Indian Interests

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Dec 2012 07:00

G.Sarkar, Agree with you that meditation with pure heart on any symbol will lead to good. Our shastras also say that. For instance, Valmiki was told to meditate on "Mara!" which he repeated endlessly to say "Rama!".

However note emphasis on pure mind.

I doubt that the tweeter has a pure mind, when he finds ghosts every where!!!

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 27 Dec 2012 07:13

g.sarkar wrote:
johneeG wrote: First, one has to assume that christ(jesus? or someone else) is holy(according to Patanjali).
No not really. Patanjali tells us that the meditation is more important than the object of meditation.

Patanjali's Yoga philosophy is for the most part based on the contours of Sankhya Philosophy of Kapila (which generally does not reposit belief in the existence of God) however Patanjalis's Yoga Philosophy propounds a firm belief in the exist of a God ,who is to be the ultimate object of meditation and by meditating on him moksha could be achieved in this world itself.

So gautam ji the sutra you quote could be viewed as help in initial "practicing" of Yoga. Later when one could by control reach ekagra state of meditation, Iswara has to be the object of contemplation till the final stage (niruddha) is reached.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 27 Dec 2012 09:01

1.Ramanaji: The point that I was trying to make (that got lost in determining the holiness of Christ) is that the meditation practiced by the Christian orthodox schools will be accepted by the Yoga masters. Even though the Orthodox Christians will not accept the meditation and other concepts propagated by Hindus. As an example I gave an article from Spiegel, where a German minister was recently "crucified" for suggesting that God was gender neutral. In Hinduism God can be worshipped as male, female or as neutral. Such thoughts are not acceptable in Christianity. But do we need to care?
2. Liloji: I agree that it is commonly held that Yoga is considered as Sankhya with Ishwara.
Gautam

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 27 Dec 2012 09:03

Lilo wrote: Patanjali's Yoga philosophy is for the most part based on the contours of Sankhya Philosophy of Kapila (which generally does not reposit belief in the existence of God) however Patanjalis's Yoga Philosophy propounds a firm belief in the exist of a God ,who is to be the ultimate object of meditation and by meditating on him moksha could be achieved in this world itself.

So gautam ji the sutra you quote could be viewed as help in initial "practicing" of Yoga. Later when one could by control reach ekagra state of meditation, Iswara has to be the object of contemplation till the final stage (niruddha) is reached.

OT...

Lilo ji,

Ishwara is "optional" in Paatanjala Yoga. Yoga is based on Nirishwar Vaadi Saankhya philosophy (non-theistic Sankhya). Almost all of our sciences in Moksha, Artha, Kaama, Dharma aspects of life have origin in Sankhya. Be it Arthashastra, Ayurveda or others.

"Ishwar Pranidhaana" (going close to Ishwara) is one of the "tools" for the ultimate aim of "Chitta-Vritti Nirodha". There are other tools for achieving this goal and Patanjali acknowledges Ishwara Pranidhana (Bhakti) as one of the "tool". It does not matter whether Ishwara exists OR not, as long as that concept is used to restrict and channelize the tendencies of Chitta (vaguely translated as higher mind).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Dec 2012 10:07

sorry about the OT. This goes too far into religious philosophy. Once again, we should stop an dthink before we use common linguistic terms across cultures. Christian concept of "God" is not "ishwara", and Yoga - especially Patanjali concept of "ishwara" is not equal to Christianity's or Judaism's "God".

As Atriji correctly points out, Patanjali's acknowledges the "tool", and we can somehow try and fit the Judaeo-Christian version into a slot of Patanjali - but the door jams at the inequality of "God/Yhwh" and "Ishwara". Maybe this should be taken to GDF philosophy threads.

