J&K News and Discussion-2011

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 25 Feb 2011 12:18

Whoa, RD is on a roll aaj or what?

Yup, those 19th century examples of what the yanks did are pertinent, IMHO. What the chinese are upto in Tibet is the 21st century way, I guess.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Feb 2011 12:20

wig wrote:
Pranav wrote:What are current laws regarding spouses and children of state subjects? Can they become state subjects?
if a male state subject marries a female non state subject then the female and the offspring are entitled to be registered as a state subject.

if a female state subject marries a male non state subject then the female loses her status as a state subject and the children are not entitled to the state subject certificate.

But see this -

An under-pressure Jammu and Kashmir legislative council dropped on Monday a controversial bill that sought to take away the ‘permanent resident’ status of women marrying non-state subjects.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_j- ... us_1367893

Is there any difference between 'state subject' and 'permanent resident'?

wig · Post by **wig** » 25 Feb 2011 12:44

pranav ji,
the terms are used interchangeably. a state subject or permanent resident is granted a PRC (permanent Resident Certificate)
the pronouncement of the J&K high Court i have quoted above stimulated the J&K govt to introduce legislation to deny any rights to jobs, higher education or land ownership in J&K

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Feb 2011 13:35

ManishH wrote: Please pardon my lebensraum bhashan - a nation's objectives must be purely material - land, prosperity, trade, influence, arms. Religion, race etc. are only tactics to achieve those objectives.

And I think its the other way around. Even in terms of realpolitic -- it is the non material issues which give foundation for material ones.

In any case my idea was not to discuss Janmbhoomi, but show how abolition of 370 is absolutely critical to any further moves (either in material or non-material space) in J&K.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Feb 2011 23:49

ManishH wrote:^^^SankuJi, I agree, Janmabhoomi is a different fish. And I concede, tiranga yatra is a good symbolic start.

Please pardon my lebensraum bhashan - a nation's objectives must be purely material - land, prosperity, trade, influence, arms. Religion, race etc. are only tactics to achieve those objectives.

Janmabhoomi, even if successful, will give us a purely non-material gain - sort of pride or self-confidence. But it gives us, nor our progeny, any material benefit.

Whereas reclamation of J&K will give us pride and material benefit, and in years to come, I think even more than what our schoolbook naksha is today.

If a nations objective is purely material - land, prosperity, trade, influence, arms, then it is on a vey weak foundation, and ultimately will lose even those material objects it had gathered. Because all material objects can be destroyed, or they can be exchanged for other objects. So at every time point in the nation's trajectory it will always face the pressure from within, from parts of its own population - to compromise- since compromise is easy and available. It is after all say some more crore of rupees to concede in return for some acres of land. Or a gain of several crores in return for conceding a few acres of land [possibly say from not losing the money potentially from conflicts if insisting on holding on to the acres of land!].

Only when you place the national objective on non-material conditions and objectives, over and above and in addition to material objectives - can you make such non-material objectives less manipulable, or exchangeable. It is not easy to set a price on identity, culture, and cultural icons. [Of course it can be done, theoretically, the so-called utility lottery - but never has been seen to work out in reality!]

What price can you offer for the pre-Islamic culture of India's claim on the Valley? What material objective can you exchange it for? This is why cultural claims are mocked and denigrated so much - because they cannot easily be fit into so-called efficient market laws [which again is after all a hypothesis, and is broken on every real market examples in pieces or in the whole].

Make land/trade/wealth/arms the only legitimate objectives - and you will end up conceding J&K. That is why all mockers of cultural claims of the Hindus on the Valley get so vehement when this issue comes up. It helps their designs if you keep it all materialistic. Then they can set a price and get it to auction. For a profit. For themselves.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Feb 2011 03:24

Munna et al,

J&K not Tunisia

Not Tunisia
Without mishandling, this J and K summer could pass off peacefully, says N.V.Subramanian.

25 February 2011: A paranoid security establishment may overreact and turn its fears into terrible reality. This is this writer's apprehension as Jammu and Kashmir braces for another summer of violence accompanied by overblown fears of a Tunisia-type revolution happening there.

If such was the expectation in the late-eighties/ early nineties, it was understandable. The pro-azaadi movement was peaking. Central intelligence had collapsed. And the Indian Army was yet to pacify the towns and rural areas.

Besides, there were eruptions that were mishandled or unforeseen. There are two examples particularly relevant to this piece. First was Mirwaiz Mohammed Farooq's assassination in May 1990 at Pakistan's instigation.

It was tragic that the murder plot wasn't uncovered in time. But the firing on the Mirwaiz's funeral procession was typical of the overreaction warned against in the first paragraph. It inflamed anti-India sentiments and advanced Pakistan's cause.

The second incident is the revolt in the Srinagar police control room in 1993. Police especially in subordinate ranks were heavily implicated with the separatist movement. In January 1992, a blast in the police headquarters left senior officers, including the DGP, miraculously alive but seriously injured.

