India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 16 Dec 2013 22:30

SSridhar wrote:No country would like its diplomats to be handcuffed and arrested, whatever be the situation. This is purely unacceptable. Let us not bring politics into this or her 'supposed' tainted past without really knowing the full story. A country that calls India as a great friend should have simply asked GoI to recall her if it really felt that she was in serious violation of laws.

Only explanation I can muster is that she must be a one hell of a liability to American Interests. Can anyone dig her roles and responsibilities apart from what is there in MEA website?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Dec 2013 22:49

I think GOI puts too much faith on Vienna Convention and other treaties while US violates it repeatedly wrt to Indian diplomats. From Ambassadors downwards are subjected to 'treatment'.

After PVNR's visit in 1993 his personal bodyguard who carries arms was pulled over and give rough treatmetn just as a reminder.

China found US respects tit for tat only.

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 16 Dec 2013 23:30

ramana wrote:I think GOI puts too much faith on Vienna Convention and other treaties while US violates it repeatedly wrt to Indian diplomats. From Ambassadors downwards are subjected to 'treatment'.

After PVNR's visit in 1993 his personal bodyguard who carries arms was pulled over and give rough treatmetn just as a reminder.

China found US respects tit for tat only.

And you cant really grow a pair and do any tit-for-tat when 'Khan's' already holding them and squeezing tight whenever GoI steps out of line. Our politicos and babus are already greatly compromised and while I am sure the khans are not so clean themselves, we dont have much we can twist them with.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Dec 2013 23:37

Not attaching too much value to it , still
...Meira Kumar declines to meet US delegation

NEW DELHI: In a snub, Lok Sabha Speaker Meira Kumar and national security adviser Shivshankar Menon on Monday cancelled their meeting with a US Congressional delegation to protest the arrest and handcuffing of an Indian diplomat in New York last week.

"The speaker has declined to meet the US delegation, comprising Republican and Democrat members, as a sign of displeasure over the treatment meted out to India's deputy consul general in New York," a source told IANS.

The NSA too cancelled his meeting with the US delegation over the arrest and handcuffing of Devyani Khobragade who was charged last week with visa fraud and making false statements.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Dec 2013 23:44

The best option for US now is to declare her persona non grata and send her back. Instead they want to make a spectacle of her and India.

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 16 Dec 2013 23:50

But the question really is "Why now and why in this fashion?" - we did see a few possible reasons in this forum itself, Headley extradition, displeasure at specific deals/negotiations to other activities above and beyond consular functions, but none that seems plausible.

On the other hand the simple and exigent explanation could be "They simply could get away with it". While this leaves one dissatisfied with the capricious nature of it, could very well be the reason?

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 17 Dec 2013 00:08

Diplomat Devyani strip-searched, India snubs US team
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 488890.cms

The Defence Minister of India was strip searched. Now Ms. Devyani was strip searched. Unless India slaps uncle sam hard on his face this perversion will continue.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2013 00:17

The current MEA Secy Sujatha Singh was on official visit just last week. The US could have brought it up with her. Instead they arrested the junior diplomat.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 17 Dec 2013 00:47

chaanakya wrote:Not attaching too much value to it , still

We should attach some value to it. NSA also did not meet the delegation. Of course, Miera Kumar being an elected representative of Indians and of a cabinet minister rank carries more weight.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 17 Dec 2013 01:09

ramana wrote:The best option for US now is to declare her persona non grata and send her back. Instead they want to make a spectacle of her and India.

I agree. I think what happened was that when the diplomat had her buddies back in Delhi file charges against the servant, it hit somebody's sore spot concerning domestic abuse and the DA had the diplomat arrested.

The problem with sending the diplomat back to Delhi is that the servant will never get her money that she originally filed for and plus the servant will still be arrested when she gets back to India. Either way, the servant loses.

Oh well.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 17 Dec 2013 01:29

TSJones wrote:Domestic abuse and human trafficking has become a major issue in the US. Like it or not, people from India have become one of the hot points in this issue. Human trafficking and domestic abuse receives a lot of public scrutiny in the news.

