There are plans for a sports city and a F1 track in Greater Noida.RamaY wrote:^^^
I am not against Cricket, but wish this money is spent in building a stadium for other sports instead of Cricket.
Infrastructure News & Discussion
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
-
RamaY
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 17249
- Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
- Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
I didn't know/read this. I stand corrected.The state association is paying for it, they aren't getting it for free. If they can pay for it, they should get it.
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
India revs up plans to expand road network.
Manufacturers who set up shop in India in the 1990s often joke they didn't just have to build factories back then, but also roads because it was faster than waiting for the state to build them.
Today, India has the world's second largest road network at 3.4 million km (2.1 million miles). And the national highway network, which doubled in size between 1997 and 2007, stands at an impressive 70,000 km (43,500 miles). But is that enough?
Some say it isn't: transporters complain the quality of roads isn't up to scratch; most highways still have just two lanes and many roads are just paved and not made of concrete.
"We have the best trucks, the most advanced technologies, but what is the use when our roads are so bad?" said Ashwin Agarwal, a transporter with a fleet of more than 80 trucks that criss-cross the country.
"I can never accurately say when the trucks will reach. Invariably, there are delays because our roads are so bad. We need better roads, better infrastructure, it''s the need of the hour."
Agarwal's trucks, packed with auto parts, cover about 350 km (217 miles) a day, or roughly half the distance trucks can normally do on good roads. But he says his expenses are much higher because of greater wear and tear on those roads.
Improving infrastructure
After years of neglect, the Congress-led government voted back to power in May is pushing to build 20 km (12 miles) of roads each day as part of its plans to improve infrastructure in Asia's third-largest economy.
Analysts estimate poor infrastructure shaves an estimated 1 or 2 percentage points off India's annual economic growth, which slowed to 6.7 percent in 200809 after three years of 9 percent or more growth.
India needs to spend $500 billion in the five years to 2012 to overhaul its congested ports and airports, fix its potholed roads and generate more power, the government has said.
Power and roads are expected to lead infrastructure growth, but road construction has been hamstrung by bureaucratic red tape, funding difficulties and land acquisition hassles, which have put off investors and slowed movement of goods and people in a country where roads carry 70 percent of freight and passengers.
"Nobody doubts the size of the road development opportunity, but there are challenges at every stage," said analyst Nitin Bhasin at Noble Group, which rates state highways and roads a better investor bet because of better planning and execution.
"Building 20 km a day is highly ambitious, given the lack of an enabling ecosystem, and especially when considering even China fell short of that with decades of building experience."
Constraints
The World Bank says infrastructure limitations are India's most serious constraint to growth, and the most serious limitation to rapid poverty reduction.
About a decade ago, about 40 percent of India's 825,000 villages lacked all-weather roads.
Under a $34-billion programme partly funded by the World Bank, some 375,000 km of new rural roads will be built until 2010 and nearly the same length improved.
The results are showing already, said Ashok Kumar, senior highways engineer of the World Bank in India: household incomes have jumped by half or even doubled, crop yields have nearly tripled and literacy rates have improved.
For every 1 million rupees ($22,000) spent on rural roads, 163 people are lifted out of poverty, the World Bank estimates.
"Rural roads are a primary requirement for overall growth and development. We cannot afford to neglect them," Kumar said.
But the roads sector is plagued by poor planning and execution, corruption, and huge time and cost overruns: the outer limit of time extension for contracts in the UK is 25 percent, while in India it is about 70 percent, the World Bank estimates.
About 40 percent of road contracts have cost overruns of 25-50 percent, and about 90 billion rupees are locked up in disputes and arbitration.
There is also a shortage of labour: India has 110,000 highway engineers compared to more than 500,000 in China in 1989-97.
Land acquisition is a big challenge, with most tracts of land in India lacking clear title deeds, and growing opposition from farmers against use of land for industrial purposes.
The other major issue is funding; India needs $70 billion for building roads over the next three years, the government says. About half of that is expected to come from foreign investors.
After a series of roadshows abroad, the National Highways Authority aims to get in bids for 6,563 km (4,078 miles) of road projects worth $12 billion in the year to March.
An improving economy and revived interest from foreign and local investors augur well, and developers will gain in experience and confidence as they build more roads, said Tushar Poddar, economist at Goldman Sachs.
Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Standard Chartered, Macquarie, and private equity giants Kohlberg Kravis Roberts and 3i are among the global firms with investments in Indian infrastructure.
"Will we get to 20 km a day? I don''t know. But roads will be built -- with the participation of a lot of local and foreign investors," said Narayan Ramachandran, country head, Morgan Stanley in India.
Transport Minister Kamal Nath has announced a slew of measures including reviewing the process of offering and bidding, changes to the concession and land acquisition agreements, faster approvals and more public-private partnerships.
These have gone down well with Ajit Gulabchand, chief executive of Hindustan Construction Co, which has built more than 2,300 km of highways and 300 bridges, including a cable-stayed bridge in the sea off Mumbai, inaugurated earlier this year nearly 10 years after it was first conceived.
"I feel optimistic. I think the targets are achievable," said Gulabchand, whose company is bidding for new road projects."The money will come. And barring a severe downturn or other unforeseen hiccups, the plan should work."
Manufacturers who set up shop in India in the 1990s often joke they didn't just have to build factories back then, but also roads because it was faster than waiting for the state to build them.
Today, India has the world's second largest road network at 3.4 million km (2.1 million miles). And the national highway network, which doubled in size between 1997 and 2007, stands at an impressive 70,000 km (43,500 miles). But is that enough?
Some say it isn't: transporters complain the quality of roads isn't up to scratch; most highways still have just two lanes and many roads are just paved and not made of concrete.
"We have the best trucks, the most advanced technologies, but what is the use when our roads are so bad?" said Ashwin Agarwal, a transporter with a fleet of more than 80 trucks that criss-cross the country.
"I can never accurately say when the trucks will reach. Invariably, there are delays because our roads are so bad. We need better roads, better infrastructure, it''s the need of the hour."