Having said that, some modern Christian theologians have probably retroactively modified the line about Christian meditation in linguistic and eccelsiatsical terms that is almost surely and obviously a defensive reaction against the spread of "Hindu" yoga. But the entire purpose is completely different and rather in the opposite direction to the Indic approach of looking at it.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 27 Dec 2012 10:47

Thanks Atri ji,
For making it more clear for me.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 27 Dec 2012 11:46

Atri ji, I took it to GDF: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1383114

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Dec 2012 20:42

TK Arun of the Economic Times is one the sickest minds I have ever come across... Says the government passed up on the opportunity to blame Hindutva for the culture of rape in Delhi !!! What kind of obnoxious retard would seek to pin the blame for the monstrous failings of a 'secular' government on its opposition ??

Courtiers vs Politicians

Politicians would recognise an opportunity at least when it falls on them, if not at a distance. For all political parties committed to the values of liberal democracy, the countrywide outrage over rape is an opportunity to challenge and undermine revaunchist, revivalist Hindutva, committed to Indian tradition that segregates women into goddess or whore based on chastity. Instead, the occupants of Raisina Hill have successfully turned public anger against themselves, beating up and detaining young protesters, projecting them, to boot, as urban upstarts unconcerned about the violence against women that rages in rural India.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 27 Dec 2012 22:38

Heightened use of rhetoric and deliberate provocation also suggests onset of desperation due to low demand...

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 27 Dec 2012 22:41

Except that there are too many UPA politicians making comments on rape, akin to those that sunk Romney's election with women voters.

Abhijit Mukherjee

President Pranab Mukherjee's son Abhijit stoked a major controversy by describing women participating in Delhi protests against gangrape of a student as 'highly dented and painted', triggering angry backlash.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 Dec 2012 03:00

Arjun wrote:TK Arun of the Economic Times is one the sickest minds I have ever come across... Says the government passed up on the opportunity to blame Hindutva for the culture of rape in Delhi !!! What kind of obnoxious retard would seek to pin the blame for the monstrous failings of a 'secular' government on its opposition ??

Many would do so. Is Hindutva's articulation of the role of women well understood? The issue of role of sexes as per Hindu culture and its political construct of Hindutva, is a crucial debate to have. The challenge for Hindutva is NOT to get entangled in the "equality" debates, which is the core of western universalism's stand point and instead argue this from the stand point of the "role" and "experiences" based approach that Hindus in their best enlightened ideals lookup to in personal and social spaces. It is important to have this Hindu view point well understood, which to me is inherently linked to Ashrama Dharma.

The lack of this understanding of a Hindu views has resulted in the Hindu code bills, which negated the centuries old practices of the Mitakshara and Dayabaga systems prevalent in the country in context of inheritance laws. These bills were made with the view that the traditional systems were not "fair" to women and hence sought to "reform" hindu practices. If Hindutva does not provide an alternative narrative then the default one - the western one - automatically wins.

The unsaid portion of these laws was that there was an inherent attempt to address some of the issues through the prism of western morality and western individualism at the cost of the Hindu family structure. These western laws are creating a havoc in the hindu family structure, the root of hindu society, along with western values seeped in society through education and what the idea of progress means today.

So to reiterate, the challenge for Hindutva is to articulate the role of women, through a dharmic view of and the role of women for a dharmic society, adjusted for todays world. This is a sensitive matter and the Jihad by equality centric activists should be responded to with counter rhetoric like the root of the disease is Islamic culture. Deflect the damn thing, if a real debate cannot be had.

There is enough data on both sides of the picture in western and Hindu society to have this debate and evaluate its pros and cons - in light of the objectives that each society seeks to achieve.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Dec 2012 05:09

^ what do you mean by "Role of Women"?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 Dec 2012 08:10

ShauryaT wrote:So to reiterate, the challenge for Hindutva is to articulate the role of women, through a dharmic view of and the role of women for a dharmic society, adjusted for todays world. This is a sensitive matter and the Jihad by equality centric activists should be responded to with counter rhetoric like the root of the disease is Islamic culture. Deflect the damn thing, if a real debate cannot be had.

'Hindutva' as a political philosophy, had nothing whatsoever to do with the Delhi incident....However, if we are to look for root causes - there is a particular culture in certain regions of India that perhaps needs to be rooted out. If at all the BJP as a political party needs to make a statement of intent on this issue - the only thing that needs to be reiterated is a zero tolerance policy for any kind of sexual harassment - whether it be innocuously worded as 'eve-teasing' or derogatory remarks, or as monstrous as the Delhi outrage.

