Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2010 15:29

Selected NUGGETS from TFT

Imran Khan doesn’t condemn terrorists

Quoted in Jang PMLN leader Pervaiz Rashid criticised Imran Khan for not condemning the terrorists who destroyed Data Darbar but instead demanded the dismissal of the PMLN government. Mr Rashid asked Imran Khan to ask his ‘friends’ not to do terrorism.{Everybody is revealing everybody else's connections with terrorists !!}

No mosque in Punjab Assembly!

Daily Islam reported that while the Punjab politicians were languishing (gham main ghulnay walay) in grief for the Ahmadis, there was no mosque for them in the Punjab assembly where they could say namaz. More than 500 politicians and staff were without namaz. The nearest mosque had a door opening on to the Assembly but that had been closed. The mike that brought in the sound of namaz was also shut off in the House.

Allama snubs Nehru

Writing in Jang Hamid Mir wrote that once Congress leader Nehru came to Lahore to see Allama Iqbal. Nehru complained that Jinnah was too ziddi (stubborn) but both Hindu and Muslims love you as a great poet; had you been the leader of Muslim League everyone would have gathered behind you. On this Allama became furious and reprimanded Nehru and told him that Allama was a simple soldier (adna sipahi) of Jinnah.

Chaudhry Shujaat defends Madrassa Haqqania

Quoted in daily Islam Chaudhry Shujaat leader of Muslim League (Q) said that FIA’s report accusing Madrassa Haqqania of Nowshehra of being involved in the plot to kill Benazir Bhutto was wrong. He said the madrassas were the castles of Islam and were serving Pakistan. He rang Maulana Samiul Haq the head of the madrassa at Akora Khattak and gave him his support.

Ahle Hadith want Ahmadis ‘cleaned up’

The day the Ahmadis were massacred in Lahore by Punjabi Taliban, daily Ausaf reported that a province wide Ahle Hadith youth force was holding a mammoth gathering at Sargodha. Ahle Hadith leader Prof Sajid Mir condemned the killing of the Ahmadis but all the other speakers, in disagreement, demanded a ‘cleaning up’ of the Ahmadis in Pakistan.

Justice Sharif weeps at Data Darbar

According to Jang Chief Justice of the Lahore High Court Khwaja Muhammad Sharif {also known as 'pro-Jihadi Judge} went to Data Darbar after the terrorists had destroyed it with two suicide-bombers and wept and prayed that Allah should keep Pakistan in His security. He said that terrorists could neither be Muslims nor Pakistani. Earlier Commissioner Lahore had stated that the terrorists had come from Afghanistan and had been trained by India. Jang reported on its front page that one 16-year old suicide-bomber Rafiq was from Barki near Lahore and that his brother was employed in an intelligence agency. Later the chief justice asked the police to investigate if Blackwater of America was involved in Data Darbar terrorism.

The Ahmadi statement is a lie!

Reported in Express ulema in Gujranwala reacted to the statement of the Ahmadi leader that the Prophet PBUH was the last prophet by saying that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was lying and was a joke with the Quran and Sunnat. The government should understand the trick and abstain from abolishing the Blasphemy Law. The Qadianis were traitors and should be punished with death under Article 6 for treason.

Pakistani mentality

Writing in Jang Saleem Safi stated that Pakistanis had a split mentality because they tried to hide their filth (ghalazat) with new philosophies in order to make a fool of the world outside. In fact they were themselves idiots who deceived themselves and thus going towards destruction (zillat aur tabahi). Because of their talk the world thinks that Pakistan is the only castle of Islam where West-hating Muslims live.

Bhutto and Ahmadis

Columnist Abbas Athar wrote in Express that Bhutto got the Ahmadis declared non-Muslim after they had helped him organise his victory at the polls. Athar did not believe that Bhutto met his fate later because of some miracle but he did see a connection in the kind of fanatic men who got control of the state after him and hanged him. Bhutto was a liberal man but a hard Muslim was still hidden inside him. And the noose around his neck was tightened in the name of Islam.

Two and half lakh new maulvis

Reported in daily Islam just one federation of seminaries located in Multan, Wifaqul Madaris was host by the end of June 2010 to 2.5 lakh examinees trying to pass the exam kutub (books) and of hifz (learning by heart) of Quran. On passing they will be issued sanad of graduation.

British women embrace Islam

Daily Jinnah reported from the UK that while the West was thinking of banning hijab, British women were embracing Islam in great numbers. In the past decade 30,000 Christian women had become Muslim and just one mosque at Regent Park received women worshippers fully 60 percent of whom were converts.

Ahmadis are to blame!

Writing in Jinnah Hafiz Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi alias Sakht Jan stated it was wrong to say that South Punjab had become a safe haven for terrorists. And there was a federal minister who put on American spectacles before seeing Jaish and Lashkar in South Punjab. The question was why the government was allowing brandishing of weapons in Chenab Nagar these days.

Wicked lady journalists

Writing in Express Tanvir Qaisar Shahid stated that western lady journalists were given to breaking laws and going to places not allowed to them and in some cases of overstaying their visas in Pakistan. Among men, Daniel Pearl crossed the red line in Karachi and was beheaded by terrorists. He should have informed the intelligence agencies before going there. Christine Lamb and Emma Duncan were early examples of lady journalists getting out of hand, writing ‘Waiting for Allah’ and ‘Breaking the Curfew’ books respectively. These books were a blot (badnuma dhaba) on the governments of Pakistan.