Agarwal's trucks, packed with auto parts, cover about 350 km (217 miles) a day, or roughly half the distance trucks can normally do on good roads. But he says his expenses are much higher because of greater wear and tear on those roads.
Improving infrastructure
After years of neglect, the Congress-led government voted back to power in May is pushing to build 20 km (12 miles) of roads each day as part of its plans to improve infrastructure in Asia's third-largest economy.
Analysts estimate poor infrastructure shaves an estimated 1 or 2 percentage points off India's annual economic growth, which slowed to 6.7 percent in 200809 after three years of 9 percent or more growth.
India needs to spend $500 billion in the five years to 2012 to overhaul its congested ports and airports, fix its potholed roads and generate more power, the government has said.
Power and roads are expected to lead infrastructure growth, but road construction has been hamstrung by bureaucratic red tape, funding difficulties and land acquisition hassles, which have put off investors and slowed movement of goods and people in a country where roads carry 70 percent of freight and passengers.
"Nobody doubts the size of the road development opportunity, but there are challenges at every stage," said analyst Nitin Bhasin at Noble Group, which rates state highways and roads a better investor bet because of better planning and execution.
"Building 20 km a day is highly ambitious, given the lack of an enabling ecosystem, and especially when considering even China fell short of that with decades of building experience."
Constraints
The World Bank says infrastructure limitations are India's most serious constraint to growth, and the most serious limitation to rapid poverty reduction.
About a decade ago, about 40 percent of India's 825,000 villages lacked all-weather roads.
Under a $34-billion programme partly funded by the World Bank, some 375,000 km of new rural roads will be built until 2010 and nearly the same length improved.
The results are showing already, said Ashok Kumar, senior highways engineer of the World Bank in India: household incomes have jumped by half or even doubled, crop yields have nearly tripled and literacy rates have improved.
For every 1 million rupees ($22,000) spent on rural roads, 163 people are lifted out of poverty, the World Bank estimates.
"Rural roads are a primary requirement for overall growth and development. We cannot afford to neglect them," Kumar said.
But the roads sector is plagued by poor planning and execution, corruption, and huge time and cost overruns: the outer limit of time extension for contracts in the UK is 25 percent, while in India it is about 70 percent, the World Bank estimates.
About 40 percent of road contracts have cost overruns of 25-50 percent, and about 90 billion rupees are locked up in disputes and arbitration.
There is also a shortage of labour: India has 110,000 highway engineers compared to more than 500,000 in China in 1989-97.
Land acquisition is a big challenge, with most tracts of land in India lacking clear title deeds, and growing opposition from farmers against use of land for industrial purposes.
The other major issue is funding; India needs $70 billion for building roads over the next three years, the government says. About half of that is expected to come from foreign investors.
After a series of roadshows abroad, the National Highways Authority aims to get in bids for 6,563 km (4,078 miles) of road projects worth $12 billion in the year to March.
An improving economy and revived interest from foreign and local investors augur well, and developers will gain in experience and confidence as they build more roads, said Tushar Poddar, economist at Goldman Sachs.
Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Standard Chartered, Macquarie, and private equity giants Kohlberg Kravis Roberts and 3i are among the global firms with investments in Indian infrastructure.
"Will we get to 20 km a day? I don''t know. But roads will be built -- with the participation of a lot of local and foreign investors," said Narayan Ramachandran, country head, Morgan Stanley in India.
Transport Minister Kamal Nath has announced a slew of measures including reviewing the process of offering and bidding, changes to the concession and land acquisition agreements, faster approvals and more public-private partnerships.
These have gone down well with Ajit Gulabchand, chief executive of Hindustan Construction Co, which has built more than 2,300 km of highways and 300 bridges, including a cable-stayed bridge in the sea off Mumbai, inaugurated earlier this year nearly 10 years after it was first conceived.
"I feel optimistic. I think the targets are achievable," said Gulabchand, whose company is bidding for new road projects."The money will come. And barring a severe downturn or other unforeseen hiccups, the plan should work."
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
Suraj,
Thank you for your reply concerning the Telegraph article regarding toilets in India.
I had a very unpleasant experience with an Indian toilet many years ago, I won't give details but it was gross!!
This is the reason why I am a bit how shall we say? "Anal" about Indian sanitation.
I have just been doing some research on the Delhi metro, better, more modern & effecient than London's that I have to use.
The thought occured to me, as part of the development of the stations are public toilets being built at each station?
If not why not?
I have heard of Sulubah toilet complexes and know WaterAid do build latrines.
My sister in law works for a large American law firm & regurlarly visits Delhi/Noida.
They stay in very plush hotels and are driven everywhere. One thing that both she and her colleagues have noticed & find disgusting/off putting about India is that next to the fancy hotels and office people are basically $hitting in public.
Do the powers that be in Delhi have a anti $shitting in public infrastructure development plan????
Does anyone care ? or is the attitude, as long as "we" are OK who care what the common man has to put up with.
$hit is a very good source of methane gas fuel and fertiliser (except in pakistan, where it governs the place)
Regards
Haresh
Thank you for your reply concerning the Telegraph article regarding toilets in India.
I had a very unpleasant experience with an Indian toilet many years ago, I won't give details but it was gross!!
This is the reason why I am a bit how shall we say? "Anal" about Indian sanitation.
I have just been doing some research on the Delhi metro, better, more modern & effecient than London's that I have to use.
The thought occured to me, as part of the development of the stations are public toilets being built at each station?
If not why not?
I have heard of Sulubah toilet complexes and know WaterAid do build latrines.
My sister in law works for a large American law firm & regurlarly visits Delhi/Noida.
They stay in very plush hotels and are driven everywhere. One thing that both she and her colleagues have noticed & find disgusting/off putting about India is that next to the fancy hotels and office people are basically $hitting in public.
Do the powers that be in Delhi have a anti $shitting in public infrastructure development plan????
