Electric vehicle and power storage

[Vayutuvan]

Indian policymaking suffers from a repeated case of focusing on end-stage integration options at the cost of avoiding the details around building a domestic supply chain, and then we turn around and complain about a lack of manufacturing base.

Yes, 100% true. I missed that part. I was thinking that CATL is battery technology. So it is a brand. Not in just manufacturing but even in software products, our Defense Labs want to full solutions, not best of the breed point solutions around which they can build world class simulation software. I am speaking from close to 25 years of experience.

I don't want to state anything in an open forum so take it with whatever it's worth.

I know for sure that our folks have enough science/tech chops to build stuff given the right technical leadership - leadership that believes. Some at the top do have the vision but many at the mid-levels take their jobs as 9-5 make work.

What is missing is self-confidence and "can do" attitude.

[Vayutuvan]

Now if we add battery storage costs to such farms the mask drops and the fudge becomes sludge. That's why most projects don't include such "flywheels".

You just drove a stake into the "green energy dreams" vampire.

[Mort Walker]

RES are good for handling peak loads on the grid. They make great sense to power factories & offices during the day. It reduces the load on fossil fuel based power & nuclear where they can run at reduced capacity. Saves wear & tear on machinery too.

The only long term solution for batteries are solid state technology. Electrolytic batteries are a dead end no matter which chemistry is used.

EVs have an issue with thermal heat management. Only Tesla has gotten this engineering problem solved correctly. The rest of the EVs shouldn’t be touched with a 10 foot pole. Hybrids are the way to go for vehicles for the next 20 years.

[Cyrano]

The problem with hybrids is they need to have 2 propulsion systems and integrate the two. Which Toyota has been doing for many years which Prius. So the tech is there, but it makes the cars expensive and not sure what you gain from an overall environment impact perspective.

Tesla boasted for a while that they have put their tech on open source. I'm sure it excludes battery management software

[Mort Walker]

The problem with hybrids is they need to have 2 propulsion systems and integrate the two. Which Toyota has been doing for many years which Prius. So the tech is there, but it makes the cars expensive and not sure what you gain from an overall environment impact perspective.

Tesla boasted for a while that they have put their tech on open source. I'm sure it excludes battery management software

Tesla didn’t put their thermal management system open source. Their cars are lousy in terms of build quality, but that’s the only choice right now. Tesla is notoriously secret when it comes to their engineering. Toyota, WV group, Mercedes & others are lagging far behind in pure EVs.

Hybrids improve fuel economy considerably by 40-50%. They’re expensive as all other cars, but prices will come down. The 2025 Toyota Camry is the best engineered hybrid in manufacturing right now. It gets over 45 mpg for a full size sedan.

[bala]

Just two things.

thermal heat management for electric lithium batteries: a slight change in current amperage delivered by lithium cells causes fire. Tesla has managed to solve them by having them in small groups and the secret sauce is not in open source literature. The other thing is in cold climates, batteries do poorly so some thermal blanketing is required. Again Tesla has done enough in this area. With sodium such problems go away.

hybrid propulsion: the issue of idling in traffic burns up much fuel. This area is covered by hybrids pretty well. Merc Benz (in GLA 300) and others had a system of auto start/ shutting down most things during idling on regular ICE.
Honda, Toyota, Hyundai and others are into Hybrids, even traditional guys like GM Chevy, Ford and Chrysler are getting into it. Honda accord hybrid is around 50 mpg.

[Mort Walker]

Turning off engine in idle is madness. Starter & solenoid problems aplenty. I bypassed mine with an additional wiring harness.

Toyota is the leader in hybrids.

[Vayutuvan]

Hybrids are the way to go for vehicles for the next 20 years.

Yes. I bought two CR-V Hybrids last year - one 2024 new and a 2020 precertified. I am very happy with both. My driving to nearby big city is ~300 mile round trip with one night stay. None of the EVs I looked at have the range, especially in winter. I wouldn't be able to do much local travel while in the city. Had I gone for Teslas, I would have paid $30K premium and still would have the range anxiety.

Those who are living cities, do not want to own an automobile as they have access to reasonably good public transportation on top of Uber/Lyft for weekend outings.

[Vayutuvan]

Latest Honda all EV Compact SUV is superbly designed but has a range of only 280 miles. It is a lot more expensive than a comparable Hybrid CR-V.

[Amber G.]