The police revolt was contained without bloodshed. But it damaged the confidence of the administration, especially after the headquarters blast for which two policemen eventually were convicted.

The unique quality of the two incidents, if not the incidents themselves, that is, the firing on the Mirwaiz funeral procession and the police revolt, have a bearing on present fears of a Tunisia-type rising in J and K.

Egypt is not relevant because there's no regime-change. The military merely has replaced Hosni Mubarak.

And Libya and Bahrain are not examples separatists would readily embrace, because of unrestrained counterattacks by the state, or loyalists to the regime, leaving hundreds of protestors dead.

The cold fact is that India is not any of these mentioned Middle-East dictatorships. It is a noisy and thriving democracy. Every five years or earlier, governments may be peacefully voted out. Elections are free and fair. (Suspicions about electronic voting machines are being resolved with real-time paper records.)

The same situation obtains in J and K. It has an elected chief minister (however incompetent he is). Kashmiris have the same opportunities as other Indians. They are free to educate themselves and work anywhere in the country.

If the job front daunts Kashmiris, it is no better for Biharis or Bengalis or Maharashtrians. Inflation, corruption, rising food prices, etc, are all-India phenomena. Although with food subsidies, Kashmiris may be vastly better off than other compatriots.

If a hundred-thousand Indians massed up on India Gate lawns and demanded for the prime minister's resignation, that would be significant. But it would still not count as a revolution-in-the-making. After all, greater numbers have elected his government to office.

So nothing like Tunisia or even Egypt can replicate in India. Those were or remain oligarchies. India may be ruled by kleptocratic dynasties. But elections could evict them.

On the other hand, J and K is one of the twenty-eight states of India. The Indian Union has a better measure of control over the state than in the early nineties.

The separatists still have the capacity to surprise the state, as their pawns, the stone-throwers, did. But matters were also worsened by the maladministration of Omar Abdullah.

The present fear centres on a massive demonstration -- say of fifty-thousand persons -- triggering off violence and a full-blown uprising. The state has enough intelligence capability and is armed with laws to prevent this. This writer's apprehension moves in another direction.

A possible repeat of an incident like the police firing on the Mirwaiz's funeral procession troubles this writer. Indeed, Pakistan's ISI may provoke a similar tragedy commencing with the targeted assassination of a Hurriyat moderate. The stone-throwing incident was linked to president Barack Obama's visit. It may not repeat.

The second area of concern is the police force. The separatist movement was successful in the first phase partly because of the militant-police link. The headquarters blast and the police control-room revolt revealed the depth of the nexus.

In subsequent years, the separatist-police collaboration was broken. Indeed, by the mid-nineties, a portion of the successful containment of separatism could be attributed to police work.

This writer is in no position to tell if the situation is the same or if separatist-police nexus is back to or returning to old levels. This is an area to watch.

Rather than Kashmiris marching to storm an imaginary Bastille, a police-force mix-up with the terrorists and separatists constitutes real trouble. In addition to whatever precautions are being taken, it would be wise to check on the J and K police.

A revolution in J and K is a far cry. Without police involvement and direction, even a return to the heady "azaadi" days of the early nineties is inconceivable.

So whats happening in the police? I thought they are now good considering the amount of 'fixing' that was one by govt doctors int eh Sopore case. I mean if govt female doctors concocted evidence to implicate police then they must be the good guys?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 26 Feb 2011 05:42

Ladakh adopts new official logo:

Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council (LAHDC) passed a resolution moved by a Congressman in one voice to adopt a new logo based on national emblem of India. Leh has already not been using state flag of J&K. The new logo will now be permanent feature of Ladakh administration and according to some members of LAHDC; it would be put in operation once the work which is still going on it is complete. “National Emblem of our country is now our logo. Council has already adopted it and we are now giving it final touches to ensure that it represents Ladakh’s administrative set-up in totto,” said Congress leader, Journalist and Councilor of LAHDC Tsewang Rigzin. It was Rigzin who moved the resolution for new logo.

Another councilor said that the new logo would give Ladakh a new identity. “In Jammu and Kashmir, Leh-Ladakh including Kargil are unknown entities. Our region figures nowhere in the official nomenclature of the state. This is first step towards the achievement of larger goal of union territory status,” added another councilor. An official of Jammu and Kashmir government termed the development insignificant and said that it hardly makes any difference what the councilors in Ladakh do. “This does not make any news. A logo is no threat to the unity and integrity of Jammu and Kashmir,” added the official. However, he was mum when asked about which symbol represents Jammu and Kashmir in Ladakh.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 26 Feb 2011 10:33

brihaspati wrote: Only when you place the national objective on non-material conditions and objectives, over and above and in addition to material objectives - can you make such non-material objectives less manipulable, or exchangeable. It is not easy to set a price on identity, culture, and cultural icons. [Of course it can be done, theoretically, the so-called utility lottery - but never has been seen to work out in reality!]
...
What price can you offer for the pre-Islamic culture of India's claim on the Valley? What material objective can you exchange it for? This is why cultural claims are mocked and denigrated so much - because they cannot easily be fit into so-called efficient market laws [which again is after all a hypothesis, and is broken on every real market examples in pieces or in the whole].
...
Make land/trade/wealth/arms the only legitimate obj

BrihaspatiJi: 'wealth' is not in my list of material objectives. I only mentioned 'trade' and 'prosperity'. The former ensures good relation with allies and detente with foes who are stronger than us; the latter ensures vigour of the people. I consider 'wealth' a mere tool.