Does anyone care ? or is the attitude, as long as "we" are OK who care what the common man has to put up with.
$hit is a very good source of methane gas fuel and fertiliser (except in pakistan, where it governs the place)
Regards
Haresh
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
Toilets and other facilities at Delhi Metro are inside the ticketed area, to prevent casual visitors from clogging up the stations.
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
Some stations have these facilities outside the ticketed area also,specially the elevated ones.Suraj wrote:Toilets and other facilities at Delhi Metro are inside the ticketed area, to prevent casual visitors from clogging up the stations.
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
Vipin & Suraj,
Thanks for that Info.
Whenever there is any mention of India in the UK press the comments on websites are normally quite bitter.
There is always some reference to lack of sanitation.
Sometime ago I was looking at a photobook about Delhi and its new developments, the new roads, fly overs, the Metro, shopping centres etc.
In one of the photos of the a new Metro fly over, which was very impressive, you could actually see 2/3 slum dwellers in the back ground squatting down taking a $hit, next to some sort of a man made canal.
Do you think enough priority is placed on toilets/sanitation ?
I think if India wishes to project a modernising image it needs to address this issue.
Is there a government post at Central, state, city level to deal with this issue or is it just regarded as an "un sexy" issue?
I get the impression that Indian politico's enjoy standing next to new buildings, roads etc for photo ops but standing next to a series of new latrines in a slum would not have the same effect?
Regards
Haresh
Thanks for that Info.
Whenever there is any mention of India in the UK press the comments on websites are normally quite bitter.
There is always some reference to lack of sanitation.
Sometime ago I was looking at a photobook about Delhi and its new developments, the new roads, fly overs, the Metro, shopping centres etc.
In one of the photos of the a new Metro fly over, which was very impressive, you could actually see 2/3 slum dwellers in the back ground squatting down taking a $hit, next to some sort of a man made canal.
Do you think enough priority is placed on toilets/sanitation ?
I think if India wishes to project a modernising image it needs to address this issue.
Is there a government post at Central, state, city level to deal with this issue or is it just regarded as an "un sexy" issue?
I get the impression that Indian politico's enjoy standing next to new buildings, roads etc for photo ops but standing next to a series of new latrines in a slum would not have the same effect?
Regards
Haresh
British Obsession
This is from the Times, it deals with water/river pollution in India.
Note the comment about the Space Programme.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 984340.ece
By the way can someone in India please tell me, why is this sorry state of affairs allowed to continue, why is there no national Latrine building programme in India??
It would clean things up, provide employment and Indias fertiliser bill would be cut considerably.
Can't organisations like Sulubh and Water Aid just be contracted by the government to build latrines??
Note the comment about the Space Programme.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 984340.ece
By the way can someone in India please tell me, why is this sorry state of affairs allowed to continue, why is there no national Latrine building programme in India??
It would clean things up, provide employment and Indias fertiliser bill would be cut considerably.
Can't organisations like Sulubh and Water Aid just be contracted by the government to build latrines??
Re: British Obsession
There are such programs, but it does not mean people will give up their traditional lifestyle. It needs a change in the attitude that finds nothing wrong in not having a toilet. Without such a change, government money can end up making someone rich with no accountability for action on the ground.Haresh wrote:By the way can someone in India please tell me, why is this sorry state of affairs allowed to continue, why is there no national Latrine building programme in India??
It would clean things up, provide employment and Indias fertiliser bill would be cut considerably.
Can't organisations like Sulubh and Water Aid just be contracted by the government to build latrines??
Dry latrine elimination
Toilet bride
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Whats the big deal about shitting under the skies? Shitting in open fields (khet), behind a bush is probably the most environment friendly and green way about going about it. In an urban atmosphere, i'd agree it's different. Very few centuries ago in Europe, folks used to shit in a bucket and hurl it down the street. They used to bath in a single tub and we know the cliche how it came about: Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Rats infested Europe, and almost a 3rd of the population were wiped out in the plague till Kings and Feudals decided to put money in and send boats to new continents.
Have you realized how they used to wipe their arses before toilet paper was invented and filled stores? I had these conversations on a forum with goras which began after they asked condescendingly if Indians still used toilet paper. They had no answer to how they cleaned arses just till a few decades back and searching on the net i could not find one. But i concluded one. No water was used. They sat, shat and pulled their pants up.
Rather than pee into a dirty, smelly pisspot where i could XYZ disease even touching the tap to wash my hands...i'd any day prefer a nice pee in an open field. Anyone disagree with that?
Have you realized how they used to wipe their arses before toilet paper was invented and filled stores? I had these conversations on a forum with goras which began after they asked condescendingly if Indians still used toilet paper. They had no answer to how they cleaned arses just till a few decades back and searching on the net i could not find one. But i concluded one. No water was used. They sat, shat and pulled their pants up.
Rather than pee into a dirty, smelly pisspot where i could XYZ disease even touching the tap to wash my hands...i'd any day prefer a nice pee in an open field. Anyone disagree with that?
Last edited by harbans on 14 Jan 2010 03:30, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Harbans,
I do agree with you about historical toilet habits in the UK.
However although I do remember visiting the khet when I used to visit relations in India (Hosharpur Dist, Punjab) the problem is disease. Bacteria & viruses can leave in feaces for upto 18 months, the contaminate soil. The most common way that polio is spread is the fecal-oral route.
Also if the feaces were composted for 18 months-2 years it is free from infection and makes good fertiliser as it is high in nitrogen. India could cut it's artificial fertilise bill quite sunstantially.
I think it is good to start discipline people to answer the call of nature in a designated place.
Is there a Urban equivilant of the Rural ??
If not, a Urban Employment Guarantee Scheme should be set up ASAP. Rivers could be cleaned up such as the Ganga & Yammuna, the poor would get the work and the place would just be cleaned up.
When I used to visit India I was always horrified by the lack of public cleanliness, personal hygiene was fine. I think if India wants to be seen as an emerging power it has to tackle this issue.
