South India River Water Issues/Disputes

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 Dec 2011 22:41

http://waterresources.kar.nic.in/projects.htm

large map showing that most of upstream cauvery was actually under mysore. hemavathy & shimsha basin is a major part of kaveri basin. and all of hemavathi and shimsha basin was under mysore.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Dec 2011 07:18

Aditya_V wrote:
Dileep wrote:^^What kind of bloody stinking LIE is that? There were no attacks anywhere in Kerala. A few days ago, there were road blockages, but pilgrim vehicles were allowed to pass.

On the contrary, several KL vehicles are attacked in TN. Even now, many people are stuck there, fearing for their lives. Shops and establishments owned by Keralites are being attacked in Chennai. There were visuals on TV.

I am sorry to say this. TN is behaving exactly like Pakis. And our govt is behaving exactly like SDREs, ie cowering in the dhothies, trying to please for life!!

Where in Chennai, I have lot of Mallus as freinds here? Nobody has been attacked or there is no such news in Chennai- unless TN media has completely blacked this out and being a big city none whom I know has been in the area where the attack hapended.

Dileep, see the Telegraph India link, they clearly mentions TN registered Vehicles are being stoned and 7 trucks with TN registration being set on fire.

See here: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 026412.cms

CHENNAI/KOCHI: The concern about a likely breach of the 116-year-old Mullaperiyar dam on the Kerala-Tamil Nadu border was on Wednesday overshadowed by the bigger concern about a likely breach of relations between the two states as disruptive developments in both the states threatened to widen their disagreement over the dam.

While stones were allegedly pelted at Sabarimala pilgrims travelling to Kerala, shops owned by Keralites were targeted in Tamil Nadu.

In Chennai's central T Nagar shopping area, an eatery and some jewellery shops owned by Keralites were targeted on Wednesday. There were also stone throwing incidents at a bakery and a tea shop run by Keralites in Saidapet area.

Meanwhile, the security has been stepped up in the city.

The violence was also reported from Coimbatore against shops owned by Keralites. The display shelves of KR Bakes near the Coimbatore railway station were broken in the attack by a gang, while some others shouted slogans in front of three jewellery outlets that are headquartered in Kerala.

Chief minister Jayalalithaa Jayaram cautioned against any move that would jeopardise the goodwill between the two states, and appealed to Keralites not to succumb to the machinations of "mischief mongers".

Aditya, what happened is Dinamalar started a rumour about stone pelting, Jayalalitha gave authenticity to that by making a statement (as reported in the link you posted), and see what happened?

The Telegraph article looks like fabricated. No other news source reported it, not even the TV channels who camp there. If there was any truth in that, it would have been quoted in the articles about the violence in TN. It would definitely be not in the lines of stones were allegedly pelted at Sabarimala pilgrims travelling to Kerala.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Dec 2011 07:46

Why I call the Tamil Response to the Mullaperiyar issue as Pakiness.

1. Disregard of human life in preference of H&D.
- Kerala clearly offered to build a new dam at own expense, and give water to TN, but TN refused to even discus
- Insists that dam is safe, despite visible proof of leakage and damage.
- Calls for court settlement, despite the fact that lives are threatened. Does not even agree to talk
2. Use of Lahori Logic.
- They often bring in the Kallanai barrage, which is a few feet high, built in the plains to divert water and storing hardly any water, in comparison with the dam that is 150 ft high, stores 15 TMC water in the hills.
- They often claim that the flood will not cause damage, as Idukki dam can hold the water, disregarding the fact that there are tens of thousands of people living downstream.
3. Spreading of LIES
- They always claim that Kerala refused water, which is not true
- They always claimed that Periyar is inter-state river, which is not true
- They published a diagram of the proposed new dam showing a height of 140ft, and claiming that it can't give water. The documents from Kerala says it is 175ft.
- They claim that the land of the dam is in reality owned by a king of Tamil lineage, while there is documentary evidence of that king ceding it to the Travancore king.

4. Manipulating the Investigations
- Refused to allow Indian Navy to conduct underwater inspections.
- Refused BARC doing seepage water analysis.
- Falsifies seepage water measurement by restricting it to the water in the gallery
- Hosted the investigation teams in defiance to protests by Kerala
- Falsified the status of repairs. Refused neutral supervision of repairs.

5. Use of violence whenever there is an issue.
- Recent incidents. Starting to attack shops when a rumour of alleged pelting of stones.