It seems to me the police should have been knowledgable about diplomatic immunity laws or at least checked with the district attorney. You never can tell about what the police might do or what they might act on. I've seen raids conducted on the flimsiest of excuses. Then other times you can't get them to act.

TSJones-ji. While I read your postings (on space related stuff) with respect I would like to request you to substantiate the part I have bolded above. and I mean substantiate with official statistics and not anecdotes.

I agree that human trafficking is a BIG issue. America is currently suffering from one of the biggest cases of human trafficking ever known to mankind, it was called slavery for the blacks and indentured labor for the whites. Ofcourse the native americans were crushed under the volume of people trafficked into America. That much is fact and can be substantiated with mountains of evidence.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 17 Dec 2013 02:04

It definitely is a problem that is all too frequently ignored.

http://www.fairus.org/issue/human-traff ... gal-aliens

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 17 Dec 2013 02:04

It definitely is a problem that is all too frequently ignored.

http://www.fairus.org/issue/human-traff ... gal-aliens

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 17 Dec 2013 02:11

SanjayKumar ji,

I completely understand that it is a BIG current day issue and it does need to be sorted out.

But I wanted some numbers about Indians being "hot points" in this issue. Have their been any significant number arrests or convictions related to this crimes from the Indian community? The link you provided has no info on that. So I was just scratching my head on why we Indians became one of the "hot points" of this issue. Why and how?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Dec 2013 02:19

Don't confuse trafficking and abuse with what happened here. It seems to be a case of payment terms dispute.

In any case the lady has diplomatic immunity. Far worse offences have been ignored. Something does not fit here. If true that she was strip searched etc., seems like a classic display of displeasure about something specific directed particularly at her and through her to India. Let's see how this develops

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2013 02:29

TSJones wrote:
ramana wrote:The best option for US now is to declare her persona non grata and send her back. Instead they want to make a spectacle of her and India.
I agree. I think what happened was that when the diplomat had her buddies back in Delhi file charges against the servant, it hit somebody's sore spot concerning domestic abuse and the DA had the diplomat arrested.

The problem with sending the diplomat back to Delhi is that the servant will never get her money that she originally filed for and plus the servant will still be arrested when she gets back to India. Either way, the servant loses.

Oh well.

Dont bleed for her Argentina!

The servant is most likely in the witness protection program and enjoying Mac burgers(what to do there is budget crisis) while seeing her employer arrested and given full treatment.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 17 Dec 2013 02:30

JEM sir, Exactly!

How can the unsubstantiated claim about Indians being "hot points" in trafficking and abuse justify throwing the law to the wind and throwing the book at her for what looks like a payment dispute. This could (and usually would) have been settled out of court.

I suspect another angle here. NY cops are known to be vicious racists (stop and frisk program etc) and cops in the US are getting increasingly militarized with an "us vs them" mentality. For them any brown person == any other brown person. A brown person needs lesser amount of evidence to be punished for a crime than does a white person. I suspect that the unsubstantiated claim of Indians being the "hot points" here points to the same mentality.

Occam's Razor: This looks like a gaffe from NYPD. Although it is highly plausible that it was done with knowledge from FoggyBottom and co to send a message to India.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 17 Dec 2013 02:33

ramana wrote:
TSJones wrote: h well.

Dont bleed for her Argentina!

The servant is most likely in the witness protection program and enjoying Mac burgers(what to do there is budget crisis) while seeing her employer arrested and given full treatment.

If she is smart enough she might apply for asylum too citing possibility of getting harmed if returned to India. She must have had some smart legal understanding/advice to go to this extent. Wonder if someone from EJ-land is involved.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 17 Dec 2013 02:37

LokeshC wrote:
TSJones wrote:Domestic abuse and human trafficking has become a major issue in the US. Like it or not, people from India have become one of the hot points in this issue. Human trafficking and domestic abuse receives a lot of public scrutiny in the news.

It seems to me the police should have been knowledgable about diplomatic immunity laws or at least checked with the district attorney. You never can tell about what the police might do or what they might act on. I've seen raids conducted on the flimsiest of excuses. Then other times you can't get them to act.
TSJones-ji. While I read your postings (on space related stuff) with respect I would like to request you to substantiate the part I have bolded above. and I mean substantiate with official statistics and not anecdotes.