It is very clear that TK Arun actually meant 'Hinduism' when he wrote 'Hindutva'. I have seen this jerk's articles for long - so there is no need to give this moron any undue importance...But in searching for root causes (if at all that is important) - the issue of what caused regional culture in certain areas to develop a medieval mindset is maybe relevant. Perhaps, given the location, the correct answer is - the corrosive effects of Islam.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 28 Dec 2012 13:22

>>So to reiterate, the challenge for Hindutva is to articulate the role of women, through a dharmic view of and the role of women for a dharmic society, adjusted for todays world.

It should then articulate the "role of man", should it not? Why specify one or the other at all? Who says its current articulation excludes women?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2012 04:39

Arjun wrote:TK Arun of the Economic Times is one the sickest minds I have ever come across... Says the government passed up on the opportunity to blame Hindutva for the culture of rape in Delhi !!! What kind of obnoxious retard would seek to pin the blame for the monstrous failings of a 'secular' government on its opposition ??

Courtiers vs Politicians

Politicians would recognise an opportunity at least when it falls on them, if not at a distance. For all political parties committed to the values of liberal democracy, the countrywide outrage over rape is an opportunity to challenge and undermine revaunchist, revivalist Hindutva, committed to Indian tradition that segregates women into goddess or whore based on chastity. Instead, the occupants of Raisina Hill have successfully turned public anger against themselves, beating up and detaining young protesters, projecting them, to boot, as urban upstarts unconcerned about the violence against women that rages in rural India.

The way the INC is acting I think the rape is linked to the highest corridors of power. At a minimum the MHA which runs Delhi Police is tainted with the blood of the victim. The rapists were on Delhi police hafta rolls at a minimum. I think these rouges workd for the politicians for such nonchalant behavior after the incident.

So TK Arun can seek shelter with those turds.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Dec 2012 05:12

JE Menon wrote:It should then articulate the "role of man", should it not? Why specify one or the other at all? Who says its current articulation excludes women?

Yes, role of man too should be defined as it always was. Both men and women had a common definition as Aryas. The recognition that both were purusha and enjoined to pursue the objectives of life in its full measure was recognized.

Why? This is a six trillion dollar question. I do not have answers but can only share my thoughts. If we manage to erase from our minds the ideological influences of the west, encoded in our constitution and the onslaughts of Islam, which are visible in the fact of partition and then ask this question, what I am left with is a largely Hindu view of our way of life. A life that seeks to achieve certain well defined objectives.

A reading of these ways encoded in our smritis, which in turn seek their backing from shrutis, corroborated with observations and practices of Hindu society indicate some things. These ways try to order society (premised on the fact that there is order in nature) to achieve certain objectives based on VarnaAshrma. The only way I could understand such a social order is through the roles a man and woman ought to play, in context of relationships, which form the backbone of family and social order, which in turn form the basis of societal order and laws. So, such roles were commonly defined in the recognition of the fact that beyond being individuals in a society, we have roles to play and these roles were governed and had the sanction of law supported by values taught and practiced.

To what degree these differences in roles stem from differences in biology or social conditioning is a matter of debate. To what degree changes in technology allow women to overcome some issues and changes and needs of society reflected in new orders is a matter of evolution. From my understanding, I can clearly see the issues our societal orders and role based approaches have created and also see the issues that stem from ignoring or trying to bypass these facts have created in western and now Indian society. The first victim has been the Hindu family. What our founding fathers did was “junk” ALL our accumulated learning – including the traditional understanding of the role of women. I am trying to understand why?

Not sure about the last part of your question, as we do not live under a dharmic or hindutva oriented constitution.

Disclaimer: Do not intend at any level to go into what women or men may or may not do. Also, no one has said this but by NO stretch of imagination intend to remotely justify or condemn the young soul fighting for her life.