Fauzia Wahab regrets

Daily Express reported that PPP information secretary Fauzia Wahab, faced with a trial for insulting the Companions of the Prophet PBUH, regretted that she said what she said about there being no Constitution for Hazrat Umar, and claimed that she herself belonged to the sacred family of Haji Imdadullah Muhajir Makki and that she wanted more madrassas like Jamia Banuria to be opened. {In Pakistan, everybody claims a great lineage}

A milestone decision

Reported in monthly magazine Naya Zamana Chief Justice of the Lahore High Court granted bail to the leader of the terrorists who attacked the GHQ, Dr Usman. After the decision the Court resounded with slogans that went like this: Khwaja Sharif Zindabad, Nawaz Sharif Zindabad, Azad Adliya Zindabad, and Tehreek-e-Taliban Zindabad. The magazine also noted that the attackers of the Sri Lankan team in Lahore had also been let off for lack of proof. {Not for nothing is he known as a 'pro-jihadi' judge}

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 16 Jul 2010 15:31

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:In fact I see some vague parallels between some of the things coming out of Pakistan and some of the responses to posts on Pakteahouse.
It is a very popular theme in Pakistani forums - if you bluntly state a truth (e.g., like 26/11 and ISI) you are a hate-monger.

And a popular theme of WKKs too!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2010 15:39

SUCH GUP from TFT

Not bad at all!

The Father of our Bum got his fingers burnt by playing footsie with the khakis. As we all know, when the chips were down, and his proliferation network got found out, the Yanks failed to turn their customary blind eye and pounced on the khakis in the time of Mush. They passed the buck and the Father of our Bum was dethroned unceremoniously from his hallowed status of hero. In one day, he went from hero to zero. But not quite, for no one laid a finger on all the greenbacks he’d collected on his way to heroism. These greenbacks make an appearance every now and then, as for instance in the purchase of a swank new apartment in the most up market area of Dubai. The Father of our Bum sent one of his offspring to negotiate the sale and do the deal which closed at a handsome 2.3 million United Arab Emirates Dhirhams. That’s US $ 650,000 and more than five and a half crore Pak Rupees. Not bad for a gent who’s out of work.

All expenses paid

If ever there was an all expenses paid job, it’s got to be the one Gill on the Hill has. The juniors are running around, between them, on the hottest wheels in town. There’s a Hummer, there’s a 6 series Beamer, and a 7 series Beamer. And then there’s the infamous Bentley which very rarely makes an appearance. Then there are Brioni suits, hand made Italian shoes, you name it. Add to this the row of houses in Lahore’s Defence which are ostensibly on a hundred year “lease”. Our mole reports the latest freebie is courtesy the Unintelligent Bureau which is building a fortified wall around Gill’s private residence in Multan. The list goes on and on.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2010 16:59

'Mission Impossible' in TFT

At last the Shahbaz Sharif-led Punjab Government has decided to crackdown on 17 banned organisations in the Punjab through special-purpose task forces in each district. Reliable sources suggest that the decision was made by the federal government while the resolve of the provincial government is half hearted.

The banned organisations include Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP), Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Jaish-e-Muhammad, Sipah-e-Muhammad Pakistan, Tehreek-e-Jaaferia Pakistan, Tehreek Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Muhammadi, Millat-e-Islamia Pakistan (previously known as Sipah-e-Sahaba), Khudamul Islam, (previously known as Jaish-e-Muhammad) Islami Tehreek Pakistan (formerly Tehrik-e-Jaaferia), Hizabut Tehreer, Jamiatul Ansar (formerly Harktul Mujahideen), Jamaatul Furqan (a breakaway faction of Jaish-e-Muhammad), Kherun Nas International Trust, Islamic Student Movement, Balochistan Liberation Army and Jamaatud Dawa.

Interestingly, Ghazi Force, named after Abdul Rasheed Ghazi, Harkatul Jihad-e-Islami (Qari Saifullah Akhtar and Ilyas Kashmiri’s group) and Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan are not included in the provincial list despite reports by intelligence agencies that these three interlinked groups are playing havoc in the Punjab.

There are other problems with the so-called crackdown as well. Most of the targeted 17 organisations are highly active under new names. Allama Sajid Naqvi, chief of the banned Tehrik-e-Jaaferia and Islami Tehrik Pakistan, is using title of Quaid-e-Millat Jaaferia and is taking part in political activities. The SSP (Millat-e-Islamia) is operating under the name of Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat, and its Chief Maulana Ahmad Ludhianvi is also openly taking part in politics. Jamaatud Dawa is using the platform of platform of Tehrik-e-Tahafuz-e-Namoos-e-Risalat and its charity wing is also active. Jaish-e-Muhammad is also operative under the disguise of its charity wing, Al-Rehmat Trust.

Sources close to the Chief Minister of Punjab disclosed that for unknown reasons Shahbaz Sharif never wanted a crackdown in Punjab, but Data Darbar bombing and public reaction forced him to succumb to federal government’s pressure.

To keep a permanent watch on terrorist outfits, the provincial government, with approval of the federal government, has formed the Anti-Terrorism Board. Special task forces of the Anti-Terrorism Board, setup in each district of Punjab have initiated the crackdown. Punjab Chief Minister would head the board, while Punjab Law Minister, Chief Secretary, Home Secretary, Inspector General Police, Secretary Prosecution and a couple of provincial parliamentary secretaries would be members of the Board. Over 300 highly skilled official combatants will coordinate with police and intelligence agencies in operations against terrorists. District Police Officers are supervising functions of the task forces of their respective districts.

