Managing Chinese Threat

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 26 Dec 2013 15:15

^^^^
You seriously need to get your history straightened out.

The more I see it the more it seems that failure of Chinese to defeat a nation whom they considered beneath them for over 15 years has led to the current animosity. After all Chinese preceived their country as the middle kingdom the fountain of all thats nice and civilized. And here was a country, a fraction of Chinese size humiliating them. Chinese had guns and more men than the Imperial Nipponese, to fight the Imperial Nipponese. And yet were unable to drive the Imperial Nipponese away. What happened was reverse, the IJA's reach only increased every year till 1944 and only stopped when the Soviets threw them out of Manchuria.
It was the soviets which were the first to cleanse a part of territory of China, i.e. Manchuria, from the Imperial Nipponese. Not PLA Not the Nationalist. Then the rest of the China was given independence not because of the futile efforts of Nationalist or PLA but because the Nipponese surrendered to the Yanks. Not to the CPC or Nationalist but to the yanks. China's independence was handed to her by the westerner on a platter. That is what seems to rankle the Chinese. But it is okie, one can look at failure and recognize it.

The Japanese Chapter ended in 1945. Get over it. It was not the worst thing that happened to PRC. Worst was to come after that. Your selective quotation from history while ignoring the rest does not win you any friends over here rather it serves as an object of derision.

The way Chinese treats Japans reflects badly on China, because it shows how vindictive and petty China actually is. The more the world sees the more it believes that with neighbours like North Korea and PRC, Japan has to become a normal nation and ditch its pacifism in the East China Sea.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 26 Dec 2013 15:18

^^^^
And let us not forget Indians fought the British Imperialist on their own, they did not have the hump supply line or the Americans flying their planes nor were they supplied and guns from anybody. We truly fought on our own and got independence. Unlike the Chinese which had such a massive support from the westerners but still failed to evict the Imperial Nipponese.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 26 Dec 2013 15:26

Indians are born in a country that only arose after 500 years of subjugation because their former masters were over-extended and allowed India to happen. India was promised to happen by Great Britain, it wasn't fought for by Indians.

There are quite a few here who believe in great grand conspiracies and betrayals and British "victory" in '47 but they can perhaps explain their stance better. FWIW I for one think the notion is Truther-ish.... or motivated by political leanings

. There is quite a convergence with the views of Indian commies/ChiComs/Faux Revolutionaries except for minor differences in the details. Anyway, everyone can ride his/her favorite pony.

Indians don't understand the humiliation of being subjugated because being subjugated is the norm and not the exception. .... When I spoke of humiliation, someone acts as if a nerve's touched, but that's really the norm. The subjugation by the Japanese is openly referred to as a national shame in China. Humiliation is to be remembered, embraced, and paid back over there, whereas humiliation is par for the course in India so if someone mentions humiliation, it must be really, reaaaaaaaly bad in a nerve-touching sort of way. All these years of subjugation have changed the Indian psyche, to one that justifies, rationalizes, and even philosophizes foreign subjugation and atrocities. It's clear that we have different standards rooted deeply in our differing histories for what foreigners can do to our homeland, and further debate over this issue is likely useless.

It is indeed difficult to match up the standards of China which has an unbroken history of genocidal tyrannical empires followed by genocidal rebellions followed by genocidal King-of-the-Hill civil wars..... aaand rinse-and-repeat. Confrontational-ism and violence-virulence-victimhood is indeed the norm; within the state and without. Nothing happens without a good rebellion or a fight or a civil war, eh? This kind of chest-thumping POV is precisely why China is dangerous for the rest of the world.... and makes you look like the long-lost cousins of the Jehadis whining over Reconquista etc etc.
BTW, notwithstanding your rank falsehood of "Chinese forgives Chinese", the brinkmanship/culture of confrontation is a largely manufactured sentiment of the new Chinese Tyrant in Beijing. The people do remember very well who killed them off in the tens of thousands - just because they were Chinese they wouldn't be "forgiven". They might be forced to move on with their lives but they do know! Hey, after all, what prompted all that thought and theories in the civil wars and the intercine warfare? If it was all love and phorgiveness of their own, you won't see the kind of anger against the regimes, the ambitions of gas-bags and the politics. And you wouldn't see the bottled up rage erupt without fail after the last "strong" tyrant chokes on his aphrodisiac or is offed by an eunuch.

But now there's mass media and education to aid the new tyrant... the predecessors didn't have this! Game changer this one! This new ChiComm irredentist "theory" is a rehash of Fitche-esque Nationalism with a Maoist overcoat; and if this manufactured psycho-existential complex is indeed the cornerstone of national policy (as against a convenient mask to don at appropriate time.... an explanation which I still give a benefit of doubt), then good luck.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 26 Dec 2013 15:47

Take the entire population of Japan. Now identify those who had taken part in the so-called rape of nanking or any other atrocity in China. Let us assume that there are 1 million such people who are still alive as of day. So the other 100 million plus people are being accused of a crime which these 1 million people did. This is like a crime is done by a single villager but the whole village has to be held responsible for the actions of the single villager. This is what the Chinese are asking us to do. This is at the end of the day the essence of the matter.

And oh this is not the end of it, nah. Focus of this villager only. And ignore all the crimes that one has done. All the starvations all the forced abortions all the tanks trampling over unarmed protesters. No that never happened. That is not history. No no that is the Chinese Iron, Blood and Sweat. It appears one forget murder too.

Why is it that I am not the only person who finds this concept unpalatable? And all of this is sought to be sold as history. I have seen better crap being dished around

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 26 Dec 2013 18:51

Over looked in the Chinese stiring of nationalist hatred is that the Japanese civilians paid for the war crimes. By the hundreds of thousands in fact. The US unleashed a military thug by the name of Curtis LeMay upon them. And thousands and thousands of civilans died for their country's war crimes. The fire bombing of Tokyo alone claimed a hundred thousand which could be a low count. Wiki says:

The Operation Meetinghouse air raid of 9–10 March 1945 was later estimated to be the single most destructive bombing raid in history.[2]

But we didn't stop there. We just kept bombing other cities. By the time we hanged their prime minister Hideki Tojo nicknamed the "Razor" in 1948 it was an after thought.

So this whole deal of China going psycho over slights from current day Japan is just sh*t stiring by the Chinese in order to unite them under the current government, the communist party of China. The rest of the world knows this except for the Chinese.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Dec 2013 19:09

The nationalistic feeling against the Japanese started only in Deng Xiaoping's reign. There was not even a murmur until then.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 26 Dec 2013 19:30

SSridhar wrote:The nationalistic feeling against the Japanese started only in Deng Xiaoping's reign. There was not even a murmur until then.

They were too busy killing each other in political purges and putting on street theater shows with the Red Guard brigades.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 26 Dec 2013 19:48

China marks Mao Zedong's 120th birthday anniversary
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-25518017

China condemns Japan PM Shinzo Abe's Yasukuni shrine visit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25518166

says it all.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 26 Dec 2013 20:02

DavidD wrote:
Suraj wrote:I didn't say a shrine to Hitler, I said a shrine that worships Hitler, like how Yasukuni worships 14 class-A war criminals alongside who cares how many others. So how do you think the world would react if the German chancellor visiting a shrine that worships Hitler and other German war dead?

