Scorpene's are already in service with the Malaysian and Chilean navies with 4 already in service. Never heard of such an issue with the in-service Scorpenes, so this issue has nothing to do with the Scorpene, but with the S-80 that Navantia developed as a modification of the Scorpene.Philip wrote:Red Alert! Are our Scorpene's fatally flawed?
The already troubled Scorpene sub programme,5+ years overdue and almost as expensive as a nuclear suib,is beginning to resemble the Oz's disastrous Collins sub fleet,that too even before the very first sub has been launched.last month we were told of another 18 month delay as the Spanish technical team,helping build the French designed subs,which Spain is also building, had returned home.Now we find that the Spanish version of the sub might sink like a stone to the bottom of the sea! Is this why the Spanish team made a quick getaway back to Spain? The MOD/IN need to clarify matters urgently.
530m bill for Spain's 'sinking submarines'
Updated: 20 May 2013 14:02 GMT+02:00
A defence contract worth €2.2 billion has hit the rocks after tests showed that the "world's most modern" submarine would plunge straight to the bottom of the sea.
http://www.thelocal.es/20130520/530-mil ... ZsmKazPJwE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-80-class_submarineSunday's El Mundo newspaper reported on the latest developments in the submarine saga that has given Spain's defence department a sinking feeling.
The €2.2 billion contract to design and build four S-80 underwater craft, billed as "the most modern submarine in the word" has been put on red alert after engineers found flaws in the plans and sounded the klaxon.
€530 million had already been spent when calculations made by engineers at Navantia, the construction firm, revealed that the submarine as designed would dive to the bottom of the sea and stay there due to excess weight.
Opposition party United Left has mocked the development in parliament and demanded explanations.
Two possible solutions have been proposed to help the fat-bottomed sub get off the ground: trim its weight or make it longer.
The second is more feasible but also more expensive as every extra metre added to the submarine would increase its cost by more than €7.5 million.
The president of the Navantia board has defended the work of the company's Cartagena shipyard and complained of "meddling" by unqualified people.
He explained that it had been reported as far back as 2005 that the development process was not being properly followed and that there was a lot of necessary improvisation due to the addition of new elements at the request of the Ministry of Defence.
The Spanish navy will take delivery of the four submarines next year, in the hope that they will be capable of floating.
Steve Tallantyre ([email protected])
In the 1980s France began studies for the replacement of their S-60 Daphné class diesel submarines. The French shipyard DCNI came up with an all-new design called S-80, with a teardrop hull and new weapons and sensors, which their government decided not to fund.[7] DCNI then proposed a cheaper option called the S-90B, an S-70 Agosta class submarine with limited improvements which was again rejected by the French but which was exported to Pakistan.[7] Meanwhile Spain faced the same problem in replacing their Daphnés, known as the Delfín class in Spanish service, as part of Plan ALTAMAR. Bazán (later Izar, and then Navantia) started on a new design but when it started to look like the S-80, it was agreed to collaborate in a joint venture based on the French S-80.[7] This joint design was shown at Le Bourget Navale in October 1990.[7]
The end of the Cold War meant that funding dried up and the joint venture had to wait until 1997 for their first sale - to Chile - of the new design,[8] which was designated the Scorpène class in export markets. The same year Spain started to look again at its requirements, and in 1998 they indicated that they would buy four Scorpènes,[7] optionally with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system for greater endurance when submerged. A staff requirement for the S-80 Scorpène variant was completed in October 2001.[9] This was soon overtaken by events, as the Armada became more interested in using submarines for power projection than in a more static, defensive role.[9] This shift was codified in guidance of January 2002 from the Chief of Naval Operations and in the strategic defence review of February 2003.[9] The new requirement called for a larger submarine with better endurance and land-attack missiles, which became known as the S-80A design. This was an AIP submarine with a hull diameter of 7.3 metres (24 ft) compared to 6.2 metres (20 ft) for the Scorpène family, a submerged displacement of around 2,400 tonnes versus 1,740 tonnes, larger rudder surfaces and a different fin position.[9]
The Spanish government approved the purchase of four S-80A submarines in September 2003 and signed a contract with Izar on 24 March 2004.[10] The original deal was €1,756m to design and build four submarines,[10] about US$550m per boat, but by 2010 this had increased to €2,212m[11] (US$700m/boat). The plan envisaged the first boat to be delivered in 2011 but government dithering over who should supply the combat system pushed it back to 2013.[9] In 2011 Spain's budget crisis further delayed the first delivery until 2015, with the remaining boats being delivered at one year intervals until 2018.[12] Construction of S-81 began on 13 December 2007.[13] In January 2012 the names were announced, honouring three engineers who made submarines and the first commander of Spain's submarine force respectively - Isaac Peral (S-81), Narciso Monturiol (S-82), Cosme García (S-83) and Mateo García de los Reyes (S-84).[14] In May 2013, Navantia announced that a serious weight imbalance design flaw had been identified which will delay the delivery of the first submarine to the Spanish Navy until possibly 2017.[15]
Indian Naval Discussion
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Maz,
Sorry, can't help with coding much. But if you need help with updates, let me know
Sorry, can't help with coding much. But if you need help with updates, let me know
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Maz,
I can work with HTML, not a expert. Haven't worked with Joomla but it should not be a rocket science. I can work around 5 hrs or bit more per week. Let me know if you need my help.
Cheers,
I can work with HTML, not a expert. Haven't worked with Joomla but it should not be a rocket science. I can work around 5 hrs or bit more per week. Let me know if you need my help.
Cheers,
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
The Spanish Scorpene has an AIP module and the problem has been officially acknowledged by the Spanish govt. It is the Spanish who are assisting us with our Scorpenes so there is definitely some concern that should be alleviated.The design is fundamentally the same whether it is for the French,Spanish or Indian navies.Leave aside this "weighty" issue ,the project is already 5+ years behind schedule and grossly expensive way over budget.
Russian subs while they lack some of the sophistication of western subs are tougher and much cheaper.The Kursk,was raised to the surface with a lot of the sub intact.had there been a better escape system for the crew in the rear compartments,they would've survived the second massive explosion of the forward torpedo room and its weaponry.Nothing happened to the reactor too.A study after the accident of the hull and wreckage,showed how simple faults,one after the other,led to the catastrophic loss of the sub.
Xcpts fropm Wik:
Russian subs while they lack some of the sophistication of western subs are tougher and much cheaper.The Kursk,was raised to the surface with a lot of the sub intact.had there been a better escape system for the crew in the rear compartments,they would've survived the second massive explosion of the forward torpedo room and its weaponry.Nothing happened to the reactor too.A study after the accident of the hull and wreckage,showed how simple faults,one after the other,led to the catastrophic loss of the sub.