I share your sentiments on importance of culture. And we have plenty of it. My point was that if we don't aspire for land, then the space needed to exercise our culture will keep shrinking.

As you rightly pointed out, we lost our culture in the valley. I only want to add that it was not
due to our lack of pride or ardour in practicing that culture. It was only because we didn't take
steps to hold onto that land.

We have retreated in the past from Gandhar then Sindhudesh, now we are retreating in Kashmir, tomorrow it might be Kamrup. Not because we don't value our culture, but we undervalue importance of material objectives (land/arms). My belief is that this ill-trend can only reversed by making our material objectives the priority, while letting our culture thrive. Sparta & Athens can live together right ?

Our vedic system was based on balance between culture and material resources needed to perpetuate it. I only advocate restoring the balance, not reversing it.

To all on BRF: Retreat of our civilization from Gandhar/Sindhudesh was not because of leftists or INC sellout. We need to retrospect and fix the root cause of this ill-trend so it does not repeat in J&K

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 26 Feb 2011 14:45

We spared no effort to reach out to separatists: J&K interlocutor

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 492297.ece

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Feb 2011 18:21

ManishH ji,
the "retreat" is quite well documented. At least documented in a form accepted even by professional historians. Professional historians obviosuly see support for their political agenda in the last few kings of Kashmir becoming "iconoclastic" because that makes Islamists seem not much different from "Hindus". They carefully of course suppress the context of such kingly iconoclasm, the peculiar interaction of Kashmiri Buddhism [which appears to have a possible connection to the more puritan iconoclastic sects of Buddhism], and the increasing reliance that Kashmir kings were placing on the central Asian and Islamist mercenaries for their personal power.

The lessons are quite clear : and it wa snot merely a case of confusion over holding on to the land.

(1) The Indian theme of "diversity" and tolerance for diverse opinions can be easily extended by politicians to a tolerance of anything and everything that is convenient for them. This was how Buddhism was taken up as an imperial project, and even if historians now try to suppress the intolerant and militant aspects of Buddhism, [or mercantile opportunism as seen in the rich urbanite Buddhist merchants of Sindh] - its full effects in possible destruction of the fabric of Indian culture has not yet been taken up. Its possible role in Kashmir is not fully investigated. This aspect is again not about land or trade. Buddhist domination in any area appears to coincide with near total extinction of Buddhism and its replacement by Islam as and when Islam reaches it. Moreover - such replacement could be more connected to the puritan and iconoclastic Buddhist sects rather than the more liberal ones.

(2) Rulers in India have often shown a tendency to rely more on extremely violent and expansive foreign elements as a countermeasure to their own population with whom they fail to identify and whom they distrust or secretly look down upon. Harsha of Kashmir and his successors increasingly built up higher proportion of Islamist mercenaries in their security apparatus and also supported Islamist preachers. We can easily see that the mentality persists in modern India. This is not about land - but a cultural alienation and self-hatred.

(3) A corresponding and matching obstinacy in allowing "externals" to "convert" into Indic fold. Again the same mentality of superiority by birth, intense hatred and distrust of those not born into "pure" bloodlines - even if they happen to be fellow countrymen and sharing in the same cultural framework. The attitude that hides behind the intense determination to sharpen Islamist or Christianist exclusivity claims by protecting and nurturing them to prevent their "conversion" into the Indic. In case of Kashmir, it was apparently the refusal by the then KP to accept a Tibetan exile leader of mercenaries into Shaivism - which led to the guy switching over to Islam under a preacher who was keen to get converts. This is the guy who became the first Islmic sultan of the valley. Not a case of land and trade.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 26 Feb 2011 22:49

The Kashmiri fighters who lost their cause

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 27 Feb 2011 08:59

Militancy victims of Jammu staging a demonstration in front of Raj Bhawan on Saturday.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Feb 2011 10:19

Mufti wants roundtable to find a durable solution

“I also request the Prime Minister to fulfil all these demands, so that a congenial atmosphere is created for talks. Once these demands are met, the Prime Minister should hold a roundtable conference with all stakeholders, separatists and the mainstream parties.”

The onus is always on the GoI to 'create a congenial atmosphere'. The separatists like him, the stone pelters, the terrorists and their supporters have absolutely no responsibility whatsoever.

