India-US Strategic News and Discussion

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 14 Dec 2013 21:28

From above

Article 42 – Notification of Arrest, Detention or Prosecution

In the event of arrest or detention, pending trial, of a member of the consular staff, or of criminal proceedings being instituted against him, the receiving State shall promptly notify the head of the consular post. Should the latter be himself the object of any such measure, the receiving State shall notify the sending State through the diplomatic channel.

And this occurred in new York city! What would be level of professionalism outside the new York city is anybody's guess.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 14 Dec 2013 21:31

...
If the US were to go after employers who have cheated employees of their due wages as given on H1B petitions, then likely thousands might see jail time....

why H1B visa abusers, how many big corporation CEOs were publicly arrested and sent to jail over bringing illegal hispanics for manual work they performed or for that matter over pay arrangements.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 14 Dec 2013 21:36

...
And this occurred in new York city! What would be level of professionalism outside the new York city is anybody's guess.

Don't think this is about NY or outside of NY. People in power keep list of vulnerable targets, and use it opportunistically. Like the erectile disfunction ad, "when the moment is right".

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 14 Dec 2013 23:58

I am certainly for India arrresting US diplomatic corps for domestic abuse and human trafficking.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Dec 2013 00:03

TSJones wrote:I am certainly for India arrresting US diplomatic corps for domestic abuse and human trafficking.

It would be more for espionage and/or armed assault, the ones that the US gungadins are famous for

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 15 Dec 2013 00:31

putnanja wrote:
TSJones wrote:I am certainly for India arrresting US diplomatic corps for domestic abuse and human trafficking.
It would be more for espionage and/or armed assault, the ones that the US gungadins are famous for

Those aren't done by diplo staff, those are done by contractors.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 15 Dec 2013 02:21

India missed the opportunity with Union Carbide CEO, Mr Anderson, during Bhopal tragedy.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 15 Dec 2013 03:55

Good god that was decades ago....

habal · Post by **habal** » 15 Dec 2013 08:16

this seems to be motivated by the State Dept who is supporting a closet Khalistani like Preet Bharara. It's their attempt at giving a name, vehicle and an image to an India hater. His wiki page claims he was born in 1968, so in 1988 he would be 20 and just at the right age at the time of the peak of insurgency. All these Bharara, Kejriwal type smooth characters are all backed up by some US agency of the other.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 15 Dec 2013 09:40

habal wrote:this seems to be motivated by the State Dept who is supporting a closet Khalistani like Preet Bharara. It's their attempt at giving a name, vehicle and an image to an India hater. His wiki page claims he was born in 1968, so in 1988 he would be 20 and just at the right age at the time of the peak of insurgency. All these Bharara, Kejriwal type smooth characters are all backed up by some US agency of the other.

Interesting..Does Preet identify himself as Sikh or Hindu ? He seems to have a mixed parentage...also his father-in-law is Pakistani.

Added later: This article suggests he has been quite even-handed: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... -americans

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Dec 2013 10:52

TSJones wrote:I am certainly for India arrresting US diplomatic corps for domestic abuse and human trafficking.

Diplo Corp would not be touched so easily. Reciprocity would require that India arrest Deputy Consular General or Incharge Consul General in any of the city where American Consulate is situated. I am sure Chennai should be prime target for such action ( which would require elaborate surveillance ) as they would have been reminded of DDT comment. But Indians are so co-opted into American dreams that they extend red carpet welcome to americans when they see one, be it frisking at Airport or easy access to them in Govt or Political establishment. Heck , leaked messages have indicated that they had easy run to all of them including RG.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 15 Dec 2013 10:55

it appears that this has been going on for a while.

the maid 'disappeared' and probably threatened suing and the dy.consul got some order from delhi court that as per work contract, civil case can only be done in india and nowhere else. hence the criminal case it seems.

at least one good thing has come out of this sorry episode. read that the govt is stopping this nanny/maid nonsense altogether.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 15 Dec 2013 11:00

chanakyaa wrote: why H1B visa abusers, how many big corporation CEOs were publicly arrested and sent to jail over bringing illegal hispanics for manual work they performed or for that matter over pay arrangements.

really? CEOs go to tijuana and drive illegal mexicans over for work?

they hire through contractors and will say that it is the contractors job to verify work validity. big corporation ceos don't get to become big corporation ceos by being complete numbnuts...