I agree that human trafficking is a BIG issue. America is currently suffering from one of the biggest cases of human trafficking ever known to mankind, it was called slavery for the blacks and indentured labor for the whites. Ofcourse the native americans were crushed under the volume of people trafficked into America. That much is fact and can be substantiated with mountains of evidence.

It seems to me that the victims are a lot of times Indian not ncessarily the perpertrators. There were three Indian women who were abused by a Kuwati diplomat. Although I do recall an Indian couple who charges filed against them in Illinois for domestic abuse.

And according to this article, it is the US that winds up taking care of the situation while the diplomat goes scot free.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=7672967

I don't see what US slavery past has to do with what is happening currently today. The US fought a civil war over slavery although the south tries to couch it in terms of "states rights". We suffered the most dead of any war we have ever fought since.

In my previous post of this topic I have pointed out where the US is wrong over illegal immigration and what we need to do about it. But it has nothing to do with our slavery past and everything to do with greed for cheap wages and no benefits and everybody particpates in it from corporations to government to school systems to private employers for house help.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 17 Dec 2013 02:45

One word(?) - H1B.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 17 Dec 2013 02:54

TSJones-ji.

I see, so we Indians become "hot points" of an issue because of an instance of one couple abusing someone. Hence all of us should be cavity searched for domestic abuse. If thats the level of generalization I would like to create one on my own: A white person is a "hot point" of being a mass murderer, there are so many evidences in recent history.

EDIT: My point about bringing slavery was that it was the one of the biggest level of human trafficking and abuse and was committed by the privileged whites. So why are they not the "hot points". The civil war point is moot, because it was followed up with the Jim Crow era of open racism which was ended with the civil rights movement. After which the open racism and open abuse went underground and became latent racism and abuse which continues to this day.

BTW: The civil war was fought because Abraham Lincoln was worried about the economic implications of Southern dominance over the North. He had little concern for the slaves or their status. We can argue all day about it, but basically what has happened is the History has been "whitewashed" selectively to make him appear to be against slavery due to a principled stand. His stand against slavery was not due to concern for slaves, it was due to concern of the very existence of the Union (due to the southern dominance).

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 17 Dec 2013 03:12

The link I gave above is from a 'controlled immigration' site and tellingly omits any reference to abuse of Latinos by whites. Unfortunately America has a long history of abusing wetbacks and Mexican maids. For a wider perspective.

http://www.slideshare.net/mbeach2/domes ... -workforce

I am not sure what the status is now, but I was very disappointed to note that the California governor vetoed legislation protecting domestic workers. If that is the case in California, what is happening in Texas or Arizona.

TSJ, I am not shooting at the US from the Latino shoulder. I really do believe America is better than this.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 17 Dec 2013 03:48

sanjaykumar wrote:The link I gave above is from a 'controlled immigration' site and tellingly omits any reference to abuse of Latinos by whites. Unfortunately America has a long history of abusing wetbacks and Mexican maids. For a wider perspective.

http://www.slideshare.net/mbeach2/domes ... -workforce

I am not sure what the status is now, but I was very disappointed to note that the California governor vetoed legislation protecting domestic workers. If that is the case in California, what is happening in Texas or Arizona.

TSJ, I am not shooting at the US from the Latino shoulder. I really do believe America is better than this.

I am telling you the hypocrisy of the hiring of illegal workers in the US is unbelieveable. The reason being primarily economic. But it's not just the conservatives that are doing it, it's the liberals too. *Everyone* is in on it and it stinks.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 17 Dec 2013 03:52

so, since we feel the need to justify the case of Devyani, are we tacitly saying that this behavior against Indian diplomats by US is acceptable?

all the "abuse", "domestic abuse", "slavery", "illegals" has nothing to do with this issue. it is a simple matter of an Indian diplomat not being given the due rights of her diplomatic immunity. that's the issue here. would it be OK if Indian police did something similar to US diplomats?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 17 Dec 2013 04:34

devesh sir,

If we were a self-respecting nation, it would be followed up by something strong along those lines. But like someone said above, we have a bunch of uncle-Tom MUTUs on the helm of our internal-affairs who are more than willing to co-opt everything for the gora admi.