What talks does he demand with the separatists ? On how to separate ?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Feb 2011 01:02

Pak should act responsibly on maintaining ceasefire: Omar

Maintaining that peace along the borders is in interest of both India [ Images ] and Pakistan, Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] Chief Minister Omar Abdullah [ Images ] on Sunday asked Islamabad [ Images ] to act responsibly to ensure that there is no violation of ceasefire.
"While we are taking every care from our side not to indulge in violation of ceasefire, Pakistan should also act responsibly in this regard and help maintain truce along the borders," Omar said while interacting with locals and Border Security Force personnel along the Indo-Pak border in R S Pura sector of Jammu district.
"Peace along the borders is in mutual interest of the two neighbours," he said and called for positive and visible response from the other side of the border in this regard."We are always for better Indo-Pak relations and have taken many initiatives to this effect," he added.Asserting that good relations between India and Pakistan were key to peace and development in the region, Omar said, "Friends can b changed but not the neighbours".

He along with the divisional commissioner of Jammu andInspector General of the BSF visited many villages and interacted with people to know about the difficulties they are facing.
"If there is peace along the borders, farmers can take part in agricultural activities and carry on their normal process of living," he said, adding that friendly ties between the two neighbours is the need of hour.Omar said that government has worked out an arrangement with the BSF for providing rent for the land used by the force for fencing till the time it is properly acquired."Papers for acquiring the land are being finalised and the divisional commissioner of Jammu is on the job", he said, adding that the land owners would get compensation for the land when it is acquired by the BSF.The CM lauded the services of jawans in protecting the borders. "Your valuable duty during severe winters and summers is commendable and we are aware of your sacrifices for safeguarding the borders," he told the jawans and assured them all facilities from the state.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/pak-s ... 110227.htm

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 28 Feb 2011 11:58

BrihaspatiJi, diversity is a double-edged sword. While predatory diversity from foreign lands is a threat, internal diversity eg. Sikhism and it's military tenets have only helped preserve our culture.

I share your views on islamic forces invasions causing the said "retreat". My only complaint about Buddhism is that it added to the pacifist and fatalist school of thought in India. I do not share your views of Buddhism having destroyed any of the culture - I think it was natural process of internal innovation.

We could have survived conversion of a few Hindu rulers or elites in Kashmir by these invaders, but not the wholesale conversions of our peasantry that was the solid foundation for "holding that land". As you rightly say, cultural rigidity contributed to the latter.

Certainly, the Sikh reclamation of Kashmir initially did not have cultural objectives, only raw hunger for natural resources. No doubt, if it was followed by a cultural reclamation of the peasantry, it would have permanently reversed our retreat in J&K.

I have no disagreement with strengthening the Sanatan culture. But let's not make it as the sole objective. I think space and natural resources are much more important for national survival. A beginning must be made in J&K.

Just want to briefly mention the Anglo-Saxons aren't so much motivated by their culture but have an extra-ordinary understanding of the need for space and natural resources. The theory of white man's burden and divine christian responsibility were only made to justify their basic greed.

Looking forward to your views ...

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 01 Mar 2011 07:21

GEELANI RETURNING TO KASHMIR TODAY.
Marking the end of winter, and the beginning of Summer, the migratory bird, is back to valley from his house in
new delhi.
And the show begins!
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2011 ... day-29.asp

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Mar 2011 07:28

ManishH wrote
BrihaspatiJi, diversity is a double-edged sword. While predatory diversity from foreign lands is a threat, internal diversity eg. Sikhism and it's military tenets have only helped preserve our culture.

This is taking the discussion in another direction, and will soon go into dangerous channels about how "diverse" Sikhs are, and whether in many ways they are rather not revivalists of an earlier understanding of SD. Stating any of these is risky. OT. My main point was something else - the fact that there is a persistent demand that only the SD/Hindu must show "tolerance" for everything and anything, and not any other threads or sects/groups. It was this demand which I connected to politicians using it as a means of protecting and supporting any exclusive/arrogant/intolerant claims. Sikhs are not a counter-example to what I said.

I share your views on islamic forces invasions causing the said "retreat". My only complaint about Buddhism is that it added to the pacifist and fatalist school of thought in India. I do not share your views of Buddhism having destroyed any of the culture - I think it was natural process of internal innovation.

Actually I did not mention Islamic invasion as "causing" the said "retreat". I gave three aspects, which were more concerned with non-Muslim role in the retreat. Discussing the Buddhist role will go OT. However even a brief study of the history of Buddhism in India should convince you that Buddhists did play a role in deliberate destruction or removal of competing cultures. There are studies that connect defacing of say Roman coins in coastal/western/central India with advent of Hinayana Buddhism. Taranath writes about Sindhi Buddhists zeal for violent (and not abstract or theoretical) iconoclasm. Read the history of the councils and conflicts over the schisms. Many of the Paati-moksha strictures should immediately make you suspicious - they sound like dealing with "casteism/segregation/untouchability" developing within the sangha. The history of Buddhism in Kashmir should also make interesting study and will definitely shake your confidence about "Buddhist" role being entirely pacifist and fatalist. Even the world history of Buddhist sects that spread oiut from various sects of Indian Buddhism - and yes Kashmiri Buddism - will be fascinating as to attitude towards "violence". There are no natural processes of "innovations" - innovations are always, always consciously human induced. In the Buddhist case it was imperialism. Buddhism rose and fell with centralized imperial control and ambition.

