Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Prem Kumar wrote: I had also noted yesterday that the tree model most likely has a Judeo-Christian theological basis to it. Not that its a disqualification by itself, but its a pointer to why linguists started off with the tree assumption in the first place and resist changing it (due to career reasons or worldview reasons or simply because the alternate hypotheses are too hard)
I am sure this is correct. There appear to have been multiple streams of motivation for "scholars" to relentlessly pursue certain ideas over and above other possible ideas.For a community of Europeans whose history was supposed to have started with the Greeks and Romans, the "discovery" of ancient civilizations of Assyria and Mesopotamia came as a shock that demanded a rewriting of their own past as possibly having been later than or less than a people who were considered inferior by secular and religious opinion of the day.

The "discovery" of Sanskrit was initially a shocker as the one thing that they could hold on to, language, appeared to have alien roots.

Both these issues were rapidly addressed in academia. The Assyrians were a morally degraded people. To top that Sanskrit provided "proof" of an even more glorious race of "Aryans" - northern conquerors who set the remote trend of European domination. The white Aryan theories were well accepted and internalized in Europe. The Germans found the Mitanni texts as proof of how Europe had imposed its hegemony over the Semites as militarily victorious Aryans moved to faraway India to drive away the Dravidians. These theories held sway at a time when our fathers or grandfathers were being educated, until Hitler took it too far and tried to implement the supposed superiority of white Aryans over the descendants of the Semitic races of Assyria and Mesopotamia.

The second word war reset theories of racial superiority but did nothing to a century and a half of "academic" work and theories that had been done by scores of people who saw history as a story of military domination of one race over another. Stories of valour, victory, weaponry and domination had already been written into the accounts of the historic people studied. Concepts of peaceful migration and civilizations that existed sans violent subjugation did not even occur to a century of scholarship who believed that the entire world was a balance of military domination of one over the other, with no space left for trade and culture.

The only history that these scholars knew, Greek history from Greek accounts and later Persian and Assyrian history suggested that the model of conquering killing military represented the past, while civilization and fine arts were a recent phenomenon founded in Europe. Unsurprisingly the Rig Veda has been read as the account of a savage murderous race of people on par with Huns or other hordes, albeit with a monotheistic religious colour attributed to the Rig Veda to fit in with the need to identify with European history.

European academia are not going to rise out of these biases anytime soo. Indians too, brought up to lap up every word that comes out of the west to the extent of using BBC to learn English are not going to reassess anything very soon. But a reassessment needs to be done and a mass movement started to have a complete re-look at all the "academic" work in history, philology and archaeology over the last 150 to 200 years. And this IMO includes taking a detailed look at how accurate and unbiased were the decoding and translations of text like Behistun and Mitanni.

For much of this, translations of old German or other European works will be required. Computers and automatic translating will possibly help in getting access to obscure texts that do not exist outside of their original German or Czech, but have been read and internalized by scholars n European universities who occupy well funded chairs in America in as exemplified by Witzel's quoting of von Soden.

SN_Rajan earlier on this thread took the naive view that he would stick to data and avoid fluff. This attitude appears very noble but is uninformed because of what he does not know and may never know unless one looks at the facts available. European scholars from the 1800s to the 1950s were under political pressure to conform to social, political or religious world views. People who did not do that were often punished, ostracized or criticised. Von Soden himself was under pressure to conform, so the personal lives of academicians had a bearing on their scholarship. If Indian scholars can be accused of bias it is silly to assume even handedness and lack of bias in western scholarship. Indians have to get beyond this starting line sticking point before we can start re examining the humongous volumes of work done so far.

ve haff vork to do..
Last edited by shiv on 13 Sep 2012 06:22, edited 3 times in total.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

RajeshA wrote: Thanks for the clarification. Wouldn't want to ascribe P.V. Vartak's wisdom to someone else!
RajeshA Ji,

Not your fault. I visited his blog and realized that Aman Roychoudhary is less than clear in stating when his original thoughts begin (and end) and when he is quoting others. I am not finding fault with him, but stating what I saw. I am guilty of making similar errors, esepcially with works of those that I have read multiple times and have internalized. To name few.---writings of Vinoba, Joseph Campbell, Karl Popper, Saint Ramadas Swami (spiritual adivisor of King Shivaji), Saint Tukarama, Saint Jnaneshwar, Saint Ekanath and so on.
JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Just have to point about "who is afraid of truth" theme that occurred in last few pages. Those of genuinely seek truth will practice and apply the best discipline (aka science, math and allied subjects that yield to rigor) available. But generally there will be a tremendous gap between those who truly practice versus who use that as rhetoric to bolster claims about truth rather than actually seeking it. It is like,the age old wisdom on BR of Federal Republic Germany versus Democratic Republic of Germany, no prizes for guessing who was more democratic.
Here is an article written in 2002 and still very relevant today... (The fear of engineering)
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/02rajeev.htm
In any case, it is pretty clear that some people have a rather poor opinion of either pure or applied scientists. And in particular, a bone to pick with engineers. This of course is a gauntlet waiting to be picked up; and there have been some retorts. P V Indiresan, former director of IIT Madras, responded with an article. And of course, there is always the old Samuel C Florman classic, The Existential Pleasures of Engineering, to fall back upon.