Actually you should read Dr.Pal's dissenting statement at the Tokyo War Crimes Trial (where he was the Indian representative judge) if you want a better handle on an Indian viewpoint about the whole matter. He wrote in his judgement that the trial was flawed because it served as a platform of victors justice. Interestingly, his judgement was banned from publication in the US and UK. It's an interesting lesson for China, because that trial also defined whom you could blame and whom you could not, regardless of who screwed you, which they all did.

The same people sitting in judgement of the Japanese had a lot of blood on their hands; from India's perspective, the British, particularly the 3m they killed in Bengal in 1942-43. Dr.Pal didn't deny the existence of war criminals; he just stated that there were criminals on both sides of the conflict, so it was pointless for the victor to sit and judge the vanquished as if the latter was particularly worse.

It also ties in with why you don't rail at the British, French or Americans, as I asked. The reason why is that you accepted the result of the trials conducted by the Americans - who actually bombed the Japanese into submission - and you had no power to seek compensation for the acts they committed against China in the years preceding WW2. In effect 'everyone is piling on the Japanese now that they've been defeated. Let me also scream for my share!' China itself was in no position to seek anything from Japan even in the late 1940s when they were on their knees under MacArthur's rule. The killing didn't stop in China in 1945 - there was no government for another 4 years.

China isn't being moral when it demands compensation from Japan - it's being expedient, because the same countries who ended up also fighting Japan in WW2 for different reasons had themselves been plundering China previously. But you won't get any traction if you ever start the same loud tirade conducted against Japan, against UK, France or US. That's what Dr.Pal wrote about - why ask for compensation from one side ? The US and UK weren't doing China a favor - they were just getting their revenge, and China was a convenient 'oh look these Japanese killed all those Chinese' additional reason.

That's why the Japanese have a memorial to Dr.Pal in the same shrine; they aren't oblivious that among the spirits there were men who did bad things there. Their shrine just doesn't make a distinction on the basis of crime - it's a site for everyone who fought in the IJA over 80 years. Dr.Pal's memorial and the plaque in front describes the ambiguity of judging one set of parties distinctly from another solely on the basis of a defeat in war.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 26 Dec 2013 20:11

If you look at pacifism as practiced by Japanese, then Japanese stand is uniform for quite a while- which is commendable clearly for uniform resistance against even the most violent and also for very well support or aid to population who suffer. Comparatively, others are plain pushing rubbish as what suits them.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Dec 2013 05:42

Suraj wrote: Actually you should read Dr.Pal's dissenting statement at the Tokyo War Crimes Trial (where he was the Indian representative judge) if you want a better handle on an Indian viewpoint about the whole matter. He wrote in his judgement that the trial was flawed because it served as a platform of victors justice. Interestingly, his judgement was banned from publication in the US and UK. It's an interesting lesson for China, because that trial also defined whom you could blame and whom you could not, regardless of who screwed you, which they all did.

The same people sitting in judgement of the Japanese had a lot of blood on their hands; from India's perspective, the British, particularly the 3m they killed in Bengal in 1942-43. Dr.Pal didn't deny the existence of war criminals; he just stated that there were criminals on both sides of the conflict, so it was pointless for the victor to sit and judge the vanquished as if the latter was particularly worse.

It also ties in with why you don't rail at the British, French or Americans, as I asked. The reason why is that you accepted the result of the trials conducted by the Americans - who actually bombed the Japanese into submission - and you had no power to seek compensation for the acts they committed against China in the years preceding WW2. In effect 'everyone is piling on the Japanese now that they've been defeated. Let me also scream for my share!' China itself was in no position to seek anything from Japan even in the late 1940s when they were on their knees under MacArthur's rule. The killing didn't stop in China in 1945 - there was no government for another 4 years.

China isn't being moral when it demands compensation from Japan - it's being expedient, because the same countries who ended up also fighting Japan in WW2 for different reasons had themselves been plundering China previously. But you won't get any traction if you ever start the same loud tirade conducted against Japan, against UK, France or US. That's what Dr.Pal wrote about - why ask for compensation from one side ? The US and UK weren't doing China a favor - they were just getting their revenge, and China was a convenient 'oh look these Japanese killed all those Chinese' additional reason.

That's why the Japanese have a memorial to Dr.Pal in the same shrine; they aren't oblivious that among the spirits there were men who did bad things there. Their shrine just doesn't make a distinction on the basis of crime - it's a site for everyone who fought in the IJA over 80 years. Dr.Pal's memorial and the plaque in front describes the ambiguity of judging one set of parties distinctly from another solely on the basis of a defeat in war.

You're avoiding the question, how do you think the world would react if the German chancellor visiting a shrine that worships Hitler and other German war dead?

I'm not questioning your logic, I'm not questioning Dr. Pal's teachings either. It sounds like Dr. Pal is an admirable man, and his teaching are undoubtedly correct. Atrocities are committed by all nations, all ethnicities, all humans, if not in WWII then some time throughout history. It's no more moral to kill with policies (e.g. some of Mao's disastrous domestic policies) or nuclear weapons than with bullets and bayonets. Hitler could not have enacted his policies without centuries of rampant antisemitism in Europe championed by none other than the Catholic church.

Perhaps you think I'm justifying Chinese hatred for the Japanese, I am not. I am merely explaining the rationale behind the hatred, and as we digress, also the necessity of it. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, a very wise Indian man once said. Unfortunately, the world is not so wise, and a philosophy of recognizing the evil within all men and thus the necessity of universal forgiveness is as much of a pie in the sky in the realm of philosophy as communism is in the realm of economy--it's simply against human nature. We humans thrive on competition, it's a vestige of natural selection and the process of evolution. Competition makes an economy churn, sharing makes everyone lazy, and that's why capitalism triumphs over communism. Similarly, a strong sense of self vs. them, the ability to take tremendous umbrage at assaults of other nations vs. what your own people do to yourselves, makes a nation stronger. It'll lead to bloodshed, but it'll also lead to progress. Evolution dictates survival of only the fittest, after all.

That same wise Indian man made India too wise, and as a consequent it forgot how to fight for what you want. China would not have let 3 million dead at the hands of foreigners be forgotten, and would've prepared itself for revenge as soon as it could. India didn't lose in 1962 because it wasn't capable, as I'm sure you are all too well aware, it lost because it wasn't prepared to fight while the opponent was. Modi will be a good leader for you guys, he's taught the Indians to forgive his methods because he can make sure Indians won't fall to similar tragedies incurred by outsiders. Under him, India will perhaps finally make the transition from a group of weak, philosophizing men to those who are willing to pay with sweat and blood for the good of India.

