Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 05 Sep 2010 14:38

According to wikipedia, once Hornet launched Harpoon struck Indian Civilian Vessel "Jagvijay" somewhere in atlantic. Jagvijay reported to strayed into the USN exercise test range despite early warning to all mariners.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 05 Sep 2010 15:14

personally i don't see any benefit with bhramos II if we don't improve up on the range of the missile. None of our enemy countries is having any counter measures for bhramos. Instead of spending time money and efforts to increase the speed of the missile we should concentrate on increasing Range of missile if possible. Better to spend the amount on getting more bhramos and nirbhays and concentrate independently on AGM-129 or KH 101 type of missiles.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 05 Sep 2010 15:39

Bhramos range of Missiles of any Block cannot be seen with range in excess of 300Km due to MTCR. However it was hinted that Bhramos techs. will be utilised to create a missile as sophisticated but under Desi Label. Shourya I think is the spin off that was hinted at the time.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 05 Sep 2010 16:19

vishnu.nv wrote:personally i don't see any benefit with bhramos II if we don't improve up on the range of the missile. None of our enemy countries is having any counter measures for bhramos. Instead of spending time money and efforts to increase the speed of the missile we should concentrate on increasing Range of missile if possible. Better to spend the amount on getting more bhramos and nirbhays and concentrate independently on AGM-129 or KH 101 type of missiles.

range is not everything, Brahmos gives us the ability to hit any target within 7 minutes or so and that is what makes it impossible to counter because if the enemy does not have any significant reaction time and does not know where the missile will be launched from then it makes the missile almost invincible.

Also, just think about what a speed of 6000 Kmph can do over 300 Km, any target can be hit with accuracy in 3 minutes from launch.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Sep 2010 16:47

Nirmal wrote:Bhramos range of Missiles of any Block cannot be seen with range in excess of 300Km due to MTCR. However it was hinted that Bhramos techs. will be utilised to create a missile as sophisticated but under Desi Label. Shourya I think is the spin off that was hinted at the time.

Shaurya has nothing to do with brahmos. It is a totally unique beast in itself. Brahmos uses rocket to initially gain speed while the power for sustained flight is provided by ramjet. Shaurya on the other hand uses rocket throughout its flight. Also, considering their roles, the solid propellent rockets used in both missiles should also be different. As there is no need to control flow in Brahmos, it's rocket would use solid oxidizer while the rocket of Shaurya would have to use liquid or gaseous oxidizer.

wig · Post by **wig** » 05 Sep 2010 17:06

Bihanga wrote:According to wikipedia, once Hornet launched Harpoon struck Indian Civilian Vessel "Jagvijay" somewhere in atlantic. Jagvijay reported to strayed into the USN exercise test range despite early warning to all mariners.

minor nitpick! bihang ji,

In December 1988, a Harpoon launched by an F/A-18 Hornet fighter from the aircraft carrier USS Constellation[6] killed one sailor when it struck the merchant ship Jagvivek, a 250 ft (76 m) long Indian-owned ship, during an exercise at the Pacific Missile Range near Kauai, Hawaii. A Notice to Mariners had been issued warning of the danger, but the Jagvivek strayed into the test range area, and the Harpoon missile, fortunately loaded just with an inert dummy warhead, locked onto it instead of its intended target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AGM-84_Harpoon

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 05 Sep 2010 23:32

just a thought, Prithvi being the lab rat for DRDO, if the Brahmos kind of ramjet propulsion is added to the liquid fuelled prithvi (it will ignite the ramjet in its descent well within the atmosphere), with this mod, can the range be increased?

throttling the terminal speed of Prithvi is translated into the maneuverability & precision that is possible with the current speed of Brahmos

for a land or ship launch it gives additional stand off ranges

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Sep 2010 00:38

Interesting idea.
You are suggesting mounting a Brahmos as a second stage on a two stage missile whose range can be anything, but the second stage will be range limited.