Do politicians take it seriously?
I used to work with some wealty & influential Indians and they were totally indifferent to the "Common man"
Is there a Minister at National, State, city level who is responsible for Sanitation issues?
Regards
Haresh
I do agree with you about historical toilet habits in the UK.
However although I do remember visiting the khet when I used to visit relations in India (Hosharpur Dist, Punjab) the problem is disease. Bacteria & viruses can leave in feaces for upto 18 months, the contaminate soil. The most common way that polio is spread is the fecal-oral route.
Also if the feaces were composted for 18 months-2 years it is free from infection and makes good fertiliser as it is high in nitrogen. India could cut it's artificial fertilise bill quite sunstantially.
I think it is good to start discipline people to answer the call of nature in a designated place.
Is there a Urban equivilant of the Rural ??
If not, a Urban Employment Guarantee Scheme should be set up ASAP. Rivers could be cleaned up such as the Ganga & Yammuna, the poor would get the work and the place would just be cleaned up.
When I used to visit India I was always horrified by the lack of public cleanliness, personal hygiene was fine. I think if India wants to be seen as an emerging power it has to tackle this issue.
Do politicians take it seriously?
I used to work with some wealty & influential Indians and they were totally indifferent to the "Common man"
Is there a Minister at National, State, city level who is responsible for Sanitation issues?
Regards
Haresh
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
There is no Minister for sanitation though someone should really take this idea up. Jairam Ramesh, the one innovative thinker in the Cabinet, has at least acknowledged the problem by saying India could win a Nobel for lack of sanitation. The Chinese started a no spiting campaign in the run up to some major Games, this should be done in India. It is awful seeing spit flying all over the place. Does NOT make me feel we have a 5000 year civilisation.
But I am way more disturbed, and have been, at our indifference to poverty, corruption and suffering - is that what upset the Buddha so much - the policeman with his blown off leg left to die while Ministers wait around, poor children starving in the cold, Prem Chand writing about the high caste couple working their servant to death and then not even bothering to cremate his body - and Pyaasa showing the same thing - a certain inhumanity which fits in well with pavan Varma's description in "Being Indian". People who expose corruption are being killed, today's TOI front page news about an RTI activist losing his life for exposing corruption. I see also many people who care, and who are kind, and I hope I am wrong to generalise, but we wouldnt have created this massive poverty overhang in our first forty years if we had been sensitised enough about the consequences of "socialist" policies on our people. And corruption would not be so rampant today.
But I am way more disturbed, and have been, at our indifference to poverty, corruption and suffering - is that what upset the Buddha so much - the policeman with his blown off leg left to die while Ministers wait around, poor children starving in the cold, Prem Chand writing about the high caste couple working their servant to death and then not even bothering to cremate his body - and Pyaasa showing the same thing - a certain inhumanity which fits in well with pavan Varma's description in "Being Indian". People who expose corruption are being killed, today's TOI front page news about an RTI activist losing his life for exposing corruption. I see also many people who care, and who are kind, and I hope I am wrong to generalise, but we wouldnt have created this massive poverty overhang in our first forty years if we had been sensitised enough about the consequences of "socialist" policies on our people. And corruption would not be so rampant today.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
kshirin,
Thanks for the reply. Some time ago I read a book called "Spy on the rof of the world" by Sidney Wignal.
Great Himalayan adventure story. He was captured by the Chinese and held for spying (which he was for Indian Intelligence)
In the book there is a description of a Tibetan toilet.
It was just a square building with a hole in the top. As it was used and filled up to the top it was just sealed and a new one was built.
This is the book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spy-Roof-World- ... 1585740691
And this is a picture of a Tibetan loo.
http://www.traveladventures.org/contine ... ce15.shtml
Not to sure what they did with the contents, but after a couple of years it would be fertiliser.
And this is a rather humourous link
http://www.thebathroomdiaries.com/essays/pageasia.htm
It not a very pleasant subject, but after a very unpleasant & embarresing experience in an Indian loo at Phagwara, Punjab I am interested in the subject.
However I just can't get over the indifference to urban sanitation.
Is the subject just not seen as sexy ? How would say a Brahmin react to being given the Sanitation Minister job ?
What is the issue ? If India can produce software engineers and a space programme, then why not toilets?
The toilet that I had my "adventure" in was all piped up, western style. It was a disaster.
Because of the water issue, western style flush toilets are not feasable. Long drop and compost ones are.
I get particulary angry when I watch a program about the Ganga and Benares, all that money down the $hitter on the Ganges Action Plan.
What is happening??
Regards
Haresh
Thanks for the reply. Some time ago I read a book called "Spy on the rof of the world" by Sidney Wignal.
Great Himalayan adventure story. He was captured by the Chinese and held for spying (which he was for Indian Intelligence)
In the book there is a description of a Tibetan toilet.
It was just a square building with a hole in the top. As it was used and filled up to the top it was just sealed and a new one was built.
This is the book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spy-Roof-World- ... 1585740691
And this is a picture of a Tibetan loo.
http://www.traveladventures.org/contine ... ce15.shtml
Not to sure what they did with the contents, but after a couple of years it would be fertiliser.
And this is a rather humourous link
http://www.thebathroomdiaries.com/essays/pageasia.htm
It not a very pleasant subject, but after a very unpleasant & embarresing experience in an Indian loo at Phagwara, Punjab I am interested in the subject.
However I just can't get over the indifference to urban sanitation.
Is the subject just not seen as sexy ? How would say a Brahmin react to being given the Sanitation Minister job ?
What is the issue ? If India can produce software engineers and a space programme, then why not toilets?
The toilet that I had my "adventure"
in was all piped up, western style. It was a disaster.Because of the water issue, western style flush toilets are not feasable. Long drop and compost ones are.
I get particulary angry when I watch a program about the Ganga and Benares, all that money down the $hitter on the Ganges Action Plan.
What is happening??
