Indian Naval Discussion

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 22 Sep 2009 16:58

Made-in-India 'INS Shivalik' to be inducted soon

INS Shivalik is the first stealth frigate to be designed and built in India. It’s a matter of great pride for the country. It should be ready to enter service in Navy in November,’’ said director-general of naval design, Rear Admiral M K Badhwar

INS Shivalik Indian made stealth frigate / warship to be inducted in Navy

INS Shivalik the all Indian designed and made stealth frigate is to be inducted in Navy soon. INS Shivalik the 5300 tonne frigate will be armed with deadly mix of foreign and indigenous weapon and sensor systems. The INS Shivalik is currently undergoing pre-commissioning sea trials.

NS Shivalik is named for the Shivalik hills, a hill range in the Himalayas spanning 2500 km. The crest of the ship INS Shivalik depicts the Shivalik range and the Ramadao sword. INS Shivalik is the first ship to use high-strength steel developed and produced in India, all the previous vessels used imported steel.

•Class and type: Shivalik class frigate
•Displacement: 4,600 tons
•Length: 142 metres (470 ft)
•Beam: 17 metres (56 ft)
•Draught: 4.5 metres (15 ft)
•Propulsion: CODOG
•2 x Pielstick diesel engines
•2 GE LM-2500 gas turbines
•Speed: 30 knots (56 km/h)+
•Complement: 257 (incl 35 officers)
•Armament: 76mm SRGM
•2 x AK-630 CIWS
•24 x Shtil SAM
•16 x Barak SAM
•8 x VLS 3M-54E Klub or BrahMos cruise missiles
•90R ASW missiles
•DTA-53-956 torpedoes
•RBU-6000 (RPK-8)

•Named after: Shivalik hills
•Builder: Mazagon Dock Limited
•Laid down: 11 July 2001
•Launched: 18 April 2003
•Commissioned: 2009
•Aircraft carried:2 x Sea King Mk.42B or HAL Dhruv

INS Shivalik has stealth features of the Shivalik-class frigates, including inclined surfaces, which reduce their radar cross-section. To reduce the noise signature, the designers have gone in for low-noise propellers, propulsion devices and machinery, as also vibration damping.

Launch of INS Shivalik will sure be a milestone in India’s defence history.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Sep 2009 17:26

Those are from INS Shivalik wiki and incorrect, displacement full load should be 5,600 tons not 4,600 and 32 not 16 Barak SAM. I believe VLS launchers can only handle Klub.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 22 Sep 2009 18:01

John wrote:Those are from INS Shivalik wiki and incorrect, displacement full load should be 5,600 tons not 4,600 and 32 not 16 Barak SAM. I believe VLS launchers can only handle Klub.

Thank you for the updated information.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 22 Sep 2009 18:29

can someone provide the link about how quickly SHTIL SAM can be fired from launcher one after another,i guess its slower process than VL system

John · Post by **John** » 22 Sep 2009 21:49

The reload time is 6-12 secs for shtil-1 it listed on rosoboronexport site.

Nikhil T wrote:‘‘INS Shivalik is the first stealth frigate to be designed and built in India. It’s a matter of great pride for the country. It should be ready to enter service in Navy in November,’’ said director-general of naval design, Rear Admiral M K Badhwar. The Project-17 to construct three stealth frigates — the other two, INS Satpura and INS Sahyadri, will be delivered in 2010-2011 — at a cost of Rs 8,101 crore at Mazagon Docks has, of course, been plagued by delays ever since it was approved by the government in 1997.

Switching to new design rather than build a improved variant of Shivalik for P-17A is right move. Looking back Shivalik is an achievement from its GE turbines to its combat management system but apart from numerous delays there were few other problems.

Basing P-17 on the Talwar design and enlarging it to increase its range and to accommodate 2 helos proved to be the wrong choice. Ultimately ended up with the vessel nearly the size of Delhi with all limitations of the former. Which is the armament is about the same as Talwar with exception of twin vs single RBU launchers, Talwar does have an air search radar (Positiv) which Shivalik doesn't have.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 22 Sep 2009 22:17

John wrote:The reload time is 6-12 secs for shtil-1 it listed on rosoboronexport site.

Basing P-17 on the Talwar design and enlarging it to increase its range and to accommodate 2 helos proved to be the wrong choice. Ultimately ended up with the vessel nearly the size of Delhi with all limitations of the former. Which is the armament is about the same as Talwar with exception of twin vs single RBU launchers, Talwar does have an air search radar (Positiv) which Shivalik doesn't have.