If it looks like shit, smells like shit, and even tastes like shit, it probably is SHIT! Yes, Tamils are showing nothing other than Pakiness in this issue.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 08 Dec 2011 08:35

^^^
Dileep,

Bredator drones are circling and have struck for much less. Suggest you edit.

habal · Post by **habal** » 08 Dec 2011 09:18

Two of my father's colleagues, one was a chief engineer CPWD and another was a judge who went on centre-brokered fact-finding missions in Mullaperiyar dam and TN were heavily bribed by the then TN govt. They suddenly got into money and sent their kids to US and later on emigrated post the fact-finding. Some rumors have it that TN state govt has created a reserve corpus of 500cr always at hand to bribe any Mullaperiyar commission or committee.

vina · Post by **vina** » 08 Dec 2011 09:56

habal wrote:Two of my father's colleagues, one was a chief engineer CPWD and another was a judge who went on centre-brokered fact-finding missions in Mullaperiyar dam and TN were heavily bribed by the then TN govt. They suddenly got into money and sent their kids to US and later on emigrated post the fact-finding. Some rumors have it that TN state govt has created a reserve corpus of 500cr always at hand to bribe any Mullaperiyar commission or committee.

. This is getting hilarious. Let me put it in bullets.

1) CPWD Engg & Judge after visiting Mullaperiyar set their kids to the US and then emigrated later. Hence, they must have been bribed by TN. How about the hundreds of CPWD engg and Judges, who didnt visit Mullaperiyar whose kids went to the US and the parents migrated later ? I am sure they too were bribed by the TN Govt.

2) TN Govt has created a 500 cr fund for bribes. So if any commission or committee on Mullaiperiyar rules against Kerala, it must have been bribed.

With ground rules like this, no wonder one feels that if there is any sanity left in Kerala at all on this! A 500 cr reserve for bribing, why if such a thing existed, it would be stolen by the TN politocos themselves first and there will be nothing to give to anyone!

habal · Post by **habal** » 08 Dec 2011 10:05

ok fine I will also add two rotl icons since this seems to be the in thing . .

sure some of that corpus will be stolen by TN politicians too. What is the big deal ? The present Kerala AG Dandapani is also a similar character. His wife was pleading on behalf of TN in the high court and this gentleman 'representing Kerala' declares the dam is safe in his submission to the high court.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Dec 2011 10:39

Theo_Fidel wrote:^^^
Dileep,

Bredator drones are circling and have struck for much less. Suggest you edit.

Well, if predators think that a carefully explained and articulated opinion is cause for one click ban, so be it. If a predator finds exception with the post and edits it out himself, so be it. You are an involved party, Theo, (and I don't accuse YOU of any pakiness either). I am not going to oblige you.

vina · Post by **vina** » 08 Dec 2011 10:41

habal wrote:The present Kerala AG Dandapani is also a similar character. His wife was pleading on behalf of TN in the high court and this gentleman 'representing Kerala' declares the dam is safe in his submission to the high court.

There we go again. The top law officer of the Kerala govt goes and submits to the high court that the dam is safe and somehow, "He Must Be Corrupt To Say So " ,How ? Because I think so and oh, his wife was the solicitor for TN!

.

As if the Kerala Govt's law officer can go and put his personal opinion on behalf of the Kerala Govt in front of the court and whatever he submitted hadn't been gone over with a fine toothcomb and cleared with the Govt. And even if it did , there would have been such a howl of protest that he would have been fired and the govt would have withdrawn the submission on precisely such a ground and as a lack of facts. Such simplistic conspiracy and corruption theories .. they bought out the AG, they bought out the politicos, they have a war chest of Rs 500 crores are beyond hilarious and are best suited to Pakiland and not Kerala.

How about some simple things like this for eg, The Kerala AG must submit facts on behalf of the Govt of Kerala.Maybe he was stating the facts about the dam. Doing otherwise will be a serious case of perjury that can result in prison terms for everyone, including the chief secretary of the govt of Kerala. Your politicos can scream otherwise, but that is how things work.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Dec 2011 10:46

It is an official fact that TN have a budget allocation of Rs 100 Crore for Mullaperiyar 'expenses'. It is an official fact that GoK launched an investigation into this. It is also an official fact that the same investigation died out without any action or report. One more official fact is that several top babus are serving as consultants to GoTN. Yet another is that the fact finding missions almost always accept TN hospitality (despite protests by KL) during the trips. At least for the sake of visible neutrality, they should have avoided this.

There are allegations that several politicians and babus have a lot of real estate in TN, especially Theni district. There are also allegations that GoTN is collecting a list of such 'expenditures', and that is when the Kerala politicos started back-pedaling, including apologies. There is a long standing belief among us Keralites that TN is bribing the politicos and babus. These are 'allegations', which will never be proven.

vina · Post by **vina** » 08 Dec 2011 10:55

Dileep wrote: You are an involved party, Theo, (and I don't accuse YOU of any pakiness either). I am not going to oblige you.