Why this disdain for the T-square brigade? The Indiresan article suggests that it is pretty safe to abuse engineers, because they are generally inarticulate and tongue-tied, diffident, and poor communicators. They do not react, nor do they get much media airtime or column inches. Quite. But then a few upstart engineers are spoiling the whole thing by speaking up, rationally and logically. They are beginning to upset the cozy apple carts set up by humanities types, especially those from the Jawaharlal Nehru University cabal. Said JNU-bots are appalled. Naturally. I mean, how dare these engineers...?

These JNU people have, ever since the BJP came to power, been on the defensive. Their comfortable sinecures as court historians and hagiographers have come under a microscope. They had for fifty years labored mightily, and successfully, with a few simple agendas:
The glorification of the Nehru dynasty
The downplaying of Indian history, Sanskrit, and anything else native
The myth-making about some imaginary composite culture based largely on imported ideas

[b]A prime example, of course, is the Aryan Invasion Fairy Tale. It suits the humanities types (and their many sponsors and financiers overseas) to keep drilling into the minds of impressionable Indian children and youth the idea that there is nothing of value that is wholly Indian, and that India is entirely a second-rate, imitative, culture. Which I suppose creates a better market for Euro/American and Chinese goods and ideas. And keeps India forever servile and backward.[/b]

It bothers the JNU types that many of those challenging both their cherished shibboleths and their neo-colonialist processes are engineers and computer scientists. For example, N S Rajaram, Subhash Kak, Rajiv Malhotra. That many are Non Resident Indians adds fuel to the fire. There have been quite a few articles from for example, the formidable Anita Pratap, simply bashing NRIs as though they were collectively some kind of troglodytes. Appalling, an NRI engineer, my god, how awful that these people dare challenge the obvious superior wisdom of us flat-earth, 'creationist' humanities types!

I am again reminded of Galileo Galilei and his encounters with the Vatican. Some people just can't take new ideas lying down: like the Vatican which finally recognized that the earth revolves around the sun 300
JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by JwalaMukhi »

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... nheritance
“If Indian education and scholarship continue along their current trajectory ,” writes Sheldon Pollock, the brilliant professor of Sanskrit at Columbia University, “the number of citizens capable of reading and understanding the texts and documents of the classical era will very soon approach a statistical zero. India is about to become the only major world culture whose literary patrimony, and indeed history, are in the hands of scholars outside the country.”

This is extraordinary in a country with dozens of Sanskrit departments in all major Indian universities, along with network of maths, pathshalas , and vidyapeeths. The ugly truth is that the quality of teaching in these institutions is so poor that not a single graduate is able to think seriously about the past and critically examine ancient texts. They are parrots who can only repeat words without converting them into true knowledge . Politically motivated appointments have also ruined the few centres of excellence that once existed at Pune University, Deccan College, and the. Fifty years ago, India had great scholars like P V Kane, V S Sukhthankar , S N Dasgupta, S Radhakrishnan and many more. The tradition of pandit learning is also disappearing. Where is India’s soft power when there are fewer and fewer Indians capable of interrogating the texts of Kalidasa or the edicts of Ashoka?
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Satya_anveshi »

This is an excellent speech about Mahabharat. Do read thru this as it contains some references to stories that may have been lifted out of MB and introduced into other theologies. Short and quite gripping till the end.

Valedictory Address - Dr. P. Lal
Text of the taped extempore valedictory address by Prof. P. Lal at the international seminar on the Mahabharata organized by the Sahitya Akademi, Delhi, February 17-20, 1987. Published in The Mahabharata Revisited, edited by R.N. Dandekar, Sahitya Akademi, New Delhi (1990).
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

shiv wrote:
Sir, I do not want to sound obsequious, but the work you have done is nothing less than tremendous. Thank you, and keep it up.