In that sense the fact that Devayani is politically very well connected to the top makes it very interesting. It should make them realize Amrika is not all what its made out to be. For someone who has not completely sold his soul to uncle sam, it should be a reality check to the Indian elites on what Amrika really is

.

Already Salman Khurshid and co have started growing a pair. It indicates some level of understanding of things.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 17 Dec 2013 05:39

Strip searching... All decency breached.

Classic cowboy behaviour, shoot first and then aim. Doesn't look like professionals, but bullies. Bragging rights that they could strip search an unarmed mother. Is it any different from paki behavior?

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 17 Dec 2013 07:29

Are these racists who are depicting a payment dispute as "domestic abuse" ? Oh Vinayaka !

Teacher to student: You can't be Santa -- you're black!

The family of an African-American high school student in New Mexico says he's crushed after a teacher questioned why he was wearing Santa garb during a school holiday dress-up day last week, CNN affiliate KOAT reported.

The teacher told Christopher Rougier, a freshman at Cleveland High School, that he couldn't be Santa because Santa is white, the student's father, Michael, told KOAT.

Writer Aisha Harris, who is black, wrote about growing up wondering why Santa was depicted as a white man, and argued for something less definitive: a penguin.

In a widely viewed segment reacting to Harris' piece, Fox anchor Megyn Kelly said on air: "And, by the way, for all of you kids watching at home, Santa just is white, but this person is arguing maybe we should also have a black Santa. But, you know, Santa is what he is. And so, you know, we're just debating this because someone wrote about it, kids."

Harris said Kelly's comments are part of the reason she felt the need to provoke thought about Santa's race.

"To me, (it) just spoke to the reason why I wrote the piece, is that there are a lot of people out there who automatically assume that Santa must be white and there's no way -- it's laughable that he could be anything else," Harris said Sunday on CNN's "Reliable Sources."
"The point I was trying to make was that I think that we have, the world has changed a lot over the last 50, 100 years, and Santa Claus is a fictional character," Harris continued.

"He is nothing like the original historical figure he was based off of anymore," she said. "We've kind of evolved him into this magical mythical figure, and for kids, I think it's important that they don't have to feel necessarily bogged down that Santa is always white, and that's the way he should be."

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Dec 2013 08:32

Has no one asked the obvious question here - what is our eunuch GOI doing in this? Dossiers, complains, summons? What else.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 17 Dec 2013 11:20

According to the US, Raymond Davis had immunity, but Ms. Khobragade did not. The problem is that India gets carried away when it thinks US is a friendly posting. It is not. If Ms. Khobragade took her posting in NY like her posting in Islamabad, things would have been different.
Gautam

habal · Post by **habal** » 17 Dec 2013 11:27

Do they take their nannies/maids to Pakistan ??

US has this constant mindset, that they would like to make a Libya/Iraq/Syria out of a normal 'socialist-type' third-world non-Christian country. Diplomats who are just around to have a good time, should not be posted to US, it's a potential enemy country from all angles. Like how would people in Iraq/Libya today view US. It's not surprising why there are no polls these days to record those views. Also a lot of people of such countries who are naturalized citizens of US are potential Ahmed Chalabis and George Sabras, this needs utmost caution and a keen antenna to deal with. Not a comfort posting by any stretch of imagination when you constantly look over for IEDs.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 17 Dec 2013 11:48

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2013 11:59

Breaking News: India is reviewing functioning of US Consular Officers in India. Asks all US Consular ID cards to be returned to GoI.

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 17 Dec 2013 12:04

The folks in the State Department have messed up this time - they have basically ensured that CONgress which was so pliant so far is also turned against them - with CONgress against them, NaMo not exactly in their favour, and Turd Front which is naturally against them, US has ensured that the entire Indian political spectrum has turned against them. So good luck to US SD and its government for making enemies out of a so called strategic ally, great work indeed!