As for China, the British, French, Americans, Russians, etc. can wait. I asked you the question about Myanmar for a reason, and it's the necessity to prioritize. Japan committed the most sins against China and they'll pay first, but don't think the Chinese have forgotten about the others. They, Japan included, do not need to pay in blood and preferably should not pay in blood, but China will do its best to make them pay one way or another. This isn't because the British, etc. are evil, I'm sure if the positions are switched the Chinese would've done the same (they've almost certainly already done similar things through its history), but simply a necessity to strengthen oneself vs. them. Once this motivation has allowed one to strengthen oneself, the actual "payback" becomes pretty much irrelevant as this desire for revenge has already done its job.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 Dec 2013 07:55

DavidD wrote:You're avoiding the question, how do you think the world would react if the German chancellor visiting a shrine that worships Hitler and other German war dead?

You're misrepresenting what that shrine is; portraying it in the manner of claiming that any US president placing a wreath at Arlington National Cemetery is celebrating the killing of Native Americans and assorted other nasty acts on their part, including their participation in the Boxer Rebellion, which involved a lot of Chinese casualties on their hands. Cut and paste German president for a corresponding German memorial or cemetery.

It may be a really sensitive matter to China, but not to the rest of the world. While the British celebrate Churchill, we see him as a mass murderer. Chinese probably have no great opinion either way. It's all a matter of perspective. China has an issue with Yasukuni Jinja simply because among all the soldiers commemorated there are those convicted as war criminals.

From an Indian perspective, as Dr.Pal's dissenting judgement shows, we don't really see their convictions as legally valid in the first place, because one group of criminals (Churchill and Bombs Away LeMay being examples) were judging other criminals. You'd be hard pressed to convince us it's such a terrible thing, when a guy who killed 20-50 million Chinese has a mausoleum in central Beijing to him, complete with a formaldehyde infused version of what's left of him.

If you choose that one colonizers is more expedient to harangue today than others, that is your priority. I think Christopher Sidor and Anand_K make some really interesting points. There's a significant background story behind China's angst with Japan that has very little to do with 14 guys at Yasukuni. But that is your problem, despite repeatedly invoking Godwin's Law.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 27 Dec 2013 09:54

DavidD wrote:
Suraj wrote: Actually you should read Dr.Pal's dissenting statement at the Tokyo War Crimes Trial (where he was the Indian representative judge) if you want a better handle on an Indian viewpoint about the whole matter. He wrote in his judgement that the trial was flawed because it served as a platform of victors justice. Interestingly, his judgement was banned from publication in the US and UK. It's an interesting lesson for China, because that trial also defined whom you could blame and whom you could not, regardless of who screwed you, which they all did.

The same people sitting in judgement of the Japanese had a lot of blood on their hands; from India's perspective, the British, particularly the 3m they killed in Bengal in 1942-43. Dr.Pal didn't deny the existence of war criminals; he just stated that there were criminals on both sides of the conflict, so it was pointless for the victor to sit and judge the vanquished as if the latter was particularly worse.

It also ties in with why you don't rail at the British, French or Americans, as I asked. The reason why is that you accepted the result of the trials conducted by the Americans - who actually bombed the Japanese into submission - and you had no power to seek compensation for the acts they committed against China in the years preceding WW2. In effect 'everyone is piling on the Japanese now that they've been defeated. Let me also scream for my share!' China itself was in no position to seek anything from Japan even in the late 1940s when they were on their knees under MacArthur's rule. The killing didn't stop in China in 1945 - there was no government for another 4 years.

China isn't being moral when it demands compensation from Japan - it's being expedient, because the same countries who ended up also fighting Japan in WW2 for different reasons had themselves been plundering China previously. But you won't get any traction if you ever start the same loud tirade conducted against Japan, against UK, France or US. That's what Dr.Pal wrote about - why ask for compensation from one side ? The US and UK weren't doing China a favor - they were just getting their revenge, and China was a convenient 'oh look these Japanese killed all those Chinese' additional reason.

That's why the Japanese have a memorial to Dr.Pal in the same shrine; they aren't oblivious that among the spirits there were men who did bad things there. Their shrine just doesn't make a distinction on the basis of crime - it's a site for everyone who fought in the IJA over 80 years. Dr.Pal's memorial and the plaque in front describes the ambiguity of judging one set of parties distinctly from another solely on the basis of a defeat in war.
You're avoiding the question, how do you think the world would react if the German chancellor visiting a shrine that worships Hitler and other German war dead?

The Japanese are not worshiping Hitler or his ilk. They are paying respect to their dead, people who have died for Japan, no matter how misguided they may have been. They are not paying respect to the ideology of Imperial Japan or seeking to emulate it or trying to repeat what they did in 1931-45.

DavidD wrote: That same wise Indian man made India too wise, and as a consequent it forgot how to fight for what you want. China would not have let 3 million dead at the hands of foreigners be forgotten, and would've prepared itself for revenge as soon as it could. India didn't lose in 1962 because it wasn't capable, as I'm sure you are all too well aware, it lost because it wasn't prepared to fight while the opponent was. Modi will be a good leader for you guys, he's taught the Indians to forgive his methods because he can make sure Indians won't fall to similar tragedies incurred by outsiders. Under him, India will perhaps finally make the transition from a group of weak, philosophizing men to those who are willing to pay with sweat and blood for the good of India.

Let us be clear not all of Indians, including significant Hindus are enamoured to Modi and his style. His governance and deliver is impeccable, this is coming from somebody who has lived under his rule. But what we would prefer to actually have is a ruler whose hands are not littered in blood. We already allowed a person with blood on his hands to rule this country from 1984-89. I look bleakly at the prospect of this getting repeated. This is not the India that we want.

DavidD wrote:Japan committed the most sins against China and they'll pay first, but don't think the Chinese have forgotten about the others. They, Japan included, do not need to pay in blood and preferably should not pay in blood, but China will do its best to make them pay one way or another. This isn't because the British, etc. are evil, I'm sure if the positions are switched the Chinese would've done the same (they've almost certainly already done similar things through its history), but simply a necessity to strengthen oneself vs. them. Once this motivation has allowed one to strengthen oneself, the actual "payback" becomes pretty much irrelevant as this desire for revenge has already done its job.

The Japan you refer got burnt and destroyed in the nuclear holocaust of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That Japan does not exist anymore. It is only kept alive in the pages of history. The contemporary Japan and Japanese have no role whatsoever with what happened in 1931-45. It like children paying for what their fathers and grand fathers did. That is not the right thing to do.

Japanese atrocity between 1931-45, its racism and sheer monstrosity is not to be defended. We do not belittle the horrors that were carried by the Japanese on China or Korea or any other part of East Asia. It was not to be done. But it was no different than what the Britishers, Americans, Frenchmen and other Asian nations did prior to 1945. Or what certain other nations are still doing after 1945.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 27 Dec 2013 10:07

I am sorry but for Chinese to take umbrage at the Yakasuni observations would be significantly more meaningful if they did the same with their own record in Tibet or eastern Turkestan or for that matter if they expressed remorse at the tens of millions of Chinese killed by other Chinese.

Chinese mortification is a bit rich.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 27 Dec 2013 10:23

Nobody disparages what the East Asians had gone through in the period 1931-45. What happened then does not justify what is happening today. None of the countries who have criticized Japan recently have a constitution which forbids war. In fact just the opposite they actually have official policies which glorify it.