You dont need to oblige anyone, but yourself. Frankly, I find this rhetoric by Kerala about safety and ONLY a new dam will suffice ( I posted on how you might not NEED a dam at all in Thekkady if you store the water in TN) way over board and frankly orchestrated and engineered (esp with the Dam 999 thingy).

And yeah, I AM an involved party. I don't know where you live in Dera Mahab Ali, but I have folks who live in Kalamaserry and THEY will be drowned if the Periyar floods catastrophically, I have folks in Allepey and yes I have folks on the TN side as well where the Mullaperiyar waters flow.

There seems to be a total sense of hysteria and theatrics on this in Kerala , on the verge of being unhinged. Sure, that political melodrama is par for the course, but unless finds out what the "real motive" is (is it safety, then there are multiple solutions possible and a rational choice can be made amicably), but if it is a trojan horse, this will go on without end.

So coming back to the point. Oblige Yourself. What is it you want. Safety, or politicking under the guise of safety to reopen existing agreements.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 08 Dec 2011 11:11

Merge Kerala and TN to create a single state. Issue solved. Of-course there will be onlee one CM. Can't help if some politicos become unemployed...

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Dec 2011 12:05

vina wrote: You dont need to oblige anyone, but yourself.

that obligation is to edit the post. I am not gonna do it.

Frankly, I find this rhetoric by Kerala about safety and ONLY a new dam will suffice ( I posted on how you might not NEED a dam at all in Thekkady if you store the water in TN) way over board and frankly orchestrated and engineered (esp with the Dam 999 thingy).

Well, why not TN propose that? I would definitely agree to that proposal! But it must come from TN. KL proposed what it can, which is to build a new dam at own cost and give water to TN as per agreement.

Why, dear Vina, does TN refuse to talk? And why (could you speculate with your immense analytical powers that often leaves me spellbound?) do they not agree to any proposal for a safety evaluation, such as Navy Divers? Why are they appear disingenuous?

And yeah, I AM an involved party. I don't know where you live in Dera Mahab Ali, but I have folks who live in Kalamaserry and THEY will be drowned if the Periyar floods catastrophically, I have folks in Allepey and yes I have folks on the TN side as well where the Mullaperiyar waters flow.

I live close to the IT hub, at a location easily flooded. My estimation is that my place will face a rather slow rising flood of a few feet.

There seems to be a total sense of hysteria and theatrics on this in Kerala , on the verge of being unhinged. Sure, that political melodrama is par for the course, but unless finds out what the "real motive" is (is it safety, then there are multiple solutions possible and a rational choice can be made amicably), but if it is a trojan horse, this will go on without end.

We have a saying in malayalam "നട്ടുച്ചയ്ക്ക് അരിയും കൊണ്ടു ചെന്നാല്‍ നടക്കാത്ത കാര്യം നട്ടപ്പാതിരായ്ക്ക് ചാമയും കൊണ്ടുചെന്നാല്‍ നടക്കുമോ?" (something that is impossible to get/achieve by taking rice during noon could not be achieved by taking jowar at midnight)

Even with all these, TN is sitting like അരകല്ലിനു കാറ്റുപിടിച്ചതുപോലെ (like wind blowing over a grinding stone). Why do they refuse to even TALK? I don't get it!!

So coming back to the point. Oblige Yourself. What is it you want. Safety, or politicking under the guise of safety to reopen existing agreements.

Safety and nothing else!!

Yes, there is a qualifier. It should not only be SAFE, but it must be CONVINCINGLY SAFE.

1. No amount of declarations, affidavits and assurances by GoTN would suffice, unless those are backed by tangible and enforceable guarantees, like a sovereign underwriting of all collateral damages at a convincingly specified rate. (like Rs 1 Cr per life, and Rs 1Cr per acre of land lost, plus collateral damage as assessed by an international agency)

OR, the TN CM and secretariat moving to Vandiperiyar town, within a height of 20ft from the stream bed would do. (and please, no helipad around)

2. Any court decree will not suffice. No, we do not trust courts to make a call on these technical matters. We don't want to follow Rajan Pillai of Britannia.

3. No amount of guarantees by any technical committees would suffice, unless every piece of their supporting evidence is made open-source, so that it could be validated by any competent source.

What I absolutely don't care are:

1. The 999 year term. You can keep it.
2. Water from the catchment area above MP. You can take all of it.

Once again, there are qualifiers.

If we spend our tax money to build a new dam, you can't expect to freeload on it. The agreement will have to change. The only guarantee is you will continue to get the water you had been getting all these years. at a fair price that is to be negotiated in the new agreement. Maybe the same price you pay KA for Kaveri water, or something like that. A 999 term will also go.