Added: Just read that the victim has lost her life. Hope justice will be done soon.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Dec 2012 06:16

Never thought I'd say this, but seems to me young women are safest on the streets in India from unwanted attention if they cover up completely like Muslim women do.

I've noticed in Hyd several non-muslim women also wearing long headscarves and full sleeves when outdoors or riding 2-wheelers etc (ostensibly to keep the dust and grime off) but which offers additional protection and anonymity against unwanted male attention. outdoors.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Dec 2012 09:23

ShauryaT garu

In a family context, a woman can only be mother, sister, daughter, wife etc., and a man can only be father, brother, son, husband etc.,

In social context, the social role is what a person has to fulfill, be it child/student/worker/employer/businessperson/poltician etc., and is not differentiation based on the sex. A male/female king/queen is expected to rule, a male/female student is expected to honor teachers and pursue knowledge etc.,

So it is unnecessary splitting of hair, IMHO, to define social roles separately for sexes.

Hari ji,
Unfortunately that is a society slipping towards asuric consciousness. It may offer protection to women who cover up, but it adds very little value to the society.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 29 Dec 2012 09:42

Hari Seldon wrote:Never thought I'd say this, but seems to me young women are safest on the streets in India from unwanted attention if they cover up completely like Muslim women do.

Hari ji - that is a horrendous thought !!

Firstly, there are several parts of India that are not as backward as Delhi or areas of the North.

Secondly, lets not go anywhere near wanting to degrade women to such an extent as with Burkhas....As it is, many Indian airports are starting to look like they are in Arabia with increasing number of Burkha-clad Muslim women. Do you really want Indian women to start copying this repulsive habit ?

Indian women do NOT need to have to change - any change needs to come from the side of the men.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 29 Dec 2012 09:49

ramana wrote:The way the INC is acting I think the rape is linked to the highest corridors of power. At a minimum the MHA which runs Delhi Police is tainted with the blood of the victim. The rapists were on Delhi police hafta rolls at a minimum.

Sure, the rapists were on the hafta rolls.

‘Hafta diary’ helps cops zero in on rape bus

It was the corrupt practice of allowing transporters to illegally run their buses after-hours that helped the police zero in on the vehicle used in Sunday's gangrape, sources say.

A traffic policeman had reportedly recorded the registration number of the bus in a 'hafta' diary - a record of illegally-plying buses for which bribes have been paid for exemption of prosecution. That immunity from police, however, is seen as the sole reason the gangrape was not detected as no cop intercepted it while it circled the area slowly.

The cop identified the bus when the police relayed the description provided by the victims. It finally led the police to zero in on two transporters with Yadav as their surnames. The bus was culled from a list of 370 chartered buses and the owner Dinesh Yadav was picked up by the police from his Noida Sector 62 residence and brought to verify the description of driver Ram Singh and also identify him after his arrest.

The very fact that the bus was plying illegally for hours on Sunday night with impunity suggests the active collusion of traffic police personnel.

Yadav has contracted the bus to two schools in Noida and South Delhi. He used the bus for picking up passengers after evening and this could not have happened without the connivance of certain personnel in the Delhi Traffic Police which facilitated the illegal operation with rogue driver Ram Singh at the wheels.

His younger brother Mukesh, who allegedly drove the bus around when the 23-year-old girl was subjected to a near unprecedented degree of brutality, had told the police: "mera bhai sharab peene ke baad janwar ban jaata hai" (My brother turns into a beast after consuming liquor).

The entry diary (used by traffic policemen to collect protection money from transporters) gave the exact registration number of the bus which was later corroborated by a police informer who identified the rapists on the basis of the description provided by the male friend of the girl who was also thrashed mercilessly.

The one fact that has left many red faces in Delhi Police is the sheer brazenness of the accused in circling the same stretch multiple times on the fateful night. After brutalizing the girl and throwing her out of the moving bus alongwith her male companion, Mukesh, brought the bus to the same stand at Munirka. Even while the rape was being committed, the bus passed unchallenged by cops on the road.

Mukesh had admitted before the police that he was instructed by his brother to drive slowly while others took turns in raping the girl.