So far, the police have arrested dozens of activists from the major militant groups. Spokesman of Punjab Police DIG Akram Naeem Bharoka believes that the crackdown will prove purposeful and will help reduce militancy and terrorism from the province. However, intelligence officials express very little optimism about the success of the crackdown. “Militants have safe hideouts in various parts of the province, and now they are making their base in Sindh as well,” said an intelligence official.

Another intelligence officer remarked, “My past experience with crackdowns tells me that it would be another fruitless exercise. In the past, we arrested many militants and terrorists but the police failed to provide evidence that they were guilty. Resultantly, the courts released them due to the lack of evidence.”

Recently, an anti-terrorism court bailed out Hijratullah, accused of an attack on Manawan Police Training Centre. Likewise, top militants of different outfits were released on bail by the courts in most cases due to the lack of evidence against them. During the last seven years, Pakistan launched four country-wide crackdowns against militant groups, but most of the activists were released or bailed out after a few days and restarted their activities.

The case of Master Riaz Ali of Mian Channu is most instructive. In July 2009, a huge explosion took place when explosives stored at his house detonated accidentally, razing dozens of neighbouring homes. An injured Riaz was arrested from his destroyed house. Later, investigators came to know that he was arrested twice during previous crackdowns for being an activist of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi but was set free by the local police. When this incident took place, he was working for Harkatul Jihad-e-Islami. It was Master Riaz, who revealed that militants were planning to attack GHQ.

“Crackdowns are not the solution. Real solution is bringing terrorists and militants to task which is not possible without well-trained police and fearless judges” remarked a retired big gun of a civilian intelligence service.

However, Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah says the crackdown would bear positive outcomes.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2010 17:26

India not mentally prepared for talks: FM Qureshi

India is not yet mentally prepared for the resumption of dialogue process with Pakistan and is just interested to discuss only some specific issues instead of talking on all outstanding issues between the two countries.{The trajectory is quite predictable. Pakistan attacks India. India stops talking without adopting other coercive measures in a sustained manner. Pakistan takes some cosmetic measures like the revolving door of arrests and releases, bans on terror organizations after allowing them to siphon off their funds and operate under a new name etc. India is not satisfied. Soon, Indian WKKs put pressure on GoI which unable to take any pressure from any quarters succumbs to the argument that lack of talks is no good. It restricts itself to terror plus one or two minor issues. Pakistan, waiting for this development, senses blood like a shark. Refuses to budge. Says it should be 'all or nothing'. India stands its ground for some time. No progress is discernible on the terrorism front. The WKKs again apply pressure that lack of progress in talks only helps terrorists, an argument which has absolutely no truth to it. GoI comes under pressure and again succumbs. Expands the scope of talks. Another terrorist attack takes place and the whole cycle is repeated}

This was stated by Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi while talking to newsmen here at Foreign Service Academy after attending the certificate distribution ceremony to the newly trained probationers of the Foreign Service.

Replying to a question about any ‘dead lock’ in Pak-India foreign minister level talks held here at Islamabad yesterday, Qureshi said,” India is not seen mentally ready for the resumption of talks.”

He said although the Indian Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh and Indian External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna have positive approach and thinking for resuming the talks, but there are some other problems being faced on part of Indian leadership for the revival of dialogue process. {Certainly, the Pakistanis are trying to divide the Indian Home & Foreign Ministries}

Qureshi said Pakistan is always ready to resume talks with India with open heart, but the dialogue process should be substantive, meaningful and result oriented.

He said the progress achieved in the dialogue process started in 2004 and continued till 2008 should not be wasted due to some unknown reasons.{Due to some 'unknown reasons' ? If that is true, then Pakistanis are so blind that they are not able to see the huge elephant that has occupied their small one room moth-eaten tenement}

Those issues and segments for which modalities have been already decided between the two countries should not be reopened, he said.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 16 Jul 2010 17:37

shynee wrote:BADR-1 satellite and beyond - Ex-Chairman, Suar co.
The launch was an achievement by a small team of dedicated Pakistanis opening a window of opportunity for the future generations.

Here's the reality of that "window of opportunity":

Hams!

SUAR-CO personnel completed masters degrees in engineering at England's University of Surrey-the institution which built and operates UO-9, UO-11 and UO-22 hamsats. SUAR-CO hams also used knowledge gained at the university to build their own satellite. With support from the Pakistan Amateur Radio Society, they started building a small hamsat in the last half of 1986. They called it Badr, after the Urdu language word for "new moon."

It resembled the U.S. NUsat launched from an American shuttle in 1985, but Badr-A housed digital communications gear modeled after the radio system aboard the British satellite UO-11 launched in 1984. Shades of AQKhanisms

Badr-1's orbit was so low it could not sustain itself in space more than 146 days. It fell into Earth's atmosphere and burned December 9, 1990.

Success, the suars say? Sure, if success is measured in how fast can you copy patented designs from others.

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 16 Jul 2010 17:48

SM Krishna and Qureshi press confrence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzZ7TI1-Li8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7aGzLJSeD4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cObp8VMaCdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aW2wkoqkgk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knw2PaR0gWQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMS3Q2JACXU

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 16 Jul 2010 18:03

tchandr wrote:
Vril wrote:hypothetical scenario:
guess it will be another dossier time.

