Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 22 Mar 2012 21:24

JTull wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:If it comes to converting civilian planes to tankers then we have a boatload of planes we can get from Kingfisher airlines
Planes belong to the creditors and not to the people of India. KFA has tax liabilities to Indian govt, but on top of that it has $1.3 billion of debt. Moreover it has massive future payments towards new aircrafts.

Anyone wanting to get hold of those aircraft will have to pay off the govt, the creditors, the fuel companies, the aircraft manufacturers and then have to pay large sums to convert the aircraft to a cargo configuration. Awful waste of capital!

JTull, I know, it was a tongue in cheek comment, my 400 KFA shares have driven me crazy

. Yup they dont make financial sense at all. BTW, most of KFA planes are dry leased, not outright purchased. so if anyone wants to get them they will just continue to pay the lease after possession. In defence terms leasing is a very attractive with options to purchase at a later point. Like India's Nerpa.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Mar 2012 21:27

shiv wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I was hoping that this one project - IJT - would leverage the learning in LCA program and we'll be able to showcase results in aviation domain. Sigh!!!
Rohit. Betting one bottle of Hundred Pipers the next time we meet. Chorgupta is wrong and gassing as usual. No proof. No "inside info" Just a hunch.

My sentiments, too shiv saar and the drink(s) will be on me.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Mar 2012 22:30

Austin wrote:
33 % composite by weight is quite good even by todays modern standards , 500 Kg weight savings will compensate weight issue that it has faced in its early development.

They should work in parallel with the low cost carrier and begin pitching Saras as means for short distance regional transport which needs minimum airport infrastructure to operate .....commercial sale would add value to the aircraft and boost confidence of HAL and End Customer.

Yes, it is a lot of weight for a plane the size of the Saras. the 500 kg weight savings and the increased power of the engines from 800 shp to 1200 shp will make a big difference to the performance of the Saras.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Mar 2012 23:22

Kartik wrote:Yes, it is a lot of weight for a plane the size of the Saras. the 500 kg weight savings and the increased power of the engines from 800 shp to 1200 shp will make a big difference to the performance of the Saras.

It should but i think i had read before that Saras was already quite over weight and shaving extra flab was already on the anvil , so its possible the 500 kg loss could be more than just composite.

Extra power means its good for hot and high operation , so its a great boon for NE operators and short range regional operation in far North and West, hopefully they are actively pursuing civil operators beyond the military customers.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 23 Mar 2012 06:55

if you're on microsoft flight simulator, here is the scenery for Bagdogra Airport

http://flyawaysimulation.com/downloads/ ... t-scenery/

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 20:47

JBT AeroTech awarded $5.5 million for Halvorsen 25K Loaders for Indian Air Force C-17A Globemaster III

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 27 Mar 2012 21:15

IAF’s sourcing spares for MIG planes from outside Russia “wrong”: Envoy

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Mar 2012 06:58

karan_mc wrote:IAF’s sourcing spares for MIG planes from outside Russia “wrong”: Envoy

Sir, you actually publish such trash?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Mar 2012 16:18

Raytheon begins Munitions Control Unit part procurement For IAF Jaguar Darin II upgrades

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2012 16:53

looks like a huge PGM order is imminent to upteeth the Jaguars.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 29 Mar 2012 19:32

Upgradation of Mirage Aircraft

Contracts have been signed with M/s Thales, France and M/s Dassault Aviation, France, along with M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for upgrade of the Mirage 2000 aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF). A contract has also been signed with M/s MBDA, France, for procurement of air to air missiles for the Mirage 2000 aircraft.

The cost of the contract for upgrade of the Mirage 2000 with M/s Thales and M/s Dassault Aviation is Euro 1470 Million, while the cost of the contract with M/s HAL is Rs.2020 crore. The cost of the contract for procurement of the missiles from M/s MBDA, France, is Euro 958,980,822.44.