Xcpts fropm Wik:
We are still in "Junior school" as far as sub design and construction goes.The ATV has been our proudest achievement,but without the Russian help,perhaps another decade+ of the learning curve to absorb. The reactor,etc. has leant heavily upon Russia's decades of designing and building nuclear powered subs. Therefore,for augmenting our dwindling conventional sub fleet,we need for the moment a design that is under series construction to be also armed with Brahmos. A future large conventional AIP sub deisgned with greater Indian input can succeed this import,when our upgraded Kilos ,armed with Klub,are due to be retired.he second explosion ripped a 2-square-metre (22 sq ft) hole in the hull of the craft, which was designed to withstand depths of 1,000 metres (3,300 ft), and also ripped open the third and fourth compartments. Water poured into these compartments at 90,000 litres (3,200 cu ft) per second killing all those in the compartments, including five officers from 7th SSGN Division Headquarters. The fifth compartment contained the ship's two nuclear reactors, encased in 13 centimetres (5.1 in) of steel and resiliently mounted to absorb shocks in excess of 50g. The bulkheads of the fifth compartment withstood the explosion, allowing the two reactors to shut down automatically and preventing nuclear meltdown or contamination.[1]
Later forensic examination of two of the reactor control room casualties showed extensive skeletal injuries which indicated that they had sustained shocks of over 50g during the explosions. These shocks would have temporarily disoriented the operators and possibly other sailors further aft.[1]
"It's dark here to write, but I'll try by feel. It seems like there are no chances, 10-20%. Let's hope that at least someone will read this. Here's the list of personnel from the other sections, who are now in the ninth and will attempt to get out. Regards to everybody, no need to be desperate. Kolesnikov."[5]
Captain lieutenant Dmitri Kolesnikov
Twenty-three men working in the sixth through ninth compartments survived the two blasts. They gathered in the ninth compartment, which contained the secondary escape hatch (the primary hatch having been in the destroyed second compartment). Captain-lieutenant Dmitri Kolesnikov (one of three surviving officers of that rank) appears to have taken charge, writing down the names of those who were in the ninth compartment. The air pressure in the compartment following the secondary explosions was still normal surface pressure and so it would be possible, at least from a physiological point of view, to don survival suits and use the hatch to escape one man at a time, swimming up through 100 metres (330 ft) of Arctic water to await help at the surface.
It is not known if the escape hatch was workable from the inside; opinions differ about how badly it was damaged. The men would likely have rejected risking the escape hatch even if it were operable, and may have preferred instead to take their chances waiting for a submarine rescue ship to clamp itself onto the hatch. As the nuclear reactors had automatically shut down, emergency power would soon have run out, plunging the crew into complete darkness and falling temperatures. Kolesnikov wrote two further messages, much less tidily.
There has been much debate over how long the sailors survived. Russian sources say that they would have died very quickly. The Dutch recovery team report a widely believed two- to three-hour survival time in the least affected sternmost compartment.[1] In normal operation, water leaks into a stationary Oscar-II craft around the propeller shafts, and at 100 metres (330 ft) depth it would have been impossible to prevent. Others point out that many superoxide chemical cartridges, used to absorb carbon dioxide and provide oxygen in an emergency, were found to have been used when the craft was recovered, suggesting survival for several days. The cartridges seem to have been the final cause of death: a cartridge appears to have come in contact with oily sea water, causing a chemical reaction and flash fire. The official investigation into the disaster showed that some men survived this fire by plunging under water (fire marks on bulkheads indicate the water was at waist level at the time) but the fire would have used up any remaining oxygen in the air, causing death by asphyxiation.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Spanish S80 is a larger and enlarged version of French Scorpene Design and I doubt the flaws in S80 has any bearing on Scorpene design since these subs are operational in few navies for quite some time.
However if the new of S-80 if true will impact in some ways its participating in IN P-75I program in which it is a prime contender but we will have to wait and see how this evolves.
However if the new of S-80 if true will impact in some ways its participating in IN P-75I program in which it is a prime contender but we will have to wait and see how this evolves.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Considering that India has never even tried its hand at building indigenous diesels and took its first step straight with nuclear subs, we are still very much on the "first day of Kindergarten" and thinking otherwise would be only delusional. The Americans and the Russians have been building nuclear subs for 50+ years aided by the unlimited budgets of the Cold War and the threat of nuclear annihilation to motivate them, India on the other hand is simply tinkering and puttering about so far.Philip wrote:We are still in "Junior school" as far as sub design and construction goes.The ATV has been our proudest achievement,.....
The ATV is still a "advanced technology vessel", a prototype sub for all intents and purposes - not a combat vessel, even though the government would have us believe so.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
What makes you think ATV doesn't have sufficient funding ?Brando wrote:Considering that India has never even tried its hand at building indigenous diesels and took its first step straight with nuclear subs, we are still very much on the "first day of Kindergarten" and thinking otherwise would be only delusional. The Americans and the Russians have been building nuclear subs for 50+ years aided by the unlimited budgets of the Cold War and the threat of nuclear annihilation to motivate them, India on the other hand is simply tinkering and puttering about so far.Philip wrote:We are still in "Junior school" as far as sub design and construction goes.The ATV has been our proudest achievement,.....
The ATV is still a "advanced technology vessel", a prototype sub for all intents and purposes - not a combat vessel, even though the government would have us believe so.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Well ATV is indeed a protoype but it will enter combat service make no mistake about that, it has atleast 1.5 years of sea trails but hopefully 2015 it should be fully inducted & will undertake nuke patrols as required. Though I certainly don't think the current orders of 3 more is enough, this little nuke sub is actually pretty neat. I think the key now should be prove its abilities and order more. I believe this thing could be the main sub workhorse for a long time.
A multi year order of 30 Arihant class would be awesome and a good investment, it is fast, quiet and small. We could have 4 groups, each group armed with a specific type of missiles on a rotational basis,
1st Group: 5 Subs * 12 conventional Sagarika: 60 Missiles
2nd Group: 10 subs * 12 Conventional Brahmos 1/2 : 120 Missiles
3rd Group: 10 Subs * 12 Nirbhay Missiles: 120 Missiles
4th Group: 5 Subs * 4 K-4 Nuke Tipped Missiles: 20 Missiles
I also think if the design proves itself during trials, the same design with internal modifications could be used for a AIP ultra quiet diesel sub.
A multi year order of 30 Arihant class would be awesome and a good investment, it is fast, quiet and small. We could have 4 groups, each group armed with a specific type of missiles on a rotational basis,
1st Group: 5 Subs * 12 conventional Sagarika: 60 Missiles
2nd Group: 10 subs * 12 Conventional Brahmos 1/2 : 120 Missiles
3rd Group: 10 Subs * 12 Nirbhay Missiles: 120 Missiles
4th Group: 5 Subs * 4 K-4 Nuke Tipped Missiles: 20 Missiles
I also think if the design proves itself during trials, the same design with internal modifications could be used for a AIP ultra quiet diesel sub.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
More on Spain's "sinking S-80s".