None of the citizens in East Asia which underwent the horrors of Imperial Japan have turned and asked their countries to banish war from their mindsets. Japanese after 1945 have.

Japan has given massive aid to East Asia, China in particular after 1945. It did not have to, but it did. And the East Asians have not acknowledged that or appreciated it either.

None of the Citizens in East Asia were nuked in 1931-45, which according to me was totally unnecessary. The Children and Grand-children of those nuke victims will carry the scar for generations more. None of the East Asians have to undergo this generational punishment. If a woman is forced to become a comfort-woman she gets scarred. Her scarring affects her children and those around her. But it generally does not scar her grand children and definitely does not scar her great-grand-children. Compare this to what Japanese of Hiroshima or Nagasaki. They will pay for it for 5 generations or more.

Yet we find this odd fixation on how horrid Japan is and it has not done enough or not suffered enough. There is no objectivity at work at all. Only one sided irrationality.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Dec 2013 12:51

Suraj wrote:
DavidD wrote:You're avoiding the question, how do you think the world would react if the German chancellor visiting a shrine that worships Hitler and other German war dead?
You're misrepresenting what that shrine is; portraying it in the manner of claiming that any US president placing a wreath at Arlington National Cemetery is celebrating the killing of Native Americans and assorted other nasty acts on their part, including their participation in the Boxer Rebellion, which involved a lot of Chinese casualties on their hands. Cut and paste German president for a corresponding German memorial or cemetery.

It may be a really sensitive matter to China, but not to the rest of the world. While the British celebrate Churchill, we see him as a mass murderer. Chinese probably have no great opinion either way. It's all a matter of perspective. China has an issue with Yasukuni Jinja simply because among all the soldiers commemorated there are those convicted as war criminals.

From an Indian perspective, as Dr.Pal's dissenting judgement shows, we don't really see their convictions as legally valid in the first place, because one group of criminals (Churchill and Bombs Away LeMay being examples) were judging other criminals. You'd be hard pressed to convince us it's such a terrible thing, when a guy who killed 20-50 million Chinese has a mausoleum in central Beijing to him, complete with a formaldehyde infused version of what's left of him.

If you choose that one colonizers is more expedient to harangue today than others, that is your priority. I think Christopher Sidor and Anand_K make some really interesting points. There's a significant background story behind China's angst with Japan that has very little to do with 14 guys at Yasukuni. But that is your problem, despite repeatedly invoking Godwin's Law.

How am I misrepresenting what the shrine is? Let me rephrase my question just to be perfectly clear: If Germany had the exact equivalent of the Yasukuni, i.e. memorializing all of German war dead including the likes of Hitler and Goebbels, and the German chancellor goes there to pay homage, how do you think the world would react?

The Arlington Memorial is the same exact ilk as the Yasukuni or a hypothetical German memorial that contains Hitler. Andrew Jackson and his Trail of Tears is every bit as despicable as Japanese mass murderers. Worse, even--at least the Japanese government simply acquiesced the atrocities, Jackson ordered them. So why is it that the a German homage is unthinkable, a Japanese homage is controversial, while an American homage isn't even a blip on the radar? It's because of one word: Power. Americans have plenty of power, the native Americans have none. The allies had all the power, the Germans had none. The Chinese, the Koreans, and the Japanese all have power, and that's why there is a controversy. Why can't Churchill, Truman, and Tojo all be terrible? The first two had the power the wiggle away from all responsibility, but the other is having a much tougher time because the ones he offended now has power.

Indeed, who the Chinese and Korean people choose to take umbrage is their problem, so why insist that they shouldn't take umbrage at Japanese offenses in WWII? Two wrongs don't make a right, and the Japanese wrongs are the ones they picked to make right. The Chinese and the Koreans don't trust Japan's pacifist facade. The pacifist constitution is imposed by the Americans, they believe that as long as Japan does not acknowledge its history, that it will overturn the constitution and become militaristic as soon as they can. So long as they still worship war criminals and deny the existence of forced comfort women, the Japan that died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki may still rise from the ashes. Already we're seeing Japan adopting a new stance "proactive pacifism" just as soon Washington looses its grip in the face of a rising China. The trend will continue, and everyone in East Asia is preparing for the worst.

In the end, what each nation must do is not to prevent atrocities, it's to prevent atrocities levied upon itself, and that will take power.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 27 Dec 2013 12:56

China wants Japan to militarize and even nuclearize.

By nuclearizing, Japan won't need US anymore as a security guard. It will be bad news for South Korea too.

By militarizing, it will bankrupt Japan sooner with its economy already on shaky grounds.

Some "Great Game" is being played out in North East Asia.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Dec 2013 13:16

Christopher Sidor wrote: The Japanese are not worshiping Hitler or his ilk. They are paying respect to their dead, people who have died for Japan, no matter how misguided they may have been. They are not paying respect to the ideology of Imperial Japan or seeking to emulate it or trying to repeat what they did in 1931-45.

The meaning of a message is up to the listener, no? I can say "F--- you" to some aborigines in Papa New Guinea, and I'd probably get a smile back, but the same message would get me a punch in the face in Detroit, no? Shinzo Abe knows how the Chinese and the Koreans interpret visits to Yasukuni, but he does so anyway. It's clear what message he's trying to send, no?

{deleted}

The Japan you refer got burnt and destroyed in the nuclear holocaust of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That Japan does not exist anymore. It is only kept alive in the pages of history. The contemporary Japan and Japanese have no role whatsoever with what happened in 1931-45. It like children paying for what their fathers and grand fathers did. That is not the right thing to do.

Japanese atrocity between 1931-45, its racism and sheer monstrosity is not to be defended. We do not belittle the horrors that were carried by the Japanese on China or Korea or any other part of East Asia. It was not to be done. But it was no different than what the Britishers, Americans, Frenchmen and other Asian nations did prior to 1945. Or what certain other nations are still doing after 1945.

Now, you're right, the children shouldn't have to pay for what their ancestors did, they just need to show that they won't commit the same crimes that their ancestor did. Shinzo Abe, the grandson of a convicted war criminal, is clearly failing on this account. And maybe you guys don't know this, but Japanese schools teach shockingly little about WWII and most Japanese have no idea that events like the Rape of Nanking ever occurred. Perhaps I got carried away a bit earlier, but the Chinese and Koreans don't ask that modern day Japanese citizens pay in blood or money for their ancestors' crimes, but only that they face their history so that they may choose to not repeat it just as the German kids do today.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 27 Dec 2013 13:24

DavidD wrote: Indeed, who the Chinese and Korean people choose to take umbrage is their problem, so why insist that they shouldn't take umbrage at Japanese offenses in WWII?

Talking offense at what happened between 1931-45 is different than demonizing contemporary Japanese. The people who did those terrible things are not todays Japanese. They are grand fathers of today's Japanese. Since a child should not be held accountable for his parents sins, current Japanese population should not be held responsible for the activities of their fore fathers. The current Japanese population has not done anything to harm the East Asians. They have infact been helpful and supportive.