Don't want that? Come with a proposal that convincingly offer safety. We will accept it. For example:

1. Reduce the height of water to, say less than 50 feet, and store water in TN.
2. Build a new dam at TN expense.
3. Bring in a visibly neutral technical team to evaluate the safety, including complete underwater imaging, earthquake analysis etc, and make the evidence open-source, so that there could be open discussion and all concerns addressed.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 08 Dec 2011 12:43

Do we have a law that gives states power to make null and void any agreement it may have signed with other states if certain number of MLAs (high number such as >50% or even as high as 66%) pass a motion in state legistative assembly or a vast majority of affected area MLAs want the agreement revoked?

If not, I think we should have it...what is the point of democracy if people are unable to have their writ in their state and are obliged to stick to agreements signed FEW GENERATIONS ago?

is it not possible to change Indian constitution barring some portions if certain number of elected members agreeing to it? There should always be a reasonable exit clause in any contract including our constitution?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Dec 2011 14:11

‘Serious damage’ to masonry of Mullaperiyar dam detected

Looks the the Dam is indeed and unsafe and correction works needs to be done to correct it.

But I hope madness like yesterday attack on Joy Allukkas in Chennai on Malyalis in TN and Tamils in Kerala stops along with the hype that 50 lac people in Kerala will die immediately.

The topic should be addressed in a mature fashion to see how the new dam can be built without affecting the water being transferred to TN.

Can a new dam using modern techniques be built a few hundred feet behind the existing dam as a Back stop or Goalkeeper in Football, I know there will be environmental consequences considering the dam is in the Periyar Tiger reserve? The Old dam can go on until it collapses.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Dec 2011 15:56

If TN is going to foot the bill, ANY convincing solution is welcome. For example, maybe a roughly hewn rock dam could be built below the current dam. If the dam breaks, the rock dam will hold the sudden surge of water.

If KL is footing the bill, we must build a proper dam and make TN pay for the water.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Dec 2011 16:13

a 2nd dam can only hold the water if the original dam is demolished in a controlled (slow) manner to let the water level build up to the design level. if instead the old dam collapses you are going to have concrete pieces weighing 10s of tons being pushed at speed by the wall of water....its will destroy any new dam or rock dam as well without half trying.

I have seen the power of surging water on concrete first hand during floods in assam...sturdy bridges rated to 70t being demolished, broken into pieces and dumped 100s of mts downstream by small shallow rivers that flow from bhutan into the brahmaputra...very nice and placid in winter.

dont know the topography, but one soln could be build some large reservoirs and pump out the water from this weak dam everyday and keep its level lower to ease the pressure....again just like new dam these "solutions" take years to implement.

> the TN CM and secretariat moving to Vandiperiyar town, within a height of 20ft from the stream bed would do. (and please, no helipad around)

a great idea. I suspect it will find few takers in the political elites

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Dec 2011 16:59

Singha wrote:a 2nd dam can only hold the water if the original dam is demolished in a controlled (slow) manner to let the water level build up to the design level. if instead the old dam collapses you are going to have concrete pieces weighing 10s of tons being pushed at speed by the wall of water....its will destroy any new dam or rock dam as well without half trying.

I have seen the power of surging water on concrete first hand during floods in assam...sturdy bridges rated to 70t being demolished, broken into pieces and dumped 100s of mts downstream by small shallow rivers that flow from bhutan into the brahmaputra...very nice and placid in winter.

dont know the topography, but one soln could be build some large reservoirs and pump out the water from this weak dam everyday and keep its level lower to ease the pressure....again just like new dam these "solutions" take years to implement.

> the TN CM and secretariat moving to Vandiperiyar town, within a height of 20ft from the stream bed would do. (and please, no helipad around)

a great idea. I suspect it will find few takers in the political elites

Sir if I am right the issue is there is no concrete in the old dam and it only brick powder mixed with Sugar

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Dec 2011 17:52

^

in that case I will stage a tactical repositioning to the lifeboats asap

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 08 Dec 2011 18:30

one thing is if MP is full bcoz of rains, then isn't it likely that Idukki will also be near its capacity? Also as theo mentioned, in the worst scenario, apart from the washed dam, there will be other debris. All this will eventually make idukki also unusable.

i dont understand why fukk around when the right thing to do is apparent. the point is TN can take this risk because if there is a major disaster, it only takes marginal economic hit. KL cannot because it's loses are higher and unrecoverable.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 08 Dec 2011 20:07

Just so we are all talking about the same thing. Here's a section through present dam. Old dam uses Surki in center as water proof barrier. Rubble/Mortar facing. Surki is not an acceptable hydraulic barrier.

New dam should be built after taking down old one. don't mess with it.

Also note we are arguuing about the levels 136' -152' at the very top of the dam. About 10% though overtunning force makes it more important.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Dec 2011 00:55

Dileep wrote: What I absolutely don't care are:

1. The 999 year term. You can keep it.
2. Water from the catchment area above MP. You can take all of it.

Once again, there are qualifiers.