Putting a physicists hat - Here's a brief overview of current EV battery technologies and some basics.. (particularly from India's perspective)

Lithium-Ion (Li-ion) Batteries

Cathode: Lithium cobalt oxide (LCO), lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC), or lithium iron phosphate (LFP)
Anode: Graphite
Electrolyte: Lithium salts dissolved in organic solvents
Advantages: High energy density, long cycle life, and well-established manufacturing infrastructure
Disadvantages: Safety concerns (thermal runaway), cobalt dependency, and limited recyclability

Lithium-Iron Phosphate (LFP) Batteries
Cathode: Lithium iron phosphate
Anode: Graphite
Electrolyte: Lithium salts dissolved in organic solvents
Advantages: Improved safety, lower cost, and reduced cobalt dependency
Disadvantages: Lower energy density compared to NMC/LCO

Lithium-Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt-Oxide (NMC) Batteries
Cathode: Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide
Anode: Graphite
Electrolyte: Lithium salts dissolved in organic solvents
Advantages: High energy density, good balance between power and energy, and relatively low cobalt content
Disadvantages: More expensive than LFP, safety concerns, and limited recyclability

Solid-State Batteries (SSBs)
Cathode: Various materials (e.g., lithium metal, lithium cobalt oxide)
Anode: Various materials (e.g., lithium metal, graphite)
Electrolyte: Solid material (e.g., ceramic, glass, or solid polymer)
Advantages: Improved safety, increased energy density, faster charging, and potential for longer cycle life
Disadvantages: Higher cost, technical challenges, and limited commercial availability

Sodium-Ion (Na-ion) Batteries
Cathode: Various materials (e.g., sodium cobalt oxide, sodium iron phosphate)
Anode: Various materials (e.g., graphite, sodium metal)
Electrolyte: Sodium salts dissolved in organic solvents
Advantages: Abundant sodium resources, potentially lower cost, and similar performance to Li-ion
Disadvantages: Lower energy density, limited commercial availability, and ongoing research

Other Emerging Technologies

Lithium-Air (Li-Air) Batteries: Theoretical energy density similar to fossil fuels, but significant technical challenges remain.
Zinc-Air Batteries: Potentially lower cost, improved safety, and higher energy density.
Graphene-Based Batteries: Enhanced conductivity, flexibility, and potential for improved energy density.
These battery technologies are continuously evolving... but hope this is useful information.

[Amber G.]

<snip>

Thanks for the links. It looks like CATL with sodium-ion chemistries are nearing 200 Watt-hours/Kg. To put this in perspective, diesel has an energy density > 12 KWatt-hour/Kg. Even if a diesel engine performing on the lower side of 25% efficiency puts diesel at 3 KWatt-hour/Kg energy density which is > 15 times more energy dense.

Nice point let me add - or add ( repeat an informational post I put in Nuclear dhaga twenty years or so ago)

Energy density is nice thing to understand - especially for out leaders. I coined the term ADL (Asli Desi Ghee) which I have used in physics class, and also in old nuclear threads... a term Dr Shivji liked (:)) . But let me use kWh/KW unit - unit used by MortWalker just to be consistent.

1 ADL is about 10kWh/KW . ..

Anyway another post for reference - hope it is useful.

Here's a comparison of energy density in kWh/kg for different types of batteries, gasoline, I am also including nuclear fuel etc :
(Note these are typical values)

Energy Density Comparison kWh/Kg

Batteries:
Battery Type Energy Density (kWh/kg)
Lead-Acid 0.03-0.05
Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) 0.06-0.12
Lithium-Ion (Li-ion) 0.12-0.24
Lithium-Iron Phosphate (LFP) 0.10-0.20
Sodium-Ion 0.10-0.20
Solid-State Batteries 0.20-0.30
Graphene-Based Batteries 0.30-0.40

Fossil Fuels

Gasoline 12
Diesel 13
Natural gas (methane, CH4) 13
Hydrogen gas or liquid (H2) 26
Coal 6
Alcohol (ethanol) 6


Nuclear Fuels


Uranium-235 (U-235) 24,000,000
Plutonium-239 (Pu-239) 30,000,000

Misc:

Asli Deshi Ghee (clarified butter) ~ 10.0
Chocolate Chip Cookies 5
bullet (at sound speed, 330 per sec) 0.01
TNT (the explosive trinitrotoluene) 0.65
Modern High Explosive (PETN) 1
Chocolate chip cookies 5
Asteroid or meteor (30 km/sec) 100
 
(Interestingly today I was talking to some director (EE Engineer- alum from MIT) and he was quoting some recent figures for one upcoming technology/latest battery type - he used the unit specified .. Watts/liter (for batteries! ) --it seems people user all kind units )

.

[Hriday]

Tesla had demonstrated car battery swapping in less than 2 minutes. That will solve the problems of range anxiety and the cost of battery-powered cars and trucks.
Rent for the battery scheme can be used here.