Regards
Haresh
-
munna
- BRFite
- Posts: 1392
- Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
- Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Punjab's Minister of Local Bodies (in charge sanitation/sewerage board) is a brahmin, Mr Manoranjan Kalia.Haresh wrote: Is the subject just not seen as sexy ? How would say a Brahmin react to being given the Sanitation Minister job ?
What is happening??
Regards
Haresh
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Haresh where in Phagwara, i will be paying visit there in March, and just want to take precaution .
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
munna
Thanks for letting me know. I am just trying to figure out why the issue is not given more urgent attention.
I was watching the NDTV "Greenathon" (NDTV is free in the UK, that's why I watch it). All these volunteers turned up to clean a patch of the Yammuna. I couldn't help but think there is a Rural Employment Gurantee Scheme, why not a Urban Employment Gurantee Scheme ??
So much could be done, trees planted, latrines built & maintained, the Yammuna cleaned.
They have a nice looking presenter, but they didn't tackle the unpleasant subject of $hit!!!!!
If the poor (and let's face it Desperate!) were given jobs to remove garbage from the Yammuna and to build & maintain latrines, the waste once composted could be used to facilitate the planting of trees along the rivers edge ( I have seen this method used in Etheopia, it called an "Arboreo-Loo").
Prem, it was in 1985, do you have relations there???
To be honest I never liked Punjab, always HP especially Shimla, I was at school there for one year.
Regards
Haresh
Thanks for letting me know. I am just trying to figure out why the issue is not given more urgent attention.
I was watching the NDTV "Greenathon" (NDTV is free in the UK, that's why I watch it). All these volunteers turned up to clean a patch of the Yammuna. I couldn't help but think there is a Rural Employment Gurantee Scheme, why not a Urban Employment Gurantee Scheme ??
So much could be done, trees planted, latrines built & maintained, the Yammuna cleaned.
They have a nice looking presenter, but they didn't tackle the unpleasant subject of $hit!!!!!
If the poor (and let's face it Desperate!) were given jobs to remove garbage from the Yammuna and to build & maintain latrines, the waste once composted could be used to facilitate the planting of trees along the rivers edge ( I have seen this method used in Etheopia, it called an "Arboreo-Loo").
Prem, it was in 1985, do you have relations there???
To be honest I never liked Punjab, always HP especially Shimla, I was at school there for one year.
Regards
Haresh
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
See you kuffars!!! Check under ASIA....even Tarrel than Mountain, Deepel than Oceans is mentioned....but, no mention of the Pakis.Haresh wrote: And this is a rather humourous link
http://www.thebathroomdiaries.com/essays/pageasia.htm
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Haresh, absolutely great ideas, if only someone would listen. i sent a suggestion to Jairam Ramesh on their deceptively user friendly feedback facility on the MEF website, i never heard from anybody. But I think if they heard from us they would implement it. An urban egs is a must, Delhi looks like it has been hit bya tsunami, all the trees are gone in the name of the CWG but our hockey teams go abegging and the schools dont have teachers.
My point being, where do we start?
A note of hope -3 idiots is indeed lifted wholesale from Chetan Bhagat's hilarious 5 point someone. Though it is very sad they will not acknowledge it, maybe making it into a film which reaches a wider audience will help kickstart a revolution at the grassroots, there is a discernible increase in the number of articles appearing on the need for a more innovative education system.
My point being, maybe we will be heard someday.
My point being, where do we start?
A note of hope -3 idiots is indeed lifted wholesale from Chetan Bhagat's hilarious 5 point someone. Though it is very sad they will not acknowledge it, maybe making it into a film which reaches a wider audience will help kickstart a revolution at the grassroots, there is a discernible increase in the number of articles appearing on the need for a more innovative education system.
My point being, maybe we will be heard someday.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
kshirin,
Anything is possible if one is determined.
When NDTV have these audience participation shows, they obviously require an audience, why don't you try and get on the show, contact NDTV. What one thinks of the political stance of a media outlet does not matter as far as this is concerned.
Contact the Greenathon woman herself.
If enough people do it then publicity will come.
Why has this Pathak chap from Sulabh International in Delhi not been given some sort of Minister/Senoir adviser post by the Delhi Govt.
When I used to visit India, I only used to use hotel toilets, the rest were to gruesome.
Anything is possible if one is determined.
When NDTV have these audience participation shows, they obviously require an audience, why don't you try and get on the show, contact NDTV. What one thinks of the political stance of a media outlet does not matter as far as this is concerned.
Contact the Greenathon woman herself.
If enough people do it then publicity will come.
Why has this Pathak chap from Sulabh International in Delhi not been given some sort of Minister/Senoir adviser post by the Delhi Govt.
When I used to visit India, I only used to use hotel toilets, the rest were to gruesome.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
The governing system has to be fixed to get things right. Government bodies like muncipal corporations have civil engineers on the staff, but how many actually show up to work? When the corporation was adding drains to our street in Pune (10 years ago), the civil engineer assigned was consistently missing in action after dumping the material at the site. The project got done because I and another person worked with the staff taking time off work to get it completed.kshirin wrote:An urban egs is a must, Delhi looks like it has been hit bya tsunami, all the trees are gone in the name of the CWG but our hockey teams go abegging and the schools dont have teachers.
My point being, where do we start?
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
I always wondered about NREGS and its importance. What I figured out was its a social security scheme for rural folks as agriculture is still an iffy proposition due to monsoons, floods etc. So unless there is demand in urban areas for similar protection there wont be any. Besides urban folks vote enbloc based on divisive politicans whims.Haresh wrote:munna
Thanks for letting me know. I am just trying to figure out why the issue is not given more urgent attention.
I was watching the NDTV "Greenathon" (NDTV is free in the UK, that's why I watch it). All these volunteers turned up to clean a patch of the Yammuna. I couldn't help but think there is a Rural Employment Gurantee Scheme, why not a Urban Employment Gurantee Scheme ??
So much could be done, trees planted, latrines built & maintained, the Yammuna cleaned.