If we spend our tax money to build a new dam, you can't expect to freeload on it. The agreement will have to change. The only guarantee is you will continue to get the water you had been getting all these years. at a fair price that is to be negotiated in the new agreement. Maybe the same price you pay KA for Kaveri water, or something like that. A 999 term will also go.
Don't want that? Come with a proposal that convincingly offer safety. We will accept it. For example:

Hmmm...so what is your stance on the agreement again? It is little confusing. Say, if everybody sings Khumbaya and a new dam gets built or the existing one is made 'safe' as per modern safety norms and to the satisfaction of people, are you for or against the old contract (a.k.a 999 yrs lease) ?

Previous references:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1199575
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1199578

So first you start blaming the TN politicians, which is probably the right thing to do, eventually you descend to blaming 'Tamil'. As if tamilians are any differnt than Malayalees or anybody on this planet. It is clear it is emotional, when people start dissing each other - because they lost trust in their elected government.
First thing to solve is the issue of 'trust', the sooner it is better for both States.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Dec 2011 06:16

Read my statement again. The point is, IF KL foots the bill, THEN, the 999 agreement goes. If TN foots the bill, you keep the agreement.

It's money honey!! You can't continue to enjoy the same benefits after we spend money and do what you should have done in the first place. Don't like that? Make the dam convincingly safe, and keep the agreement.

See, KL gets no benefit from the dam. It is your dam. It is your responsibility to keep it safe. It is you who screwed up in that responsibility. We agreed to spend money to protect our asses.

No. You can't have the cake and eat it too. The agreement goes if we spend the money. The agreement stays if you spend the money.

Now, about being emotional. Yes, I am goddamn emotional. You would be, if your own ass is on line.

You want to have TRUST? Sure!! We should TRUST the words of Jayalalitha and believe that the damned dam is safe. TRUST is a mutual thing, dear sir, and TN flatly refuses to even talk. No, I don't trust GoTN, TN politicos or lately the TN people who says MP is safe.

And you are trying to distinguish the GoTN and the people of TN. IMHO, that is like Musharraff citing non-state actors!!

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Dec 2011 06:22

The proposal by KL is to build the new dam and use siphons to fill it, equating the levels. The old dam will be then demolished and taken away.

The new dam will not survive the onslaught if it is left dry and the old one just breaks. A rock pile, if built with sufficient mass, will hold back the surge for sure. How big? I don't know. I don't even know how to guess. It is an inferior, compromising solution than building a new dam.

The problem with storing water in TN is, there is no space. In MP, water is stored between hills. There are no hills in TN side. If there was any possibility to do that, TN would have done it long ago.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2011 08:09

the rock pile thing is called a cofferdam and is made upstream of construction site of real dam to divert the river temporarily (few yrs) into tunnels which disgorge downstream of the construction site. its not meant to be permanent soln and is subject to failure - my uncle was a electricity board engineer and showed me one such project called karbi langpi in assam...a few months later the cofferdam broke and though no lives were lost, a lot of construction eqpt got washed away.

wouldnt make any bets on cofferdams as permanent solns.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Dec 2011 08:38

Oh maan, what a thread. I visited for the first time. I still did not understand what is the problem.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Dec 2011 09:38

Finally, someone in Kerala, who actually seems to be able to think and with no hidden agendas and yes, they hit the nail on the head.

Problem is this. TN used the MullaPeriyar basically as a "reservoir", ie an overhead tank in the mountains that can be used to draw the water by "opening the tap" (ie, opening the gates) as and when needed. They didnt really invest in storage capacity downstream. True, the tank and lakes existed (including giant ones) and in the old days, used to get fed water from Vaigai when it surplussed. All that was allowed to largely degrade /atrophy . Vaigai dam came up later. Ramnad district got shafted the most in the bargain when the Vaigai was dammed up. So, there you are. There is water storage capacity that needs to be fully used /augmented in TN side. Don't store the water in Kerala.

This unwillingness to invest and expand storage and use Kerala as the "Overhead tank" (to be fair, that place was absolute wilderness a 100 years ago) is the essence of TN's "Pakiness" in this issue. Kerala's Pakiness is trying to reopen the 999 year accord by other means, when it has no legal basis to do so.

Greens Say NO To Big Dam at Mullaperiyar, Say Yes to Diversion Weir
The environment activists are also seriously questioning Tamil Nadu's argument for raising the water level in Mullaperiyar dam and the increasing demand for more water.

In 1895 when the dam was built there were no storage structures in TN. "Now they are having storage facilities at Vaigai Dam as well as decentralised storage in many tanks along the command area. In fact it is learned that in recent years, TN has been building a lot of tanks on both sides of a new canal system (number 18 canal) from the lower camp powerhouse," says Dr. Lata.