DavidD wrote: The Chinese and the Koreans don't trust Japan's pacifist facade. The pacifist constitution is imposed by the Americans, they believe that as long as Japan does not acknowledge its history, that it will overturn the constitution and become militaristic as soon as they can.

If the Koreans the Chinese do not trust the Japanese pacifist then that trust-deficit should be tackled. This trust-deficit is no justification for a blanket label of "war criminals" to be applied to all the current Japanese population or to ask Japanese to pay for what their fore-fathers did. Japan has to overturn the constitution because of the actions and attitude of some of its neighbours. Peace in North-East Asia is threatened by other entities who see Japanese as a nice beating stick to divert attention from their own domestic failings. Before asking Japan to acknowledge its history it would be better if other countries of North-East Asia acknowledge their own history and the current evils, occupations and rapes being conducted. Japans misbehaviour stopped in 1945. Certain East Asian Nations mis behaviour has continued till date and in many respects has exceeded what the Japanese had done.

DavidD wrote: So long as they still worship war criminals and deny the existence of forced comfort women, the Japan that died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki may still rise from the ashes. Already we're seeing Japan adopting a new stance "proactive pacifism" just as soon Washington looses its grip in the face of a rising China. The trend will continue, and everyone in East Asia is preparing for the worst.

If a non-pacific Japan rises it will solely be due to the actions of its certain neighbours.

DavidD wrote: In the end, what each nation must do is not to prevent atrocities, it's to prevent atrocities levied upon itself, and that will take power.

In the end what each nation must do is prevent lies from being spread. In the end what each nation must do is to see clearly the difference between the sins of the fathers and the sins of the children. Otherwise it will be justified to kill Jews because of what they did to Christ
OR
it will be justified to kill Muslims because of what their forefathers did in North-Western India and other parts of world
OR
it will be justified to kill the Chinese for what they are current doing to Tibetans, Uyghurs and Mongolians
OR
The list just goes on and on and on and on.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Dec 2013 13:26

DavidD,

{deleted}

Your lot are ranting over Japan, while you worship mass murderers like Mao. What the?? The PRC Govt brutalizes people 24/7 and you jump and scream over Japan. In the meantime, you crave Japanese technology, Japanese investment.

Just smacks of expedient hypocrisy TBH.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Dec 2013 13:40

Christopher Sidor wrote:
DavidD wrote: In the end, what each nation must do is not to prevent atrocities, it's to prevent atrocities levied upon itself, and that will take power.
In the end what each nation must do is prevent lies from being spread. In the end what each nation must do is to see clearly the difference between the sins of the fathers and the sins of the children. Otherwise it will be justified to kill Jews because of what they did to Christ
OR
it will be justified to kill Muslims because of what their forefathers did in North-Western India and other parts of world
OR
it will be justified to kill the Chinese for what they are current doing to Tibetans, Uyghurs and Mongolians
OR
The list just goes on and on and on and on.

My my, such naivete. Self preservation is the name of the game. Lies will always be there, better to strengthen yourself so that you're not on the receiving end of some "justified" scheme to kill you.

As for your other points, I replied directly to you in another post, we can continue there.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Dec 2013 13:56

{deleted}

Elections are only good for cultural policies like gay marriage and abortion rights, the policies that deals with money and power are simply too complicated for the common man to understand. This is why democracy will always tend toward working for the super rich, while you commoners pretend as if you had a say in them.

Don't think for a second that I believe China's system is any better. They're all the same. Power will always tend to gravitate toward the few until the have-nots revolt, and this is why no nation can last forever.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 27 Dec 2013 14:07

What I am about to say over here does not in any way mean or imply that Japanese track record in 1931-45 was trivial or in any way less barbaric.

DavidD wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: The Japanese are not worshiping Hitler or his ilk. They are paying respect to their dead, people who have died for Japan, no matter how misguided they may have been. They are not paying respect to the ideology of Imperial Japan or seeking to emulate it or trying to repeat what they did in 1931-45.
The meaning of a message is up to the listener, no? I can say "F--- you" to some aborigines in Papa New Guinea, and I'd probably get a smile back, but the same message would get me a punch in the face in Detroit, no? Shinzo Abe knows how the Chinese and the Koreans interpret visits to Yasukuni, but he does so anyway. It's clear what message he's trying to send, no?

Abe will have to answer that question if there is a message that he is trying to send. But assuming that the message that he is trying to send is something ominous is taking things too far.

{deleted}

DavidD wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: The Japan you refer got burnt and destroyed in the nuclear holocaust of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That Japan does not exist anymore. It is only kept alive in the pages of history. The contemporary Japan and Japanese have no role whatsoever with what happened in 1931-45. It like children paying for what their fathers and grand fathers did. That is not the right thing to do.

Japanese atrocity between 1931-45, its racism and sheer monstrosity is not to be defended. We do not belittle the horrors that were carried by the Japanese on China or Korea or any other part of East Asia. It was not to be done. But it was no different than what the Britishers, Americans, Frenchmen and other Asian nations did prior to 1945. Or what certain other nations are still doing after 1945.
Now, you're right, the children shouldn't have to pay for what their ancestors did, they just need to show that they won't commit the same crimes that their ancestor did.

Which they have showed for the past 68 years. In the past 68 years Japan has not invaded any of its neighbour or threatened to or even made such types of aggressive behaviour. The same cannot be said for many of the other North-East Asian Nations. Will the Chinese commit to not do the crimes that their forefathers did in Tibet, Xianjing or Inner Mongolia and which by the way their children are still doing? Or will the CPC ask forgiveness for running tanks over protesters in Tiananmen square and promise not to do it anywhere else? When Chinese and Koreans have themselves not done the same thing for the crimes they are committing as of day on what basis are they questioning Japanese track record?

DavidD wrote: Shinzo Abe, the grandson of a convicted war criminal, is clearly failing on this account. And maybe you guys don't know this, but Japanese schools teach shockingly little about WWII and most Japanese have no idea that events like the Rape of Nanking ever occurred. Perhaps I got carried away a bit earlier, but the Chinese and Koreans don't ask that modern day Japanese citizens pay in blood or money for their ancestors' crimes, but only that they face their history so that they may choose to not repeat it just as the German kids do today.

Let us examine what the Chinese textbooks teach about Tibet, East Turkestan and Mongolia. Let us examine what they teach about 1989. Let us see what they teach about SCS and Taiwan. Now let us look at North Korea and its textbooks. There is a saying in the Christian world, people who live in glass houses ought not to throw stones at others.
Japanese have a history of the past 68 years of not attacking or assaulting anyone while a majority of East-Asian Nations were having rape orgy on Independent nations or invading their neighbours. In fact the onus of good behaviour is not on the Japanese it is on the North Korean and Chinese.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 27 Dec 2013 14:12

One more thing why is that comfort women for Japanese is a massive issue but comfort women for Chairman Mao or current crop of CPC leadership is not to be mentioned?
Was it because the Japanese were defeated in 1945 and Mao died peacefully in sleep without answering for his demonic urges?

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Dec 2013 15:05

Christopher Sidor wrote:What I am about to say over here does not in any way mean or imply that Japanese track record in 1931-45 was trivial or in any way less barbaric.

