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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 21 Jul 2025 13:30
by Cyrano
Does the US provide liability waiver or cap for private companies involved in it's civil nuclear industry?

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 22 Jul 2025 04:45
by Amber G.
Yes, the United States does provide a liability cap and indemnification for private companies involved in its civil nuclear industry -- called the Price-Anderson Act.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 24 Jul 2025 00:08
by Haridas
Tanaji wrote: 14 Jun 2025 13:43 No fair AmberG , I deserve at least partial credit for Q2. :oops: :(( FBTRs are an explicitly required step for thorium cycle as we never had enough Pu stock required for step 3. I guess I misunderstood the question, now that you explained it.
AHWR based Thorium utilization, by using enriched U from internal or imported enriched fuel, was always a option. After IUCNU deal that made most sense for Bharat, an opportunity lost to be ready with field tested design, so that when national economic development demands it ( geopolitical risk mitigation) Bharat can build cookie cutter plants.

As of now, with tremendously inexpensive yet highly automated fuel reprocessing robots have further made AHWR very attractive. Specially with imported LEU, without requiring FBR.

BARC is looking at energy efficient generation of neutron beam source that could be supplementary close loop implementation option.

@Amber ji, thanks for keeping interest of newbies on, and educating in interesting ways.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 24 Jul 2025 00:13
by Haridas
Amber G. wrote: 14 Jun 2025 00:36
Tanaji wrote: 12 Jun 2025 03:53 Without looking :
Q1: either a or b. Saha was an astrophysicist and Kosambi was a mathematician I think
Thanks. (After seeing your answer, I realized my question might have been a little imprecise )..

Q was:
Q1 Which Indian physicist, played a key role in applying nuclear physics to national planning, and was instrumental in the early conceptualization of India's atomic energy program — before Homi Bhabha formalized it?

(a) D.M. Bose
(b) K.S. Krishnan
(c) D.D. Kosambi
(d) M.N. Saha
Correct Answer: (d) Meghnad Saha — but K.S. Krishnan also deserves partial credit for his later institutional role.


Short Answer & Perspective (from a physics-savvy lens):
Let’s be honest — both Saha and Krishnan made major contributions, but in different phases. So depending on what you mean by “key role” and “early conceptualization,” Saha takes the crown — but Krishnan wasn’t far behind when it came to building the actual system.

Why Saha Wins (for this question):

Meghnad Saha was talking about atomic energy in the 1930s–40s, before most people in India even knew what a nucleus was.

He saw science — including nuclear power — as essential to national development.

He pushed hard for state-led planning, wrote extensively on using science for public good, and even served in Parliament doing exactly that.

So while he wasn’t running labs, he was laying the intellectual groundwork and urging political investment.

Krishnan’s Timeline — and Real Contribution:

K.S. Krishnan came into the atomic energy picture more after Independence, late 1940s and 1950s.

He was co-discoverer of the Raman effect, had a strong background in experimental physics (solid-state, magnetism).

He joined the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and helped build its institutional base.

Nehru briefly considered him to head the atomic effort, but chose Bhabha instead.

So yes — Krishnan helped implement, but Saha was already conceptualizing.

D.M. Bose - Early nuclear research (cosmic rays), mentor to Bibha Big contribution in science and Mentoring but - limited role in planning and (politics, so less well known)
D.D. Kosambi - Very famous Mathematician (and Marxist historian); strong in planning, theory, but not involved in nuclear..

How Bhabha Overshadowed Saha and others :

Bhabha had charisma, Tata family connections, and Nehru’s trust.

He wrote the famous 1944 letter to the Tata Trust asking for support — and got it.

That led to TIFR, which became the nucleus (pun intended) of India’s atomic energy program.

While Saha stayed outside the Bhabha-Nehru institutional circuit, Bhabha got full control of the program by the late 1940s.

Atomic Energy Leadership Timeline (Simplified) (For interested people here):

- 1930s–40s Saha Advocated atomic energy in national development
- 1944 Bhabha Proposed atomic program to Tata Trust (via letter)
- 1945 TIFR founded Bhabha becomes de facto leader
- 1948 AEC created Bhabha leads; Krishnan joins commission
- 1950s Bhabha + Krishnan Build institutions and research programs
- 1960's-70's - Many young people (like me and institutes (including IIT's) - became interested in Nuclear Physics and Bhabha's vision ;) )

If the question is about who first brought nuclear physics into the national planning conversation, (d) Meghnad Saha is the clear answer.

But if you're grading generously, K.S. Krishnan deserves a solid partial credit for helping turn the vision into a system — post-Bhabha, but still critical.