Dr Lata's contention is that it is now possible for Tamil Nadu to store the diverted waters as they are already having a fair storage. This, she says, is clear from analysing the available figures: The gross storage at Mullaperiyar at full reservoir level (152 ft) is 15.66 TMCft. The live storage capacity at FRL is 10.56 TMC ft (299 MCM). Maximum live storage available since 1979 (@136 ft) is 6.1 TMC ft (172.75MCM). The storage available at Vaigai dam (commissioned in 1959) is 6.09 TMC ft (172.5MCM). Cumulative storage capacity of numerous tanks that are already built or are being built or planned to be built is not available, but is understood to be fairly large.

Lata also points out that almost 5 TMC ft of water in Mullaperiyar is dead storage which has never been used by TN since the tunnel entry starts at 104 ft. A point below which no water can be drawn. Hence is there a need to build such a huge dam?

Another aspect is that at present, TN is actually diverting at least 75% of the total annual quantity during the monsoons. During the last several years, the storage at Mullaperiyar at the end of monsoons was around 130 ft, a live storage of less than 5 TMC ft. The catchments of Mullaperiyar receive both South- West and North- East monsoons, while the command areas in TN receive only North-East monsoons. Hence, the farmers can and are using the diverted water for irrigation during the South-West monsoon period.

All these would prove that in order to provide water to TN at similar quantities as in the past, a large storage is not needed on Kerala side. Hence, a possible sustainable option can be immediate reduction in storage level at the present dam so as to reduce the water pressure on the old dam (to 120 ft initially as required by the Kerala state government and to 110 ft subsequently) and simultaneously increase the storage facilities on the TN side and explore the possibility of either strengthening the existing structure with a permanent reduced storage level or go for a new structure at a substantially reduced height and storage than that proposed at present by the Kerala government, says Lata.

So, net net, around 21TMCFT of water is taken out of MullaPeriyar to TN in a year. Some 6 to 7 TMCFT of water can be stored in the historical tanks and bunds in the command area if repaired and rejuvenated. You probably need to find some 6 to 7 TMCFT storage if you want to use 100% of the water at Mullaperiyar (and suck even the lake dry..not a good idea, but maybe the lake can make do with 2 TMCFT and the Kerala land mafia can build "Jungle Lodges" and "Hotels" around the lake) , which I think is unused anyways, since Ramanathapuram gets shafted out of Vaigai waters largely with the current arrangement. So yeah, drill another tunnel beneath the Kumuli saddle and size it to get the peak water flow (15k/20k cusecs/whatever) and you possibly can have even Ramnad go to 2 to 3 crops a year. Places in Madurai district (Sholavandan, Vadipatti, Melur etc) are extremely fertile with Periyar irrigation and had 3 crops a year of paddy.

In fact, the Kerala proposal of a dam BELOW the current one too will have a pretty huge reservoir and flooding and land loss (below the current dam), if they are going to use the existing tunnel to build take the water out. That will be one pretty high dam as well and will be quite expensive. So even there it makes sense to build a new tunnel , I think it will be more cost effective to build one than build a much bigger dam.. In any case a fresh tunnnel will be called for.

So just keep the existing dam as is, as a check dam, with water lowered down to some 25/30 feet (below the current dead storage level) and a fresh tunnel evacuating the max possible flow from some 50 to 60 feet below the current one. So everyones is happy. Everyone's H&D is saved (the current dam stands.. it stores hardly any water, so no problem), Vaiko , Amma, Dr Artiste and the rest of the folks can claim victory. Congress - Mani and Actchu dudes can claim 400% safety and 500% victory, everyone happy no one in Kerala needs to spend any money or even move a finger, the land mafia in Idukki will be thrilled, they can encroach now without any fear of getting drowned (both upstream and downstream) ,run more "jungle tours" and "jungle lodges" around the lake and build on the river bed, my folks in Kalamassery and Allepey will not be washed away into the sea (at least not due to the Mullaperiyar dam break, they definitely if Idukki dam breaks though, so Dileep, now you know which dam is REALLY the problem)..

Yawn.. so not much. Just that it will call for some real political leadership on the TN side and say, okay we might possibly have to build a small dam somewhere just inside Ramnad and we will be fine and yeah, it will all cost around a $1b and water rates will rise long term and you can get an IMF loan for this . I think JJ is the best person to drive this and run away with the credit. Her political base is in that area (as is Vaiko's) and she can really get this done and emerge as the Great Thalaivi /leader.

Even Chidambaram dude will be happy. Dry areas like Tirupattur, Sivagangai, and other areas in Chettinad could see their tanks and irrigation bunds currently strewn with thorns and brambles and empty for some 3 to 4 generations could see water in them and you can see finally drinking water problems in all those places solved.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Dec 2011 10:22

Vina, you still are toeing the Vaiko line that Kerala is doing all these just to change the agreement. Do I see clay where your feet are supposed to be?