Spain spent $680 million on submarine that ‘can’t resurface’
http://rt.com/news/spanish-submarine-ca ... rface-634/
Spain spent $680 million on submarine that ‘can’t resurface’
http://rt.com/news/spanish-submarine-ca ... rface-634/
Spanish engineers, who already spent some $680 million on designing the new generation S-80 class submarine, say it is a major “technical innovation.” There is just one problem the calculations show – if submerged into water, it may never come up again.
The Spanish media has been furiously discussing the errors made by the state-owned Navantia construction company, which has spent about a third of the huge $2.2 billion budget only to produce an ‘overweight’ submarine that is not able to float.
Spain’s Ministry of Defense has confirmed that Navantia detected “deviations” in the new submarine’s design, thus delaying its March 2015 scheduled launch for one or two years.
Navantia said an excess weight of up to 100 tons has been added to the sub during construction, and the company may have to redesign the whole craft.
The excess weight may result in significant problem in the craft’s buoyancy and severely affect its ability to submerge and resurface from depth, the local media explained.
To ensure the submarine does not sink, Navantia considers lengthening its hull in order to re-balance the weight, infodefensa.com said, citing sources.
A computer-generation image of the S-80 class submarine (Image: navantia.es))
But each extra meter of the sub will reportedly cost the austerity-stricken state more than €7.5 million ($9.7 million).
Spain’s opposition party United Left has mocked the submarine development in parliament and demanded explanations.
The Ministry of Defense downplayed the clamor, saying adjustments and delays in such complex technological projects are “within normality.” The ministry is now “studying the scope of the problem to determine its impact in terms of time and money” and is considering “various alternatives.”
A delegation from the local College of Industrial Engineers in Murcia region on Tuesday visited the Navantia facilities and spoke in support of the company’s engineers “facing unprecedented technological solutions,” La Verdad said. Navantia’s “technical innovation” is an even more challenging task, given that the plant has to build “four submarines simultaneously,” said the Dean of the College Andres Ortuno.
While the Spanish state is waiting for the four S-80 class submarines to be modified and completed, it will only have two submarines in service – and may have to spend €30 million ($38.8 million) to repair the aging S-74 Tramontana.
The unexpected costs come at a time when Spain’s Ministry of Defense has seen its budget cut by some 30 per cent as part of austerity measures.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
The Spaniards aren't the only ones assisting MDL on the Scorpenes. There were around 10-15 Navantia engineers working with MDL who have since returned. The S-80 design and the Scorpene are not the same- the hull diameter is different and so is the length to accomodate more land attack missiles. The displacement isn't the same either. And the Scorpenes that we're getting are similar to the ones already in service, none of which have seen any of the issues that were described for the S-80.Philip wrote:The Spanish Scorpene has an AIP module and the problem has been officially acknowledged by the Spanish govt. It is the Spanish who are assisting us with our Scorpenes so there is definitely some concern that should be alleviated.The design is fundamentally the same whether it is for the French,Spanish or Indian navies.Leave aside this "weighty" issue ,the project is already 5+ years behind schedule and grossly expensive way over budget.
As for the project being behind schedule, what has that got to do with any of the S-80's design issues, which was the reason you posted that article? Stop shifting the topic being discussed when your first point of discussion has no merit.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
The scope of DCNS work and navantia. http://www.navantia.es/eng/lineas-activ ... oria-4.php
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
30 Nuclear subs? By Year 2070 or what?Septimus P. wrote:A multi year order of 30 Arihant class would be awesome and a good investment, it is fast, quiet and small. We could have 4 groups, each group armed with a specific type of missiles on a rotational basis,
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
IN would go bankrupt
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
The "first point of discussion" has merit,as the two subs are from the same basic Scorpene design.It is not as if one sub was a Scorpene and the other an Agosta.Since the Spanish have been providing us with technical support,it is reasonable to ask whether there are design similarities with our Scorpenes-if you read the assistance agreement which includes "design modifications".
The delay in the programme for over 5 years is no small matter either and we are officially told that due to the Spanish technical team returning home,another "18 months" delay is anticipated! The entire project has been badly mismanaged right from drawing up the dthe contract,the fine print of procurement of components,the escalation in pricing and the delays due to MD's inability to absorb on schedule the new sub-tech and sub building art which it lost when the U-209 line was closed.Let's not pretend that everything is "hunky-dory".
There are various types of Kilos in service worldwide,from 877s to 6363s.The basic design remains the same.It would be legitimate to ask the same Q if new Kilos ,for say Vietnam had a flaw, while our Kilos are still being upgraded in Russia.
The delay in the programme for over 5 years is no small matter either and we are officially told that due to the Spanish technical team returning home,another "18 months" delay is anticipated! The entire project has been badly mismanaged right from drawing up the dthe contract,the fine print of procurement of components,the escalation in pricing and the delays due to MD's inability to absorb on schedule the new sub-tech and sub building art which it lost when the U-209 line was closed.Let's not pretend that everything is "hunky-dory".
There are various types of Kilos in service worldwide,from 877s to 6363s.The basic design remains the same.It would be legitimate to ask the same Q if new Kilos ,for say Vietnam had a flaw, while our Kilos are still being upgraded in Russia.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
India will end up paying more money for one boat then the yanks will pay for the whole class of vergiania
class boats and run out of buget. The CAG will call the situation a disgrace. The DM will say no losses have occured. Life will go on.
class boats and run out of buget. The CAG will call the situation a disgrace. The DM will say no losses have occured. Life will go on.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Smaller than the LA class but larger than most other SSNs current in commission (the Rubis-class is less than half as big as the Arihant). Though large or small itself is not a determinant of utility.Septimus P. wrote:A multi year order of 30 Arihant class would be awesome and a good investment, it is fast, quiet and small.
Fast... remains to be seen.
Quiet, not likely. It may eventually develop into a vessel comparable to the LA/Akula/Trafalgar, but there's long way to go. And anything more advanced (read:Virginia/Astute/Barracuda) has to be imported.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Its a pity that the IN/MoD don't appear to be pursuing European SSNs despite developing a carrier-centric navy. With the Russians already having initiated the nuclear submarine trade and with domestic orders being cut/scaled back, I'm willing to bet both France and the UK would be willing to discuss further, the prospect of export to a 'strategic partner' willing to pay hard cash.
We're paying about $1 billion to lease the Nerpa for 10 years. For about $2 billion or thereabouts we could buy outright a considerably better vessel serving for at least 30 years, with some of that capital probably reinvested in the domestic industry as offsets.
We're paying about $1 billion to lease the Nerpa for 10 years. For about $2 billion or thereabouts we could buy outright a considerably better vessel serving for at least 30 years, with some of that capital probably reinvested in the domestic industry as offsets.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
This import fascination is short sighted. Their is no way we can get numerically get close to Chinese 10 plus nuclear subs and 50 odd conventional subs through imports.
We really need to delete our 'import' mentality and develop a submarine program based on Scorpene and Arihant vessels. Nothing could be more weird than building a nuclear submarine but needing to import conventional subs.