What can India do?: Apart from symbolic things, nothing much in the short term. In the long term, US may have just lost a captive market and an important ally in this region. All India has to do is become very very transactional with the US (we still need the outsourcing business, we still need the H1B visas, we still need those GE engines for our LCA, don't we?) and continue to embark on its journey for progress. If we get this right, in another 15 - 20 years time, India will simply not have to care for other nations.

In the end, to repeat what Dr Kalam had said: Strength respects strength. India is weak currently and it has to undergo this nonsense until such time that we are able to demonstrate our power (economic as well as military).

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2013 12:06

g.sarkar wrote:India gets carried away when it thinks US is a friendly posting. It is not. If Ms. Khobragade took her posting in NY like her posting in Islamabad, things would have been different.

This incident from the 'friendly' US must have been a rude shock to GoI. Handcuff, strip search, arrest from the school etc. are simply unacceptable. Period. These cannot be 'explained' away by US or its apologists. I think India must have acted disproportionately strongly when George Fernandes or Abdul Kalam etc. were harassed at US airports. US, like China, reacts differently when encountered strongly. Otherwise, its actions would become more and more arrogant.

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 17 Dec 2013 12:09

There was/is a gay US diplomat in Delhi. If he is still in India, may be it is time to apply Sec. 377 to him.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Dec 2013 12:43

from twitter:

@narendramodi
Refused to meet the visiting USA delegation in solidarity with our nation, protesting ill-treatment meted to our lady diplomat in USA.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2013 12:48

Shinde, Rahul & Modi Refuse to Meet American Delegation - ToI

India on Tuesday hardened its stance further against the US for the humiliation meted out to its deputy consul general in New York Devyani Khobragade with Union home minister Sushilkumar Shinde and Congress vice-president Rahul Gandhi refusing to meet a visiting US congressional delegation.

Home ministry officials said Shinde is busy in Parliament and, hence, he will not be in a position to meet the American delegation.

However, the home minister's programme, which was prepared on Monday evening, had clearly mentioned the scheduled meeting at 5pm.

Officials said the meeting was cancelled on Tuesday morning.

Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi has also refused to meet the visiting US delegation.

"Refused to meet the visiting USA delegation in solidarity with our nation, protesting ill-treatment meted to our lady diplomat in USA," tweeted the BJP's prime ministerial candidate.

Meanwhile, India has asked US to return all ID cards issued to their consular officers posted in the country, the PTI reported quoting government sources.

On Monday, Lok Sabha Speaker Meira Kumar and NSA Shivshankar Menon had refused to meet the delegation in retaliation against the US move.

Sources confirmed that the government made it a point to convey to the delegation that the Speaker was not going to receive them because she had been deeply troubled by the manner in which Khobragade, who is accused of visa fraud, had been dealt with by the US authorities.

The five-member delegation was led by Congressman George Holding, Representative for North Carolina's 13th congressional district, who serves on the foreign affairs committee and judiciary committee.

The four other Congressmen are Pete Olson, David Schweikert, Robert Woodall and Madeliene Bordallo.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 17 Dec 2013 12:51

11:47 India asks US diplomats across India to return ID cards: The rare instance where the Congress and the BJP see eye-to-eye. Narendra Modi has followed Rahul Gandhi and Sushilkumar Shinde and has snubbed the US congressional delegation. He won't be meeting the team as well.

Remember, MEA Salman Khurshid had promised strict action.

India has also asked the US to turn in identity cards of all US diplomats serving in US Consulates all over the country.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 17 Dec 2013 12:57

Foreign media in India - BBC however is projecting only Modi refusing to meet the US delegation.

habal · Post by **habal** » 17 Dec 2013 13:01

One must ask the question, how can 4 sundry US congressmen have meetings with each and every leader of consequence in India. Surely the Indian parliamentary delegation to US would be lucky to even have a single meeting with some US senator. I am sure that these congressmen have already met everyone and their brother, except for the 4-5 guys who have just declined to meet. It's the mentality that's all messed up.

In any case, it seems that the old customary diplomatic protocols that used to be practiced during Indira and Rajiv's era have all been done away with. 4 Congressmen can meet anyone they fancy now, leader of opposition, prime minister, potential prime minister, speaker of parliament .. who else is left. It's a free for all now.