The entire upgradation of the Mirage aircraft is scheduled to be completed by 2021. Delivery of MICA missiles is scheduled between 2015 and 2019.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 29 Mar 2012 22:34

saps wrote:
Austin wrote:hat would be the best thing that can happen , I recollect looking at HTT-35 mockup and its superb cockpit view with those bubble canopy .... why they should import a trainer is something beyond me when way back in 1995 HAL has been displaying HTT-35 mockup.
Even though i fully agree that we should buy desi, however in its entire life span of at least two decade HPT 32 produced by HAL could not be sorted out for its engine cuts.
Come on lets be realistic, wishing to do something and delivering a reliable product are miles apart.

100% agreed. Nationalistic Pride & Patriotism has nothing to do with producing quality AC...each and every single one (not just the initial batch).

Also need more players in the AC Manufacturing segment. Healthy competition for government funding might yield better products??? Wishful thinking for now.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 29 Mar 2012 22:40

Yogi_G wrote:So the source of smoke is just like good old smoke --> incomplete combustion? If I am not wrong incomplete combustion means reduced thrust from engine in those altitude regimes where engines get smoky?

It can also be the quality of Jet Fuel.

What is the standard Jet Fuel for AF?

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 29 Mar 2012 22:49

Indian Air Force To Take Delivery Of All 10 Boeing C-17 By Aug 2014 : Boeing

Americans sure do deliver on time

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Mar 2012 10:48

venku_Raj wrote:Indian Air Force To Take Delivery Of All 10 Boeing C-17 By Aug 2014 : Boeing

Americans sure do deliver on time

I think we are comparing apples and oranges here, C-130's and C-17 have been produced in huge nos with limited customization. Cant be compared to Gorhskov, Mig 29K or scorpenes. The Russian joint head of Brahmos has claimed that Brahmos will be fired from Scorpenes, such customisations might not have been part of the original deal, as of now if things go well we even want the Indian AIP to be integrated with the last 2 scorpenes.

Are the Americans delivering Boeing 787 on time to Air India? I hope the P-8I's which look on schedule get delivered on time.

Equipment with GSQR's which are futuristic or cutting edge will always have delays, I don't think the IAF's C-130J or C-17's special -ops and transport planes had any technology hurdles and have been used by American forces for a long time.

Its like saying in the past Soviets delivered Mig 23, Mig 21, T-72's on time. These items were sold to us well after they were inducted in Soviet forces.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 08:02

Aditya_V wrote:Are the Americans delivering Boeing 787 on time to Air India? I hope the P-8I's which look on schedule get delivered on time.

Equipment with GSQR's which are futuristic or cutting edge will always have delays, I don't think the IAF's C-130J or C-17's special -ops and transport planes had any technology hurdles and have been used by American forces for a long time.

Its like saying in the past Soviets delivered Mig 23, Mig 21, T-72's on time. These items were sold to us well after they were inducted in Soviet forces.

US deliveries worldwide have been robust in terms of time. They have one of the most advanced weapons and mil complex. They have issues perfecting Fifth gen types, but have shown the capability to deliver technologies below that in record time. Rest of the world struggles to deliver what US delivers with ease.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 31 Mar 2012 13:46

It's not as if Americans are late in delivering P-8Is for IN, which is a new aircraft. They surely know how to estimate the time of delivery at the time of signing the contract. That must be acknowledged.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Apr 2012 15:46

From a silent hill, these men defend India's skies

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Apr 2012 22:13

Lockheed bags deal to supply laser-guided bombs to IAF

Since the article mentions "bunker-busting" version of Paveway II, it is most likely the GBU-10 kit that is used on a 2,000-lb bomb. IAF has ordered an initial batch of around 100 kits which will most likely be followed by few hundred more once integrated w/ Jaguars (with a new Raytheon's Munitions Control Units (MCU)), inducted and validated. Rafale is already qualified with GBU-10.

Paveway II Dual Mode Laser Guided Bomb (DMLGB)

The Lockheed Martin Paveway II Dual Mode Laser Guided Bomb (DMLGB) is the next generation laser guided bomb kit that uses the existing Paveway II Laser Guided Bomb infrastructure and upgrades the existing Computer Control Group (CCG) system with an Inertial Navigation System/Global Positioning System (INS/GPS), an all-weather guidance system that provide dual-mode guidance capability. With the combination of the upgraded INS/GPS system, existing SAL (semi-active laser) seeker and anti-jam technology, the DMLGB minimizes collateral damage and improves mission effectiveness by providing precision strike capabilities in all weather at extended standoff ranges. The DMLGB is effective against fixed, relocatable and moving targets.