It is obvious that unless we master building conventional subs ourselves, we will never be able to sustain financially or technologically a nuclear sub program. Arihant will be technology demonstrator and a dead end.
We really need to delete our 'import' mentality and develop a submarine program based on Scorpene and Arihant vessels. Nothing could be more weird than building a nuclear submarine but needing to import conventional subs.
It is obvious that unless we master building conventional subs ourselves, we will never be able to sustain financially or technologically a nuclear sub program. Arihant will be technology demonstrator and a dead end.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
>> For about $2 billion or thereabouts
I doubt that figure. maybe thats the figure for the 5-7 Uk/France tend in order in one class. they will find a way to make it 3-4 billion for any export customer.
we definitely need to build a follow on class to the scorpene and attempt to amortize the huge setup cost over another 15 SSK which will replace the Kilos and HDW. I believe the proposal to upg the 4 HDW subs was abandoned a couple years ago...all 4 should be retired by 2020 or relegated to training role.
we need 25 SSK and 6 nuclear subs as a reasonable goal.
I doubt that figure. maybe thats the figure for the 5-7 Uk/France tend in order in one class. they will find a way to make it 3-4 billion for any export customer.
we definitely need to build a follow on class to the scorpene and attempt to amortize the huge setup cost over another 15 SSK which will replace the Kilos and HDW. I believe the proposal to upg the 4 HDW subs was abandoned a couple years ago...all 4 should be retired by 2020 or relegated to training role.
we need 25 SSK and 6 nuclear subs as a reasonable goal.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Nik,we need to break down the main components of subs,both conventional and AIP and first work towards producing them in-house .As far as the hull is concerned,there was an issue of special steel required which needed to be imported.L&T have been very successful in manufacturing the hulls of our ATVs,for three subs under construction.As far as sonars are concerned,we have made much headway,with some of our upgraded subs and warships supposedly using them.The non-conventional sensors used by the Russians and the West to detect sub's wake,etc., are beyond us at this moment.One will notice that our Akula-2 does not have these ultra-secret sensors aboard.Anechoic rubber tiles.Here the Arihant has such tiles,but we are not sure whether they were developed in-house or with Russian help.Propulsion.Quiet diesels for conventional subs-not yet.The ATV has our very first nuclear plant,built at Kalpakkam-a success one hopes,which will give us the incentive to build more powerful reactors for future nuclear boats.We are thus on the learning curve here.We are also developing our own AIP system which we hope to have aboard a desi built sub within a decade.'Scopes and NHPPs,not yet.Highly sophisticated,esp scopes with a plethora of other sensors.Combat systems,nyet.However,there has been considerable progress in our warship combat systems,which earlier had some Eytie input.There are heaps of miscell. eqpt. like generators ,batteries,pumps,valves,etc.that we do not have enough open details of where we have succeeded and where we need to import.
As for weapon systems,we have just begun to fabricate our torpedoes .How these compare with firang fish,is anyone's guess.We do not have any desi equiv. to the latest fish from the west,like the French,long-endurance wake homing torpedoes which keep on making pass after pass for hours,until there is a hit.We have no Shkval either. We have begun to make our own decoys,but do not have the variety of As for missiles,it will be some time before we perfect a sub-launched version of Nirbhay.UUVs and compartments and gear for special forces-a blank.
The great success is sub-launched Brahmos,but we have no platform for it! This is due to our lack of foresight and miserable planning by the MOD,which ha squatted on the second line of subs since the Adm.Bhagwat era! With our rapidly dwindling numbers,unless we import urgently a sub that can carry B'Mos,,which in any case will arrive only by 2020 ,we will have to keep our aging Kilos in service just as we did with the Foxtrots-long beyond their usual lifespan.It looks like it will be a decade before we are able to develop all ,or almost of these technolgies/components ourselves-and that is upto current tech stds. In a decade from now,there will be even further developments. Not to mention the immediate need for scores of UUVs.The real difficulty is miniaturising components,reducing size and weight when it comes to conventional diesel/AIP subs.Nuclear boats with their larger hulls,internal space and more powerful powerplants,can afford to have larger components and throw in more facilities like showers and saunas in some Russian nuclear boats!
For both the IN and the strategic requirements of the armed forces,building indigenous nuclear SSBNs is the paramount priority.It is here where our total focus and concentration should be.If we are able to master the art of building SSBNs and SSGNs,then we will have nuclear subs that can operate in any ocean,anywhere,from forward offensive stations in any crisis,with a 100 day patrol and endurance. Nuclear boats because of their longer patrol time,can obviate the need of extra numbers that a conventional fleet requires for the same purpose,esp. for blue-water ops.It is in the littorals,where conventional subs using the thermal gradients and muddy water conditions,can remain undetected even by nuclear boats and warships with advanced ASW sensors.With AIP,the duration of a patrol can extend to 45+ days.The more nitpicking task of building a conventional sub can go on simultaneously,but imports will be needed to keep the sub fleet numbers happy,especially as China is making very vigorous efforts to augment its sub fleet to have 80 subs by 2020.By then we may barely have 18 subs in service,while Pak will have between 8-12.
PS:Some more on the "sinking Spanish subs".Let's hope that there are no similar "deviations" with our Scorpenes! We wouldn't like our subs to perform the flamenco underwater.It gives a new meaning to the word "tapas"!
Xcpt:
As for weapon systems,we have just begun to fabricate our torpedoes .How these compare with firang fish,is anyone's guess.We do not have any desi equiv. to the latest fish from the west,like the French,long-endurance wake homing torpedoes which keep on making pass after pass for hours,until there is a hit.We have no Shkval either. We have begun to make our own decoys,but do not have the variety of As for missiles,it will be some time before we perfect a sub-launched version of Nirbhay.UUVs and compartments and gear for special forces-a blank.
The great success is sub-launched Brahmos,but we have no platform for it! This is due to our lack of foresight and miserable planning by the MOD,which ha squatted on the second line of subs since the Adm.Bhagwat era! With our rapidly dwindling numbers,unless we import urgently a sub that can carry B'Mos,,which in any case will arrive only by 2020 ,we will have to keep our aging Kilos in service just as we did with the Foxtrots-long beyond their usual lifespan.It looks like it will be a decade before we are able to develop all ,or almost of these technolgies/components ourselves-and that is upto current tech stds. In a decade from now,there will be even further developments. Not to mention the immediate need for scores of UUVs.The real difficulty is miniaturising components,reducing size and weight when it comes to conventional diesel/AIP subs.Nuclear boats with their larger hulls,internal space and more powerful powerplants,can afford to have larger components and throw in more facilities like showers and saunas in some Russian nuclear boats!