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 15 Dec 2013 11:19

Arresting diplomats never helps. India will never do that mistake. Our counter intelligence will use that to own the f*ker.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Dec 2013 11:57

Delhi case left NY with little option

- Indian injunction backfires on Devyani by closing civil litigation route and triggering criminal action
K.P. NAYAR

Washington, Dec. 14: Authorities in New York sought recourse to the extreme step of arresting India’s deputy consul general there, Devyani Khobragade, after India blocked any chance of resolving the dispute between her and her maid, Sangeeta Richard, over violation of her employment contract and charges of human trafficking through other means.

A Delhi High Court ad-interim injunction restraining Richard from instituting any actions or proceedings against Khobragade outside India meant that the civil legal route was closed in this case, according to sources with knowledge of how the case became a diplomatic hot potato.

These sources, who briefed this newspaper on background, insisted that authorities in New York were then left solely with the option of criminally proceeding against Khobragade.

These sources insist that her condition of employment which prohibited Richard from seeking recourse to justice in the US, where she worked, was tantamount to interfering with the due process of law on US soil.

The Americans argue that they respected the Indian court order barring civil proceedings against Khobragade. At the same time, they then used the criminal route to get the better of Indian tactics, according to sources with knowledge of how the thinking in the case evolved in the office of Preet Bharara, the attorney for the Southern District of New York, who authorised action against the diplomat.

Since the matter is sub judice, no one is prepared to go on record on the process and will only speak on background without attribution.

While these may point to the rationale behind American high-handedness in the case, it will remain a matter of diplomatic debate in the months and years ahead whether the political leadership here should have risked the bonhomie between Washington and New Delhi by allowing an Indian diplomat – that too, a woman with small children and its attendant sensitivities – to be humiliated in public.

Whatever the Obama administration may tell Indians for their consumption during the efforts to resolve this issue, no one here doubts if Khobragade would have been arrested without notifying the department of justice in Washington and in turn the state department.

At the same time, secretary of state John Kerry, who met foreign secretary Sujatha Singh during her Washington trip, is being given the benefit of doubt in the matter.

Unlike his one-time predecessor, Colin Powell, who deliberately kept under wraps in New Delhi the non-NATO ally status for Pakistan on his way to Islamabad, Kerry may not have known of the impending arrest in Manhattan. He met Singh two days before the arrest and may not have been notified at that point about what was to come.

While the Americans complain of attempts through the Indian judicial process to infringe US sovereignty in a domestic dispute, the Indians too have grievances in this matter.

Indian sources point out that after the maid absconded, the US government was requested to locate Richard and facilitate serving an Indian arrest warrant on her. That warrant was issued by the metropolitan magistrate of the South District Court in New Delhi under Sections 387, 420 and 120B of the Indian Penal Code.

Even if the ad-interim injunction by New Delhi may be construed as interference in the American process of law the US ought to have given a proper arrest warrant against Richard due and weighty consideration.

Instead, they completely ignored India’s request even as they knew the whereabouts of the maid. There is speculation that locally India used methods to intimidate the absconding maid instead of following US laws both in letter and spirit although this could not be confirmed.

If true, that may explain the hard line by law enforcement authorities in New York, who at that point, decided not to cooperate with India.

India’s charge d’affaires in Washington, Taranjit Singh Sandhu, again met senior officials in the state department regarding the treatment meted out to Khobragade and emphasised she is “entitled to the courtesy due to a diplomat in the country of her work,” according to a press release by the embassy here last night.

“It was also conveyed in no uncertain terms that this kind of treatment to one of our diplomats is absolutely unacceptable,” the release added.

Those here who argue that India was ill-advised to bring to bear on Americans the power of a Delhi court point to another incident which could have become a similar hot potato.

A year and a half ago, an embassy official in the consular section was accused by his neighbour in a Maryland suburb, a woman, of unwarranted advances by the official. Ambassador Nirupama Rao did not allow the official to even return to his residence that evening where he may have been arrested.

Instead, she put him on the first flight out of Washington to New Delhi and his belongings were later packed and sent back to India. The matter was closed as a consequence.

If Khobragade had been similarly sent back to India in June after her maid absconded and complained to local authorities, that would have been the end of this episode too. Instead, India relied on the presumed powers of a Delhi court injunction to tide over the matter.