The Paveway II GBU-16 kits are used on 1,000-lb bombs, while GBU-10 and GBU-12 kits are used on 2,000-lb and 500-lb bombs, respectively. Lockheed Martin kits are capable of employment by F/A-18, F-16, F-15, F-117 and other aircraft currently configured to carry and release Laser Guided Bombs. The SAL seeker technology and upgraded INS/GPS guidance system are mature, affordable and proven in combat.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2012 07:14

Does IAF have 2000lbs bombs? Is the Jag qualified for 2000lbs bombs?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2012 07:31

imo it will be GBU-16. our std weapon is 1000lb while USAF preferred 2000lb in the past.

Jags can carry 6 x 1000lb normal bombs - 4 under the fuselage and 2 under the wings, with 2 drop tanks and 2 AAMs as a peak load I think. but usually might carry 4 x 1000lb.
the Mirage2000 is also known to carry 6 x 1000lb and infact used such a loadout in the attack on paki supply dump in kargil. I recall a press conf saying 4 M2K had dropped 24 bombs on target.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2012 08:24

GD, The US 2000 Lbs bomb is called the Mk 84 bomb. It was designed by Heinnaman of McDouglas Aircraft. He came up with a bomb family from 500, 1000, 2000 lbs. The units consist of the basic mid section with standard tail section and a bunch of fuses forward and tail. They are called GP or general purpose bombs with a lot of blast. They have some good concrete penetration capability. The Brits use the 1000lbs wih forged steel casing which is even better concrete penetration capability.

Some where in mid 70s the USAF wanted hard target penetration bombs. And there was a initial model called APW Advanced Penetration Weapon. That evolved into the I -series of which I-2000 was shown in the Gulf War I.

Anyway massa has given a lot of Paveway and JDAM kits to TSP.

I once talked to the designer of some of these. He said kinetic energy based bombs will kill the target dead. One hit one target. All those shaped charge bombs of UK look glamorous but are not effective. Nothing beats big Mo ie momentum.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Apr 2012 09:20

^^^

Before PGM capability, large bombs (1,000lb/2,000lb) were the preferred choice. This allowed even a near miss to destroy the target and anything around it. But together with the accuracy of PGM kits and collateral damage sensitivities, there is a trend to use smaller bombs (225lb & 500lb) for most tasks. Large bombs, especially in the 2,000lb+ category, are the preferred choice for bunker-busting of deep & hardened bunkers.

vina · Post by **vina** » 05 Apr 2012 11:16

But why these dual mode guidance kits from Unkil, unless we get milspec GPS signal from Unkil as well ? Are we getting that along with the package ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Apr 2012 14:13

Second Embraer EMB 145I aircraft for DRDO AEW&C flies

Phuto :

Embraer EMB 145I aircraft for DRDO AEW&C

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2012 14:44

i think we r getting laser guvided only not jdam gps guidance kits

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Apr 2012 21:40

vina wrote:But why these dual mode guidance kits from Unkil, unless we get milspec GPS signal from Unkil as well ? Are we getting that along with the package ?

Dual-mode is required for all-weather capability.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2012 22:24

maybe khan is willing to sell JDAMs and the associated mil-grade GPS signal to anyone, with the catch being only the JDAM seekers can decode it from a black box, while any other navigational instrument in our armed forces cannot.

if we had mil grade GPS signals we would not have needed to pay Rus for access to mil grade GLONASS signal for use by armed forces.
as such all our planes and missiles will use glonass in general for precision navigation.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 726888.ece
A day before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh arrived here last weekend for his annual summit with the Russian leadership, an Indian defence team of scientists and defence brass returned to Delhi after inking an agreement for receiving precision signals from Glonass, Russian constellation of satellites.