For both the IN and the strategic requirements of the armed forces,building indigenous nuclear SSBNs is the paramount priority.It is here where our total focus and concentration should be.If we are able to master the art of building SSBNs and SSGNs,then we will have nuclear subs that can operate in any ocean,anywhere,from forward offensive stations in any crisis,with a 100 day patrol and endurance. Nuclear boats because of their longer patrol time,can obviate the need of extra numbers that a conventional fleet requires for the same purpose,esp. for blue-water ops.It is in the littorals,where conventional subs using the thermal gradients and muddy water conditions,can remain undetected even by nuclear boats and warships with advanced ASW sensors.With AIP,the duration of a patrol can extend to 45+ days.The more nitpicking task of building a conventional sub can go on simultaneously,but imports will be needed to keep the sub fleet numbers happy,especially as China is making very vigorous efforts to augment its sub fleet to have 80 subs by 2020.By then we may barely have 18 subs in service,while Pak will have between 8-12.
PS:Some more on the "sinking Spanish subs".Let's hope that there are no similar "deviations" with our Scorpenes! We wouldn't like our subs to perform the flamenco underwater.It gives a new meaning to the word "tapas"!
Xcpt:
According to Spain's Ministry of Defense, Navantia has detected "deviations" in the new sub's design, which will now delay its scheduled launch, set to happen in March 2015, for one or two years.
According to Navantia, due to the excess weight which has been added during construction, the company may have to totally redesign the whole submarine. The company is considering lengthening the hull in order to re-balance the weight.
However, one big problem with this idea will be that every extra meter added to the submarine will cost the austerity-stricken country more than €7.5 million ($9.7 million).
Navantia, the shipbuilders based in Cartagena, southern Spain, are now seeking "technical experts from abroad" to help with the redesign of what was billed as the "most modern conventional submarine".
Apparently the president of the Navantia board has defended their work and has complained of "meddling" by unqualified people.
United Left, Spain's opposition party, has reportedly mocked the development of the submarine in parliament and is demanding explanations.
However, the row was downplayed by the Ministry of Defense, who said that delays and adjustments in such complex technological problems are “within normality.”
Apparently the ministry is now “studying the scope of the problem to determine its impact in terms of time and money” and is considering “various alternatives.”
In the meantime, while Spain is awaiting four S-80 class subs to be modified and completed, there will only be two submarines in service. On top of this they may need to spent €30 million ($38.8 million) to repair the aging S-74 Tramontana sub.
Seems like these new groundbreaking submarines are rather like the Spanish economy these days, going down...
Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/3 ... z2UAipILCA
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
One can understand that "logic"/sentiment.Nothing could be more weird than building a nuclear submarine but needing to import conventional subs.
However, a nuclear sub is a strategic asset and needs to be build (like any other strategic asset) at any cost.
The conventional sub needs to be the best RoI, which could mean farming it out.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Really? As a layman, I would think that the same sub with a different propulsion could also be developed.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
French Scorpene Type-75 submarine is based on French nuclear submarine designs and materials (hull, mesma takes ideas from nuclear reactor). Navantia developed S-80 based on Augosta. DCNS developed merlin based on Scorpene. Brazil could end up with nuclear submarine based on scorpene.
India can do the same thing. It has been so well summed up with the link I posted earlier http://frontierindia.net/indian-navy-p- ... indigenous .
India can do the same thing. It has been so well summed up with the link I posted earlier http://frontierindia.net/indian-navy-p- ... indigenous .
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I can work with joomla as well as HTML and everything related to web.maz wrote:Volunteers needed with HTML and Joomla skills for updating naval and coast guard pages.
As most viewers would agree, the IN pages need major updates while a new section for the ICG needs to be created. Four volunteers will work with me to create pages and update them regularly using material provided by me.
Initially, I estimate 10 hours per week for a period of 1 month to create pages, then populate them. Subsequently, I estimate no more than 2 hours per week to update various sections/ pages with new events.
Thanks for your interest and i look forward to hearing from some of BR's readers.
Let me know.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
P-8 entering production phase
AviationWeek article
AviationWeek article
May 20, 2013
Credit: U.S. NavyGuy Norris Los Angeles
With the delivery of the first P-8I to India on May 15, and the recent completion of initial operational test and evaluation of the U.S. Navy's P-8A, Boeing is close to fully transitioning the maritime patrol program from development to production.
“The System Development Demonstration program is 98% done and the only lingering work has to do with fatigue testing,” says Egan Greenstein, Boeing P-8 business development director. “Everything else is focused on low-rate initial production (LRIP)-2, with eight U.S. Navy deliveries and three P-8Is for the Indian navy this year.”
Earlier in May a confluence of six P-8s transiting to and from the company's Installation and Check Out (ICO) facility at Boeing Field illustrated the increasing rate of activity as production rises to around one per month. The scene “has woken people up to the pace of what's happening here,” says Greenstein. “One per month doesn't sound too much, but it's a lot of moving parts.” With the anticipated move to full-rate production expected to be approved later this year, manufacturing is due to increase in the next two years.
Boeing is now under contract for 24 P-8As out of a stated Navy requirement for 117 aircraft, and is set to deliver the ninth later this month. This aircraft will be the third to be delivered from LRIP-2, the second production contract awarded in November 2011. A third production contract, covering 11 further aircraft, was received in September 2012. Plans are in hand for the next two production lots with 13 P-8s provisionally slated for fiscal 2014 and 16 in fiscal 2015. The ICO at Boeing Field is sized for up to 24 P-8s completions per year, including international sales and any potential future derivatives, says Greenstein. However, even with the planned increase in Navy completions and the additional Indian navy P-8Is, the overall annual throughput of the facility will be well below this level. “We see it as manageable, maybe even conservative,” he adds.
India's first delivery of an 'in-country' aircraft this month will be followed by two further aircraft in the third and fourth quarters of the year. India has eight P-8Is on firm order and Boeing is optimistic that options on a further four could be taken up later in 2013, or early 2014. The company expects to sustain the international orderbook with an initial contract for at least eight aircraft for Australia in 2014. “We anticipate a production agreement in 2014 following a second-pass review early in the first half of the year,” says Greenstein, referring to the final milestone in Australia's two-pass approval process for the acquisition of a new defense system. Overall, Boeing forecasts a requirement for “at least 60” international P-8s. “We have roughly 15 campaigns underway in various countries,” he adds.
Australia signed a memorandum of understanding with the U.S. Navy to collaborate in the development of the more capable Increment 2 version of the P-8A in 2009, and in September 2012 signed a similar pact for Increment 3. “Boeing is doing the engineering for the phased implementation of the capability, and retrofitting the aircraft already out there,” says Greenstein. Increment 2 includes upgrading the aircraft's acoustic processor to allow the introduction of the multi-static active coherent (MAC) anti-submarine warfare (ASW) system.
The MAC will be introduced in two blocks, or engineering change proposals (ECPs). ECP1 will include an update to the interface with the TacMobile ground station that currently supports the existing P-3 Orion fleet. The first phase will introduce the MAC shallow water acoustic search capability while ECP2, covering the second phase of the MAC, will provide deep-water capability.