The official who was swiftly repatriated by Rao was subsequently sent from India on a very comfortable foreign posting after it was conclusively ascertained that he was innocent and that the complainant woman had a habit of trapping men of substance with such false complaints either for extortion or other benefits

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 15 Dec 2013 12:33

A year and a half ago, an embassy official in the consular section was accused by his neighbour in a Maryland suburb, a woman, of unwarranted advances by the official. Ambassador Nirupama Rao did not allow the official to even return to his residence that evening where he may have been arrested.

Instead, she put him on the first flight out of Washington to New Delhi and his belongings were later packed and sent back to India. The matter was closed as a consequence.

If Khobragade had been similarly sent back to India in June after her maid absconded and complained to local authorities, that would have been the end of this episode too. WHY WAS IT NOT DONE ?Instead, India relied on the presumed powers of a Delhi court injunction to tide over the matter.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Dec 2013 12:36

I think she enjoyed living in NYC and it was a prestigious posting that was held by his uncle earlier.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 15 Dec 2013 12:39

There has been a serious lapse by top officers and they have to be held to their lapses.Devyani cannot decide her posting.This is not about her,it is about prestige of GOI.The authorities have failed miserably.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 15 Dec 2013 12:56

Gus wrote:
chanakyaa wrote: why H1B visa abusers, how many big corporation CEOs were publicly arrested and sent to jail over bringing illegal hispanics for manual work they performed or for that matter over pay arrangements.
really? CEOs go to tijuana and drive illegal mexicans over for work?

they hire through contractors and will say that it is the contractors job to verify work validity. big corporation ceos don't get to become big corporation ceos by being complete numbnuts...

...this is true and it's not just corporations but the government, school systems, etc, hire night time cleaning crew contractors to clean their facilities. Many illegal aliens from el salvadore, honduras, guatemala, etc, find work in the us that way. in order to stay undetected, these instituitions rotate their cleaning crew contracts every year so the illegals don't get hot, which eventually a lot of them do, and bring uhdue attention to their ultimate employers. the system stinks, and it is hypocritical to the highest order. If we can't pay a decent wage and hire Americans to do these jobs then we need a better system so that the correct wages are paid, the correct taxes are withheld, and foreign work force can be tracked so they can't just "disappear" from legal troubles, gang affiliations through either themselves or their children such as MS-13, etc and contagious diseases. In stead we wish to be stinking hypocrites. And we suffer all the violence and crime their of from the contractors, the illegals themselves and or their children. Not to mention crowded emergency rooms in hosipitals, crowded school rooms in barrios, and rampant untreated tuberculosis.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 15 Dec 2013 13:05

Given that this type of incident seems to happen only in New York, the prosecution is likely a fall out of losing the property tax case. MEA should consider moving the consulate to a more receptive jurisdiction. Perhaps appoint a honorary consul to keep up trade relations in NY.

India and Mongolia Win Ruling on New York Tax Suit

habal · Post by **habal** » 15 Dec 2013 20:17

Only quid-pro-quo can solve such issues, and nothing else will make any difference. Secondly, there must be a complete full-stop to any of this maid-nanny business for diplomats. If you cannot pull your own weight yourself abroad, then pack up bags and head home. What kind of third-world mentality makes such people carry a maid all around the world like they are some sibling of a Saudi prince, this is a third-world feudal 'hired-help' mentality which is barely tolerated in India but should be discouraged with extreme prejudice for all diplomats abroad. A common creche where all kids of all ages should be put up and without any favor or fear should be implemented asap.

It also seems as if the accused diplomat belonged to one of the 'quota communities' and thus the seamless father-daughter IFS link, it's very rare otherwise for someone from gen category to have their children too in IFS, and it may just be that due to that reason, there was also a reluctance on part of senior diplomats to force her to return after first strike. If one thing is a hot-potato for diplomats and civil servants, it is this accusation of being vindictive against a quota-wala for some reason. This is something that can ruin careers.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Dec 2013 01:54

>>a closet Khalistani like Preet Bharara.