These signals will allow missiles, including those fired from nuclear submarine Chakra, to strike within half a metre of distant targets.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Apr 2012 03:50

khans's mil grade gps can be snapped in a second - all algos built in. so want khan grade precision, get close with khan, and obey his orders.

so, technical strategy for implementing this could be:
long term - gagan (high)
mid term - glonass (near high)
short term - gps (low precision)

Now, we can have all three fusions. that would add weight to the system. but we can build some algo like:

arrange for high precision gps,
if we get it without condoms, then use it -

if khan snaps the signals, then switch (context) to using glonass,
and validate coordinates are withing non-mil grade gps - cya to check if glonass is not cheating us

and get to our own gagan asap

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Apr 2012 03:56

vian, Even though its called dual-mode what it means is there is an INS which gets its update form the aircraft and it also has laser seeker. Its not a true JDAM but quasi JDAM as it can get inertial update from host a/c and has the laser for clear weather attack.

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 06 Apr 2012 17:06

not sure if correct thread but got a glimpse in the TOI (New delhi edition) that ACM Fontaine died earlier today...any links or validity in this?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 06 Apr 2012 17:20

^That would be this day last year 06 Apr 2011.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Apr 2012 17:36

TOI is reporting a HAL helicopter has landed on top on apartment complex in Bengaluru.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Apr 2012 17:46

Aditya_V wrote:TOI is reporting a HAL helicopter has landed on top on apartment complex in Bengaluru.

Trainer chopper makes emergency landing on building:
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd trainer chopper makes an emergency landing on top of a building called Maitri Apartments, in Bangalore. Both pilots are safe.

saip · Post by **saip** » 12 Apr 2012 19:40

Dawn has more detailed report than indian papers?

I found the Indian link.

NDTV

vina · Post by **vina** » 13 Apr 2012 11:57

What has happened to the much ballyhooed IJT Sitara . No news about it at all!

varunalh · Post by **varunalh** » 13 Apr 2012 12:48

^^^^

The last news i heard from a chaiwala is that they are setting up the assembly line for IJT in Kanpur.

maz · Post by **maz** » 13 Apr 2012 18:20

for IAF fans in Delhi, please take your cameras and check this out

IAF EXHIBITION AT SELECT CITY WALK, SAKET NEW DELHI

As a part of a continuous initiative to bring the forces closer to those they serve and protect. The IAF has joined hands with SELECT CITY WALK to hold an IAF Exhibition from 13 – 15 Apr 2012 at Select City Walk, Saket, New Delhi for the general public and especially the youth

The exhibition would comprise of :-

(a) ‘Know your IAF’ Recruitment Stall

(b) Screening of IAF Documentaries

(c) Band performance by the Air Warriors Symphony Orchestra (AWSO)

(d) Display by Air Warriors Drill Team between 5 and 6 pm.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 13 Apr 2012 23:20

yay !! Right next to my house.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Apr 2012 02:16

Transport Fleet of the Indian Air Force
By Air Marshal BK Pandey
Issue: Vol. 27.2 Apr-Jun 2012 | Date: 15 April, 2012

...
Indo-Russian MTA Project

The fleet of 100 odd AN32 aircraft with the IAF is currently undergoing mid-life upgrade after which it would be available for another ten to 15 years albeit in progressively dwindling strength. With the intent to have a replacement available in good time, the HAL entered into a joint venture with United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and Rosoboronexport of Russia to co-develop, co-produce a 15 to 20 tonne payload capacity twin-engine military transport aircraft designated as the Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA). This aircraft will meet with the requirements of both the IAF and the Russian Air Force. Indications are that the IAF plans to induct 45 of these machines.

Given its payload capability, like the C130J, the MTA would be capable of both tactical and strategic roles. However, with three to four times the payload capability of the AN32, the MTA is bordering the strategic and hence cannot truly be regarded as a qualitative replacement of the former. Strangely enough, the deal appears to have run into trouble as the proposed business model received from UAC does not seem to have any significant developmental or R&D role for HAL. Participation by HAL is apparently limited to providing its share of funding and licence manufacture. It is not surprising that the Indian government has rejected the proposed business model received from the UAC. While information on further steps in the matter is awaited, this development has undoubtedly introduced a degree of uncertainty in the project. In the event of the MTA project being abandoned, the IAF will have to opt for alternatives in the western markets. HAL would do well to expand its collaborative horizons to include Brazil and South Africa.