The second phase will also see the P-8A equipped with modified sonobuoys for high-altitude ASW warfare, as well as the high-altitude ASW weapon capability (Haawc) system. This is a Mark 54 torpedo fitted with a GPS-guided wing and tail kit that will enable the weapon to be launched from altitudes up to 30,000 ft. Boeing received a $19.2 million Navy contract to design and build the Haawc air launch kits early in April.
Increment 2—slated to enter initial operational capability (IOC)—in early fiscal 2016, will be followed by a third upgrade that will introduce a “net-ready” systems architecture for more flexible software-based enhancements and net-enabled anti-surface warfare weapons and targeting. IOC for Increment 3 is fiscal 2020. Under a $138 million effort running through fiscal 2017, Boeing is also conducting an engineering analysis of the Raytheon Advanced Aerial Sensor (AAS) long-range, high-resolution surveillance radar on the P-8A. The AAS is an electronically-scanned active array radar with a 40-ft.-long antenna housed in a pod under the forward fuselage.
The first P-8A fleet deployment is “on track” for December 2013 when aircraft from Patrol Sqdn. 16, based at NAS Jacksonville, Fla., are due to begin operating out of Kadena AFB, Okinawa.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
So the US P-8A's will have AESA A to A capability while the P-8I have slotted array A to A capability
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
As i have been saying we could have mass manufactured cheap U-209 clones' while in second line building Scorpene. Mod and IN placed too much faith in MDL and DCN to some extent.
Fitting 8 VL Brahmos in anything short of 3000+ Ton submarine is foolhardy because it would severely degrade the vessels' performance, put this way 8 Brahmos UVLS weight twice as much as 12 tube VLS on LA class submarines'.Philip wrote:unless we import urgently a sub that can carry B'Mos,,which in any case will arrive only by 2020 ,we will have to keep our aging Kilos in service just as we did with the Foxtrots-long beyond their usual lifespan.It looks like it will be a decade before we are able to develop all ,or almost of these technolgies/components ourselves-and that is upto current tech stds. In a decade from now,there will be even further developments.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Kapils excellent photoessays and reports on the commissioning of INAS 303/ MiG-29K as well as one on naval aviation are online at
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... m/INAS303/
and
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... +Aviation/
Enjoy.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... m/INAS303/
and
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... +Aviation/
Enjoy.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
It would be useful to read how the Chinese went about their sub development program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_L ... rine_Force
We took the first step with HDW and then faltered, eventually failed to keep the momentum going. India had faced serious economic challenges to pursue this programme really.
Today, we are better positioned and have adequate (not plenty like the Chinese) resources to pursue a conventional and nuclear submarine program. We should work on building commonality in sensors, communication equipment and cross learnings across these platforms, which will further cut down costs and make both viable programmes.
Scorpenes project cost was 3.45 billion in 2005, 4.3 billion in 2010 and guessing 5~6 billion today. 1 billion for a conventional sub 'fabricated' in India is mind boggling. After this experience, the French (and rest of the world also) will look at India as an ATM for their defense establishments. And it is clearly evident in the Rafale saga.
Another way to look at this: We can only have a nuclear submarine program if we save money by pursuing indigenization of conventional submarines. Our naval modernization budget in 2013 is 4 billion USD. Can we really afford to buy conventional subs for 1 billion a piece. Even if we spend all of it on conventional submarines, it will take us 12 years to match Chinese 50 conventional submarine strength. Let's talk about more foreign submarine acquisitions now.
I think MOD needs to create one entity to drive the nuclear and conventional submarine programme. MDL tying up with L&T is really the only option. Overtime, L&T should take full ownership of this programme. MDL's future is uncertain and it will be pushed out of Mumbai eventually, given the real estate value and high cost of living. And why build in South Mumbai, the most expensive place in India to begin with?
We took the first step with HDW and then faltered, eventually failed to keep the momentum going. India had faced serious economic challenges to pursue this programme really.
Today, we are better positioned and have adequate (not plenty like the Chinese) resources to pursue a conventional and nuclear submarine program. We should work on building commonality in sensors, communication equipment and cross learnings across these platforms, which will further cut down costs and make both viable programmes.
Scorpenes project cost was 3.45 billion in 2005, 4.3 billion in 2010 and guessing 5~6 billion today. 1 billion for a conventional sub 'fabricated' in India is mind boggling. After this experience, the French (and rest of the world also) will look at India as an ATM for their defense establishments. And it is clearly evident in the Rafale saga.
Another way to look at this: We can only have a nuclear submarine program if we save money by pursuing indigenization of conventional submarines. Our naval modernization budget in 2013 is 4 billion USD. Can we really afford to buy conventional subs for 1 billion a piece. Even if we spend all of it on conventional submarines, it will take us 12 years to match Chinese 50 conventional submarine strength. Let's talk about more foreign submarine acquisitions now.
I think MOD needs to create one entity to drive the nuclear and conventional submarine programme. MDL tying up with L&T is really the only option. Overtime, L&T should take full ownership of this programme. MDL's future is uncertain and it will be pushed out of Mumbai eventually, given the real estate value and high cost of living. And why build in South Mumbai, the most expensive place in India to begin with?
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
The only nation building "cheap" subs is Russia.Even the prices for their subs are not "cheap" as far as weapon systems and their total back-up infrastructure,etc., goes.But somehow,the Russians have managed to continue with their upgraded and reliable Kilos very successfully,just like upgraded MIG-21 Bisons.New boats both for Russia and exports for Vietnam,Venezuela,etc.,carry on.The Amur/Lada has finally turned the corner in its development,only the AIP module has to be certified,and several variants of it are on offer,one with even a 10 cell module for Brahmos,on a sub with a displacement of between 2000 -2500t.One can only put the economical cost of Russian subs down to two major factors.Raw material,special steels,alloys,titanium, locally available in large qty., and a large workforce that has survived the USSR's collapse.Russian nuclear sub building has rapidly accelerated and under Putin,the modernisation of the entire Russian defence establishment and infrastructure has been given the top priority.
Western subs ,being more sophisticated and complex ,come with a greater price tag and a greater difficulty in building them.What is simply shocking is the escalating costs of building a conventional western origin sub.As was posted by a member,we should've continued building a line of new U-boats,at least four more, after HDW was cleared of scam allegations.Even if the Scorpene deal was signed.We would've then had the best of the west.Now the SoKo yards are churning them out like bratwurst and bockwurst! embers might remember my plea a few years ago for the same,where we could've even bought the new U-boats that the Greeks couldn't pay for,for a song.Sadly,both the MOD and IN have been at fault in not pursuing the sub fleet modernisation and expansion.We will be overwhelmed in numbers by a variety of Chinese subs,which have made at least 20+ forays into our backyard last year.Given the chokepoints that Chinese warships have to transit into the IOR,it is going to be their subs which will be sent into battle rather than their surface task forces,in much the same way that the Germans fought the "Battle of the Atlantic". Th difference is that the Chinese have the major factor of using Gwadar as a military base from where they can operate their subs,warships and LRMP aircraft and amphibians too.There is also nothing to prevent the Chinese from stationing their naval Flankers at Gwadar. This will enable them to provide susbstantial air cover for their surfacec fleet,subs and merchant fleet esp. tankers,transiting the IOR.The proposed pipelines from Gwadar to Tibet through Pak and from the Burmese ports,will obviate the need to transit the Malacca Straits.The string of pearls in the IOR will provide China with the ability to field forces protecting its merchant fleet to some extent.