What is the basis for this allegation?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 16 Dec 2013 03:24

Mr. Bharara is just doing his job and may be even doing it very well. He may be ambitious, but why is it bad? (unless he is doing something illegal to achieve his goals whatever they may be).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Dec 2013 05:58

FYI:

Government to launch 'Netra' for internet surveillance

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Dec 2013 07:31

Guess What? The U.S. and China Don’t Trust Each Other Much

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Dec 2013 10:48

>>It also seems as if the accused diplomat belonged to one of the 'quota communities' and thus the seamless father-daughter IFS link...

Is this mentioned anywhere or is it your deduction?

>>If one thing is a hot-potato for diplomats and civil servants, it is this accusation of being vindictive against a quota-wala for some reason. This is something that can ruin careers.

As opposed to vindictiveness against whom?

Please also answer the question about your allegation against Preet Bharara...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Dec 2013 11:18

Acharya wrote:Guess What? The U.S. and China Don’t Trust Each Other Much

That kind of perception will always remain for country that pursues independent foreign policy , take such survey in China or Russia you will get similar result ... these countries would aggresively guard their own national interest and peoples perception would be the same.

The only time one would find such surveys being more favourable to US are those countries which are poodle of US and all they do would be Haan Jee for any policy the US pursues.

habal · Post by **habal** » 16 Dec 2013 11:55

>>a closet Khalistani like Preet Bharara.

What is the basis for this allegation?

My basis for this is not rooted in inscrutable reasoning, but based on seeing Punjabi immigrants of Sikh origin in Canada who migrated in the 80s en masse, who seem to be most loyal of citizens and apply rules even more strictly than the European descent citizens of that country and especially so on Indians as if they have a score to settle or some vindictiveness on this issue. Any new immigrant of Indian descent can see this attitude on display when applying for eg say a driving license or any other document in their new country and has to go through one of these types who will most likely throw all the rules in the rulebook at you. And ofcourse, my opinion may well be biased to certain point of view. He may be a good citizen of his country, which does not matter to me ofcourse. His office may also have also warned the consulate on this matter previously but if the diplomat doesn't relent and absolutely wants to enjoy the 'sights, sounds & smells' of NYC and doesn't budge then it becomes a hot potato. What is her CR and past record in this matter is not known to me, but there is a likelihood of this happening. The 'Khalistani' word used might be a bit harsh, and spur of the moment. Vindictiveness might be more like it. It's a practical street-level look at the issue.

>> Is this mentioned anywhere or is it your deduction?

that was my initial suspiscion. Then confirmed later through enquiries on this specific issue.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Dec 2013 12:12

So there is no basis for it, apart from your own bias and your sources. What you are saying, essentially, is

1. that every Punjabi Sikh who migrated to North America is a closet Khalistani.

2. that the IFS discriminates in its treatment of accusations of vindictiveness against "quota-wallah" as opposed to whom, is not clear. In short, you don't know whether the IFS treats accusations of vindictiveness against any one party differently from another.

This is a firm warning. Any further repetition of this nonsense calling people names with absolutely zero factual basis, and slinging mud at bodies of the Indian state and its employees (again without any disclosable information to support it), will result in a ban. Your "sources" are only relevant if they can be disclosed, otherwise they may simply be mirroring your own biases, or you theirs. You are free to do that, but not here.

habal · Post by **habal** » 16 Dec 2013 12:53

>> This is a firm warning. Any further repetition of this nonsense calling people names with absolutely zero factual basis, and slinging mud at bodies of the Indian state and its employees (again without any disclosable information to support it), will result in a ban. Your "sources" are only relevant if they can be disclosed, otherwise they may simply be mirroring your own biases, or you theirs. You are free to do that, but not here.

Well, all that's fine. No offense intended. Just trying to find out how that girl became a sitting duck. Diplomats are usually an efficient bunch and when problems occur, they can well be pinpointed to a couple of reasons. What may be logical may also not always be pc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Dec 2013 13:14

among all 150+ foreign consulates how does one get plum postings like US/canada/Uk/Aus/singapore among hordes of aspirants? and not some detail like myanmar, BD, egypt or worse TSP?

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 16 Dec 2013 13:37

Ms. Khobragade served in TSP too..... and for chai-biskoot-watermelon-murg mussallam and diplomacy, TSP ain't so bad appaently. Except for the odd beatings of Indian diplomats and car-rammings etc.

