 95 fighters to the numbers operationally available. That is precisely the number of Rafales that would be operationally available from a 126-fighter fleet, given a 75 per cent serviceability rate.

This mind-boggling truth needs reiteration, since the IAF and the defence ministry gloss over it - spending Rs 5,000 crore to boost Sukhoi-30 MKI serviceability would "buy" as many additional fighters as the purchase of 126 Rafales for Rs 1 lakh crore. The IAF lament of "dwindling squadron numbers" is a red herring; more important is the number of fighters available in each squadron.

Further, abandoning the Rafale would save money for a light fighter fleet and also build an indigenous aerospace industry. The IAF's obsolescent MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleets could be replaced economically with an improved (or Mark II) version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft; its development and manufacture accelerated through a strategic alliance with Swedish company Saab, which is close to completing the Gripen E - a fighter very much like what the IAF wants the Tejas Mark II to be. With the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) co-operating with Saab, a world-class Tejas Mark II would start joining the IAF fleet by 2019 (assuming five years for development and testing); and a second aircraft manufacturing line would be established in India, complete with an airfield, to complement the Hindustan Aeronautics' facilities at Bangalore. Further, a project like this would catalyse an entire aeronautical design and manufacturing ecosystem, especially the small and medium firms that wither away when the government buys overseas rather than innovating and producing domestically. Alongside this, aerospace engineering courses could be sponsored in selected technological institutes, which would feed into the indigenous design and manufacture of an advanced medium combat aircraft, a project already under way. Finally, with the change left over from the Rs 1 lakh crore, New Delhi could press Stockholm hard to buy out Saab's aerospace division. The Swedish government might resist, but its decision would eventually be driven by how much it wants a strategic alliance with an emerging superpower like India.

The army faces similar dilemmas, with expensive overseas buys counterposed against indigenous alternatives - whether to buy more Russian T-90 tanks or expedite the DRDO's Future Main Battle Tank project, which has languished for years; whether to buy more Russian armoured carriers or fast-track the Future Infantry Combat Vehicle, which India's defence industry is to develop. For critically needed artillery guns, the dilemma is whether to approach the international arms bazaar or sponsor industry-led consortia to develop the guns in India, while confining overseas purchases to high-tech purchases, such as the ultralight howitzer, that require materials and engineering technologies currently out of our reach. In each case, the defence ministry faces temptation to seal a quick overseas deal. At the same time, it also has the opportunity to build genuine, long-term defence capability through an indigenous product that slashes life-cycle costs to obtain "bang for the buck".

The policy framework for going swadeshi already exists. Ironically, it was created by the defence ministry under A K Antony, which then lacked the political courage to implement its own policies. The Defence Procurement Procedure of 2013 explicitly states that indigenous development and manufacture is the default option. There is a Defence Production Policy to encourage manufacture. More policy initiatives are needed - especially in reducing duties and tariffs for the domestic industry that, incredibly, pays higher taxes for building weaponry in India than foreign vendors pay for importing it fully built. The domestic industry must be protected against variation in foreign exchange rates; export of defence equipment must be not just permitted, but actively encouraged; and foreign direct investment in defence must be automatically allowed up to 49 per cent

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 24 Jun 2014 03:17

Agree on above article about Rafale but fact is buying local, less variety in weapon kit to improve reliability is the only way to ensure high availability.

Why the late pitch for SAAB is beyond my comprehension!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2014 03:45

It would have been nice if the Rafale cost less. France is actually conducting a lot of non-Rafale related research and it would be nice to keep in touch with them.

But nothing like to depend on self.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Jun 2014 05:13

I really doubt that at this point in time after all that has happened under MRCA acquisition banner that Rafale deal will be cancelled. India's defense budget won't remain 45 billion for next 10 years.

Because if it does either we are fools & haven't understood from our history that it's not just economy but equally powerful, effective & well equipped military that is needed for long term prosperity and well being of country or country's economy is in doldrum. If we can get back to 8-9 percent growth (which we can) most likely we will seeing budget increasing. And I am not even counting in money inflow that getting back at least 25% of 1.5 trillion dollars of black money stashed abroad would generate. A significant chunk of that can be routed towards our defense budget.

We should be spending at a minimum 3.5% of our GDP preferably 4% on defense.

That being said I would like to see Rafale & PAK-FA/FGFA to be last purchase of product of foreign origin in Airforce. Increasingly, a significant chunk of budget should be allocated for defense R&D.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 24 Jun 2014 05:37

ashish raval wrote:Building toilets is not responsibility of government.

Building sewage systems and enforcing building codes for septic systems is a governmental responsibility.

India has not been a 'nanny' state. It has been a stepmother state. No governance. Monies in the rest of the world spent on basics, have been squandered on lifestyles of elected officials. The mice have seen little benefit.

You can't build a toilet by yourself. It takes a village, a nation.

Just think about it. Where does it go?

The Rafales may have made sense once. No more at $18bn + and climbing.

There is just no money for a MMRCA that was to cost INR of 40 versus now (60) five years later.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2014 07:37

Along with the purchase of the Rafale, France, should guarantee an Indian World Cup football team in the next 8 years. Penalty clause: Else they supply a squadron free of cost for each World Cup missed.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 24 Jun 2014 07:52

NRao wrote: Along with the purchase of the Rafale, France, should guarantee an Indian World Cup football team in the next 8 years. Penalty clause: Else they supply a squadron free of cost for each World Cup missed

+10000