Hmm, I wonder what MTCR has to say about this.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 06 Sep 2010 02:27

Nihat wrote:
vishnu.nv wrote:personally i don't see any benefit with bhramos II if we don't improve up on the range of the missile. None of our enemy countries is having any counter measures for bhramos. Instead of spending time money and efforts to increase the speed of the missile we should concentrate on increasing Range of missile if possible. Better to spend the amount on getting more bhramos and nirbhays and concentrate independently on AGM-129 or KH 101 type of missiles.
range is not everything, Brahmos gives us the ability to hit any target within 7 minutes or so and that is what makes it impossible to counter because if the enemy does not have any significant reaction time and does not know where the missile will be launched from then it makes the missile almost invincible.

Also, just think about what a speed of 6000 Kmph can do over 300 Km, any target can be hit with accuracy in 3 minutes from launch.

So we have a invincible missile in form of Bhramos. Explain me why we need the bhramos 2?

The press will write great stories abt worlds first Mach 6 missile developed by India, but from a operational point of view whats the advantage? or to rephrase the question is this 4 minutes that important ? Still we can't use this weapon to touch anything beyond 300Kms. Brahmos 2 may be heavier to be carried by a fighter, It can't carry nuclear weapons. Naval vessels can carry lesser number compared to Bhramos. This range is pretty much useless against Panda.

I am not telling that we wont be achieving anything by developing this missille. but colabrating with russians will restrict the range, then i think we need to go independly. If not bhramos 2, bhramos varient itself with more range for LACM purposes.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Sep 2010 02:39

Nirmal wrote:Bhramos range of Missiles of any Block cannot be seen with range in excess of 300Km due to MTCR.

from 2007

Mazurkevich, who heads international cooperation department of the Russian Defence Ministry, said that one of the reasons for not Russia not keen to export this weapon, "highly lethal for potential enemies", is that its range could be easily extended from the current 300 km

http://www.zeenews.com/news349272.html

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 06 Sep 2010 04:20

India should get exception from MTCR

Seriously, the Western countries and their rules

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Sep 2010 05:57

one question.Theoretically how far can Brahmos go ? Can the gurus here please answer.I think "that" is the actual range of the Brahmastra !

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Sep 2010 07:47

FIRST LOOK: India's Long-Range Cruise Missile Programme

According to the schematics, under India's 11th Five-Year Plan (2007-2012), DRDO will complete the development of airframe integrated air intakes (see image) and controllers. These will be completed before 2012. The schematics also indicate that the engine development and engine test facilities are well underway under the 11th Plan, but will be complete under the 12th Plan, i.e, between 2012-2017. The schematics indicate that the DRDO aims for a first test firing of the Indian LRCM by 2013-14.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Sep 2010 08:02

Steep dive from flat trajectory is very stressing to the airframe. Wonder how they did it. Could have used divert nozzles.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Sep 2010 08:14

nrshah wrote:
Kanson wrote: No Shah, I'm not referring any assembly. I only saying that there is chance of India attempting a Brahmos-lite type missile smaller enough to be mounted on any smaller platform like LCA. It will be a totally Indian effort. It will help in fulfulling the role expected of LCA by the IAF.
Thank you Sir...but the problem is this will take huge amount of time... Take for example of Brahmos itself, Even 10 years of development (based on existing missile) Air launched version is not there.. of course, with brahmos, we would have learned a lot which will reduce the development time... But still it will take time... But I would love to see such a missile on LCA and hoping to see it very soon...

You have your answer here.

nits wrote:FIRST LOOK: India's Long-Range Cruise Missile Programme

Test date: 2013 and the range is 500+ km.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Sep 2010 08:28

Now that looks quite like the ADM an unmentionable journalist used to talk about.

Also just for reference

http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wo ... _anf.shtml

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 Sep 2010 08:29

vasu_ray wrote:just a thought, Prithvi being the lab rat for DRDO, if the Brahmos kind of ramjet propulsion is added to the liquid fuelled prithvi (it will ignite the ramjet in its descent well within the atmosphere), with this mod, can the range be increased?

throttling the terminal speed of Prithvi is translated into the maneuverability & precision that is possible with the current speed of Brahmos

for a land or ship launch it gives additional stand off ranges

They have been experimenting with Prithvi . But, with advent of Shaurya it may not be necessary.

I think, they will retire Prithvi's as their shelf life and then MLU shelf life gets over. A lot has been invested in it.