Abe will have to answer that question if there is a message that he is trying to send. But assuming that the message that he is trying to send is something ominous is taking things too far.

Does Abe know how China and Korea would interpret this message? If he knows, and I think you and I both know that he knows, then it's clear what his message is.

There are plenty in China who don't like Mao as well. You may not know this, but those who decry Mao's policies is very likely to be in the majority. My father is a self-professed Mao admirer, and he complains often that Chinese people these days ignore Mao's contributions too often and focus only on his poor policies. Perhaps "forgive" is a poor choice of word, but the level of enmity toward Mao pales in comparison to the enmity toward Japan. {deleted}

Which they have showed for the past 68 years. In the past 68 years Japan has not invaded any of its neighbour or threatened to or even made such types of aggressive behaviour. The same cannot be said for many of the other North-East Asian Nations. Will the Chinese commit to not do the crimes that their forefathers did in Tibet, Xianjing or Inner Mongolia and which by the way their children are still doing? Or will the CPC ask forgiveness for running tanks over protesters in Tiananmen square and promise not to do it anywhere else? When Chinese and Koreans have themselves not done the same thing for the crimes they are committing as of day on what basis are they questioning Japanese track record?

Thank you for proving my point. The Chinese are still committing those crimes in Tibet and Xinjiang precisely because they have not repented. Same will happen to Japan once Uncle Sam lifts its thumb and allow Japan to rise again. This is why the Chinese and the Koreans need to make sure that Japan faces history lest it repeat itself.

Let us examine what the Chinese textbooks teach about Tibet, East Turkestan and Mongolia. Let us examine what they teach about 1989. Let us see what they teach about SCS and Taiwan. Now let us look at North Korea and its textbooks. There is a saying in the Christian world, people who live in glass houses ought not to throw stones at others.
Japanese have a history of the past 68 years of not attacking or assaulting anyone while a majority of East-Asian Nations were having rape orgy on Independent nations or invading their neighbours. In fact the onus of good behaviour is not on the Japanese it is on the North Korean and Chinese.

Pretty much the same as my previous paragraph, China is a great example of why China needs Japan to repent. When I was a child in China, I had no friggin clue about the history of Tibet or Xinjiang. I had no idea that the people there actually have a legitimate claim to self-rule if not outright independence. It wasn't until I moved to America that I had learned these things, because you sure as heck ain't gonna learn that in China. Trust me, I had the hardest time wrapping my head around this "new" information. Even now when I hear of Tibet independence I still reflexively think "of course Tibet is rightfully a part of China" before thinking "well...that's actually not true...." I imagine imagine it's the same for Japanese people with the way they teach about WWII. This is precisely why China needs Japan to face its history and repent, lest China becomes to Japan what Tibet is to China or worse, what North America is to Canadians and Americans.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 27 Dec 2013 16:11

DavidD wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:What I am about to say over here does not in any way mean or imply that Japanese track record in 1931-45 was trivial or in any way less barbaric.

Abe will have to answer that question if there is a message that he is trying to send. But assuming that the message that he is trying to send is something ominous is taking things too far.
Does Abe know how China and Korea would interpret this message? If he knows, and I think you and I both know that he knows, then it's clear what his message is.

After 68 years of being the most pacifist nation and pacifist citizens of North-East-Asia Japan is still questioned and that too by people who have done worst than that in the past 68 years. Instead of looking for ulterior motive please ask Abe what message he is trying to send, if there is. The answer might surprise everybody. It need not be ulterior.

{deleted}

DavidD wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: Which they have showed for the past 68 years. In the past 68 years Japan has not invaded any of its neighbour or threatened to or even made such types of aggressive behaviour. The same cannot be said for many of the other North-East Asian Nations. Will the Chinese commit to not do the crimes that their forefathers did in Tibet, Xianjing or Inner Mongolia and which by the way their children are still doing? Or will the CPC ask forgiveness for running tanks over protesters in Tiananmen square and promise not to do it anywhere else? When Chinese and Koreans have themselves not done the same thing for the crimes they are committing as of day on what basis are they questioning Japanese track record?
Thank you for proving my point. The Chinese are still committing those crimes in Tibet and Xinjiang precisely because they have not repented. Same will happen to Japan once Uncle Sam lifts its thumb and allow Japan to rise again. This is why the Chinese and the Koreans need to make sure that Japan faces history lest it repeat itself.

You are assuming that once Uncle SAM goes Japan will go back to being bad. Before making sure that the Japanese do not allow history to repeat again, the Chinese and North Koreans have to look at their track record and reform themselves. They have to vacate the lands that they have occupied apologize to the countries that they have invaded, threatened and raped.

DavidD wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: Let us examine what the Chinese textbooks teach about Tibet, East Turkestan and Mongolia. Let us examine what they teach about 1989. Let us see what they teach about SCS and Taiwan. Now let us look at North Korea and its textbooks. There is a saying in the Christian world, people who live in glass houses ought not to throw stones at others.
Japanese have a history of the past 68 years of not attacking or assaulting anyone while a majority of East-Asian Nations were having rape orgy on Independent nations or invading their neighbours. In fact the onus of good behaviour is not on the Japanese it is on the North Korean and Chinese.
Pretty much the same as my previous paragraph, China is a great example of why China needs Japan to repent. When I was a child in China, I had no friggin clue about the history of Tibet or Xinjiang. I had no idea that the people there actually have a legitimate claim to self-rule if not outright independence. It wasn't until I moved to America that I had learned these things, because you sure as heck ain't gonna learn that in China. Trust me, I had the hardest time wrapping my head around this "new" information. Even now when I hear of Tibet independence I still reflexively think "of course Tibet is rightfully a part of China" before thinking "well...that's actually not true...." I imagine imagine it's the same for Japanese people with the way they teach about WWII. This is precisely why China needs Japan to face its history and repent, lest China becomes to Japan what Tibet is to China or worse, what North America is to Canadians and Americans.

Japanese have repented enough. This is starting to look like a case of people expecting Japanese to keep on perennially repenting. The current population of Japan is going to wonder, we did not invade East Asia. We did not behead people. We did not drag women to become comfort women, why should we apologize? The current crop of Japanese may resist once they see PRC and North Koreans trying to dictate terms to it. Already Japanese see the Chinese as the biggest threat and that is all thanks to what PRC, Taiwan and Hong Kong citizens have managed to do.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 27 Dec 2013 17:11

Our token Chinese-American is doing a Modi equal equal Mao without knowing the facts.The comparison is laughable. The cases against Modi are purely politically motivated.Unlike Mao, they have been investigated and re investigated by the anti-Modi regime in order to implicate the man but so far they could not find even a shred of evidence against him. Unlike Mao, he has faced the judiciary again and again and the courts proved what is known to everyone in India - that these are purely baseless allegations without any evidence concocted by his opponents to defame it in a attempt to stop him from becoming PM. Even the suggestion that the casulties in 62 conflict are less than the victim casualties in 2002 riots is also not factually correct .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Dec 2013 17:21

The illusion of choice is powerful, isn't it? Modi seems like one that would break the mold, but rest assured, India will be just like America in the long run. That is, you'll all be ruled by different people who all work for the same big corporations. Republicans, Democracts, ha! As if there's a difference! The super rich will select a set of puppets that you can vote for because they're the ones who direct election coffers. The only difference between candidates will be which set of super rich they'll work for. Here in the states people debate fiercely about Obamacare as if any of them can actually tell me what Obamacare is.