I was wondering if a kind of Power point file could be made with images of a dark sky and stars as observed during the Mahabharata - or even an animation.
One of the BRFites has graciously agreed to make a Power point file. He is currently reading the book.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13749
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Vayutuvan »

Prem Kumar wrote:(due to career reasons or worldview reasons or simply because the alternate hypotheses are too hard)
Just like you, I also found ManishH ji's explanation of verb roots to be quite nice. But what rankles me is the dogmatic insistence that the AIT is a rigorously proved theory and there is no place for alternate theories - no matter whether they are easy or hard - that might explain the current state of affairs as well, if not better.
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Arjun »

Konrad Elst has consistently put forward some of the most cogent arguments rebutting AIT - though he is a big believer in PIE and linguistics. I tend to largely agree with most of his arguments.

I would recommend the following article highly for those interested in the key linguistic arguments, many of which strongly favour the OIT Hypothesis: Linguistic Aspects of the Indo-European Urheimat Question
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Arjun wrote:Konrad Elst has consistently put forward some of the most cogent arguments rebutting AIT - though he is a big believer in PIE and linguistics.
If fact his arguments are carefully worded to avoid the "Hindu right winger" argument. He uses all the "accepted terminology" like "Indo-Aryan" etc.

The idea of linguistic change cannot be rejected by anyone. Giving that change a particular chronological direction based on a few examples is my issue. Elst of course makes this point well.

Kentum becoming Shata is an alleged example of palatalization. Herpes becoming Sarpa and Kardia becoming Hrudaya ned to be explained as well. Palatalization occurs in the specific context of a slightly "back of mouth" consonant such as K or D being preceded or followed by a front of mouth vowel. "Did ya" becoming "Didja" is a Wiki example.

I think it was Satya-Anveshi who pointed out a curious observation about the "pre existing state of language"

In Europe T's and D's are soft and from childhood people are taught to pronounce T and D with the tip of the tongue just behind the teeth. We Indians are "retroflexers" and we pronounce a hard T or D by putting ot tongues further back in the mouth when we say it.

When you pronounce the consonant K, the top of your tongue momentarily seals off air from your throat and stops it from coming out. If you press very lightly on the top of your mouth and create a light seal and then allow the air to come out with a hiss you get a European (English) soft K - a kiss. If you press hard and release suddenly you get an explosive Indian "k" - KKiss" . If you press hard and release with a hiss, you get hard "kha" as in "Khan". If it so happens that if you pronounce you K by pressing with the tongue right at the back of your throat you get an Arabic/Urdu "Q". "qaum, qazi etc. From this position of tongue you can only get a guttaral "quaa" sound and not a proper "kha" ket alone a soft kiss "k" of Europe.

The chances of palatalaization D, T or K --> S are greater in Europe because of the way the tongue starts off. I need to look at that palatalization ref by Rao or someone but I see very few Indians making the same palatalization sounds that comes from native English speakers and I have been digging through dictionaries of ancient Greek and Sanskrit to see is there are any other examples. One or two words cannot constitute a rule. In fact Injuns for Indians is an example of palatalization. Where do you see desis doing that?

One possibility in my opinion is a a Proto word for hundred that might be "kshata". That easily explains K and S
Last edited by shiv on 13 Sep 2012 10:27, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

I think S.S. Misra has offered some good theories on linguistics. I mentioned it here.

Linguists claim that the IE k becomes ś in Sanskrit, but Misra claims that in Sanskrit itself at places ś itself becomes k before becoming ṣ! So the change must have been in the other direction ś > k!

Perhaps you may like to follow this up, to show the k > s change in the other direction!
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Arjun »

There are broadly three different approaches to rebutting the AIT case - & all three need to be pursued in parallel, by independent sets of researchers to their respective logical conclusions:

1- Comparative Linguistics is largely a pseudo-science, & PIE a concoction that has no legitimacy in AIT arguments... This is broadly the NS Rajaram argument (& that of many on this thread).

2- There is validity to comparative linguistics and reconstruction of PIE, but the conclusion that Vedic Sanskrit cannot be the parent of the rest of IE family is faulty reasoning. This is the SS Misra position - & he's written up some very powerful arguments that need to be taken forward by others.

3 - Even if comparative linguistics, PIE & uni-directional / chronological direction of sound change are ALL assumed to be true - that STILL does not provide any evidence at all of AIT, and rather makes the OIT case stronger in many ways. This is the tack taken by Koenrad Elst and Talegeri.