( The Pritivi Missile Story )

Prithvi Four and Prithvi strap on

Having done the P-II, Four engined Prithvi was conceived. A four engine test was statc test fired at LPD test bed. P4 still rumbles on. PSLV had strap on’s why not Pritvi? However the idea is in cold storage now.

Range redefined

The 2002-2003 war scenarios in Afghanistan and Iraq had churned the Prithvi designers to go beyond the Prithvi’s set range. The composites were introduced and a number of changes introduced. In April 2003, a extended range Prithvi flew beyond the barrier milestone. This is one more variant of the Prithvi Missile.

Prithvi development goes on.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Sep 2010 08:36

The LRCM looks like India attempt to create a Long Range multipurpose supersonic missile similar to French ASMP-A , interestingly they share a similar intake design and is a move away from Brahmos nose intake type design

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Sep 2010 09:34

-self deleted-

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Sep 2010 09:49

Can someone please post a short summary of missiles under development/developed? I'm much confused. One liners on(range/purpose/warhead size/timeline for operationalization):

(a) Brahmos-2 (Block-II is with advanced seeker, right?)
(b) Shaurya
(c) K-15
(d) Sagarika
(e) Nirbhay

Thanx.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Sep 2010 09:56

Oye,

I have removed that post altogether.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 06 Sep 2010 10:31

@ vishnu

So we have a invincible missile in form of Bhramos. Explain me why we need the bhramos 2?

The press will write great stories abt worlds first Mach 6 missile developed by India, but from a operational point of view whats the advantage? or to rephrase the question is this 4 minutes that important ? Still we can't use this weapon to touch anything beyond 300Kms. Brahmos 2 may be heavier to be carried by a fighter, It can't carry nuclear weapons. Naval vessels can carry lesser number compared to Bhramos. This range is pretty much useless against Panda.

I am not telling that we wont be achieving anything by developing this missille. but colabrating with russians will restrict the range, then i think we need to go independly. If not bhramos 2, bhramos varient itself with more range for LACM purposes.

How do you know Brahmos II will be heavier, I guess this is no more than an educated guess. They may not add boosters but change the engine and propulsion tech. itself.

It cannot carry a nuclear payload? - Another guess I guess, do you work for DRDO or Russian weapon manufactueres.

Naval vessels can carry lesser Brahmos - Another Guess or do you have something concrete to back this up

Brahmos II is useless against China - what is the basis of saying this, not all missiles have to hit beijing and shanghai to be of use against china. In the most likelyhood of a low intensity conflict with China, Brahmos II is capable of taking out vital Rail, Road, Briadges, Supply dumps, logistical lines, tactical HQ and what not in the blink of an eye, without giving any response time to SAM's.

As for the utility of going faster, in modern warfare every second matters, the future belongs to Brahmos II type missiles and Tomahawk etc become outdates and good only for use against Iraq and Afg.

Another point you made was regarding developing Brahmos like missiles without Russian assistance to enahance its range, while this is a good thought to have, please familiarize yourself with the practical implications of this. The russians have designed the seeker and engine (booster) for this missile and it is essentially derived from PJ-10 (russian anti-ship missile). Russia holds major technologies related to it and ToT only transfers screw driver tech. . India is responsible for Navigation and fire control systems.

While our sub-sonic missile remains in initial stages, imagine how much time it will take to design a missile like Brahmos comparable to russian capabilities.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 06 Sep 2010 10:42

Ok. So a new missile program pops up supersonic LRCM having range of 600 KM's.

This is a very good development something i have been asking for in my previous post. Since the program is entirely indigenous we could have later variants of different ranges.

rohit,
not a expert, but this is my open source knowledge tells me this.