A decent writeup by SwapanDas Gupta. I get a feeling that SG reads BRF.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/dc-comme ... otient-210

Excellent article. So finally SMK & MMS company have done something right. They did not play the ball as that slimy SMQ was hoping. Now I want to see how SMQ behaves when Madam Hillary show up in slumbad.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 16 Jul 2010 18:09

archan wrote: Interesting comments. Trust a paki to excrete something like this
Allah even allowed us to marry among ahle kitaab, without asking the bride to change the religion, how it is possible that Islam would allow us to make them our in laws, and expect us to hate them as well at the same time. It does not add up.
There is no compulsion in religion.

So what about the people who are not ahle kitaab? they were very much there before Islam came along. Isn't it a compulsion not to marry them without changing their religion? pakis prove their pakiness by bigoted hypocritical statements on their own religion.[/quote]

This is exactly the point I was trying to make yesterday. Thanks for the post. Pakis and Islamic fanatics have already put their holy book, hadits & prophet beyond any scrutiny and now they want to analyze why their society has developed this cancer (STD might be a better word to use since it is contagious as well). Yesterday I posted an article where the guy writes how rapes, eve teasing and honor killing are rampant in islamic countries and then same breath praises islam as liberator of women now hasnt the guy heard about the term oxymoron?

Its OT here but as Swapandas Gupta mentioned being magnanimous with Pakis will be to our own peril. So when we manage paki failure we need to always keep this point in mind that there is no way we can accept these people as is. There needs to be a radical clensing of mind and other stuff before we assymilate these regions into the vedic culture.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jul 2010 18:38

IDSA Comment on 'Restructuring Dialogue with Pakistan'

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 16 Jul 2010 18:56

SMQ is a long lost brother of comical ali.

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 16 Jul 2010 19:19

Out of topic:

But Marcus North and Shane Watson took 5 wickets against Pakiz. And Afridi resigns from captain in test.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Jul 2010 19:20

SSridhar wrote:IDSA Comment on 'Restructuring Dialogue with Pakistan'

Pretty good article.

But if we starting talking to Paki Army, what would they say? I guess their views are already reflected in what their Foreign Office says.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Jul 2010 19:25

Brad Goodman wrote:So finally SMK & MMS company have done something right. They did not play the ball as that slimy SMQ was hoping. Now I want to see how SMQ behaves when Madam Hillary show up in slumbad.

India does not have that many cards that we can play to force Pakistan to hand over the terrorists. On a different level, the USA too faces Pakistan's perfidy. Whereas Pakistan can always plead, that it does not control the bad lands or the Taliban, in India's case in the mean time it is a bit difficult considering that Hafiz Saeed is a free and public man.

This is a world order, with USA as its primary caretaker and policeman, or at least they like to think of themselves in that way. Now India has gone through the steps and the formalities: had court proceedings for Ajmal Kasab, interrogated Headley, collected interlligence, made the dossiers, had our talks with Pakistan, provided them with all evidence, etc.

There isn't much India can do anymore.

Now it is for America to do its part. Why would they do it - i.e. force Pakistan to deliver on the India-specific terrorists? Right after 26/11, USA did not want India to go to war with Pakistan or even give reason to Pakistan to move their troops onto their Eastern borders, and probably counselled India to go the way of talks. Secondly USA wanted India to feel the impotency of it all, once the military option was taken off the table. Well we have felt that too.

So we know, that partially America's status as superpower derives from the fact, that when one of its allies feels a bit out of their waters in this Pax-Americana, America comes to their support, underlining each time, that they are the superpower.

So India did everything by the book in this Pax-Americana. Now the ball is in the American court. They have to prove, that they are the superpower. If they get the Pakistanis to deliver, then America would have proven, that they are the big boss on the block and can get things done. They would have impressed the Indians. TOIlet and NDTV would go gaga over American help to India. We will all fall heads over heel to embrace our new friend - America the superpower! And MRCA order would go to them.

This is the kind of situation perfectly set up for a superpower to show off. Make a party feel helpless in Pax Americana and then come to its aid, once the party is convinced of its impotency. The dividends are maximum then.

So India has maneuvered herself into that perfect situation and now we await justice. We are in position. We await America.

Have we maneuvered ourselves deliberately into this position of impotency, knowing that we would have to accept America's generosity in exchange for servitude. I think so! Some in India think, they can live with Pax-Americana, and India would more or less able to manage America as well.

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 16 Jul 2010 19:29

From cricbuzz(out of topic)
Breaking news: Afridi will quit as Pakistan captain after the Headingley Test match. What an irony - after unretiring from test cricket to make himself available for this series, he has decided to again retire. Some things never change in Pakistan cricket.