Dude, what are you on about?? India will find its own path - whether that be about corporations or its own middle way, those are its own choices to make. In contrast, look at PRC... you have a leader who literally ruined his own nation, reduced PRC citizens to cannibalism, and y'all cant even curse at him. There are people who are being literally executed for talking to the wrong person the wrong way..

Now in India, things arent perfect by any means, but its misgovernance and misallocation of funds - things which can be fixed iteratively as people choose. We dont have a master sitting on our heads with a jackboot and an Ak-47 to shoot us if we say otherwise.

{deleted}

Don't think for a second that I believe China's system is any better. They're all the same. Power will always tend to gravitate toward the few until the have-nots revolt, and this is why no nation can last forever.

My point is Chinas system is worse. In India, we had a bunch of incompetents rise to the top but now with rising aspirations, they are being mocked at and there are good chances they will be thrown aside. We dislike them because they were corrupt, ruined us economically, made money at our expense, subverted local culture for their narrow parochial interests...guess what, the PRC Communists have done 100X worse, including whatever the colonials did to India and more. In India, we would have and would loathe such parasites and call them names, seek to ensure they never came back etc. In the PRCs case, not only do they remain in power, y'all cant even throw a single egg at them.

Its so bad that one must wonder how long it'll continue before y'all educated folks realize this.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Dec 2013 17:33

DavidD wrote:There are plenty in China who don't like Mao as well. You may not know this, but those who decry Mao's policies is very likely to be in the majority. My father is a self-professed Mao admirer, and he complains often that Chinese people these days ignore Mao's contributions too often and focus only on his poor policies. Perhaps "forgive" is a poor choice of word, but the level of enmity toward Mao pales in comparison to the enmity toward Japan. I'm sure it's similar in India. How many Indians died in the hands of the Chinese? How many Indians died in the Sikh Pogrom? In terms of deaths, how does the war of 1962 rank amongst all the social upheavals in India since 1950? How many deaths in the hands of the Chinese has there been since 1962? How many deaths as a result of religious and ethnic conflicts have there been since then? Modi's actions (or inactions) in Gujarat in the span of a few days caused more Indian deaths than the Chinese has in the past 50 years, yet China is demonized while Modi is about to become the most powerful man in India? Perhaps "forgiven" is not the right word to describe what has happened to Mao or Modi, but clearly, tragedies incurred by outsiders outweigh those incurred by insiders.

This is Maos record.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 81630.html

I mean this is the thing.

In India we go nuts (often egged on by useful idiots and vested interests) in hairsplitting a leaders inability to stop riots which Indians are actually responsible for (and that means the common public settling scores). That when the leader is not personally culpable and has been cleared of multiple investigations. It takes twelve long years for the man to even prove himself as an administrator.

In contrast, your lot cannot even talk openly of a genocidal loon who murdered tens of millions of his own people for no good reason.

Your current folks are running slave labor camps.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/06/world ... oween-sos/

And the money from this reportedly goes to PRC top honchos. But the average Chinese citizen has no say in that govt.

How can you as an educated Chinese guy not even understand the level of lunatic oppression the PRC Govt is doing? And instead of being accountable, it just starts off some cribbing about the Japanese and so forth.

Meanwhile, it keeps going after the Japanese for Japanese developed technology and capital. I mean, if the Chinese govt or Chinese people were so angry at the Japanese and their self respect was indeed so offended, you wouldnt be doing this. You claim todays Japan is yet to atone, yet you do business with them as it suits you and turn the otherway and hate them the next.

Meanwhile, your PRC party honchos laugh at y'all and y'cant even say anything about it. Go on, stay in China and curse the PRC Govt the way we all mock GOI on this forum.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 Dec 2013 19:57

Moderation Note: This thread is about China. Discussions about Indian politics are attempts to troll. Don't feed the troll. Please report posts and do not respond.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 Dec 2013 20:10

DavidD wrote:How am I misrepresenting what the shrine is? Let me rephrase my question just to be perfectly clear: If Germany had the exact equivalent of the Yasukuni, i.e. memorializing all of German war dead including the likes of Hitler and Goebbels, and the German chancellor goes there to pay homage, how do you think the world would react?

You've answered your own question. Nothing would happen. Because the Germans have power today; all of Europe is beholden to German power. The Japanese - vis a vis the west - have power. China - relative to Japan - never had enough power to compel it to stop enabling PMs to visit Yasukuni, something every single Japanese PM has done in at least a private capacity since the mid 1970s. The west has no reason to pursue Japan because they got the lb of flesh and Japan is a daddy moneybags of the east.

So, as you're aware, this isn't about Yasukuni. Like Anand_K pointed out, this is about a historic power dynamic between Japan and China, where the latter had found itself disadvantaged against a tiny island neighbor again and again. It doesn't really matter if Yasukuni Shrine is what it is now - a Shinto version of the tomb of the unknown soldier that it actually is - or an imaginary explicit memorial to Tojo as you imagine it.

What enrages China today that it has grown significantly bigger than Japan and they still won't stop. It doesn't matter that Nakasone made a trip to Yasukuni as much as Abe does. Deng was just getting his bearings then, and China was still a land of bicycles and Mao suits then. But today ?

It's been a recurring theme in the power dynamic with Japan for 100s of years. Japan has been impossible to Sinicize despite millenia of Chinese efforts to culturally subjugate it, even when Chinese power grew sizeably relative to Japan. That clearly rankles China. It doesn't want an apology from Japan. It wants to control Japan, and has not been able to do so, essentially forever. The only ones who ever bought Japan to heel had been plundering China right before that.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 27 Dec 2013 20:41

why are we letting this Chicom troll derail the thread? the topic is how to handle the threat posed by China in its current form.

China's artificial issues with Japan are not the subject here. and more importantly, we couldn't care less for whatever umbrage China takes against Japan. that's not our concern.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Dec 2013 20:47

devesh wrote:why are we letting this Chicom troll derail the thread? the topic is how to handle the threat posed by China in its current form.

China's artificial issues with Japan are not the subject here. and more importantly, we couldn't care less for whatever umbrage China takes against Japan. that's not our concern.

Yes it is India's concern. Especially in geo-political relationships and strategic alliances. Japan brings a lot goods and services to the table. That should be an obvious statement to you.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 Dec 2013 20:54

Attempts to derail using Indian domestic politics have been stopped. Indian posters take the bait far too easily and thoughtlessly, unfortunately.