Rather than being "fatalists" and "pacifists" Buddhists as in Sindh appear to have actively collaborated in the destruction of their fellow countrymen's culture by helping invading genocidic armies.

We could have survived conversion of a few Hindu rulers or elites in Kashmir by these invaders, but not the wholesale conversions of our peasantry that was the solid foundation for "holding that land". As you rightly say, cultural rigidity contributed to the latter.

I did not mention conversion of a few Kings or elite in Kashmir. I pointed out their attitude of favouring Muslims, increasing Muslim representation in administration and the security setup, and supporting or allowing Islamist preachers. Even in Kalhana, this is seen as reflecting the kings distrust and hatred of Brahmins and his birth culture. Peasantry is not the army. In an organized empire steps are taken to keep producers non-weaponized, emasculated, or relatively weak compared to the imperial forces. This is simply to ensure unchallenged enjoyment of absolute power by the autocrat. When the leaders/elite fall or are seen to submit, especially when their own elite are seen to be repudiating or deriding their own birth culture - wht amake you think that non-militarized, hated-for-their-culture peasantry would rise successfully to defend these elite?

Certainly, the Sikh reclamation of Kashmir initially did not have cultural objectives, only raw hunger for natural resources. No doubt, if it was followed by a cultural reclamation of the peasantry, it would have permanently reversed our retreat in J&K.

This could be a highly disputed and long debate over historical motivations. Better persons than me exist on the forum to engage on this. But could be OT. Reconversion work was either not seriously pursued, or there were not sufficient resources for this in the hands of the young regional dynasty, or there was resistance from sections of the KP (there is a claim of one KP clan being excluded because they converted tactically and being refused when they wanted to "return").

I have no disagreement with strengthening the Sanatan culture. But let's not make it as the sole objective. I think space and natural resources are much more important for national survival. A beginning must be made in J&K.

I did not say sole. I said foundational objective, over which you also add the material ones. Rather my point was not to place the material objective above the foundational ideological ones. I also gave reasons for this - stating that putting monetary prices on ideology is a most difficult task, and hence foundation on ideological grounds makes it more resistant to financial/mercantile manipulations.

Just want to briefly mention the Anglo-Saxons aren't so much motivated by their culture but have an extra-ordinary understanding of the need for space and natural resources. The theory of white man's burden and divine christian responsibility were only made to justify their basic greed.

This is perhaps a common misconception because we often fall for the propaganda that the culture of the Anglo-Saxon is somehow distinct from the material objectives. Please note that the Judaic texts centre around a key promise by Yhwh to the Mosaic community of promising them land, and sometimes ordering the followers to cleanse ethnically a place for takeover and this was a part of the long line of agreements as part of the original "covenant". All texts derived from this foundational principle never denounce this "covenant".

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 01 Mar 2011 07:44

FOR THOSE WHO SAY UPA DOES NOT CARE FOE PUNDITS?
The Prime Minister will also be addressing the annual convocation of Sher-e-Kashmir Agricultural University besides handing over near 800 of the 2400 flats meant for Kashmiri migrant pandits, they said.
The Budget has announced Rs 8000 crore special package for Kashmir besides a separate Rs 150 crore for Jammu region and Rs 100 crore for Ladakh based on the recommendations of the two task forces set up to go into allocations in terms of infrastructure needs and make suitable recommendations to overcome the deficiencies..
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=4975953

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Mar 2011 08:33

^^^Tokenism of the typical sort..

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 01 Mar 2011 13:58

I guess, ManishH ji is referring to remembering and restating our original motto - "कृण्वन्तो विश्वं आर्यं " - Krinvanto Vishvam Aaryam - Civilize the world..

or should it be aryanize the world..

Indics need a serious reform to re-inculcate this tendency.

I was reading valmiki Ramayana previous week.. along with that, i read sinhasan battisi and vetaal pachchisi.. the emphasis of the latter two stories in on "Daan". King is coaxed time and again to distribute his wealth. the recipients of that wealth are typically brahmins and shudras.

in Ramayana, kings require to coaxing to indulge in daan-satra. It refers to an ideal which society should strive for.

i was thinking, what made society so secure that kings could afford giving up power (read money) so easily. while money is power today, it does not appear to be so in ramayana or stories of vikramaditya.

both kings (raam and vikramaditya) possessed mythical weapons (or at least so was the propagandu amongst aam janta). This is again in sync with chanakya's advise to kings regarding spreading rumours about king's mythical prowesses. the kings in this narrative frequently venture out for ashwamedha conquests. apart from vikramaditya, other kings are not described venturing in CAR realistically (descriptions matching facts and geography). but it appears that somehow, kings maintained a "sanitized" region around Dharmik India. along with that, there a fearless indic society which did not bind itself by taboos and 7 social prohibitions. to make world arya, one has to be fearless. one has to understand completely in his mind-body-intellect his superiority (nothing racial in this connotation).

to understand this, one has to again check the actual verse from Rigveda..