They have a nice looking presenter, but they didn't tackle the unpleasant subject of $hit!!!!!
If the poor (and let's face it Desperate!) were given jobs to remove garbage from the Yammuna and to build & maintain latrines, the waste once composted could be used to facilitate the planting of trees along the rivers edge ( I have seen this method used in Etheopia, it called an "Arboreo-Loo").
Prem, it was in 1985, do you have relations there???
To be honest I never liked Punjab, always HP especially Shimla, I was at school there for one year.
Regards
Haresh
Daily Dose of Brit resentment
While we are on the subject of $hit, look at some of the comments !!
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 989330.ece
More on the other $hit we were discussing later.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 989330.ece
More on the other $hit we were discussing later.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Haresh, Dont mind lekin, its a mark of the Macaulayised expatriate who bring this thing up. VS Naipaul was obsessed with this subject from his early books (India a Wounded Civilization onwards) till about just before late 1990s. And then there is the famous Katherine Mayo and her book that M K Gandhiji called a drain inspector's reprot. And "Slumdog Millionaire" movie has a remarkable scene on that subject.
So leave it.
So leave it.
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munna
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Re: Daily Dose of Brit resentment
Haresh the issure here is not simply of open and unhygeinic defacation and urination but a larger one. The core issue is of urban and rural sanitation infrastructure which like other things government funded is full of leakages and fund pilferage. If this were to be a cultural issue as popularized by the West then please check out the toilets of "Haveli" on Phagwara road near Jalandhar or infact any other decently placed private institution. The issue of sanitation is deeply linked to funding and overall state of public infrastructure and shall improve in sync with it.Haresh wrote:While we are on the subject of $hit, look at some of the comments !!
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 989330.ece
More on the other $hit we were discussing later.
The subject of $hit is another urban myth on lines of "Hindu Rate of Growth", give us some more years and then they shall be discussing the best employers to work for in India.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
ramana & munna,
Maybe I am seeing it from to much of a western point of view, having been born here.
Maybe I am a "Macaulayised expatriate".
I suppose the goras will always find fault with all things Indian, while very conveniently forgetting the underage mothers & veneral disease, obesity and decline amongst them.
Strangly enough I have just finished reading a Naipaul book "An area of darkness"
Can you tell me what is your experience of overseas born Indians who have returned to the Mother Country ?
Are they happy, disillusioned, do they leave after a few years ?
Regards
Haresh
Maybe I am seeing it from to much of a western point of view, having been born here.
Maybe I am a "Macaulayised expatriate".
I suppose the goras will always find fault with all things Indian, while very conveniently forgetting the underage mothers & veneral disease, obesity and decline amongst them.
Strangly enough I have just finished reading a Naipaul book "An area of darkness"
Can you tell me what is your experience of overseas born Indians who have returned to the Mother Country ?
Are they happy, disillusioned, do they leave after a few years ?
Regards
Haresh
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Try this link. http://neoindian.org/Haresh wrote:Can you tell me what is your experience of overseas born Indians who have returned to the Mother Country ?
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Karan Dixit
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
I was eating my breakfast when I opened this thread. Boy, that was a big mistake. It is needless to say that I lost my appetite. I knew that it was not a good idea to be reading BENIS thread while drinking hot beverage but now I also know that avoid reading India - UK thread while eating something. Thanks gurus!
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
http://peterandrobmakelistsofthings.blo ... eople.htmlpgbhat wrote:Try this link. http://neoindian.org/Haresh wrote:Can you tell me what is your experience of overseas born Indians who have returned to the Mother Country ?
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
The sanitation issue is just not a priority. If you look at political slogans, they revolve around "garibi hatao" and "bijli sadak pani". Maybe it will get attention after the basics are done - probably even not then - unless there is a change in attitudes where voters start asking for and rewarding action on sanitation.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
A well known academic friend who went to Korea was stunned when asked the Q by a schoolgirl,"why do you Indians eat in private and defecate in public"? Good sanitation is the foundation for good health and Indian Railways toilets which simply dispose of their "deposits" onto the tracks below for those walking by the lines to enjoy are an abomination.In fact it was very recently when visiting a friend's place in the country that one experienced the olfactory and visual "pleasure" of the villagers' equivalent of cowpats along the village road outside his land! One of the reasons for this phenomenon is that the priority given to public health is pathetic,where most slums have no public toilet facilities provided at all and good toilet manners taught in non-elitist schools are also low on the priority list.
Here is a wake-up call to the UK not to "punch above its weight" and the threat from AlQ both from the Telegraph .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... warns.html
Al-Qaeda has successfully restructured its global network and now has the capability to carry out a wide range of terror attacks against Western targets, according to a detailed U.S. intelligence assessment that has been conducted in the wake of the failed Christmas Day Detroit bomb plot.
Excerpts:
Here is a wake-up call to the UK not to "punch above its weight" and the threat from AlQ both from the Telegraph .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... warns.html
Al-Qaeda threat: Britain worst in western worldBritain cannot continue 'punching above its weight' militarily, Kim Howells warns
Britain cannot go on ''punching above its weight'' militarily by sending troops to the world's trouble spots, Kim Howells, the chairman of the parliamentary committee which oversees the intelligence services, has warned.
15 Jan 2010
Kim Howells, chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, said Britain cannot go on "punching above its weight" militarily Photo: REUTERS
The former foreign office minister said the public was ''increasingly dubious'' about seeing Britain's armed forces repeatedly fighting at the ''very, very sharp end'' of international missions in countries like Afghanistan.
Dr Howells, chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, called last November for Britain’s 9,500 troops to be brought home early from Afghanistan to allow resources to be focused on counter-terrorism measures in Britain.
Dr Howells told The Independent: ''I think we believe we have a bigger punch than we have and a lot of that rests on the superb professionalism of the armed forces.
''When the UN needs a force that's actually going to do the business, they look to the Americans and the British. They don't look to other people.
''So when there have been big problems – Sierra Leone, Bosnia – it's our troops who have been there at the very, very sharp end, in places of great danger.