The IN's task in keeping track of PLAN subs is going to be a tough one,as we cannot be "everywhere" at the same time with our lack in numbers of both subs and LRMP and MRP aircraft..
PS:Another interesting report on the "Sinking Spanish Subs".Check out the site for pics of China's Liaoning carrier and test flights of its J-15 fighter jet.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/2 ... de=1799013
Spain's S-81 Isaac Peral Submarine Cost $680 Million To Build... And Can't Float
Xcpt:
Western subs ,being more sophisticated and complex ,come with a greater price tag and a greater difficulty in building them.What is simply shocking is the escalating costs of building a conventional western origin sub.As was posted by a member,we should've continued building a line of new U-boats,at least four more, after HDW was cleared of scam allegations.Even if the Scorpene deal was signed.We would've then had the best of the west.Now the SoKo yards are churning them out like bratwurst and bockwurst! embers might remember my plea a few years ago for the same,where we could've even bought the new U-boats that the Greeks couldn't pay for,for a song.Sadly,both the MOD and IN have been at fault in not pursuing the sub fleet modernisation and expansion.We will be overwhelmed in numbers by a variety of Chinese subs,which have made at least 20+ forays into our backyard last year.Given the chokepoints that Chinese warships have to transit into the IOR,it is going to be their subs which will be sent into battle rather than their surface task forces,in much the same way that the Germans fought the "Battle of the Atlantic". Th difference is that the Chinese have the major factor of using Gwadar as a military base from where they can operate their subs,warships and LRMP aircraft and amphibians too.There is also nothing to prevent the Chinese from stationing their naval Flankers at Gwadar. This will enable them to provide susbstantial air cover for their surfacec fleet,subs and merchant fleet esp. tankers,transiting the IOR.The proposed pipelines from Gwadar to Tibet through Pak and from the Burmese ports,will obviate the need to transit the Malacca Straits.The string of pearls in the IOR will provide China with the ability to field forces protecting its merchant fleet to some extent.
The IN's task in keeping track of PLAN subs is going to be a tough one,as we cannot be "everywhere" at the same time with our lack in numbers of both subs and LRMP and MRP aircraft..
PS:Another interesting report on the "Sinking Spanish Subs".Check out the site for pics of China's Liaoning carrier and test flights of its J-15 fighter jet.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/2 ... de=1799013
Spain's S-81 Isaac Peral Submarine Cost $680 Million To Build... And Can't Float
Xcpt:
..and $16m missing during the construction of our Akula-2 the Chakra ,formerly the Nerpa.As Spain seeks to rein in ballooning deficits, it has discovered some of its bloat surfacing from an unexpected place: under the sea.
According to El Pais, the S-81 Isaac Peral -- the first of four state-of-the-art new submarines commissioned for the Spanish Navy -- is 75 to 100 tons overweight. That may not seem like a lot, considering the submarine's full weight when submerged is 2,430 tons, but according to engineers at Navantia, the Spanish shipbuilding company responsible for its design, that excess bulk is enough to prevent the Isaac Peral from successfully resurfacing once submerged.
Unfortunately for the Spainards, Quartz reports that they have already sunk the equivalent of $680 million into the Isaac Peral, and a total of $3 billion into the entire quartet of S-80 class submarines.
The descent has been precipitous for the S-80 subs, which some had hailed as the most modern non-nuclear submarines in the world. Among the S-80's celebrated advancement is a diesel-electric propulsion engine that, ironically, promises to be 20% lighter than comparable systems while delivering 50% more power. The submarines' technical specifications, along with a computer-generated image of what one will look like, can be found here.
If Spain hopes to salvage its submarines, it must either find some weight that can be trimmed from the current design or lengthen the ship to accomodate the excess weight, The Local notes. Though the latter option is more feasible, it is expected to cost Spain an extra $9.7 million per meter.
11:28 24/05/2013
MOSCOW, May 24 (RAPSI) - Around 500 million rubles ($15.9 million) issued by Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport for the completion of the Nerpa nuclear submarine go missing, the Kommersant business daily reported on Friday.
The money was reportedly transferred to the Far East Center of Shipbuilding and Ship Repair. The loss was discovered during the course of an internal audit at the center conducted by its sole shareholder, United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC).
Rosoboronexport gave a 1 billion ruble ($31.8 million) loan to the Center to complete the nuclear submarine for the Indian Navy. The Center transferred half of that amount to the contractor - the Amur shipyard. It is unclear what happened to the rest of the money, Kommersant reports.
USC has applied to the Russian Audit Chamber asking to look into the case. An Audit Chamber source who spoke with Kommersant confirmed that an investigation is underway.
On November 8, 2008, the Akula II class nuclear attack submarine Nerpa was running sea trials in the Sea of Japan in the western Pacific when its freon-based fire extinguisher system malfunctioned, killing 20 of the 208 people on board and injuring 21.
Captain Dmitry Lavrentyev was charged with abuse of power and Engineer Dmitry Grobov was accused of having negligently caused death. The jury found them not guilty on September 14, 2011. Both men were acquitted. The Supreme Court's Military Board overturned the judgment in May 2012 and ordered a retrial.
The Russian Pacific Fleet's Military Court acquitted both Lavrentyev and Grobov once again in April. The ruling was based on the jury's finding.
The Military Prosecutor's Office of Russia's Pacific Fleet appealed the acquittal of the two officers accused of having caused the deadly 2008 Nerpa submarine accident.
If the prosecutors' appeal is granted, a retrial may be staged without a jury, since a recent change in the federal legislation does not allow cases involving classified information to be considered by a jury.
In 2012, Russia leased the submarine out to the Indian Navy for 10 years for $930 million. India's financial support has enabled the shipyard to complete the project.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
The whole P75I program should be scrapped. The very idea of buying 6 subs each from two different sources, with full ToT and then designing and building our own 12 subs, by mixing the best features of the two designs, is never going to fly.
That too considering that we have not yet finalized anything for the second line of foreign subs, by the time the first 2 are made by the foreign shipyard and we start the local assembly/production for the balance 4 subs, it would be another 10-12 years.
After we finish the task of completing local production of 4 subs, the rant will be that all the technical personnel who worked on the scorpene project have by now retired. The cycle will be endless.
If this plan was to succeed, both the line of subs should have started production simultaneously.