(a) Brahmos-2 (Block-II is with advanced seeker, right?)
Yes, earlier reports quoted a 1000KM range. Now being quoted a range of 300KM's, supersonic mach 6 missile.
(b) Shaurya
700 KM range supersonic cruise/ballistic missile. (Whether it’s a cruise missile or ballistic missile, depends on the person defining it)
(c) K-15
Sub launched variant of shourya having 700 KM’s Range.
(d) Sagarika
It was supposed to be submarine launched cruise missile earlier. It turned out to be the launcher for the K-15/A3-SL programs.
(e) Nirbhay
1000 KM range subsonic cruise missile, may have variants of greater range.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 06 Sep 2010 10:48

It just takes one supersonic bullet to take a life away. Looks like with Brahmos co-development program, Indian Scientists are learning a great deal, so I concur on future developments of going hypersonic. It just thrilling to be at the top. But the GPS guided system comes under US, so unless we switch over to our own or to Russian GLONASS there is no real operational use, Americans can always black out when and where they wish.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 06 Sep 2010 11:31

Thanks Gagan, Chackojoseph

I think what we are looking for is probably in the LRCM with an Indian brand supersonic propulsion

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 06 Sep 2010 11:57

How do you know Brahmos II will be heavier, I guess this is no more than an educated guess. They may not add boosters but change the engine and propulsion tech. itself.

What is your guess on this? Adding boosters won’t increase the weight of the missile? The current bhramos itself is comparatively heavier compared to its subsonic counter parts. The advantage of speed negates this.

It cannot carry a nuclear payload? - Another guess I guess, do you work for DRDO or Russian weapon manufactueres.

Give me any proof that bhramos is nuclear capable or mated with nuclear weapons in that case. Where I do work is irrelevant to the discussion we are having, let’s just try to stick to topic we are discussing.

Naval vessels can carry lesser Brahmos - Another Guess or do you have something concrete to back this up

A year back or so we had a good discussion on the same thread regarding the bhramos-2. Those days bhramos-2 was supposed to be in range of 1000 KM’s and has been pointed out it will have more size than of Brahmos and a drawback of this could be that naval vessels could carry lesser missiles. This is of course comparing it with Brahmos.

Brahmos II is useless against China - what is the basis of saying this, not all missiles have to hit beijing and shanghai to be of use against china. In the most likelyhood of a low intensity conflict with China, Brahmos II is capable of taking out vital Rail, Road, Briadges, Supply dumps, logistical lines, tactical HQ and what not in the blink of an eye, without giving any response time to SAM's.

Ok, tell what you will use to hit them deep inside their territory for a precision strike. On the other part the panda land is having cruise missile having larger ranges which they can use to stay out of the battle field and do damage up on us. The use of ballistic missiles will be an escalation and it has to be seen whether our neta’s and babus will have the balls to do that against china. Now we have the Nirbhay program to care of this, thanks to DRDO.
All that you have said can be done with Brahmos itself.

As for the utility of going faster, in modern warfare every second matters, the future belongs to Brahmos II type missiles and Tomahawk etc become outdates and good only for use against Iraq and Afg.

Are our battle fields that modern? Is Tomhawk that outdated, then why uncle is deploying ohio class SSGN’s each having 154 tomahawk near to panda. Hope you get the utility.
Somewhere I was reading the uncle sam itself feeling shortage of missiles in the first stages of the second gulf war. Nirbhay will be cheaper than the Brahmos, which can be mass produced.

Another point you made was regarding developing Brahmos like missiles without Russian assistance to enahance its range, while this is a good thought to have, please familiarize yourself with the practical implications of this. The russians have designed the seeker and engine (booster) for this missile and it is essentially derived from PJ-10 (russian anti-ship missile). Russia holds major technologies related to it and ToT only transfers screw driver tech. . India is responsible for Navigation and fire control systems.

Precisely my point is that only. Why develop another missile which we can’t extend the range and limited to MCRT restrictions. Let us try to master the propulsion ourselves. Now that what DRDO is doing by LRCM program that shiv aroor reported today. Now another point is that Russians is offering Yankhot missile as a completion to Brahmos.
Meanwhile it will be worthwhile to see what panda did , They got examples of the KH-101, pak crash landed Tomahawk to reverse engineer the CJ-10 which is having ranges up to 2200 Kms which we have to face in a war against pand.
Now the new question is LRCM missile program and Bhramos-2?

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 06 Sep 2010 12:32

Questions to Guru...

Both Brahmos and now LRCM, both are depicted to have very high altitude cruise profile...