Shivalik actually has a lot of space to acommodate Pozitiv-ME, which was dropped together with Kortik CIWS (allegedly not meeting the op requirements) for no reason, it's a very modern and accurate radar which allows search and engagment of low-level targets. The Barak FCS will not make up for this deficiency so this may be one of the things to rectify some time later.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 22 Sep 2009 23:02

A Further line of conventional subs is required.We need to augment our 4 U-209s and Kilos with at least one type with Brahmos (upgraded Kilos or Amurs),as the Scorpene project is delayed and has had a major cost overrun.The IN needs at least 24+ conventional subs with at least half with AIP ,plus 12 SSBNs and SSGNs (Arihants and Akulas).There are several options,one immediate way is to add to the number of U-209s with acquiring a few more advanced fiuel-cell AIP subs,as the German-Greek deal has failed,leaving Germany with a finsihed sub on its hands to offload,U-214 subs which Pakistan is lusting after and which Germany has had second thoughts of selling given Pak's notorious reputation.India could strike a quick bargain here.Details of the failed Greek order given below.

The reason Greece refused the sub was due to their technical shortcomings. Even if the Germans offer them to us at a relatively lower price, why should we buy given it's design flaws. The Germans aren't giving us the non-magnetic hull or other technologies on U212. Going with the Italian-variant of Lada with local production at L&T shipyards would be a better choice as it relieves MDL off some of it's to-be-done projects and brings in the private sector.

The Italian Amur doen't necessarily have to be 1000 ton sub. It's just a design waiting for customers. The Russians and Italians would happily oblige if we ordered 10-15 subs with 2000-2500 ton displacement.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Sep 2009 23:03

SNaik wrote:
Shivalik actually has a lot of space to acommodate Pozitiv-ME, which was dropped together with Kortik CIWS (allegedly not meeting the op requirements) for no reason, it's a very modern and accurate radar which allows search and engagment of low-level targets. The Barak FCS will not make up for this deficiency so this may be one of the things to rectify some time later.

The model displayed during Shivalik's launch showed it with large planar array radar and Kashtan (Model image. I am guessing it was omitted when switch was made to Barak. Lack of secondary air/surface search radar is a weakness.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 22 Sep 2009 23:07

Isn't the Barak-8/II suppose to be replacing these in the future?

John · Post by **John** » 22 Sep 2009 23:10

Anurag wrote:Isn't the Barak-8/II suppose to be replacing these in the future?

Barak 8 is medium range system and will replace the shtil, based on CGI model of P-15A Barak will still be used for point defense along with ak-630.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 22 Sep 2009 23:12

Btw, what in the world is DRDO's BC25-Chanakya listed on Wiki. Seems like some kind of joke...Chanakya BC-250C??

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 22 Sep 2009 23:28

Indian Naval ship INS Bedi decommissioned

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 22 Sep 2009 23:31

CCS discusses Navy's new acquisition plan

New Delhi, Sep 22 (PTI) The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) today discussed acquisition of 10 warships and 80 radars for the Navy aimed at strengthening coastal security, identified as a priority after the Mumbai attacks.

The 10 warships -- six frigates with advanced stealth features and four corvettes -- would be built indigenously beginning 2010 and would be delivered before 2017, Defence Ministry sources said.

These warships would be built at an average cost of Rs 2,800 crore each, they added.

The Navy was originally interested in buying five of these 10 ships from abroad, as Indian shipyards' order books were currently full and the foreign shipyards would be able to deliver them within a short duration, they said.

However, Defence Minister A K Antony had pressed for ordering the warships with Indian shipyards to boost indigenisation and the domestic defence industry.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 23 Sep 2009 00:04

arun wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Project 15A Destroyer INS Kochi To Be Launched This Week
The "Official" MoD press release of the launch of the Kochi.

The next one to be called Kohima?. That's the only state capital with a "K" I can think of:
How about Kolkata (Culcutta)

Press Information Bureau
Government of India

Wednesday, September 16, 2009

Ministry of Defence

PROJECT 15-A DESTROYER, INS KOCHI TO BE LAUNCHED ON 18 SEP 2009

17:22 IST

The second of the three Project 15-A stealth destroyers will be launched on 18 Sep 09 by Mrs Madhulika Verma, wife of Admiral Nirmal Verma, Chief of the Naval Staff. The 6500 ton ship, to be named INS Kochi, is being built by Mazagon Docks Ltd in Mumbai. Designed indigenously by the Directorate of Naval Design, these are a follow-on of the existing Delhi Class destroyers – INS Delhi, INS Mysore and INS Mumbai.