Reliance also brings swappable batteries for two-wheelers on a large scale. So what we need is now a policy push from govt for swappable batteries for 4-wheelers, isn't it?

[Cyrano]

Design needs to be standardised across brands, battery tech is also evolving. The Govt IMO cannot impose norms at this stage and stifle innovation. This will take a few more years.

The Govt subsidizing EVs is just going into China's pockets as EU dumbocrats have realised. We should avoid such mistakes.

[ernest]

The only long term solution for batteries are solid state technology. Electrolytic batteries are a dead end no matter which chemistry is used.

Can you please share some reading material / videos about this topic? Thanks

[Amber G.]

Sharing some thoughts to address:

Extraction is complex. At present, India does not have large-scale rare earth extraction and processing capabilities. In contrast, China has well-established refining and separation technologies.

From what I know, due to the radioactive content of monazite, strict regulations (under the Atomic Energy Act) are required. This restricts private sector involvement and limits progress to some extent.

It's probably worth going into more detail as to what regulatory, technical and industrial capability it will take to accomplish this. For example, has there at least been surveys of what areas are particularly suited to immediate mining due to their geographical and other benefits ?

Indian monazite reserves have been handwaved about for decades, with comparatively nonexistent effort to establish a mining supply chain, unless I'm mistaken.

The idea here is to understand what are the least effort set of policy, regulatory and industrial actions that can generate a 'farm to fork' infrastructure for Indian battery production, and what scale can it grow into - without being import dependent to the furthest extent possible.

As a physicist/scientist and a teacher, I firmly believe that developing a robust domestic supply chain is crucial. It's essential to recognize that a strong manufacturing base is built on a foundation of strategic planning, investments in R&D, and policy initiatives.

Some Levers and challenges: (IMO)

Levers:

Government incentives: Encouraging public-private partnerships, tax breaks etc.
Investments in R&D: Funding research, technology, etc.
Infrastructure development.
Regulatory frameworks: Streamlining policies etc.

Barriers:

Dependence on imports: (Reducing reliance on foreign components /raw materials)
Limited economies of scale.
Technological gaps.
Financing constraints.

Fortunately, India's institutes, scientists, and government are, IMO, taking positive steps.

Initiatives:

DST's Clean Energy Research Initiative - Funding research projects on clean energy.
DBT's Bioenergy Research Initiative - Supporting research on bioenergy.
MNRE's Energy Storage Research Initiative - Funding research projects on energy storage.
ISRO's Lithium-Ion Battery Technology - Developing indigenous lithium-ion battery technology.
IITs' and NITs' Research Initiatives: - Research on advanced materials, manufacturing technologies, and renewable energy.

(Few things, I know, *very* encouraging come to my mind: -
IISc's Hydrogen Fuel Cell Research,
IIT-Madras' Sodium-Ion Battery initiative,
ISRO's Lithium-Ion Battery Technology
ARCI's Advanced Battery Materials)

Government's Make in India Initiative: Promoting local manufacturing and self-reliance.
PLI Scheme: Offering production-linked incentives for key sectors.

Some notable successes include:

Indigenous development of lithium-ion batteries
Advances in solar energy research
Development of homegrown electric vehicle technologies
Establishment of renewable energy parks..
ityadi ..

On a personal note, I'm trying to contribute my bit by...
- Influencing public leaders and policymakers through informed discussions
- Educating stakeholders on the importance of domestic supply chains ..
- Mentoring students and young professionals in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) fields
- Writing posts in such dhaga (even at the cost of getting trolled

Let's continue this discussion ..

[Amber G.]

The only long term solution for batteries are solid state technology. Electrolytic batteries are a dead end no matter which chemistry is used.

Can you please share some reading material / videos about this topic? Thanks

Some recommendations (review papers):

"Solid-State Batteries: A Review" by S. K. Martha, et al. (IIT Madras, 2020) ( DOI: 10.1002/ente.202000017
"Solid-State Electrolytes for Lithium-Ion Batteries" by A. K. Singh, et al. (IIT Kanpur, 2019) - DOI: 10.1021/acs.chemrev.9b00214
"Solid-State Batteries: Challenges and Opportunities" by P. K. Jain, et al. (IIT Delhi, 2020) - DOI: 10.1038/s41563-020-0353-2
"Solid-State Batteries: A Review" by Jianhua Hao, et al. (2020) - DOI: 10.1002/ente.202000017