However, understanding the extent of the Chinese need to control its periphery is a valuable exercise, and Japan is a great example of it. The Chinese do not do 'allies'. Chinese only recognize a tributary relationship. Their issue with Japan is that not only do Japan refuse to submit, but they've gone so far as to ransack the mainland multiple times as well. Japan sees it as a straightforward exercise of military and strategic outreach. For China, the invasion episodes amount to a massive slap on their faces.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 27 Dec 2013 21:18

TSJones wrote:
devesh wrote:why are we letting this Chicom troll derail the thread? the topic is how to handle the threat posed by China in its current form.

China's artificial issues with Japan are not the subject here. and more importantly, we couldn't care less for whatever umbrage China takes against Japan. that's not our concern.
Yes it is India's concern. Especially in geo-political relationships and strategic alliances. Japan brings a lot goods and services to the table. That should be an obvious statement to you.

yes, Japan's relationship with India is important. but China's antics wrt to Abe to any other Japanese PM visiting a war memorial is of no concern to India. as far as we India is concerned, China can keep on with the nonsense for which we have neither time nor patience. in short, China can keep throwing temper tantrums about Japanese war memorials, but India should not give any legitimacy to those tantrums by actually debating the so-called "validity" of them.

especially the way one poster has managed to start off a convoluted debate bringing in Hitler, Germany, etc is simply a pointless exercise which ultimately has nothing in it for us.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Dec 2013 23:12

As Indian I see no difference between Hitler and Churchill and Nazi party and British royalty. We should understand weakness invites aggression and China will continue to threaten others and test waters and push the limits. Japan not obliging where as we shiver.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 28 Dec 2013 00:50

If we say that what PRC, Taiwan and North Korea are doing to Japan is not of our concern, then tomorrow the same would be done by PRC with us. This time instead of North Korea and Taiwan, PRC will have Pakistan and Sri Lanka on its side. We defend Japan due to two reasons because the bullying that is sought to be done on Japan is based on a fallacy. And secondly tomorrow it does not happen to us. We take a stand now or forever give up. We definitely cannot be like Balram of Mahabharata, who sought to influence the course of the war at the end after he refused to take a part init.

PRC and Taiwan have to know that their bullying will not stand.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 28 Dec 2013 02:42

The topic of China vs Japan has a lesson for us in as much as it reveals the Chinese psyche and view of their neighborhood. The problem they have with Japan is that Japan never subjected to China as a vassal. In fact they celebrate the typhoons that destroyed the Yuan Dynasty ruler Kublai Khan's invasion fleet as the divine wind (kamikaze).

The Chinese have a more rational view of the Mongols and Manchus because both those were Sinicized and absorbed despite being originally rulers. Mao conveniently helped eliminate Qing/Manchu-based cultural artifacts, along with a lot else. The Japanese were never Sinicized. That, combined with both their refusal to subject, and having had the audacity to invade the mainland, makes the Chinese extremely bothered by them.

The US carpetbombing the Japanese into submission gave China an opportunity to demand the Japanese also repent for their actions against China. Yasukuni is just a microcosm of a larger issue the Chinese have with Japan. Unfortunately, once the west flattened Japan, hung a few guys and they had little issue with seeing Japan rise again, especially since they went out of their way to maintain a pacifist policy of constructive engagement within their neighborhood. China on the other hand, retains its historical rancor, and finds it has no avenue to obtain it, or to force a subservient posture from Japan.

It speaks for a strategic worldview that places a great deal of emphasis on remembering and attempting to get even for slights. While it makes them dangerous to outsiders, it also provides an avenue to channel that societal tendency inwards, as demonstrated by their own frequent violent upheavals. This requires others to always avoid treating or addressing them as a unified entity, and apportion blame or praise for their actions only to some parties.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 28 Dec 2013 04:31

Christopher Sidor wrote:If we say that what PRC, Taiwan and North Korea are doing to Japan is not of our concern, then tomorrow the same would be done by PRC with us. This time instead of North Korea and Taiwan, PRC will have Pakistan and Sri Lanka on its side. We defend Japan due to two reasons because the bullying that is sought to be done on Japan is based on a fallacy. And secondly tomorrow it does not happen to us. We take a stand now or forever give up. We definitely cannot be like Balram of Mahabharata, who sought to influence the course of the war at the end after he refused to take a part init.

PRC and Taiwan have to know that their bullying will not stand.

But "bullying" will always stand. The strong "bullies" the weak, it's been true since time immemorial. The biggest bully Japan and indeed the world has faced in the past 60 years is not China, but the U.S.. The U.S. occupied Japanese territory, wrote its constitution, dictated its foreign policy, and kept its military down so it would rely on the U.S. military. It stood for 60 years and it's still standing now.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 28 Dec 2013 06:04

Suraj wrote:The topic of China vs Japan has a lesson for us in as much as it reveals the Chinese psyche and view of their neighborhood. The problem they have with Japan is that Japan never subjected to China as a vassal. In fact they celebrate the typhoons that destroyed the Yuan Dynasty ruler Kublai Khan's invasion fleet as the divine wind (kamikaze).

The Chinese have a more rational view of the Mongols and Manchus because both those were Sinicized and absorbed despite being originally rulers. Mao conveniently helped eliminate Qing/Manchu-based cultural artifacts, along with a lot else. The Japanese were never Sinicized. That, combined with both their refusal to subject, and having had the audacity to invade the mainland, makes the Chinese extremely bothered by them.

The US carpetbombing the Japanese into submission gave China an opportunity to demand the Japanese also repent for their actions against China. Yasukuni is just a microcosm of a larger issue the Chinese have with Japan. Unfortunately, once the west flattened Japan, hung a few guys and they had little issue with seeing Japan rise again, especially since they went out of their way to maintain a pacifist policy of constructive engagement within their neighborhood. China on the other hand, retains its historical rancor, and finds it has no avenue to obtain it, or to force a subservient posture from Japan.

It speaks for a strategic worldview that places a great deal of emphasis on remembering and attempting to get even for slights. While it makes them dangerous to outsiders, it also provides an avenue to channel that societal tendency inwards, as demonstrated by their own frequent violent upheavals. This requires others to always avoid treating or addressing them as a unified entity, and apportion blame or praise for their actions only to some parties.

I think that's a pretty accurate view of the current situation. A few things I would add are these:

It would be an understatement to say that China is "bothered" by Japan. It sees Japan as an existential threat, and it seeks to subjugate Japan the way the U.S. has subjugated it, i.e. exert maximal military, political, and legal authority over it. It was not a priority for most of dynastic China because technology did not allow for much interactions between the two. The only two significant conflicts I can recall from the past couple thousand of years of dynastic China was Kublai Khan's invasion of Japan and the Japanese invasion of Korea in the late 1500's. The first wasn't even really Chinese considering that Han China were still fighting Kublai Khan themselves as a part of the Southern Song dynasty, and the second took place almost entirely on Korean soil. With advances in technology, successful invasions across the seas became possible as Japan demonstrated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and now China sees the need to confront Japan in earnest.

As for my invocations of Indian domestic policies, it's hardly an attempt to "troll". It was to draw analogies close to Indian hearts in an attempt to seek understanding. It's easy to put Chinese on Chinese crime on the same level of Japanese on Chinese crime, but it's not so easy when comparing Chinese on Indian crime with Indian on Indian crime now, is it?