She and her friend were thrown out of the bus during the second round when the bus was negotiating the U-turn below the Mahipalpur flyover. The bus entered Munirka area for the third time after the gangrape and it was taken to Noida by Ram Singh where the bus was washed to erase evidence.

Senior Delhi Police officers admit that there were lapses on part of the Traffic Police that failed to track down buses running illegally after evening hours in the city. Knee-jerk reaction has started to cover the tracks but the National Capital has been shamed, an official said pleading anonymity.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Dec 2012 10:06

Arjun wrote:Hari ji - that is a horrendous thought !![...]

Shanti, Arjun bhai. I'm not endorsing Burkhas anymore than the next jingo here. Am reporting on a reality I see around me. Many (kafir) young women who need to travel outdoors are using (multicolored and not black) scarves, chadors etc to keep off the dust, grime and unwanted attention away. Once indoors (in colleges, malls, offices, homes), they are back to their normal selves only.

I think its a sensible given the circumstances.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Dec 2012 10:12

The burqa will be safer not because it covers up the body - but because it stands for a culture/minority which can force the gov to act superfast against the culprits. Or that if actions are not taken promptly - law and order situation might deteriorate. Note also that if identities which are not in the golden list - threaten deterioration of law and order - then the gov can unleash its full force to tackle such deterioration.

Unfortunately its the identity represented by the burqa that has a special status in Indian regime protection list - and that will be the cause of the protection. Not covering up.

One only has to look at rape frequency in shuttlecock countries [have to quadruple perhaps the reported figures becuase of the heavy bias against reporting of rapes in purelands] to see that burqa is no protection at all.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 29 Dec 2012 10:14

ShauryaT wrote:These ways try to order society (premised on the fact that there is order in nature) to achieve certain objectives based on VarnaAshrma.

Is there anything at all in the Shrutis that indicates a desire to order society ? I would be surprised if there was any...My understanding of Hinduism is that it is fundamentally a religion of 'personal philosophy' and spiritual striving and not of 'social identity' or even aimed at creating any 'social order'.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Dec 2012 10:17

brihaspati wrote:The burqa will be safer not because it covers up the body - but because it stands for a culture/minority which can force the gov to act superfast against the culprits. Or that if actions are not taken promptly - law and order situation might deteriorate. Note also that if identities which are not in the golden list - threaten deterioration of law and order - then the gov can unleash its full force to tackle such deterioration.

Unfortunately its the identity represented by the burqa that has a special status in Indian regime protection list - and that will be the cause of the protection. Not covering up.

One only has to look at rape frequency in shuttlecock countries [have to quadruple perhaps the reported figures becuase of the heavy bias against reporting of rapes in purelands] to see that burqa is no protection at all.

+1

Burkha is the symbol of exoneration of paisachikness in males. It denotes that females are the reason for all male paisachik behavior.

Once agreed upon, the males can go to any extent - shape, color, extent what not on the Burkhas to do what they do best.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Dec 2012 10:25

The first culprits in thsi are the political class - the party systema nd leadership - which virtually protect such rapists in many cases out of electoral and muscle-preservation considerations. The cadre - or associates/friends/networks of the cadre too use such connections to get away after committing things.

Now the gov and congress leaders are putting up prompt and shrill and profound promises. But they have been sitting over on this in Delhi - and I know that women complained, from my acquiantances , while I was in Delhi in the late 90's, and when I visited it often before and after on org connections. People whos efaces I now see on TV channels, shedding croc tears, and their juniors I know personally - all have a share in the responsibility for this continued atrocity. They and their mosahibs and courtiers and lackeys have protected their courtiers and lackeys in turn down the feeding chain for decades.

In a certain level of decisionmakers, the proposal was brought that at least half of Delhi's police be women, that women officers fully armed lethally with shoot at sight orders be put out at night, in singnificant numbers on night patrols, that sufficient women officers be present on night duty at each station, that more women be brought in as drivers of public transport, that daaru-theks be closed compulsorily earlier, that more cars be stopped and checked not for hafta and bribes but for breathalyzer tests. More cameras, speed cameras as well as surveillance ones, police copter flights at night, and more light - for ishwar's sake!