The ship has advanced stealth features, which make it less vulnerable to detection by enemy radar and will be fitted with state-of-the-art weapon systems which include the supersonic BrahMos surface-to-surface missile, the LRSAM Long Range Surface-to-Air Missiles and the MFStar multi-function radar system providing accurate data on surface and air targets. In addition, the ship’s close-range defence capability will be boosted by four AK-630 rapid-fire guns and a Medium Range gun. The ships will also be fitted with indigenously developed twin-tube torpedo launchers and anti-submarine rocket launchers, the NPOL developed Humsa-NG hull-mounted sonar, and two multi-role helicopters adding punch to the ship’s anti-submarine capability. The maximum speed of the ship is above 30 Knots.

The destroyer will be launched using the pontoon-assisted launch technique, to be employed for the first time in the history of Indigenous warship building. This technique helps in overcoming slipway/ draft constraints and permits launching of heavier vessels.

PIB

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 23 Sep 2009 03:26

A drawing of P15A Kolkata Class Destroyer:
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58 ... -Class.jpg

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 23 Sep 2009 04:42

i hope this can be of vital interest and gives vital technical info if not posted before

target designation and navigation radars info
http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_86-89.pdf

radar data processing system,mutual interference avoidance system,fire control radar for naval guns,PUMA fire control radar can be found on TALWAR CLASS along with technical info
http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_90-94.pdf

fire control radar for shipborne antiaircraft guns,electronic suppression system,decoy system,SUBMARINE SONAR with detection range against submarines and surface ships
http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_95-99.pdf

submarine sonar system specification given here is the only technical data for public available for any sonar which india can buy or will use

although there is USHUS sonar but no technical info about it ever published

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 23 Sep 2009 04:54

torpedo's technical info
http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_74-76.pdf

russian naval SAM system although all of you know about it already
http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_58-61.pdf

chinese have RiF M SAM system on their destroyer and i think russians have offered this SAM along with new ship design for P15B

various sonar systems for surface ships for various purposes
http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_100-104.pdf

John · Post by **John** » 23 Sep 2009 19:26

Baldev wrote:chinese have RiF M SAM system on their destroyer and i think russians have offered this SAM along with new ship design for P15B

Rif was offered a while back but never procured likely due to the size and complexity of the system.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 23 Sep 2009 19:42

John wrote:
Anurag wrote:Isn't the Barak-8/II suppose to be replacing these in the future?
Barak 8 is medium range system and will replace the shtil, based on CGI model of P-15A Barak will still be used for point defense along with ak-630.

don't think so this will be done any time in next decade
actually there are 2 types of SHTIL SAM one is launched from launcher and other one is VL

VL shtil has range of 50 km compared to 70km range of barak8,but you going to see VL shtil on 2nd batch of talwar class being built

John · Post by **John** » 23 Sep 2009 19:58

Baldev wrote: VL shtil has range of 50 km compared to 70km range of barak8,but you going to see VL shtil on 2nd batch of talwar class being built

Its range is still limited to around 30 km due to its Orekh FCR, as for VL-Shtil on Talwar being built by Yantar it is unknown. Only thing confirmed to date is that it will have Brahmos. Hopefully we get a better idea when it is launched sometime next year?

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 23 Sep 2009 20:18

John wrote:
Baldev wrote: VL shtil has range of 50 km compared to 70km range of barak8,but you going to see VL shtil on 2nd batch of talwar class being built
Its range is still limited to around 30 km due to its Orekh FCR, as for VL-Shtil on Talwar being built by Yantar it is unknown. Only thing confirmed to date is that it will have Brahmos. Hopefully we get a better idea when it is launched sometime next year?

32 km range as shown in cataloque for launcher launched shtil is compatible with Orekh FCR range

if they have 50km range VL shtil so they must have increased the FCR range or probably new longer range FCR but about this more info yet to come up

any guess which fire control radar will be used with BARAK-8?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 23 Sep 2009 21:21

So in next three years IN would induct (realisticly) -

3 Shivalik class FFG
3 Delhi Class destroyers
3 Improved Talwars
3 P28 corvettes

Not bad!

Gorkey and first Scorpion submarine are possible too.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 23 Sep 2009 21:23

Now, Navy gets UAVs to counter sea threat

http://idrw.org/?p=1015#more-1015
BY :Times Now

Ten months ago Ajmal Kasav and his gang of marauding gunmen exposed the terror threat from the seas. Now, thanks to the fact being brought to light Porbander airport is being equipped to keep a constant vigil over the coast.

In the wake of reports that terror groups may be plotting more attacks against India, the Indian navy has decided to deploy for the first time, an entire squadron of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) to maintain a non-stop vigil of country’s maritime border with Pakistan.