इन्द्रं वर्धन्तो अप्तुरः कृण्वन्तो विश्वं आर्यं अपघ्नन्तो अराव्णः (Indram vardhanto apturah krinvanto vishwam aaryam apaghnanto araavNah) - RV 9:63:5

Here the key word is "AraavNah (अराव्णः) which categorically means "one who isn't liberal, hence of jealous and hostile ideology"..

Augmented by Indra's strength, civilize the world by destroying the non-liberal and jealous ones (ideologies).

This automatically says that arya are those who are broad minded and hence dharmik. I think, in current times, (past 1000 years), it has never been more easier to identify the jealous and non-liberal ideologies. The books of these schools proudly proclaim that they are jealous and conservative ideologies. How much more easier can it be for a dharmik to segregate and then clean.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 02 Mar 2011 00:33

Thank you for that post Atri.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 02 Mar 2011 06:56

Atri wrote: or should it be aryanize the world..

Indics need a serious reform to re-inculcate this tendency.

Atri-ji, and how exactly is this noble goal to be achieved?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Mar 2011 08:37

somnath wrote:
Atri wrote: or should it be aryanize the world..

Indics need a serious reform to re-inculcate this tendency.
Atri-ji, and how exactly is this noble goal to be achieved?

As a start use Russel Peter Formula,
By sending 200 Million vigorous Aryaputras to rejuvinate dying European race . In last few centuries European have taken over the land far above their need. Aryaputras can accomplish the sacred task of taking over the land and people via generational route. Good and win win for both.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 02 Mar 2011 12:23

600 former militants in PoK want to return: Omar

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/600-f ... ar/756700/

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 02 Mar 2011 17:02

somnath wrote:
Atri wrote: or should it be aryanize the world..

Indics need a serious reform to re-inculcate this tendency.
Atri-ji, and how exactly is this noble goal to be achieved?

It is interesting and intriguing to see how you selectively quoted these two sentences from my entire post..

I have answered your question in that post itself.. If you had cared to read it OR quote it completely, you would have found the answers there itself..

please visit deracination thread in gdf for more details..

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 02 Mar 2011 18:38

Atri wrote: It is interesting and intriguing to see how you selectively quoted these two sentences from my entire post..

I have answered your question in that post itself.. If you had cared to read it OR quote it completely, you would have found the answers there itself..

please visit deracination thread in gdf for more details..

Not selectively quoting at all..I didnt really find any concrete action plan in the post (or in the other thread that you referred) for your thoughts of "aryanising" the world (or destroy "non-liberals", whatever that means)..I mean, Valmiki etc might be good discussion at some level, but how does it enable you achive your objectives in practical 21st century terms?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 02 Mar 2011 18:43

hence, I said, please visit deracination thread.. your criticism will be earnestly welcomed there.. The state of Indics is such that we have forgotten the very method of determining what needs to be preserved and what needs to go..

there is no "concrete action plan".. there need not be one.. if you agree with the ideas in that thread, you will implement them in your life and tell about them to your friends.. this is concrete action plan..

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 02 Mar 2011 20:29

menon s wrote:FOR THOSE WHO SAY UPA DOES NOT CARE FOE PUNDITS?
The Prime Minister will also be addressing the annual convocation of Sher-e-Kashmir Agricultural University besides handing over near 800 of the 2400 flats meant for Kashmiri migrant pandits, they said.
The Budget has announced Rs 8000 crore special package for Kashmir besides a separate Rs 150 crore for Jammu region and Rs 100 crore for Ladakh based on the recommendations of the two task forces set up to go into allocations in terms of infrastructure needs and make suitable recommendations to overcome the deficiencies..
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=4975953

Apart from the 8000:150 ratio, which means Jammu which has already borne the brunt of the Kashmiri agitation - having to do with less spending and more people - will now get a paltry 150 crore.

But flats? Does it imply multistoried apartments? That means many Pundit families individually owning cubic metres of air, and jointly owning only one piece of land. Is it possible to calculate what land and property they left when they fled for safety, and what theyw ill now be getting? Its a good strategy if its multistoried. This means they can all be now squeezed into a small space for Jihadis to come an have their pick of the women and kill the men or extract whatever other legitimate democratic demands the valley Muslims may feel from time to time. It reminds me of the beehive, which humans allow to grow in corners of their properties - so that the bees gather honey and then they can be smoked away.

Why not the original land and property - some of which have been typically occupied and "sold" by the doyens of humanitarian democratic aspirations?

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 03 Mar 2011 09:01

brihaspati wrote: But flats? Does it imply multistoried apartments? That means many Pundit families individually owning cubic metres of air, and jointly owning only one piece of land.

Flats smells of a cop-out to me - something to avoid secessionist objections. I'd have preferred hectares of arable land. But as a symbolic gesture, esp. when we like to think of UPA as vote-bank-hungry petty party, it's a surprise.