The proposal for more lethally armed women officers and women drivers was simply laughed away. That women only patrols at night was dismissed as unsafe for the "women officers".

I still wish, if ever my "kind" gets to power, to turn internal policing almost etirely over to women. And keep more of men in the army at the borders.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Dec 2012 10:33

The person who "laughed it away" would know if he/she/it read this post. Also perhaps who proposed it. If you are reading it, dear leader, are you feeling ashamed anywhere, in a tiny small way even?

No personal anger, just a great anguish. You know I am a straight talker. There is still time to change.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Dec 2012 10:43

Students and youth will not be able to sustain what needs political persistence. Soon they will be drawn back to colleges and unis. Thats what the parties are calculating on. Then their respective student fronts will quietly manipulate and take over.

I would urge them to form a platform, even on a social-network basis - to maintain the momentum. Convert this into an electoral issue - frame outline laws, put up proposals. Run at least online referendums. Bring out an online newspaper. It will not reach many in the non-urban areas, but the words and ideas can at least spread out from those who have access to the net - to those who havent, by word of mouth - one of the best possible ways of propagation.

The old order of politics needs to go. We have to wait until by natural laws of demographics the current minority of overall electorate - grow dominant in proportion in time, if they can draw in new youth who will join the age bracket in the decades to come. But the old order must go. Old way of politics must go. Old way of thinking - the legacy of imperialism from the west of our country - must go.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 29 Dec 2012 11:56

Must say the BJP reaction is way more mature than the Congress one would have been had the tables been turned: India should feel ashamed: Arun Jaitley

I am a little conflicted though...is the BJP reaction a sign of maturity or a sign of foolhardiness ?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Dec 2012 11:59

^^ Its foolhardiness. And the COng actions are explained by rule-hard-iness. Only.

Am glad the BJP has kept out of the limelight in these protests. "When the enemy is busy self-destructing, don't interrupt", confuseus says.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Dec 2012 15:27

One thing i came across about one of the scum Ram Singh Thakur, age 33 and 2 years ago his wife had died. This scum looks like he's done this rape kind of thing before the way he went by it. Has anyone followed up or got a link about his wife's death. It has to be some unnatural cause. I think that aspect should be looked into too.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Dec 2012 20:16

Arjun wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:These ways try to order society (premised on the fact that there is order in nature) to achieve certain objectives based on VarnaAshrma.
Is there anything at all in the Shrutis that indicates a desire to order society ? I would be surprised if there was any...My understanding of Hinduism is that it is fundamentally a religion of 'personal philosophy' and spiritual striving and not of 'social identity' or even aimed at creating any 'social order'.

Hinduism has always been practiced as a complete way of life. The segmentation of "personal" from "social" and "public" is a modern era phenomena. Hinduism aims for a religious life in ALL its dimensions and hence public law was never immune from them. The idea of secular life is an entirely modern pheonomena.

There are varied interpretations of what the shruti texts mean - but largely they are high guidance points not given the status of law. The truth of the matter gets clear when you pick up a smriti/shastra - which acted as law books for their periods in a region. Ordering society was its key tenet and its most fundamental goals stands out. Now, this is not all that bad, in context of the objectives that society had. Some laws were certainly draconian sounding, like our section 66A of the IT act. This is where context and applicability become important. But creating order through division of society and roles was the way it did so. There was a certain harmony to it understood only from the prism of VarnaAshrama and Purusharthas and values of society. These objective and orders did go wrong, why is a matter of debate. The question is, was junking it and importing some other value system wholesale was the answer?

A definition of these roles alone for sexes would not make sense, it has to be done in light of what a Hindu society seeks to achieve.