Interesting stat: This is Australia's 13th consecutive win over Pakistan in tests, which is a record.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Jul 2010 19:35

ISI paid Rs25L to LeT to buy boat for 26/11 attack: Headley

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 177389.cms

Our Home Ministry is pretty good.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 16 Jul 2010 19:36

After seeing the tamasha of talks etc for so long, I now feel its really not that important to talk or not, unless we give something of course. Pakis are not going to change and that we all know. So let the tamasha go on, with tweaking from us here and there, and let us keep growing while Pak sinks.
Only condition required is the continuous sinking of Pak, which I hope keeps going on.
Most of the things that we can and should do, are anyway outside of the realm of talks with Pak govt, or even Army probably.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Jul 2010 19:36

Rajesh-ji is right about one thing, we have followed Unkil's orders, now Unkil must deliver

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Jul 2010 19:42

Congress condemns Qureshi remarks

http://www.thehindu.com/news/article518822.ece

Asked whether continuing the dialogue with Pakistan was necessary at this point, the spokesperson said, “it has always been our stand that effort should be made to bridge the trust deficit (between India and Pakistan)”

Ms Natarajan, however, added that the talks would be “meaningful” only when acts of terror from Pakistani soil stop and the culprits of 26/11 are brought to justice.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 16 Jul 2010 19:54

abhishek_sharma wrote: Our Home Ministryer is pretty good.

This is PC's way of getting back at internal back-stabbers...the timing is impeccable..

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 16 Jul 2010 20:03

Apparently in Pakistan,
In Pakistan you are better as a terrorist than a cricketer.
a) Cricketers never take a break - they retire and unretire.
b) Players dont get dropped - they are banned and unbanned.
c) Political leaders (ask Nawaz Sharif) are never ousted - they are exiled and unexiled.

You are better off being a terrorist than a cricketer in Pakistan because:

a) When you commit suicide as a terrorist you are glorified, but if you are a cricketer commiting suicide (esp against Australia) you will be stoned.
b) If you drop a bomb as a terrorist you are glorified, you drop a catch as a cricketer you will be convicted.
c) At least know that they have virgins to look forward to.
d) Terrorists dont get raped.
e) As a terrorist you always get to play at home.

So if you are growing up in Pakistan, looking for inspiration, dont bother with cricket!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2010 20:15

abhishek_sharma wrote:
SSridhar wrote:IDSA Comment on 'Restructuring Dialogue with Pakistan'
Pretty good article.

But if we starting talking to Paki Army, what would they say? I guess their views are already reflected in what their Foreign Office says.

Talking directly to TSPA
- undermines the facade of civilian control of TSP.
- And that also undermines US stance on TSP govt.
- It re-empahzises the power of the TSPA in the kabila.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Jul 2010 20:22

RajeshA:

I see a few flaws in your argument:

1) What if USA does not see 26/11 as a colossal a war crime as it should be seen as, and as India sees it? What if USA tells India, yes, we will live up to our side of the bargain, but unless you are prepared to move on Kashmir, we are not prepared to pressure TSP. In other words, you are assuming US is an honest broker here, and treats India as any ally on par with anglo saxon countries like UK, and other staunch allies like Israel where your analysis would ring true. And I have my doubts on that score.

2) Yes, in public, US counselled restraint after 26/11. But at the same time, since 9/11, US has been supplying lots of military goodies to the very war criminals in Rawilpindi who executed 26/11 and countless other terrorist attacks against India. Plus, if you noticed the frentic pace and alacrity with which Kiyani & Co prepared for war after 26/11, it is clear that they are itching to have go. Thus, what if in private, US tells India, look, we can assure you that should you attack TSP, TSP will hit back and give as good as it takes. And of course, the charming used car salesman BS: great power, growing economy, unprecendented India-US strategic relationship bla bla. Do you want to risk all that will be USA's refrain. Once again, US will repeat, give TSP something on Kashmir, and then we will do our bit.

The reason I come to the above conclusions is because it makes me sick to my stomach that in western media, a kind of moral equivalence has been established. See for example, this sick characterization: India wants to talk about 26/11, while TSP wants to talk Kashmir. And then you have that Indian leftist demented scum bag on Beebsinging the same tune.

Bottom line, this could be the AfPak end game, namely, US is going to step in and politely demand that India forget about 26/11 and talk Kashmir (just as Hafeez Saeed wants). And there is a precedent here. Recall, for several months after Kargil, India blew hot. And then white bahadur ambassador Thomas Pickering lands in Dilli and pomposuly lectures to India, that while Kargil cannot be forgotten, it must be transcended. And wallah, Hajpayee, and "my friend Strobe & Jinnah was secular" promptly delivered by sucking up to the very architect of Kargil: war criminal Mush.

Thus, even seasoned diplomat, M K Bhadrakumar, after blowing hot throught most of this analysis, but finally comes to the most cowardlly conclusion:

The best hope is that between now and Obama's expected visit to India in November, US diplomacy succeeds in putting the India-Pakistan dialogue process back on track.

The big question, however, remains: Will the Indian establishment be prepared to forget the past and forgive the ISI for perpetrating the Mumbai attacks?

Sorry to make you guys throw up.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Jul 2010 20:23

archan wrote:Trust a paki to excrete something like this
Allah even allowed us to marry among ahle kitaab, without asking the bride to change the religion, how it is possible that Islam would allow us to make them our in laws, and expect us to hate them as well at the same time. It does not add up.
There is no compulsion in religion.

Does Qu'ran allow Muslim women to marry among ahle kitaab (Christians and Jews), without asking the bridegroom to change the religion to Islam? NO

Can the children of Muslim Men and ahle-kitaab Women, be anything other than Muslims? NO.

So if all that is not allowed, then it is not a relationship based on respect, but only on using the women of ahle-kitaab as children-bearing factories! Also, the only thing the comment above proves, is that Islam does not hate ahle kitaab Women, but it is silent on the question of ahle-kitaab men!