''It can't continue.''
The Pontypridd MP, who is standing down from Parliament at this year's election, said that the ''extraordinary'' scenes in Wootton Bassett on the return of bodies of soldiers killed in Afghanistan showed that the public want to honour the dead.
But he added: ''They feel increasingly dubious about sending our troops on these missions.
''The more the reality of those casualties and the awful injuries is made available to the public, the more doubt there is about the wisdom of sending our troops to distant places with all of those risks.''
After Labour came to power in 1997, Dr Howells served as a minister in the departments of Education, Trade and Industry, Culture, Media and Sport, Transport; and finally the Foreign Office.
Since October 2008 he has chaired the Intelligence and Security Committee which oversees MI5, MI6 and other intelligence agencies.
Over 21 years as an MP, Dr Howells has earned a reputation for being outspoken.
As a culture minister in 2002, he dismissed the Turner Prize exhibition as ''cold, mechanical, conceptual --------'' on a comment card at Tate Britain.
In 2006 he defended the prospect of a successful future for Iraq, saying the country was ''starting to look like the sort of mess that most of us live in''.
Email Print
Al-Qaeda has successfully restructured its global network and now has the capability to carry out a wide range of terror attacks against Western targets, according to a detailed U.S. intelligence assessment that has been conducted in the wake of the failed Christmas Day Detroit bomb plot.
Excerpts:
American officials now believe Britain poses a major threat to Western security because of the large number of al-Qaeda supporters that are active in the country. Two years ago Jonathan Evans, the head of MI5, estimated that there were 2,000 al-Qaeda sympathisers based in Britain – the largest concentration of al-Qaeda activists in any Western country. But American officials, who regularly refer to “Londonistan” because of the high concentration of Islamic radicals in the capital, believe the figure is growing all the time. They point out that recent al-Qaeda terror attacks planned in Britain have been the work of British-based Muslims, many of whom have been trained in al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
With al-Qaeda’s leadership under intense pressure from Nato and Pakistani security forces, there are reports that scores of British activists are now travelling to Yemen and Somalia to attend al-Qaeda training camps and receive instructions for carrying out terror attacks against Western targets.
“The level of al-Qaeda activity in Britain is becoming a major source of concern,” said a senior State Department official. “The organisation’s ability to use Britain as a base to plot terror attacks constitutes a serious threat to the security of Britain and other Western countries.”
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
ramana & munna and all others,
While I can understand the point of view that Indian expatriates are looking at things from a Macaulayised POV,
If it can lead to positive action what is the issue?
I have just found this news item, from a village not to far from my mothers in Punjab, it concerns a Canadian NRI
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... 4%26um%3D1
Vera_K you are absolutly right but what I can not understand is that although the slogans might all be about "garibi hatao" and "bijli sadak pani" you can't uplift the poor without sanitation, there is no dignity in sewage.
I know a militant buddhist here in the UK. He defends Mayawati to the hilt. As a matter of principle I never under any circumstances get involved in Indian politics, I don't live in India but in London, so I have no right to.
However I said to this chap, what is the point of building all these statues, surely the money would be better spent on sanitation??
He honestly didn't see the big deal.
This is a link to a programme which aired in the UK called "Bite me" it covers different countries but this one relates to India, the Ganga in this snippet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXRup4_ZnAo
In other parts of the documentary he covers parasites which infect people via the fecal oral route, due to bad sanitation. Intestinal worms are a big problem.
I think sometimes people who look at things from outside can put a different perspective on things.
If India want to be seen as a future super power it has got to sort the sanitation issue out.
I was looking at a photo collection about Delhi and there was this fabulous picture of the new Metro, with neon advertising in the back ground. When I looked more closly at the picture there was a group of men squatting down & dumping, Is this really the image that you wish western visitors to see?? 
Sorry if this has offended anyone.
Regards
Haresh
While I can understand the point of view that Indian expatriates are looking at things from a Macaulayised POV,
If it can lead to positive action what is the issue?
I have just found this news item, from a village not to far from my mothers in Punjab, it concerns a Canadian NRI
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... 4%26um%3D1
Vera_K you are absolutly right but what I can not understand is that although the slogans might all be about "garibi hatao" and "bijli sadak pani" you can't uplift the poor without sanitation, there is no dignity in sewage.
I know a militant buddhist here in the UK. He defends Mayawati to the hilt. As a matter of principle I never under any circumstances get involved in Indian politics, I don't live in India but in London, so I have no right to.
However I said to this chap, what is the point of building all these statues, surely the money would be better spent on sanitation??
He honestly didn't see the big deal.
This is a link to a programme which aired in the UK called "Bite me" it covers different countries but this one relates to India, the Ganga in this snippet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXRup4_ZnAo
In other parts of the documentary he covers parasites which infect people via the fecal oral route, due to bad sanitation. Intestinal worms are a big problem.
I think sometimes people who look at things from outside can put a different perspective on things.
If India want to be seen as a future super power it has got to sort the sanitation issue out.
I was looking at a photo collection about Delhi and there was this fabulous picture of the new Metro, with neon advertising in the back ground. When I looked more closly at the picture there was a group of men squatting down & dumping, Is this really the image that you wish western visitors to see??
Sorry if this has offended anyone.
Regards
Haresh
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sanjaykumar
- BRF Oldie
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
However I said to this chap, what is the point of building all these statues, surely the money would be better spent on sanitation??
He honestly didn't see the big deal.
Au contraire $hit is civilisationally defining for India-it means negation of materialism, the comfort of maya. Just as $hit turns to dust in the hot Indian sun so does maya evaporate with penance.
He honestly didn't see the big deal.