Problem is that after the stalwarts mentioned above (all names from the 90s) - no new crop of researchers seems to have emerged to build on the work of these gentlemen over the last decade. I am specifically referring to the areas of linguistics, philology & broad OIT framework. Research in other areas has been very rich of late though (archeo-astronomy, geology, archeogenetics etc)
ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

A_Gupta wrote:ManishH,

Still patiently waiting for an answer - the Paul Thieme article argues that the presence of Varuna and dual Nasatyas in the Mitanni treaty makes it Vedic or post-Vedic. This contradicts the phonetic argument. What is your response to that?
Since you have not given the exact reference to the said article, I'm assuming it is "The 'Aryan' Gods of the Mitanni Treaties" Thieme 1960.

In this article, Thieme clearly says that Mitanni treaty does not preserve the distinction betweenand nom. dual (nāsatyā) and nom plural (nāsatyāḥ) ...
... in-da-ra is Indraḥ, nom. sing.; na-sa-at-ti-ia is Nāsatyā, nom. dual - the distinction of dual and plural which must be expressed in Aryan, being neglected ...
The script doesn't preserve the contrast between long 'ā' and short 'a' very well. So, Thieme himself writes that it's not clearcut if Mitanni used the dual or the plural. When the dual itself is not crystal-clear, how can Thieme have used the presence of dual to make it post-Vedic.

Maybe you can illustrate your argument by quoting exact words from the Thieme article. I'll try to follow your reasoning.
ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

B-ji: apologies if I missed your question earlier and thanks for repeating it. Trying to do best with limited time ...
brihaspati wrote:
(1) if sound change laws are so detrministic and unidirectional - why could there be original/beginning words in exactly opposite direction to that what would be expected by your sound-change laws? if this is such a universal human tendency, then such contrary-to-human-tendency words could not have originated.
If you can illustrate your point with an example of what proto-word is contrary to human tendency, I'd understand your argument better. Are you for example saying that a labiovelar proto-sound is contrary to human tendency ? If yes, I don't think it is.
(2) the mirculous and exceptional "rhotacization" of RV onlee : PIE supposedly uses "l" in keklos/cycle/ from which RV changes to "R" becuase of its tendency to "rhotacization" and this is not a Steppenwolf/European tendency but closer to India tendency, in a group that moved from Steppes - and then drops rhotacization again, to give rise to "lhotacization" in subsequent successor dialects in India. If L-R-L is possible - why assume onlee from Steppe-L to Indian L? Why not the other way around?
While the mainstream Linguistic community opinion is that L and R are dialects that existed together. I have a different opinion ...

The temporal data is in the relative order of Indian texts. The Indian lhota texts (Mahābhārata) clearly follow the Indian rhota texts (Ṛgveda). Then the fact that Vedic rhota > Classical lhota was an independent development from PIE lhota > Vedic rhota is also illustrated by this example:

#1 Hair: Irish 'ruaimneach' and Vedic Skt 'roman' but Classical Skt 'loman'.
#2 Extend: Irish 'lethaid' and Vedic Skt 'prathati' also Classical Skt 'prathathi'

If indeed the original L was from Sanskrit branch, one would expect some dialect of Sanskrit to have carried the hypothetical 'plathati'. Therefore, I think the original PIE had some L sounds which became Vedic R sounds. Later, some R sounds became L. These were two independent developments.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13531
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

ManishH wrote:
Maybe you can illustrate your argument by quoting exact words from the Thieme article. I'll try to follow your reasoning.
You can read the arguments in detail for yourself, I believe; for your convenience the paper is here:
http://flh.tmu.ac.ir/hoseini/arya/articles-1/27.pdf

I start with the conclusion:

"5. It is now possible to gather up the results of our investigation into a reply to our questions: Do Mitra, Varuna, Indra and the two Nasatyas protect treaties in the RV? and: Is it likely or provable that they did so in Proto-Aryan times? (above p. 306)

To the first question, a strictly factual article can be given: all the named gods indeed are said to protect treaties in the RV, even the two Nasatyas, though these only occasionally.

The second one cannot be answered with any confidence, since we have no primary sources of Proto-Aryan religion {nor do we have any primary sources of proto-Aryan language} and must rely upon the resources of techniques of reconstruction. I hope my discussions have made it clear, what ought to have been clear before: we cannot reconstruct Proto-Aryan religious terms -- and much less Proto-Aryan religious ideas - by simply and naively projecting Rigvedic data into Proto-Aryan times. A reconstruction can be attempted only by a careful confrontation of Vedic and Avestan terminology.

Such confrontation yields the result that but one name in the Mitanni list can be postulated safely as that of a Proto-Aryan god whose function it was to protect treaties - *Mitra m. 'Contract, Treaty'.