It all adds up!

munna · Post by **munna** » 16 Jul 2010 20:29

RajeshA wrote:Have we maneuvered ourselves deliberately into this position of impotency, knowing that we would have to accept America's generosity in exchange for servitude. I think so! Some in India think, they can live with Pax-Americana, and India would more or less able to manage America as well.

Well as I see it Amir Khan cannot and will not deliver, plain and simple. The current regime of Baba Om is reeling and devoid of any winds in its sail as far as the domestic situation goes. Moreover the economic rebound that was much talked about is petering out and there is hardly anyone in Dupleecitee who has a clue about the Af-Pak situation.
The Paquess know all this and we too know all this. So, what gives?

After 26/11 and UPA-II win

The game that was played is like this

India to Khan: Deliver H Sayeed and give us a just solution

Khan to Paquees: Deliver us xyz + support in Af theatre

Paquees to Khan: "Yes we can"

but we want our price ie head of India on a platter

Khan to Paquees: Sure we can get Indians to commit harakiri as a quid pro quo for past favours

Khan to India: We can maybe get HS if only you start talks and revive TRack-II back channels shady deals to give up Kahsmir!!

India (ParaM Pujya ji) to Khan: Of course, peace at all costs, peace at all costs

Meanwhile Paquees and Indian folks meet at a middle west resort of Besharam El Fake. Where ParaM Pujya ji does as agreed in hope of some extra growth and development!! Jingos go

The WKKs go

But when the delegation came back to Delhi

Kitchen cabinet to ParamM Pujya ji: What have you done?

ParaM Pujya ji: Well for the past 5 years I have smoked peace pipe and you know it is a hard addiction to let go!!

Kitchen Cabinet: Well the political situation in the country is against your initiative

ParaM Pujya ji: I am not a politician, mainu ki??

Kitchen Cabinet: Either you backtrack or we revolt

ParaM Pujyaji: (Does downhill skiing......)

Some months later and much breast beating to get access to Headley

Headley via leaks: Blah "ISI" Blah "H Sayeed" Blah yada "Ishrat Jahan" yada yada

India: Scandalized

WKKs: Horrified at the revelatons being revealed to "unconditioned" mango ramesh/rameshan

Kitchen Cabinet to ParaM Pujya Ji: No way are we going to talk unless we get some serious response from the other side

ParaM Pujya ji to cabinet: We have to talk, we have to talk ....

Kitchen Cabinet to ParaM Pujya ji: Look dude you can neither control GDP nor PDP (J&K), we can't give you full mandate on this one

Opposition: In response to bone crushing inflation we urge the disaffected public to observe Bharat Bandh

After a successful bandh which stops India for a day and is uniformly supported by real "aam aadmi" (least of all pontificating urban upper middle class professionals) feeling the brunt on issues like terrorism, inflation and fuel price hikes, the government does some soul searching.

Decision is made to give SMK a very limited mandate and sent along with F Sect. of India and not someone from ParaM pujya ji' Office. The Home Sect of India launches a predator strike from Delhi to torpedo any pappi-jahppi before it even begins in Isloo. SMK goes to Peeland and wipes the floor with delegates from the other side, end of the story.

Khan: Confused about India's double faced act, they still cannot get the Paquees to deliver something that can satiate the political opposition in India to peace talks. In short the wares they are selling to us are too cheap in value but the price they quote for them is unrealistic.

India (GOI): On tenterhooks to halt the declining political support, will be in a shell for a while, real strategy will not emerge till 2012-04. Lots of flip flops and political upheavel..

Opposition: Buoyed by the response to bandh, will be more aggressive in dealing with UPA-II duly helped by the "hawks" in the treasury benches

Paquees: Still gloating at their strategi-giri post London Conference they are confused about Indian response. Will run to Khan for help and indulge in usual Plandiyat to no avail

katha samapt.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Jul 2010 20:31

ramana wrote:
IDSA Comment on 'Restructuring Dialogue with Pakistan'

Pretty good article.

But if we starting talking to Paki Army, what would they say? I guess their views are already reflected in what their Foreign Office says.

Talking directly to TSPA
- undermines the facade of civilian control of TSP.
- And that also undermines US stance on TSP govt.
- It re-empahzises the power of the TSPA in the kabila.

RamanaGaru, I think its a hair-brained idea just groping in the dark. Unless India can find a way to hurt TSPA, talk is useless. And the beauty here is that all that India has to do is to remain steadfast in its conviction, speak in one united voice, and cleary mark the line between good and evil: terror and dialouge cannot together. Nothing hurts TSP more than SDREs ignoring the b@stards. But India cannot even muster that with the f$%^ing WKKs, leftists, not to mention willing to "go more than halfway".

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Jul 2010 20:40

munna:

Brilliant narrative.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2010 20:48

Munna very good summary. Brilliant.

CRS, Talks keeps the other guys confused. What harm when Indian public will not accept turning victory into defeat with regard to kashmir. The regular coallpase of talsk after the build up before of getting Kashmir on platter makes the jihadis sharpen their knives due to K L P D.
Next time there will be fundoo coup and not the usual Kakaul coup.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Jul 2010 21:02

I don't know if MKB is from India's elite foreign service. If so, he doesn't do any good to their image. Even logically speaking, forget right or wrong, if India is prepared to forgive TSP for 26/11, then where is the need for US to put India TSP dialouge back on track. Thats exactly what TSP wants, and probably thats exactly what MMS wants but for those in his cabinet who have a semblance of nationalism and self respect.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 16 Jul 2010 21:04

Munna sir that was brilliant.
I don't know who stood up for the country this time from within MMS cabinet and babudom. A salute to all of them for doing preemptive IED mubarak on any attempted sharm-el-sheik.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 16 Jul 2010 21:20

Sanjay M wrote: There are nations that put the Moon on their flag, and then there are nations that put their flag on the Moon. The two can never be the same.