Au contraire $hit is civilisationally defining for India-it means negation of materialism, the comfort of maya. Just as $hit turns to dust in the hot Indian sun so does maya evaporate with penance.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Dr Bindeshwar Pathak's Sulabh has triggered a social revolution
http://www.goodnewsindia.com/index.php/ ... sulabh/P0/
http://www.goodnewsindia.com/index.php/ ... sulabh/P0/
Haresh wrote:If India want to be seen as a future super power it has got to sort the sanitation issue out.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
A passion for excellence lavished on toilets in India.
http://goodnewsindia.com/index.php/Maga ... n-success/
http://goodnewsindia.com/index.php/Maga ... n-success/
Indians can build nuke bombs but they can't build decent toilets
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
The Chinese had a series of "patriotic hygiene campaigns" in the 1950s and later where they taught handwashing, latrine construction, eradication of vermin, recognition of hookworm infection etc.kshirin wrote: The Chinese started a no spiting campaign in the run up to some major Games, this should be done in India.
These campaigns were quite successful in improving public health and hygiene.
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
The article below illustrates why the sanitation issue can not be solved by money alone, but needs a change in attitudes. This reminds me of the slum in front of my apartment - most of the slumdwellers have at least one apartment in a good part of the city, but prefers to rent out the apartment for money while continuing to live in the slum.
India Failing to Control Open Defecation Blunts Nation’s Growth
India Failing to Control Open Defecation Blunts Nation’s Growth
The southeastern state of Andhra Pradesh is a good example. Earlier this decade, the state government helped build 2.95 million household latrines in rural areas. Residents got subsidies worth about $16 in cash plus coupons for 100 kilograms (220 pounds) of rice. Half the toilets went unused or were being used for other purposes, a February 2007 World Bank report found.
Roomier Than Homes
In the western state of Maharashtra, 1.6 million subsidized toilets were built from 1997 to 2000. About 47 percent are in use.
Many toilets are designed without thinking about who’s going to use them, says Payden (who goes by one name), the WHO’s New Delhi-based regional adviser on water, sanitation and health. Some of the new toilets were roomier than homes.
“The toilets were much stronger and safer, so they used them for storing grain instead,” she says.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Why leave it? What is Macaulayised about expecting basic sanitation facilities?? Open toilets have a huge impact on the spread of infectious diseases apart from sensory assault. All this talk about how Europeans did it prior to toilet paper and sewers, Naipaul and Slumdog is not relevant here.ramana wrote:Haresh, Dont mind lekin, its a mark of the Macaulayised expatriate who bring this thing up. VS Naipaul was obsessed with this subject from his early books (India a Wounded Civilization onwards) till about just before late 1990s. And then there is the famous Katherine Mayo and her book that M K Gandhiji called a drain inspector's reprot. And "Slumdog Millionaire" movie has a remarkable scene on that subject.
So leave it.
Perception is not always reality but perception is what counts. On hand Indians see themselves as an emerging power; on the other hand the Indian state can not provide the basics 10 KMs from the PMO.
Why is it educated Middle Class Indians find it acceptable that the lower class not have access to such basic human necessities? Does the GOI lack the money to provide inexpensive Sulabh type facilities even if sewage connections are not available? http://www.sulabhinternational.org/st/a ... oilets.php (Sulabh toilets start at $10 and go as high as $1000
)There is absolutely no reason for Indians to tolerate such apathy towards their basic needs when the solutions are so easily accessible and just require some political will and social awareness.
Though I am a bitter critic of CPP style diktats, there are times when they make sense. Provide facilities and then make the use of open toilets an offense.
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
I'd agree. Some civic sense needs to be knocked into the public and the ruling class.
Otherwise India will end up a unsanitary hell hole.
Otherwise India will end up a unsanitary hell hole.
Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion
Why do you think Middle Class Indians find it acceptable? How is the responsibility of Middle Class or even for that matter GoI to provide the facilities. The only problem I see is that GoI tolerating the open defecation, once that stops, the facilities will come and people will either build them or will be willing to pay for them.VikramS wrote: Why is it educated Middle Class Indians find it acceptable that the lower class not have access to such basic human necessities? Does the GOI lack the money to provide inexpensive Sulabh type facilities even if sewage connections are not available? http://www.sulabhinternational.org/st/a ... oilets.php (Sulabh toilets start at $10 and go as high as $1000
There is absolutely no reason for Indians to tolerate such apathy towards their basic needs when the solutions are so easily accessible and just require some political will and social awareness.
How is that you can afford to pay for a mobile phone, but still find it acceptable not to own a toilet in your home.
Isn't it the responsibility of lower classes to build the basic facilities for themselves. Ask any Slum for a space to build toilets and see the response. For that matter even try to shift the Garbage dump or ask them to throw the Garbage in the Municipality bins.
Somehow everything has to be done by GoI or governments? When will people realize their own responsibilities? Sometimes I think we Indians are still time-warped during the British rule, blame everything on the government.
Govt is not doing this, that and not providing facilities for free...
Re: Infrastructure News & Discussion
milindc,
I think you are right to a certain extent about people in India expecting the govt to do everything for them.
When I last visited India many years ago, it was a visit to the khet, I covered it up with dirt afterwards and my uncle asked me why, I explained that if flies sat on it, they would then sit on food and that would be the "infection cycle".
In that part of Punjab all the villages now have indoor/attached latrines.
I think if training/education courses were more widely then people could be left to build there own latrine infrastructure. The gov't can & should offer advice, but at the end of the day people have to help themselves. I have noticed a fatalistic attitude amongst some of my relations, they expect the Sarkari to do every thing.
Have a look at this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6hU1lpWr08
I think you are right to a certain extent about people in India expecting the govt to do everything for them.
When I last visited India many years ago, it was a visit to the khet, I covered it up with dirt afterwards and my uncle asked me why, I explained that if flies sat on it, they would then sit on food and that would be the "infection cycle".
In that part of Punjab all the villages now have indoor/attached latrines.
I think if training/education courses were more widely then people could be left to build there own latrine infrastructure. The gov't can & should offer advice, but at the end of the day people have to help themselves. I have noticed a fatalistic attitude amongst some of my relations, they expect the Sarkari to do every thing.
Have a look at this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6hU1lpWr08