Books:
"Solid-State Batteries: Materials, Design, and Optimization" by S. K. Martha (IIT Madras, 2022)
"Lithium-Ion Batteries: Fundamentals and Applications" by A. K. Singh (IIT Kanpur, 2019)
"Energy Storage Devices" by P. K. Jain (IIT Delhi, 2020)
"Solid-State Batteries: Materials, Design, and Optimization" by Inhui Hwang, et al. (2022)
"Lithium-Ion Batteries: Fundamentals and Applications" by Chao-Yang Wang, et al. (2018)

Online Resources:

IIT Madras - Solid-State Battery Research Group
IIT Kanpur - Energy Storage Research Group
IIT Delhi - Centre for Energy Studies
Indian Institute of Science (IISc) - Solid-State Battery Research
Council of Scientific & Industrial Research (CSIR) - Energy Storage Research
Solid-State Battery Research Group at MIT
Solid-State Battery Initiative at Stanford University

Popular articles (google it - online)
"Solid-State Batteries: A Game-Changer for Electric Vehicles" by Forbes
"Solid-State Batteries: A Review of the Current State-of-the-Art" by ScienceDirect

-----
Solid-state battery technology is indeed considered by some as a game-changer..
Advantages: Safety(Thermal runaway prevention), less volatile, higher energy density, faster charging, longer cycle life, less material import for India..

[ernest]

Some recommendations (review papers):

Thanks. Will go through as many as I can.

[Suraj]

Thanks for the detailed conversations so far.

One suggestion I'd like to make it to avoid focusing on technical perfection. That is not the goal of this effort. The goal is to determine what level of available technology can be scaled up to significant economies of production scale driven by policy action at various levels.

As such the intent is not a relentless technical conversation but one where potential immediate industrial policy actions become visible. Long gestation technical research can also happen of course but that is not the focus.

[durairaaj]

TRL - Technology Readiness Level. What I wrote may appear general. This is from my experience as EV developer in India.
1. Too much competition in the research arena: Much of the money is being spent in TRL 0~3 that too only through IITs and national research institutes in topics that will never see light of the day. Many of the proposed research topics are limited by thermodynamic, kinetics and process limitations. People who have authority to choose projects focus on glaring attractive topics and not resolve issues of the industry.

2. Academia-Industry disconnect: In my company 4 ~ 5 institutes come for being an industry partner to recently announced ANRF EV research projects. Before that nobody reached out to us asking if there are any research projects possible.

3. Too much support to early stage startup because decision makers are professors and scientists. There are so many startups between TRL 6 and TRL 8 in the start up valley of death stage. If these companies are supported, the success shall in turn support early stage startups. Instead much of the money is going very early stage research projects in IITs. Half of the money, if given to industry scaling would play a significant enabling role.

China chose EV in 2003 by enabling minimal but healthy competition with focused achievable objectives. They did not straight away jumped to TRL 0~3 projects and hoped for fruition in 20 years. They set objectives 5 years, then 10 years and then 20 years, Each with its own TRL.
We need to spend
60 % money in TRL 7~9 projects.
30% in TRL 4 ~6 projects.
10 % in TRL 0~3 projects.

Need more industrial process people in selecting and supporting TRL 4 ~ 8 projects.
TRL 9~10 needs financial people.

4. Government approach is not enabling: Most government initiatives are not really enabling market forces to find real winners but diverting the industries focus to pick something that is not really effective.
Examples:
Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR): 2% of the income is given to CSR. If this 2% is given as Corporate Research Responsibility (CRR), where the industry can have co-ownership or Right of first refusal, industry would gladly invest in technology development through IIT or research institutes. Instead these CSR funds are being channeled to religious organizations and funding subversive elements against nation. Social responsibility is the responsibility of the government. Corporate should focus on gainfully employing people, building industry and making money in a sustainable way.

Limited funds are being spread thin in unsustainable projects: H2 economy is far-far away. The efficiency of hydrogen transport is abysmal. Thermodynamic efficiency of H2 as energy carrier is poor. Still it is being promoted or forced down the throat by government.

Anti-hybridEV approach: This significantly delayed the electrification of power train of our vehicle fleet. Instead we are importing batteries as well as electric motors.

a. Reach out to industry and ask what are the problems limiting indigenising technology.
b. Help as moderators between Indian industries to collaborate like how Korean, Japanese and Europeans do.
c. Make industrialists feel local players are not competitors. Global companies are the real competitors. Encourage them to support local startups.
d. Every government institute reaching out to collaborate with industry asks for money, as if industry is awash with money.
e. Right approach would be to collaborate first and then seek money from the fruitful outcome.