The change in agreement is demanded ONLY (I repeat, ONLY) if KL spends money to get safety. Any solution that does not make KL spend money will leave the agreement unchanged.

Right now, GoK is contemplating something that I don't agree with. They seem to have given up on TN showing humanity (let alone seeing reason) and proposed to build a back-up dam to be left dry that might hold the water when the current dam breaks. TN can do whatever they want with the current dam.

(At least after this, will you stop the Vaiko line, Vina? Or would you consider it as a chankian ploy by the cunning yindoo (oopsie, malloo))

I don't like it because:

1. It will have to be built ten times stronger than a filled up dam, and going to cost money
2. That is complete capitulation to TN's greed, insensitivity and inhumanity (aka Pakiness)

In fact, I LOVE the idea of opening a tunnel and taking all the flowing water away without storing. That sure is the BEST solution. Any dam do have a risk element associated with that, whether built by KL or TN.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 09 Dec 2011 10:30

Just a note.

Such a tunnel has been proposed by TN for the Parambikulam-Aliyar system and Kerala has shot it down and is demanding a new treaty.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Dec 2011 10:31

Vina, you are THE GURU of analysis, so I don't have to tell you why we don't worry about Idukki.

Idukki is OUR dam. We get all the benefits, and we carry all the risks. It is also under our control. If our govt fails to keep it up, we can work with our govt without prejudice and get it fixed. (or vote their asses out, or block their asses from moving around or whatnot)

In case of Mullaperiyar, we are left with just the risk. Nothing else. No benefits, and no recourse to the management of that risk. That is the problem.

I welcome your solution. I am sure every keralite, including those who take decisions on behalf of us would like it too.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Dec 2011 10:44

Theo_Fidel wrote:Just a note.

Such a tunnel has been proposed by TN for the Parambikulam-Aliyar system and Kerala has shot it down and is demanding a new treaty.

Source?

The GoTN Policy document http://www.tn.gov.in/policynotes/pdf/pwd_irrigation.pdf doesn't say anything about it. It says the agreement is scheduled for renewal, and discussions are going back and forth. Of course, KL asked for more water, which TN of course refused.

There is no safety concerns here. The real problem there is, TN often refuses to release the water they have agreed to give to KL. In Mullaperiyar, there is no such contention. The original agreement says you can take all the water. No disputes! (Thank god! If there was sharing involved, it would have been impossible to arrive at a solution)

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 09 Dec 2011 10:52

Just for the record, who actually 'owns' the dam in question? TN?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Dec 2011 11:25

^^Yes, they own, operate, (pretend to)maintain, and use it under a 999 years lease.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Dec 2011 12:41

Dileep wrote:Right now, GoK is contemplating something that I don't agree with. They seem to have given up on TN showing humanity (let alone seeing reason) and proposed to build a back-up dam to be left dry that might hold the water when the current dam breaks. TN can do whatever they want with the current dam.

(At least after this, will you stop the Vaiko line, Vina? Or would you consider it as a chankian ploy by the cunning yindoo (oopsie, malloo))

Indeed. That idea "empty dam" sitting there as "insurance" is so half a$$ed and so incredible that it cannot be anything other than show boating to some ill informed kerala public and a means of fanning hysteria on "safety".

In fact, if I can sit in front of the computer and in 10 mins type out a "feasible (whatever that might mean) solution" to the issue (fool proof safety, water for TN and preserving the eminently preservable lake and the Periyar Reserve ecosystem), and this is not rocket science, the Kerala River Society /whatever folks published in the Manorama online, said exactly similar things (I just went a step further, the Manorama folks solution will still see the dam used as a "surge pond" /"capacitor in EE analogy" , because the discharge as current is far less than the max inflow of upto 20k cusecs and the lake /dam height needs to be 104ft and 5 TMCft of dead storage has to exist) , the Kerala water resources management experts would have thought of this in 5 seconds flat and presented it.

The problem is easily amenable to solution if it is a clear cut problem as articulated. That is why I believe that the real "problem" is not this, but Kerala's Pakiness in trying to reopen the accord.

Think of this. If the issue was REALLY about safety, Kerala can easily approach the supreme court on the grounds of public health and safety (heck , even the Fundamental Rights in India are subject to those) and pass a law saying that we cannot let you store water above 110 ft (allowing for a surge in storage during peak monsoon) (I think they did that) and clearly say "Take ALL the water, but DONT store it in Kerala" , because we get Dhoti Shivers about the dam.

Sure, TN will argue the dam is safe, it will go to court, the court will appoint a truly independent panel of experts and dispose the case on it's merits and see what can be done on it in terms of best solution.