Good one.

Apparently the crescent moon and star is of kufr origin.

munna · Post by **munna** » 16 Jul 2010 21:50

Thanks everyone!
People in the establishment have been bearing all sorts humiliations and insults at the hands of khan and paquees for the past 6 years, just to ensure a secure economic future for the nation. "Ye sabr ka baandh kabhi to tootega" (This dam of patience wil burst forth some day)!!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jul 2010 22:02

Dilbu wrote:Munna sir that was brilliant.
I don't know who stood up for the country this time from within MMS cabinet and babudom. A salute to all of them for doing preemptive IED mubarak on any attempted sharm-el-sheik.

Ohhh , that would be MHA and mallu log there. never to underestimate MHA under lungimaster.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Jul 2010 22:05

CRamS wrote:I don't know if MKB is from India's elite foreign service. If so, he doesn't do any good to their image. Even logically speaking, forget right or wrong, if India is prepared to forgive TSP for 26/11, then where is the need for US to put India TSP dialouge back on track. Thats exactly what TSP wants, and probably thats exactly what MMS wants but for those in his cabinet who have a semblance of nationalism and self respect.

CRS-ji,

MKB is the chief foreign affairs input to Prakash Karat and is considered his right hand man. That should put his writings into perspective.

Munna-saar,

Amazing writeup and superb summation of the story so far. Also, glad to note that you dont seem as pessimistic about GoI/direction Desh is taking compared to 5-6 months ago. Wonder if you noticed any change in wind direction in these 5-6 months?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Jul 2010 22:23

Guys, has B. Raman turned into a Hashish-smoking peacenick. On the other hand, once in a while, Saisuresh Sivaswamy makes some sense.

munna · Post by **munna** » 16 Jul 2010 22:32

sum wrote:Also, glad to note that you dont seem as pessimistic about GoI/direction Desh is taking compared to 5-6 months ago. Wonder if you noticed any change in wind direction in these 5-6 months?

There are no winds of change, rather what we have are complete Doldrums. The success of current setup lies in being status quoist and not changing/disturbing any strategic status quo. Implicit in this is the assumption and a very reasonable one at that, if we manage to let the unresolved issues fester and keep gaining national power, eventually we will be in a position to call the shots. Any compromise or settlement now will institutionalize the mistakes of past with little chance of revisiting them. I turn pessimistic anytime there is talk of some kind of "solution" being offered, sorry boss no solute, solvent or solution for us Indians. Take your kool aid somewhere else.

From media sources it is clear that 'windy' section of government is not finding it that easy anymore to concede and lie prostrate in front of peelanders (they are not done yet there will be more sallies). The wiki definition of Doldrums says

This region is also noted for extremely calm periods when the winds disappear altogether, or are light and shifting. Hurricanes originate in this region. Because of these unpredictable weather patterns, the Doldrums became notorious for trapping sailing ships for days (or even weeks) without enough wind to power their sails

This has to be our paq policy whereby we cannot be boxed into one corner. We may talk we may not talk, we may talk Kashmir, we may talk LMU, yada yada.....

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Jul 2010 22:39

CRamS wrote:Guys, has B. Raman turned into a Hashish-smoking peacenick. On the other hand, once in a while, Saisuresh Sivaswamy makes some sense.

The B Raman article is truely unbelievable.

How do our "experts" keep flipping 180 degrees every alternate week??

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 16 Jul 2010 22:43

M K Bhadrakumar
http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/jul/ ... failed.htm

In sum, there is really no desire on the part of Pakistan to meaningfully engage India at the political and diplomatic level at this juncture. The Pakistani calculation is that time is working in its favour and simply by sitting out for another year or so, Islamabad can negotiate from a position of advantage.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jul 2010 22:48

munna wrote: There are no winds of change, rather what we have are complete Doldrums.

Munnabhai , that sum s up the current situation accurately. you have a way with words. apt thoughts.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Jul 2010 23:03

CRamS wrote:RajeshA:

I see a few flaws in your argument:

1) What if USA does not see 26/11 as a colossal a war crime as it should be seen as, and as India sees it? What if USA tells India, yes, we will live up to our side of the bargain, but unless you are prepared to move on Kashmir, we are not prepared to pressure TSP. In other words, you are assuming US is an honest broker here, and treats India as any ally on par with anglo saxon countries like UK, and other staunch allies like Israel where your analysis would ring true. And I have my doubts on that score.

Those who are allies of USA - UK, Australia, Israel, Taiwan, Gulf, .... they are already allies of the USA. Most are not in conflict zones. Those that are - like Israel, like Taiwan, like Gulf countries, they all respect American leadership, and where America helps all of them on the one hand, America is also able to strengthen its credentials as a superpower on the other. So it is mutually beneficial. These countries are already in America's pocket.