Cruise missile are generally known as terrain hugging which is why they are so stealthy and very difficult to detect...

However, both the above missiles are crusing at high altitude... does all other cruise missiles incl Tomhawk etc also have such high altitude cruise altitude or i m missing something?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Sep 2010 13:03

hopefully it will have a boxy rectangular cross section to accomodate twin engines and a massive warhead, with stealthy air intaxes and control surfaces. kind of a KEPD-350 on ****.
IIR seeker will be good to have
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/common/AG/taurus.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2010 13:32

Saddam supposedly extended the range of his Scuds by adding an enlarged fuel section,which he used to hit Israel,therefore the Russian reluctance to export Brahmos is quite valid.If at all the missile is exported to certain friendly nations of both India and Russia,then they must also be under the most stringent rules and would perhaps require inspections to see that the MTCR rules are not violated.The risk of the enemy acquiring an exported missile by default also remains.With real time NCW also aided through our proposed GAGAN sat network,the extra speed of a hyper-B'Mos will considerably shorten the time to hit a high value target when detected.I'm not sure why there has been no attempt to export Prithvi as well,which is entirely Indian designed and built for which we would require no Rusian approval unlike the JV,B'Mos.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Sep 2010 15:06

Philip saar,
GAGAN is purely civilian and is based on US's GPS.
I think you are referring to IRNSS mil.

jai · Post by **jai** » 06 Sep 2010 15:15

How easy or difficult would it be to suitably modify Brahmos to Shoot down aircraft - AWACS/Enemy SU's/MR's/ Incoming Missiles ?

Use it in place of PAD/AAD ....or is it better to use "Prithvi" ?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 06 Sep 2010 15:19

By what standards is the stated 600 KM range of the LCRM "long range"??

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 06 Sep 2010 17:13

>>>However, both the above missiles are crusing at high altitude... does all other cruise missiles incl Tomhawk etc also have such high altitude cruise altitude or i m missing something?

There is no choice for the designer, other than sending the missile to high altitude for cruise, because at sea level it will need exotic skin and much higher power to sustain supersonic speed of this kind (remember speed Vs power curve is a cubic Parabola and you can't fiddle around much with it)...and hypersonic speed at sea level is out of question both material and power requirement basis.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 06 Sep 2010 17:15

>>>Use it in place of PAD/AAD ....or is it better to use "Prithvi" ?

Brahmos is air-breathing...so you can't send it to high altitude for interception

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Sep 2010 19:09

New cruise missile resembles the asmp-a.

http://www.militarypictures.info/nuclea ... A.jpg.html

Rafale may not be a bad choice....lol

http://www.extremecentrepoint.com/?p=4165

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Sep 2010 21:43

jai wrote:How easy or difficult would it be to suitably modify Brahmos to Shoot down aircraft - AWACS/Enemy SU's/MR's/ Incoming Missiles ?

You must have heard about Akash missile which is a ramrocket similar to the concept of ramjet of Brahmos. Wait and see, there are three new missiles yet to be unveiled which will happen soon.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Sep 2010 11:39

Tx Gagan,you're right!

Why we need to relentlessly develop our missile portfolio,to deal with China.

Crossposted from the China thread.Lack of transparency in China's military-US report.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... s-pentagon

"Drew Thompson, a China expert at the Nixon Centre in Washington, warned: "The US military and the Chinese military don't have a common understanding, a rules of the road, for navigation. That's a major cause for concern."

"China has the most active land-based ballistic and cruise missile programme in the world and that it is developing an anti-ship ballistic missile with a range of more than 1,500km, capable of attacking aircraft carriers in the western Pacific."

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 07 Sep 2010 13:26

Des is indeed unveiling missiles at impressive clip. I also hope serial production post-induction is also happening at equally impressive clip only.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 07 Sep 2010 13:53

Kanson, Can you possibly reveal just the names of the 3 missiles (NEW) yet be unveiled or would that be indulging in some kind of contravention?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Sep 2010 01:31

Bliss to indulge this uninformed abdul. Is this new 500km+ ranged LRCM with 2013-14 test date the same as Nirbhay? If so, what happened to the 1000km touted range of the Nirbhay.