Consider what is actually happening. When the matter is sub judice, Kerala gets reports made by IIT-Roorkee and IIT Delhi , which TN will simply throw into the trash as not "independent" , doesn't wait/plead/ask the court to appoint an independent panel, and goes on to conclude the dam is "unsafe" (it might well be,I concede),Kerala politicos get very paki and prevent even laying/repairing of electrical cables to dam for the gates (which now are operated by diesel gensets!), be obstructionist in every way, whip up hysteria on safety (quoting IIT D and IIT-Roorkee) , propose a new dam as the ONLY solution, Atchu and Mani dudes go on fast saying the existing dam needs to be pulled down and a new dam under Kerala's control be put up and an apocalyptic Dam999 films mysteriously gets made right for the occasion!

That really gets the Bull$hit Meter go woot-woot all around and lets one feel the actual agenda is to reopen the 999 year deal and get control of the river. The "safety" and "new dam owned by Kerala" are actually Paki like attempts to change facts on the ground (possession is 9/10ths of the law remember?) and create negotiating positions and leverage. Jaded politico /Stratejee/PissNesss/YummAndYea types like me know this instinctively when it doesn't pass the smell test.

If only Oomen Chandy,Atchu and Mani dudes and Kerala govt simply went on fast saying "Don't Kill us, Take the water with you to TN and keep the dam level below 100 ft" and not opened their mouth about a new dam at all , it would have sounded more credible. In the absence of that with all the "agit-prop", the fundamental agendas become suspect and leads to hardening of positions on the other side.

In fact, I LOVE the idea of opening a tunnel and taking all the flowing water away without storing. That sure is the BEST solution. Any dam do have a risk element associated with that, whether built by KL or TN.

I am not sure that is what the Kerala Politicos want. They want control of the river (by creating new facts on the ground. the dam is TN property and cant be screwed around with) and then decide on a de facto "water sharing" unilaterally , by saying okay, here is the water we can spare , take it.

There really is no solution to that kind of Pakiness. Sure Kerala can try, they will whip up more paranoia and do more agit-prop, this thing will wind itself through the courts, the court will appoint an independent panel and that will be the basis for things going forward and concerns logically addressed. The rest is just pure political show boating from Kerala and the TN politicos.

So , just get some popcorn , pull up a chair and watch the "tamasha".

See what I mean ? More political grandstanding. Kerala Assembly Meents on Mullaperiyar. A Special One Day Assembly meets and what does it ask ? NEW DAM, not "safety" mind you, but a New Dam, with the "corollary" being safety.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Dec 2011 14:24

>>I am not sure that is what the Kerala Politicos want. They want control of the river (by creating new facts on the ground. the dam is TN property and cant be screwed around with) and then decide on a de facto "water sharing" unilaterally , by saying okay, here is the water we can spare , take it.

the dam is in Kerala's land. It doesn't need anybody's permission to do what it wants.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Dec 2011 14:57

habal wrote:the dam is in Kerala's land. It doesn't need anybody's permission to do what it wants.

Maybe in a "Democratic Peoples Republic of Kerala" where Thiruvanathanpuram was called as "Namboodirigrad" and Kochi was called "Gopalangrad" .

But unfortunately, it is now plain Jane Kerala, a state within the union and there is something called "Right To Property" which is a fundamental right and you can do diddly squat without due process and full legality.

And oh, given the "tamasha" that is happening, I think you should look forward to sequels like Dam 999 - 2, Dam -999 -3 and so on book your tickets in advance ,along with a few buckets of popcorn. This isn't going to end anytime soon with attitudes like this.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Dec 2011 16:16

But unfortunately, it is now plain Jane Kerala, a state within the union and there is something called "Right To Property" which is a fundamental right and you can do diddly squat without due process and full legality.

that's rubbish. My neighbour doesn't have any water source in his property and pleads with me for water from my well and I give him access to the well. Now the well is in disrepair and needs to be repaired. I explain the situation to the neighbour and he shouts obsceneties at me.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Dec 2011 16:27

The only thing missing is the political gonads. There is nothing else that prevents KL from taking over the dam by executive action.

The only power centre have upon the cabinet is to dismiss it. But if they really want, they can do what they want before the centre moves.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Dec 2011 17:04

Dileep wrote:The only thing missing is the political gonads. There is nothing else that prevents KL from taking over the dam by executive action.

The only power centre have upon the cabinet is to dismiss it. But if they really want, they can do what they want before the centre moves.

I think some Youth COngress guys did some mischeif following which Jaya demanded CISF cover for the dam.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Dec 2011 17:43

build checkdams along all tributeries feeding Mullaperiyar. Kerala govt doesn't need anybody's permission to do it. Make it a citizens initiative and all estates and properties surrounding can build one on their feeder streams.