India is on the fence with presumably still an independent policy. Indo-US Civilian Nuclear Agreement was one carrot. That was a carrot from Bush. But India was still not really bought over. Russians were still our friends. We still went our separate way. So it is still an uphill task for America to convince India, that India ought to be a firm American ally. India is not some third-world tin-pot African dictatorship, which can be bought off easily. America would need to keep on working on India to bring India firmly into its sphere of influence. India's courtship by America however cannot be like with other countries. It will be slow and deliberate, without too much outward show that India is necessarily a junior partner. In fact as time passes, USA cannot be sure that India would indeed remain the junior partner, so it must also be cautious how much it accedes.

The other view is of course that our whole political and business leadership and media are already in the hands of the Americans! Whatever ...

My point is simply if America wants to impress a major country that it is still a superpower, it will deliver us those Pakistani terrorists. If America doesn't then next time, India would not go to America. Every time a country does not come to America for help, America loses some of its shine as a superpower. So here is an opportunity for America to show that their power still matters. After all, America also loses face, if it cannot provide justice to India in their world order, especially as India has gone to them. America would have to publicly accede that they do not have influence in their own world order.

Every time America loses face in one place, on one issue, it loses face across the globe - with both friends and with enemies. That is dangerous for America.

But it is up to America, whether they want to avail of the opportunity or they would rather lose face!

CRamS wrote:2) Yes, in public, US counselled restraint after 26/11. But at the same time, since 9/11, US has been supplying lots of military goodies to the very war criminals in Rawilpindi who executed 26/11 and countless other terrorist attacks against India. Plus, if you noticed the frentic pace and alacrity with which Kiyani & Co prepared for war after 26/11, it is clear that they are itching to have go. Thus, what if in private, US tells India, look, we can assure you that should you attack TSP, TSP will hit back and give as good as it takes. And of course, the charming used car salesman BS: great power, growing economy, unprecendented India-US strategic relationship bla bla. Do you want to risk all that will be USA's refrain. Once again, US will repeat, give TSP something on Kashmir, and then we will do our bit.

When America says we will be losing something if we go to war, then they are right. They are only saying what we know ourselves.

Secondly, Americans will not stop following their interests in Central Asia, including those where they require the assistance of TSPA, just because India tells them to, or because it is wrong. India understands that and tries to make the best of a very uncomfortable situation.

Having said that, it doesn't also mean, that they will be willing to put up with everything Pakistan does. Some chess-pieces may have to be sacrificed. Pakistan is unwilling to sacrifice those pieces, but under sufficient pressure, that can change.

Pax-Americana is based on the fact, that every country in it gets awarded but also that every country makes some sacrifices. Now India is indeed making sacrifices, by not endangering too many of American plans for the region, even under attack. So India needs some rewards also.

Similarly Pakistan, another country in Pax-Americana, indeed one far-far deeper in Pax-Americana is getting some rewards, some major rewards, including (for argument sake) that India did not attack, as well as the billions of dollars that find their way to Pakistan. But they also have to make some sacrifices. Sounds like the old mantra of "Do more!"

CRamS wrote:The reason I come to the above conclusions is because it makes me sick to my stomach that in western media, a kind of moral equivalence has been established. See for example, this sick characterization: India wants to talk about 26/11, while TSP wants to talk Kashmir. And then you have that Indian leftist demented scum bag on Beebsinging the same tune.

All that horse manure is irrelevant. It is 400% irrelevant what the British say. The country is a poodle. And dogs bark. What image they project of India is also irrelevant. India is India and we are a pole in the geo-political universe, and they are nothing.

CRamS wrote: Bottom line, this could be the AfPak end game, namely, US is going to step in and politely demand that India forget about 26/11 and talk Kashmir (just as Hafeez Saeed wants). And there is a precedent here. Recall, for several months after Kargil, India blew hot. And then white bahadur ambassador Thomas Pickering lands in Dilli and pomposuly lectures to India, that while Kargil cannot be forgotten, it must be transcended. And wallah, Hajpayee, and "my friend Strobe" promptly delivered by sucking up to the very architect of Kargil: war criminal Mush.

Thus, even seasoned diplomat, M K Bhadrakumar, after blowing hot throught most of this analysis, but finally comes to the most cowardlly conclusion:

Sorry to make you guys throw up.

This whole thing, that America can force India to give Kashmir over to the Pakistanis, is humbug. America does not have that kind of power. Even if all the Western countries converge on India and start telling India that we should give up Kashmir, and even if all the Kashmiris go wild, and even if Pakistan attacks at the same time, it would still have no impact on India. India will hold on to Kashmir! The Americans are aware of that. Right after coming to power, the Democrats very quickly found out, that it is one thing to daydream of how they will solve some issues, and quite another to deliver on them. I don't think, GoI is taking too much advice from Americans on Kashmir.

M. K. Bhadrakumar, I believe, oversees one thing - Either something does not become a bureaucratic/criminal issue in India, and if it does than it has to take its course. One can manipulate to some extent, how one defines, that justice has been done. One can manipulate how long it takes for justice to be done. But the Indian System, just would not allow something so prominent to just fall off the screen.

In India, a dossier is something that has entered the bureaucratic/judicial system. A politician cannot to seen to be openly subverting the system. Law is Law. If the ISI official's name has popped up in a dossier, well it can't be deleted just like that.

I am not saying that justice is always done in India, but the subversion of justice has to be done in the proper way. And I don't think that Indian politics would allow any politician to go that way.

JMTs