AtriJi: Please expand on your aryanisation ideas and their applicability to J&K. I might have misunderstood your ideas but I think there's little hope of civilizing a reluctant brute (secessionists in J&K) but greater chances to coax our own land-starved aryas to settle in J&K.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Mar 2011 09:02

Militant dies in Kashmir gunfight

On Wednesday a Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) militant was killed and an army officer injured in a fierce gun battle between militants and police and security forces at Dadasar in Tral in south Kashmir.

Police said a joint team of police and army launched a cordon-and-search operation in Dadsar village in the morning.

The cops and security men moved towards a house belonging to Gulam Mohammad Mir. They found a militant hiding there. He was asked to surrender but he refused. This led to an encounter and continued for some time. The house was extensively damaged in the encounter.

Later body of the militant was recovered from the debris. Police identified him as JeM’s Shabir Ahmad Khan of Ladiyar-Tral. An army officer was injured in the encounter and his condition was stated to be stable.On Monday evening militants lobbed a hand grenade towards police men at Batamaloo here. Two cops and an engineer were injured. The engineer later succumbed to his injuries. On Monday evening the militants allegedly shot dead a contractor at Kreeri village in Baramulla district.

Suddenly, some Porki activity in J&K

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 Mar 2011 17:02

Another lifafa article, shows what the govt wants

As militancy ebbs, time to ease up in J&K?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 615917.cms

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Mar 2011 17:10

Ah, the good ol' textbook trial balloon being floated by GoI to gauge reactions for the "bold" initiatives in the pipeline. Similar to the trial balloons floated few years back when every debate in MSM was whether J&K should be let go off since they were too costly and anyways, the people there hated us

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 Mar 2011 17:22

Remember this article: http://www.hindustantimes.com/Think-the ... 31689.aspx

After Niira Radia, we know who was behind those views.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 03 Mar 2011 22:18

There is more to it than meets the eye

India would find itself severely compromised if called upon to handle a border war with China and put down a staged Egyptian style uprising in Kashmir simultaneously, says Vivek Gumaste

Drawing an exaggerated, distorted and incongruous parallel between Egypt and Kashmir with the diabolical intent of craftily exploiting the burgeoning global goodwill for democratic uprisings, People's Democratic Party president Mehbooba Mufti declared recently that her party would launch a protest campaign for 'Azaadi' along the lines of the Egypt mass demonstration.To dismiss this gesture, as just another routine up tick in the constantly oscillating vagaries of Kashmiri politics would be a gargantuan mistake: for there is more to it than meets the eye.

First, the fact that Kashmir boasts a democratic government demolishes the validity of such a move. And second, even the modicum of propriety that this call entails at the outset withers away when one meticulously dissects Mehbooba Mufti's pronouncement to unearth the ulterior motive underlying this ostensible cry for self-determination.

In a power point presentation that embellished this seditious exhortation, the PDP tauntingly exhibited a refigured map of Kashmir that endorsed China's suzerainty over Aksai Chin and the Karakoram region of Kashmir in direct contravention of India's claim.Then in an attempt to give a secular and modernistic cloak to what is basically a fundamentalist religious movement, the PDP chief invoked the historical Silk Route that was once the hub of commercial activity in the region to demand that Srinagar be linked to the Chinese-built Karkoram highway via Yarkand in China to enhance economic progress.Neither was the map an accidental oversight and nor was the demand an innocent entreaty. Both underlined a sinister agenda: a ploy to curry favour with China and draw that nation directly into an internal dispute so as to pit India against a stronger adversary as opposed to a crumbling, ineffectual Pakistan.Or from another perspective: Could this antic be the initial salvo of a larger game plan being carried out at the behest of China with the PDP acting as the proverbial pawn?

Fuelling this suspicion is China's aggressive posturing on Kashmir in recent times, which raises legitimate concerns of China exploiting India's quandary in Kashmir to stamp its geo-political dominance in the region and further its economic interests; a win-win situation from the Chinese standpoint that kills two birds with one stone.Acutely conscious of India's growing economic clout that poses a significant challenge to its vision of global domination and extremely wary of India's increasing proximity to Washington, China sees in the Kashmir impasse an opportunity to 'put India in its place'; an action that would send an unequivocal message to both Washington and its aficionados in China's neighbourhood that China will not brook any interference in what it considers to be its geo-political sphere of influence.And to achieve this end, China considers war to be an acceptable option to counter emerging US alliances in the region as a recent article in the Qiushi Journal, the official publication of the ruling Communist Party of China indicates: "We must send a clear signal to our neighbouring countries that we don't fear war, and we are prepared at any time to go to war to safeguard our national interests."