BTW, TSP is seen as plum, if difficult posting.... very few ladies have served in our Isloo' mission. And remember the Madhuri motorham who fell for a honey-trap? She was in the Isloo' mission also.
I also remember an unwritten rule - no IMs serve in our TSP mission. The refrain is that "it is stressful for Indian Hindus and Christians and for Muslims it would be even more so"... or something like that.

I remember reading about this in an article about a high flier Indian Muslim IFS officer who wanted to serve in that mission but was strongly advised against that.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 16 Dec 2013 13:44

^^Bangladesh/Myanmar/Central Africa is probably the least attractive posting.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Dec 2013 14:24

Is it not telling that the esteemed Dy consul has managed to latch on to prime postings as well as various plots and flats including one flat worth many crores in the infamous Adarsh Society in Colaba, Mumbai??

Why so much of panic, unless said parties are politically well connected?? and that too to some powerful non congress ally, whose continuing support may be vital??

Even salman the dumb, has come out with strong condemnation of the US, in tone and tenor unheard of in recent memory.

Summoning the US ambassador?? When did salman grow a pair??

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Dec 2013 15:48

As a state, India holds great store by protocol and sticking to the letter and spirit of multilateral agreements. This is not an issue where political consultation which is really required - i.e. breach of protocol by a country's bureaucracy. They are not supposed to have done that, no matter what - without prior consultation and acquiescence at the very least (which is highly unlikely). Political reaction and support came a bit later (i.e. from Salman). But we don't know the full details yet.

The initial reaction by our side is not surprising at all in that light.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Dec 2013 17:32

No country would like its diplomats to be handcuffed and arrested, whatever be the situation. This is purely unacceptable. Let us not bring politics into this or her 'supposed' tainted past without really knowing the full story. A country that calls India as a great friend should have simply asked GoI to recall her if it really felt that she was in serious violation of laws.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Dec 2013 17:45

^^ Was she involved in some "official cover" activities, maybe for some Kaccha co?

Else cant understand why there would be such a humiliation of a "friendly nation" diplomat unless there was something else in the background. I dont recall even TSP diplomats being paraded around in cuffs in normal peacetimes even if caught red-handed with their local contacts within Desh

habal · Post by **habal** » 16 Dec 2013 19:43

>> among all 150+ foreign consulates how does one get plum postings like US/canada/Uk/Aus/singapore among hordes of aspirants? and not some detail like myanmar, BD, egypt or worse TSP?

It's really simple. Promotions to chosen posts need political recommendation. Some minister will forward a diplo's name and depending upon seniority of minister in pecking order. The postings are granted. Postings to the white commonwealth is always on basis of recommendations, professional calibre and seniority be damned. IAS/IFS bureaucrats are a big clique, they are all chummy with batchmates, and all seeking and receiving favors on various pretexts.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 16 Dec 2013 20:35

http://frontierindia.net/families-us-ww ... kram-singh

Families of US WW II MIA protest over Legion of Merit award to Indian Army Chief Gen. Bikram Singh

Mr Zaetz also requested US DoD not to honour senior Indian Army Officials until the MIA remains have been recovered. “The families of these men are extremely shocked and dismayed that the US Government honored Gen. Singh with these awards in full knowledge of the Indian Government’s continued unwillingness to live up to the promises it made to allow recovery of their loved ones.. We respectfully urge you to refrain from making any more awards to senior officers of the Indian Army until the Indian Government demonstrates its willingness to live up to agreements already in place permitting the recovery of the remains of our loved ones from territory of the Government of India, ” he added.

and below are the comments from the very people who've registered this protest:

Many, many thanks to P. Chacko Joseph, publisher of Frontier India, for this excellent article.

Our sincere thanks to Mr. Joseph and to Gary Zaetz for keeping the flames fanned. From the family of Donald A. Johnson, US Army Air Corp, lost 8-9-43 flying the hump in NE India – crashsite located and JPAC documented.

sraj · Post by **sraj** » 16 Dec 2013 22:22

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 31543.html
Gaurav Sawant New Delhi, December 16, 2013 | UPDATED 22:24 IST

We need to understand what is going on here:

39-year-old Dr Khobragade, a 1999 batch Indian Foreign Service (IFS) officer was on her way to drop her children to school when she was stopped by the police and handcuffed in full public view. A shocked, Dr Khobragade protested immediately saying she is a diplomat and enjoys immunity. But there was worse in store. She was handcuffed, taken to a police station where she was stripped and searched.