RamaY: The rights and duties of a son towards his mother and vice versa, through the Ashramas, if not executed creates social order issues for society. Husband-Wife duties, are no longer enshrined in law. The concept of a "free will" divorce is fairly alien to Hindu ethos. Some rights for women, which all point towards how to achieve and structure a divorce and a share in property (post divorce) are encoded but not duties that promote the institution of marriage. The issues such a structure create, can be seen in its full glory in the societies of the west today and increasingly in India too. Personal law is not immune from social governance, as evidenced by the separate personal laws for muslims, while hindu laws were junked in the name of social reform to adopt western laws and values.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Dec 2012 02:47

ShauryaT wrote: RamaY: The rights and duties of a son towards his mother and vice versa, through the Ashramas, if not executed creates social order issues for society. Husband-Wife duties, are no longer enshrined in law. The concept of a "free will" divorce is fairly alien to Hindu ethos. Some rights for women, which all point towards how to achieve and structure a divorce and a share in property (post divorce) are encoded but not duties that promote the institution of marriage. The issues such a structure create, can be seen in its full glory in the societies of the west today and increasingly in India too. Personal law is not immune from social governance, as evidenced by the separate personal laws for muslims, while hindu laws were junked in the name of social reform to adopt western laws and values.

ShauryaT garu,

This is the reason why I questioned the validity of Secularism and even the constipation of India in it's current form. The whole idea of "India" is on false identity, false destiny and false tryst (of all the times it was decided that the auspicious time is when half of the nation is donated to an asuric ideology while leaving the second half in the hands of another false identity); it was a cruel joke on Bharat to say the least.

Since we have to work with what we have, we need to have a open debate on everything that goes now as the absolute - be it the constipation, political class, governance model, laws etc.,

We should ask the women of India to define their role, given that it adds to the dharmic quotient. Let them comeup with the best way they can support it. And we have honor whatever they say. In the beginning this might include abolition of institution of marriage.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 30 Dec 2012 06:55

ShauryaT wrote:Hinduism has always been practiced as a complete way of life. The segmentation of "personal" from "social" and "public" is a modern era phenomena. Hinduism aims for a religious life in ALL its dimensions and hence public law was never immune from them. The idea of secular life is an entirely modern pheonomena.

I am aware that this is the SC-sanctioned view of many....but my own preference is to view things in a different way.

The Vedics clearly practiced a distinctive 'way of life' with their own specific viewpoints on all matters under the sun. The question is do I use the term 'Hinduism' for this entire package or do I use different terms for different parts of this package. 'Hinduism' itself or even 'religion' are all modern-day concepts - these terms need to be fitted on, as best as possible, to the actuality of the past. To my mind it makes far more sense to define Hinduism as the 'spiritual' part of their enquiry- which includes all the various Margas for Moksha directly derived from the Vedas.

Ancient 'Hindus' were wont to look at everything as a science or enquiry - so there were obviously a number of smritis and manuscripts concerning law, economics, statecraft, medicine and sundry subjects...But would I want to include all those under the rubric of 'Hinduism'? I don't think so - under 'traditional Indian systems of knowledge' perhaps but not under the umbrella of Hinduism. There were divergent viewpoints and manuscripts on many of these topics - and none had the status of any kind of 'dogma' or necessarily regarded as unchangeable truth.

So while ordering of society was a subject of enquiry in smritis and by these 'systems of knowledge' - it wouldn't figure as part of Hinduism per se, which was focused more on personal philisophy.

There are varied interpretations of what the shruti texts mean - but largely they are high guidance points not given the status of law. The truth of the matter gets clear when you pick up a smriti/shastra - which acted as law books for their periods in a region.

But there were multiple smritis...there is nothing to indicate that shruti + any smriti is to be considered as a package deal. Only shruti was critical - while smritis could change.

The question is, was junking it and importing some other value system wholesale was the answer?

Agree with you..but I would phrase it as junking parts of our traditional knowledge system, not as junking Hinduism.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 30 Dec 2012 10:22

RamaY wrote:We should ask the women of India to define their role, given that it adds to the dharmic quotient. Let them comeup with the best way they can support it. And we have honor whatever they say. In the beginning this might include abolition of institution of marriage.