The PDP's pronouncement assumes an ominous significance when viewed against the backdrop of a strategic commentary that appeared on a semi-official Chinese website in 2009 (International Institute for Strategic Studies) wherein a case was made for the balkanisation of India by stoking simmering sub national aspirations that included Kashmir: "China in its own interest and the progress of Asia, should join forces with different nationalities like the Assamese, Tamils, and Kashmiris and support the latter in establishing independent nation-States of their own, out of India."What is especially concerning is that while India has long been aware of clandestine Chinese support to Maoists and separatist elements in the North East, this incident is the first sign of a possible nexus, purely verbal though it maybe, between anti-national or quasi separatist elements in Kashmir and China.The PDP despite being a registered political party often espouses policies that smack of separatist tendencies like advocating the free use of Pakistani currency.

Additionally China has another axe to grind in Kashmir: a pressing economic interest as delineated by the South Asia policy wonk Selig Harrison (China's Discreet Hold on Pakistan's Northern Borderlands. International Herald Tribune, August 26, 2010): "China wants a grip on the region to assure unfettered road and rail access to the Gulf through Pakistan. It takes 16 to 25 days for Chinese oil tankers to reach the Gulf. When high-speed rail and road links through Gilgit and Baltistan are completed, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built Pakistani naval bases at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, just east of the Gulf, within 48 hours."India is the fly in the ointment in this Chinese grand design for these crucial links traverse through disputed territory that India claims as its own, including the 5,180 square kilometers of land illegally ceded to China by Pakistan in 1963 to build the Karkoram highway. With an independent, malleable Kashmir, China would resolve this problem once and for all.

China subscribes to a characteristic modus operandi that involves a calibrated escalation of hostilities, which culminate in a violent military coup de grace as demonstrated by the debacle of 1962.The last two years have witnessed a mounting Chinese diplomatic offensive like the issuing of stapled visas to Kashmiris and the current phase may represent intensification of this strategy by making common cause with disgruntled elements within India (Kashmiris) -- all in preparation for an all out war that may follow. India should take heed.India would find itself severely compromised if called upon to handle a border war with China and put down a staged Egyptian style uprising in Kashmir simultaneously.India must take all measures to ensure that such a predicament does not come to pass by promptly nipping in the bud the subversive activities of China and its minions in Kashmir.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Mar 2011 22:44

Let the Bangladeshis deal with Kashmir! They can do it better than us!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Mar 2011 22:52

somnath wrote: Not selectively quoting at all..I didnt really find any concrete action plan in the post (or in the other thread that you referred) for your thoughts of "aryanising" the world (or destroy "non-liberals", whatever that means)..I mean, Valmiki etc might be good discussion at some level, but how does it enable you achive your objectives in practical 21st century terms?

I admire your admiration for "modernism for modernism sake"!

A humble question - would your 21st century ideas that were built upon 20th century transformations be applicable in the coming 22nd century?

How often your time shifts to remain modern, every 10-20-50-100-150-200-300-500-1000-3000-5000-10000 years?

Can there be anything eternal (sanatan) in your world view? If so what it is?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Mar 2011 22:56

RajeshA wrote:Let the Bangladeshis deal with Kashmir! They can do it better than us!

RajeshAji,

First Bharatiyas have to revert Bangladeshis before they can be unleashed on others.

Kashmir is a very small problem compared BDlands.

All GOI needs to solve Cashmir problem is a pair of cajoons. Simply dissolve A370 and clean the mess that comes out of it.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Mar 2011 00:02

It is time that fools on media pedestals learn that it is sometimes wiser not to put ideas into people's heads by opening their wonderful mouths. Repeatedly raising the spectre of an Egyptian style "uprising" on the canvas of the Valley and harping on how eeak and unresisting the GOI necessarily has to be - is big service to cause of Kashmiri Jihadis. Or maybe they are preparing the way for GOI to make moves that can be passed off as pre-emptive conciliatory gestures?

They should keep in mind, that it will not free them of the responsibility in a future time, and they would be seen as traitors of the same bracket as any GOI which may concede to Valley Islamist separatis exclusivity claims.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Mar 2011 16:14

'India willing to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan'

As predicted Pakis have won, no action against 26/11 prepatrators but we are discussing Kashmir is Disputed. Great!!!

MMS supporters please explain yet anther Chanakya Move starting from SES.

This Govt. is a disaster from a National security and corruption angle.

James B · Post by **James B** » 04 Mar 2011 16:45

menon s wrote:FOR THOSE WHO SAY UPA DOES NOT CARE FOE PUNDITS?
The Prime Minister will also be addressing the annual convocation of Sher-e-Kashmir Agricultural University besides handing over near 800 of the 2400 flats meant for Kashmiri migrant pandits, they said.
The Budget has announced Rs 8000 crore special package for Kashmir besides a separate Rs 150 crore for Jammu region and Rs 100 crore for Ladakh based on the recommendations of the two task forces set up to go into allocations in terms of infrastructure needs and make suitable recommendations to overcome the deficiencies..
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=4975953

This is what Tarun Vijay of BJP tweeted

PM inaugurating housing scheme for Kashmiri Refugees in Jammu today. Each flat has only one room - 9 feet by 10ft. Rubbing salt on wounds