Comment on this (and other Q's welcome - I will post my thoughts also)
Meganand Saha's role is less known because of lazy Indian students and education system to rote memorization and cult worship of westernized icons, fair skinned coconut Indians.

Even I did not know about him during my engineering collage days 44 yrs ago, one of my Asst Professor claimed feather on his cap , bcoz he was earlier working at Saha institute in Bengal. Much later I understood Saha's personality.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 24 Jul 2025 03:39
by Amber G.
Haridas wrote: 24 Jul 2025 00:08 <snip>
AHWR based Thorium utilization, by using enriched U from internal or imported enriched fuel, was always a option. After IUCNU deal that made most sense for Bharat, an opportunity lost to be ready with field tested design, so that when national economic development demands it ( geopolitical risk mitigation) Bharat can build cookie cutter plants...
<snip>

BARC is looking at energy efficient generation of neutron beam source...
Good points — particularly the missed opportunity post-IUCNA to have a field-tested AHWR design ready for modular deployment. Given the global pivot toward standardized reactor fleets, that “cookie-cutter” scalability would’ve positioned Bharat well.

The reference to advanced reprocessing automation and BARC’s neutron source initiatives is timely — both are critical enablers for a thorium-driven closed fuel cycle without waiting on FBR maturity.

Thanks for these strategic techno-policy discussions ...:)

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 24 Jul 2025 05:27
by Amber G.
Answering my quiz:
Q3 - A coastal region in India is famous for its black sand beaches rich in monazite, leading to naturally high background radiation. In fact, in some houses there, the annual radiation measured exceeds 50 millisieverts.

Using Amber G.’s favorite unit BED -“Banana Equivalent Dose”- (Popularized in BRF, and quite often used in other places now) approximately how many bananas per year would give you the same dose as living in one of those homes?

(a) 5,000
(b) 50,000
(c) 500,000
(d) 5,000,000,

(Bonus question: “How many bananas would it take to trigger an airport radiation detector?” (A real anecdote once shared on BRF!)
The Banana Equivalent Dose (BED) is a whimsical but educational unit used to express radiation exposure in familiar terms. It was originally introduced by Gary Mansfield, a health physicist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, as a way to communicate small radiation doses using an everyday object — the banana, which contains trace amounts of the radioactive isotope potassium-40 (K-40).

Each banana emits about 0.1 microsieverts (µSv) of radiation.

The concept was later popularized by Professor Richard Muller in his book Physics for Future Presidents, where he used BED to help students grasp scale and context in radiation risk. Here, the BED was effectively adopted and popularized on Bharat Rakshak Forum (BRF) by Amber G., who used it as a relatable, science-literate tool to educate the public during nuclear debates and crisis events (like Fukushima), bringing clarity to otherwise intimidating numbers.

BED has since become a widely shared metaphor in science outreach, particularly for comparing low-level exposures like those from X-rays, flights, or background radiation near nuclear plants.

If you live within 100 km of a nuclear power plant, your annual additional dose from the plant is typically about 1 BED per day — that's roughly few hundred (.5 mSV) bananas per year.
--
In parts of coastal Kerala and Tamil Nadu, black sand beaches are rich in monazite, a thorium-containing mineral. These areas have naturally high background radiation, and in some homes, measurements show annual doses exceeding 50 millisieverts — well above global norms.

Now, the Calculation:
1 banana ≈ 0.1 µSv
50 mSv = 50,000 µSv = 500,000 BED


Correct Answer: (c) 500,000 bananas

Bonus: Airport Radiation Detector Anecdote

A popular story (shared on BRF and elsewhere) tells of a truckload of bananas triggering a radiation alarm at a port or airport. While one banana is harmless, large quantities (~10,000–20,000) can cumulatively set off high-sensitivity gamma detectors,

So yes — in bulk, bananas can raise eyebrows.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 24 Jul 2025 05:56
by Amber G.
Answer to Q4:
Amber G. wrote: 12 Jun 2025 01:42

Just for fun — Can you answer this without looking it up?:


Q4 - A Brfoldie of Bharat Rakshak once posed a puzzle: A uranium sample with 3% U-235 is enriched for reactor fuel. Which of the following enrichment levels is closest to the minimum required for light water reactors?
(a) 0.7%
(b) 3-5%
(c) 20%
(d) 90%

(Comments welcomed ..:) )
Correct Answer: (b) 3–5%

Light water reactors (LWRs), the most common type of nuclear power reactor worldwide (including in India), use low enriched uranium (LEU) as fuel. Natural uranium contains only ~0.7% U-235, which is not sufficient to sustain a controlled chain reaction in LWRs using ordinary water (light water) as moderator and coolant.