I can only pray and hope that this dharmic advice of women has inspiration of accomplished dharmic women, such as Anasuya.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 31 Dec 2012 00:33

Arjun ji: I think you are at a different plane of understanding than mine and we would be talking past each other. However, terms used need agreed definitions. Hinduism or Sanatan Dharma inform Hindutva - a social and political ideology, as first espoused by Savarkar. The question is not what Hindusim is, which is a topic on its own and often deviates us from the purpose at hand. The question is what is Hindutva? An understanding of Hindutva to me is impossible without our dharma smirits. I will also say this that Hindutva is guided not just by SD but by ALL dharmic sampradayas that have sprung in Bharat. If you, in your judgment would like to segregate Hindutva from Hinduism, then you are at the same place, where the preamble of our constitution is. The rest of the constitution is an exposition of the pre-amble in a sense.

I am a little conservative, when it comes to this understanding of Hindutva, that am unwilling to junk our knowledge systems, objectives, ideas, laws and experiences as unsuitable for the world we live in to find articulation in current law and modes of justice. While accepting that there were errors in our ancient ways, am unwilling to throw the baby out with the bathwater for these errors.

If you have not undertaken this journey of understanding the smritis and dharma shastras, here is a starting point and as you dig into each link and explore many of the works and get copies of actual books on each smriti and multiple commentaries and discussion on the same with various well informed, either your judgment will change or you already have a deep understanding, which I will request that you share. I myself have touched only the tip of the iceberg.

Edited: URL.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 31 Dec 2012 10:56

Atri wrote: Vision statement of hindutva - Paritranay Sadhunam, Vinashayacha dushkritam Dharma Sansthapanarthay..... This defines and buttresses the Dharma OF, BY, FOR Sajjana approach.. All actions falling in Artha-Purushartha's domain to protect dharma (as said in previous statement) is Hindutva. may be we need to find appropriate name for it.

There is one more statement which was "revealed" to me, the statement I use on my blog - Aatma Vimochanarthaya, Bharatasya Vardhanay, Dharma Sansthapanarthay. I was told by powers that be that these three steps are related and relevant in this order. Without Vimochana there cannot be vardhana..

Vimochana means "Unharnessing".. We need to deracinate ourselves from the imposed aarthik and dharmik Sanskaras in past 1500 years. Once we do that our and India's "Vardhana" (growth, not swelling. What India is experiencing post 1990 is "swelling" for most of the part and not growth) will not set in at optimum pace. Without India "growing", Dharma cannot be installed.

Like Islam and communism, Dharma is a global concept. Rather Dharma is the oldest "Global concept" and "globalizing force" known to mankind. Although originated and revealed in India, it is for entire existence. India cannot be Dharmik when rest of world is Adharmik. It is duty of Sajjana (also known as "Aarya") to make world Dharmik, to install Vishwadharma (world of sajjana people, for Sajjana people, by Sajjana people) by destroying and removing Araavna (non-liberal, aasurik people and memes)..

We have discussed all this in deracination dhaga..

Atri ji: You have done more to enlighten my thoughts on these matters than many public figures and learned who talk about Hindutva. My complaint was against them. For you however, there is no rest

, for the concepts that you have explained so well need more political definition and structure and certainly propagation.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Dec 2012 19:11

THe real purpose behind the cash transfer scheme.

10 lakh kirana shops to be backbone of UPA’s direct cash transfer scheme

he government has decided to involve these stores across the country giving them micro ATMs and a commission of 3% on the value of cash transactions.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 31 Dec 2012 20:55

Bribing the small kirana owners on behalf of the big retailers?
GOI kills three birds with one stone, keeps the votes of kirana shop owners, tom-toms the DTS, and also gets to acts as Dalaal and collect fees for "Bhadvaa giri" (Election Funds) from the big boys.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Jan 2013 13:55

Nagarjun writes that Sarat Chandra Chatterjee deserved Nobel prize more than Tagore because he was a better writer. Thoughts?

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 01 Jan 2013 23:18

SriSriRavishankar speaking on Bollywood -Drug Industry - NCP, prajarajyam etc.