[ernest]

Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR): 2% of the income is given to CSR. If this 2% is given as Corporate Research Responsibility (CRR), where the industry can have co-ownership or Right of first refusal, industry would gladly invest in technology development through IIT or research institutes. Instead these CSR funds are being channeled to religious organizations and funding subversive elements against nation. Social responsibility is the responsibility of the government. Corporate should focus on gainfully employing people, building industry and making money in a sustainable way.

Was thinking about this. The least we can do is put research under CSR. Govt has already been adding new areas allowed under CST. If we included research, it would be preferable for companies to prioritize it as it has better returns for the company itself. Do not wish to go more OT.

[Vayutuvan]

If this 2% is given as Corporate Research Responsibility (CRR), where the industry can have co-ownership or Right of first refusal, industry would gladly invest in technology development through IIT or research institutes.

@durairaj gaaru, research funding by private companies to the universities here in the US always comes in with no strings attached. Company would have no claim on the IP resulting from research done at a university or non-profit research lab. The IP belongs to the public. The reason you may ask. Research funding is 100% tax deductible. Opportunity cost of those tax deductions are born by the tax paying public at large. Hence corporates cannot put any restrictions. These grants/funding is called unrestricted funding. Corporates have control on to which professor, in which area, and to which university they want to give the funding. After that, the company cannot expect any time bound output from the researchers, leave alone anything that has immediate applications. The IP is owned by the university who can the IP further both for profit or non-profit. If it is for profit, university cannot do it directly. They have to license it a for-profit organization (which is usually formed by the professor and their students) who might get some fillip from the university. The for-profit entity would have to enter into an agreement with the university in which the university gets licensing fee which is put back into the university research funding. Regents of the university administer the funds as per the university advancement - building facilities, new labs, lab equipment, starting research money for newly hired professors and such.

I am almost certain that it is not a good idea to let the companies have the first right to refuse or other ownership rights of the IP. It is anti-competition. Universities have to offer the licensing to anyone who is willing to pay the license fees. The license fee could any amount but no entity/person who is paying taxes in the US can be barred from getting the license as long as they pay the requisite license fee and sign any contract which offers the same terms to every licensee.

(OT here. I don't know where put further information - either "Understanding the US" or "Education")

[ernest]

I am almost certain that it is not a good idea to let the companies have the first right to refuse or other ownership rights of the IP. It is anti-competition. Universities have to offer the licensing to anyone who is willing to pay the license fees. The license fee could any amount but no entity/person who is paying taxes in the US can be barred from getting the license as long as they pay the requisite license fee and sign any contract which offers the same terms to every licensee.

(OT here. I don't know where put further information - either "Understanding the US" or "Education")

Mods, sorry for the OT. Please move to the appropriate thread, which I am not able to zero in.

Thanks for the explanation. Do you think it is feasible to put research grants to universities under CSR (if it is not there already? I searched but did not get relevant results).

There will at least be some way that it will be better option for companies. E.g. electrode material science research done in Indian universities (who will own the IP ) can always benefit the whole EV sector. Any company can license it afterwards. Furthermore, it will have other indirect benefits like talent creation and recruitment that will be good for the companies that sponsor such research. A lot of companies complain about lack of grads with the right skill set. This will go some way into fixing it, while acting like a recruiting ad for companies that do sponsor.

[Vayutuvan]

Thanks for the explanation. Do you think it is feasible to put research grants to universities under CSR (if it is not there already? I searched but did not get relevant results). (1)
...
Furthermore, it will have other indirect benefits like talent creation and recruitment that will be good for the companies that sponsor such research. A lot of companies complain about lack of grads with the right skill set. This will go some way into fixing it, while acting like a recruiting ad for companies that do sponsor. (2)

(1) I am against CSR in principle. It is far too much regulation. In that sense, CRR is also the same. I don't want our baboos pressuring companies to give funding to their sideys and chemchas.

(2) This is 100% correct. That is exactly how the companies in the US get talent.

Please look up the case of LLVM group of Prof. Vikram Adve, UIUC. Previously when Cray was the only one making supercomputers, Seymore Cray funded Prof. Kuck's group. Several of his students joined Cray and designed a couple of Cray computers. IBM/Xerox/M$/AT&T Bell labs/Intel/HPRL all used to fund professors in the CS/EE depts. They give first preference in hiring to those students who graduated from their funded research groups. Students seamlessly move into the research labs. Google/MS do that a lot too now a days. It used to be the case with Sun funding Berkeley, IBM/MS/Intel funding CMU, almost all companies funding MIT, and so on. AMD's founder is from UIUC. AMD funds EECE and CS departments in a very big way.

[ernest]

Yeah. I'd prefer to get rid of CSR altogether. It is one extra roadblock in ease of doing business and growth. Not posting anymore on this.
<End OT>

[sanman]

[sanman]