To function efficiently in an LWR, uranium must be enriched to around 3% to 5% U-235 — this range balances criticality, fuel life, and safety.

Why not the other options?
(a) 0.7% → This is natural uranium. Suitable for heavy water reactors (like CANDU), not LWRs.

(c) 20% → This is the upper limit of low enriched uranium. Anything beyond 20% is considered highly enriched uranium (HEU). This level is used in some research reactors, not commercial LWRs.

(d) 90% → This is weapons-grade uranium, used in nuclear weapons and some specialized naval reactors — far beyond civilian reactor needs.

Fun fact (often cited on BRF):
Some LWR fuel used in India post-IUCNA uses enrichment of ~4.2% U-235 — right in the typical rang

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 26 Jul 2025 02:39
by KL Dubey
Interesting news from bharat sarkar:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 882334.cms

Bharat is developing three types of SMRs. These are indigenous "Bharat Small Reactors" of various types...separate from SMRs of the foreign companies that are also planning to deploy in Bharat.

As bredicted by credible posters on BRF earlier:
India is developing three different types of small modular reactors (SMRs), including one dedicated to the production of hydrogen, mostly in the form of captive plants for energy intensive industries, Union minister Jitendra Singh said on Thursday
Also, the approach for hydrogen production will be thermochemical instead of electrolysis.
A 5 MWth high temperature Gas Cooled Reactor (GCR) is also planned to be used exclusively for hydrogen production by coupling with a suitable thermochemical hydrogen production process, he said. The potential thermo-chemical technologies for hydrogen production, such as Copper-Chloride (Cu-Cl) and Iodine-Sulphur (I-S) cycles, have already been developed and demonstrated by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), Singh said.
In other words, the SMR heat will directly be used to split water using chemical cycles....instead of first producing electricity to power electrolyzers. This makes sense, since it will not require a power plant (turbine) to be installed at the industrial site.
These plants are designed & developed considering deployment as captive power plants, repurposing of retiring fossil fuel-based plants and hydrogen production to support the transport sector with the prime objective of decarbonisation, Singh said.
Finally, the commercial aspects....it looks like Indian industry is strongly responding:

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/topstor ... elemetry=1
Receiving an overwhelming response from industrial houses to set up Bharat Small Reactors (BSRs), the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL) has extended the request for proposal date till Sep 30.

This comes as NPCIL has already received queries from over two dozen big corporates such as Adani Energy Solution, Reliance Industries, Tata Power, JSW Energy Limited, Jindal Nuclear Power, Jindal Stainless, and Aditya Birla Renewables Limited (Hindalco), among others.

The NPCIL further stated that numerous industrial houses and industries have expressed interest in implementing BSR to achieve their decarbonization targets and have requested an extension of the proposal submission date from June 30. The NPCIL in RFP has said that BSR is for captive use, but the industry can sell the excess power at a tariff decided by them.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 26 Jul 2025 04:57
by Vayutuvan
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/h ... -splitting
Research Focuses On Overcoming Challenges
Challenges remain, however, in the research, development, and demonstration of commercially viable thermochemical cycles and reactors:
  • The efficiency and durability of reactant materials for thermochemical cycling need to be improved.
  • Efficient and robust reactor designs compatible with high temperatures and heat cycling need to be developed.
  • For solar thermochemical systems, the cost of the concentrating mirror systems needs to be reduced.
Exciting progress continues in this field, leveraging synergies with concentrated solar power technologies, and with emerging solar-fuel production technologies.
Mostly still in research phase only. Development and more importantly demonstration of commercial viability are still in to the future. So how far into the future is the billion or even trillion dollar question.

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Posted: 26 Jul 2025 06:14
by Amber G.
KL Dubey wrote: 26 Jul 2025 02:39 I
As bredicted by credible posters on BRF earlier:

..India is developing three different types of small modular reactors (SMRs),..
Yes! A bunch of things we’ve discussed before are now happening on the ground — great to see it shaping up.

- Three types of Bharat Small Reactors (BSRs) — Fully indigenous effort, with real applications in mind.

- One SMR dedicated to hydrogen production, using thermochemical cycles (Cu-Cl and I-S)

- Retiring coal plants being repurposed with SMRs — smart use of legacy infra. Saves cost, land, and time.

- Strong response from Indian industry —. Not just token interest — actual proposals in the pipeline. Even provision to sell excess power.

- BARC seems to ahead of the 'curve' here. Quiet R&D over the years ..

Definitely feels like a coordinated move: science + policy + industry all aligning. If even one of these designs takes off at scale, India will have its own proven SMR track.