The Indian Navy will deploy IAF’s Israeli made UAVs, Searcher and the Heron Porbander. Both drones will now pick up on any suspicious movement on the seas.

UAVs like the Searcher and Heron are unique. They can fly for upto 12 hours and send real time images to the control room. The drones have the capability to rise to an altitude so high that they cannot be spotted easily, making them ideal eyes in the skies.

Though not armed at present, the navy says it can arm the UAVs if the need be. But for the time being, to maintain a non-stop real-time vigil is what the situation demands.

So far the Navy has used its aircrafts to monitor the coastline but now the coastal monitoring will become more sophisticated.

According to information available ,the Navy has almost upgraded its infrastructure at the porbandar airport to house the UAV squadron. sources say the squadron will begin operations by december. In fact the Indian Coast Guard has already moved a squadron of Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv from Goa to Porbandar.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Sep 2009 22:28

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 821997.cms

Pragadeesh · Post by **Pragadeesh** » 24 Sep 2009 01:01

Russian submarine completes trials
http://www.hindu.com/2009/09/24/stories ... 441000.htm

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Sep 2009 01:56

Katare wrote:So in next three years IN would induct (realisticly) -

3 Shivalik class FFG
3 Delhi Class destroyers
3 Improved Talwars
3 P28 corvettes

Not bad!

Gorkey and first Scorpion submarine are possible too.

Plus the Arihant and the Nerpa. What is the IN name for the NERPA?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 24 Sep 2009 01:59

INS Chakra I suppose

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Sep 2009 02:01

Three Delhi class?

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 24 Sep 2009 02:23

Any idea on the ASW Helicopter procurement plan's of the IN? is navy waiting for Hal's medium lift helicopter?

Better to issue the RFP and start with the selection process, since with the induction of all this new platforms navy will be facing a shortage of ASW choppers.

Whats the status of sea king midlife upgrade? Any further movement on that side?

John · Post by **John** » 24 Sep 2009 04:36

Baldev wrote: 32 km range as shown in cataloque for launcher launched shtil is compatible with Orekh FCR range

if they have 50km range VL shtil so they must have increased the FCR range or probably new longer range FCR but about this more info yet to come up

any guess which fire control radar will be used with BARAK-8?

Actually Talwar and P-17 carry 9M317 which has range of 45 km (vertical launch variant is 9M317M) but there was article on VL-Shtil posted here couple here years ago which stated that VL-shtil as well launcher based variants are limited by the Orekh FCR. The Chinese have already deployed VL-Shtil and they use the same Orekh FCR so i don't think there is any replacement to that. There is active guided variant of 9M317 currently under devolopment. As for Barak-8 does not need Fire control radar for target illumination, it is an active guided missile and it uses MF-STAR for mid course guidance.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 24 Sep 2009 05:07

karan_mc wrote:Now, Navy gets UAVs to counter sea threat

http://idrw.org/?p=1015#more-1015
BY :Times Now

.......................................................

Though not armed at present, the navy says it can arm the UAVs if the need be. But for the time being, to maintain a non-stop real-time vigil is what the situation demands...............................................

how is that possible? what kind of weapons are they planning to equip ?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 24 Sep 2009 12:37

Russia concludes third stage of Nerpa sub trials in Far East

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Sep 2009 14:18

MiG-29K for the "Admiral Kuznetsov"

the MiG-29K in this respect are more convenient, because the Indians have already ordered 16 aircraft and plans to buy at least 28 cars. As noted Konstantin Makienko, it cheapens the series and allows you to save on development.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Sep 2009 14:36

makes sense. use the ready design for the moment and concentrate efforts on a future naval PAKFA.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Sep 2009 14:39

Dmurphy wrote:Russia concludes third stage of Nerpa sub trials in Far East

So, the muhurat for homecoming of the Russian "bahu" into waiting Indian waters draws closer...

Great times for the IN...Arihant, Nerpa, P-15A etc coming in one after the other.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 24 Sep 2009 17:33

Dmurphy wrote:Russia concludes third stage of Nerpa sub trials in Far East

Err.. Rakesh....

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 24 Sep 2009 19:48

^^^

err...what?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Sep 2009 20:00

There is a matter of some mithai that Rakesh has been trying to wiggle out of treating all BRFites.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 24 Sep 2009 21:31

^^^ Is it some kind of a bet that he lost?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Sep 2009 22:15

Nope! In his excitement Admiral Rakesh out of the generosity of his kind heart "promised" to buy mithai equal to the displacement of the Akulas when they joined IN. If he doesn't fulfill his promise he will be reduced to Seaman 3rd class!