We bought the U-209 with full ToT and built two of them. We are now building 6 scorpenes with full ToT and we have also built the arihant and building 2 more similar subs. The complete design and drawings for the U-209 and Scorpene are available with us.
What more technology transfers do we need.
Its time to see how much we have absorbed upto now.
I would rather do the following improve and increase our sub fleet:
1). Sign a contract for 3 more scropenes with AIP, with hopefully atleast a 20% lower cost then the first 6, by trying to indigenize as much as possible.
2). Sanction the construction of 4 SSN/SSGN based on the arihant design. The armament would be 12 Brahmos in VLS tubes, instead of the K-15 VLS tubes and atleast 12 nirbhay missiles to be launched from 533 mm torpedo tubes. Plus 18 Varunastra torpedo and mines.
3). Start designing a new SSK sub, based on experience gained from the U-209 and scorpene programs. Build 6 of these from 2022 onwards.
4). Place order to buy 3 Kilo 636/upgraded with Club missiles, USHUS or further upgraded Indian sonar, Indian batteries and other Indian equipment that has been used in the EKM upgrade program. These would help fill in the nos. and help patrol the littoral waters.
5). Lease 1 more Akula II SSN from the russians, sub will probably get ready by 2018-20 if order confirmed this year.
6). From 2025 start design and building of new follow on SSBN and SSGN design to the Arihant design.
By 2020 the sub fleet would be:
8 Upgraded Kilos (2 retired)
2 Type U-209 (2 retired)
6 Scorpenes
3 Type 636 Kilos (if order placed in the next 1-2 years)
1+1 Chakra
1+1+1 Arihant Class
By 2027 the Sub fleet would be:
4 Upgraded Kilo (Type EKM) (to be replaced by new SSK design subs, as they enter service)
9 Scorpenes
3 Type 636 Kilo
2 New SSK design subs
1+1 Chakra (Lease of the 1st one converted to buy)
3 Arihant Class
2-3 Arihant based SSN, if production started by 2017-18.
By 2032
9 Scorpenes
3 Type 636 Kilo
6 New SSK design subs
1+1 Chakra (Lease of both converted to buy)
3 Arihant Class
4 Arihant based SSN
1 New SSBN (Follow on design from Arihant)
1 New SSN/SSGN (Follow on design from Arihant)
That too considering that we have not yet finalized anything for the second line of foreign subs, by the time the first 2 are made by the foreign shipyard and we start the local assembly/production for the balance 4 subs, it would be another 10-12 years.
After we finish the task of completing local production of 4 subs, the rant will be that all the technical personnel who worked on the scorpene project have by now retired. The cycle will be endless.
If this plan was to succeed, both the line of subs should have started production simultaneously.
We bought the U-209 with full ToT and built two of them. We are now building 6 scorpenes with full ToT and we have also built the arihant and building 2 more similar subs. The complete design and drawings for the U-209 and Scorpene are available with us.
What more technology transfers do we need.
Its time to see how much we have absorbed upto now.
I would rather do the following improve and increase our sub fleet:
1). Sign a contract for 3 more scropenes with AIP, with hopefully atleast a 20% lower cost then the first 6, by trying to indigenize as much as possible.
2). Sanction the construction of 4 SSN/SSGN based on the arihant design. The armament would be 12 Brahmos in VLS tubes, instead of the K-15 VLS tubes and atleast 12 nirbhay missiles to be launched from 533 mm torpedo tubes. Plus 18 Varunastra torpedo and mines.
3). Start designing a new SSK sub, based on experience gained from the U-209 and scorpene programs. Build 6 of these from 2022 onwards.
4). Place order to buy 3 Kilo 636/upgraded with Club missiles, USHUS or further upgraded Indian sonar, Indian batteries and other Indian equipment that has been used in the EKM upgrade program. These would help fill in the nos. and help patrol the littoral waters.
5). Lease 1 more Akula II SSN from the russians, sub will probably get ready by 2018-20 if order confirmed this year.
6). From 2025 start design and building of new follow on SSBN and SSGN design to the Arihant design.
By 2020 the sub fleet would be:
8 Upgraded Kilos (2 retired)
2 Type U-209 (2 retired)
6 Scorpenes
3 Type 636 Kilos (if order placed in the next 1-2 years)
1+1 Chakra
1+1+1 Arihant Class
By 2027 the Sub fleet would be:
4 Upgraded Kilo (Type EKM) (to be replaced by new SSK design subs, as they enter service)
9 Scorpenes
3 Type 636 Kilo
2 New SSK design subs
1+1 Chakra (Lease of the 1st one converted to buy)
3 Arihant Class
2-3 Arihant based SSN, if production started by 2017-18.
By 2032
9 Scorpenes
3 Type 636 Kilo
6 New SSK design subs
1+1 Chakra (Lease of both converted to buy)
3 Arihant Class
4 Arihant based SSN
1 New SSBN (Follow on design from Arihant)
1 New SSN/SSGN (Follow on design from Arihant)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
3 Arihant class and 3 SSBN.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
comment in outlook article:
The Nanavaty case of course became a cause celebre and the trial drew as much public interest as a cricket test match. The court house had overflow crowds, and during the recess, the lawns would be full of people offering namaaz, praying for Nanavaty. When the judge threw out a "not guilty" verdict, calling it "perverse", it was a dramatic finish to high drama.
The Nanavaty case of course became a cause celebre and the trial drew as much public interest as a cricket test match. The court house had overflow crowds, and during the recess, the lawns would be full of people offering namaaz, praying for Nanavaty. When the judge threw out a "not guilty" verdict, calling it "perverse", it was a dramatic finish to high drama.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Well there have been regular stories of wife swapping in the armed forces and specially the navy over the years.Its only now with the increased mediums of mass communications that things are getting highlighted. Cant be condoned. But guess thats the way the ball rolls. Sad for the women trapped in such a situation . It happens all around the world. But keeping our culture and sensibilites in mind its sad that it happens.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
something is really rotten in IN officer's circle.
Proper investigation should be carried out get to root of this issue.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Perhaps there is something rotten but this particular lady's account seems to have a lot of inconsistencies.Sid wrote:something is really rotten in IN officer's circle.
Proper investigation should be carried out get to root of this issue.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
It is difficult to be consistent. She is not a lawyer. And if you are against an establishment, it is nearly impossible. US forces have shown an increase in sexual assault cases. It happens everywhere.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
PM's net security provided in IOR and beyond.
Few days back FI had quoted VADM Satish Soni (next naval chief?)
Plans to establish reach in the Mediterranean and beyond South China Sea – Indian Navy
http://frontierindia.net/plans-to-estab ... ndian-navy
Some more newspapers have quoted, this is the most comprehensive
Few days back FI had quoted VADM Satish Soni (next naval chief?)
Plans to establish reach in the Mediterranean and beyond South China Sea – Indian Navy
http://frontierindia.net/plans-to-estab ... ndian-navy
Some more newspapers have quoted, this is the most comprehensive