All the other items of the list are doubtful with respect either to form of the name or to the functions of the god in Proto-Aryan times. It is highly questionable whether a Proto-Aryan god *Varuna is to be postulated; it cannot be proved that a dual *Nasatya 'the two Nasatyas' was formed.
Section 4.3 deals with the argument re: Varuna, and begins: "I well realize that there would be no doubt as to the existence of a Proto-Aryan god *Varuna if a majority vote could settle such a question......Assuming the existence of a Proto-Aryan divine name *Varuna, we would have to explain why its linguistic equivalent does not appear in the Avesta....." (read it for yourself)

Section 4.4 points out that Indra appears in the gods of the vanquished party, gives a whole series of RV references to Indra as the protector of treaties and contracts, and section 4.5 gives the problem of that the proto-Aryan *Indra cannot have had that function.

Section 4.6 deals with the single/dual Nasatya and their functions.

Section 2 deals with the (Mitanni) "dingir-mes na-sa-at-ti-ia-an-na"
(2.2 tell us dingir-mes is "gods", plural.
2.3 tells us the -na in na-sa-at-it-ia-an-na is the plural form).
Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4133
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Neela »

shiv wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote: I had also noted yesterday that the tree model most likely has a Judeo-Christian theological basis to it. Not that its a disqualification by itself, but its a pointer to why linguists started off with the tree assumption in the first place and resist changing it (due to career reasons or worldview reasons or simply because the alternate hypotheses are too hard)
I am sure this is correct. There appear to have been multiple streams of motivation for "scholars" to relentlessly pursue certain ideas over and above other possible ideas.For a community of Europeans whose history was supposed to have started with the Greeks and Romans, the "discovery" of ancient civilizations of Assyria and Mesopotamia came as a shock that demanded a rewriting of their own past as possibly having been later than or less than a people who were considered inferior by secular and religious opinion of the day.

The "discovery" of Sanskrit was initially a shocker as the one thing that they could hold on to, language, appeared to have alien roots.

Both these issues were rapidly addressed in academia. The Assyrians were a morally degraded people. To top that Sanskrit provided "proof" of an even more glorious race of "Aryans" - northern conquerors who set the remote trend of European domination. The white Aryan theories were well accepted and internalized in Europe. The Germans found the Mitanni texts as proof of how Europe had imposed its hegemony over the Semites as militarily victorious Aryans moved to faraway India to drive away the Dravidians. These theories held sway at a time when our fathers or grandfathers were being educated, until Hitler took it too far and tried to implement the supposed superiority of white Aryans over the descendants of the Semitic races of Assyria and Mesopotamia.

The second word war reset theories of racial superiority but did nothing to a century and a half of "academic" work and theories that had been done by scores of people who saw history as a story of military domination of one race over another. Stories of valour, victory, weaponry and domination had already been written into the accounts of the historic people studied. Concepts of peaceful migration and civilizations that existed sans violent subjugation did not even occur to a century of scholarship who believed that the entire world was a balance of military domination of one over the other, with no space left for trade and culture.

The only history that these scholars knew, Greek history from Greek accounts and later Persian and Assyrian history suggested that the model of conquering killing military represented the past, while civilization and fine arts were a recent phenomenon founded in Europe. Unsurprisingly the Rig Veda has been read as the account of a savage murderous race of people on par with Huns or other hordes, albeit with a monotheistic religious colour attributed to the Rig Veda to fit in with the need to identify with European history.

European academia are not going to rise out of these biases anytime soo. Indians too, brought up to lap up every word that comes out of the west to the extent of using BBC to learn English are not going to reassess anything very soon. But a reassessment needs to be done and a mass movement started to have a complete re-look at all the "academic" work in history, philology and archaeology over the last 150 to 200 years. And this IMO includes taking a detailed look at how accurate and unbiased were the decoding and translations of text like Behistun and Mitanni.

For much of this, translations of old German or other European works will be required. Computers and automatic translating will possibly help in getting access to obscure texts that do not exist outside of their original German or Czech, but have been read and internalized by scholars n European universities who occupy well funded chairs in America in as exemplified by Witzel's quoting of von Soden.

SN_Rajan earlier on this thread took the naive view that he would stick to data and avoid fluff. This attitude appears very noble but is uninformed because of what he does not know and may never know unless one looks at the facts available. European scholars from the 1800s to the 1950s were under political pressure to conform to social, political or religious world views. People who did not do that were often punished, ostracized or criticised. Von Soden himself was under pressure to conform, so the personal lives of academicians had a bearing on their scholarship. If Indian scholars can be accused of bias it is silly to assume even handedness and lack of bias in western scholarship. Indians have to get beyond this starting line sticking point before we can start re examining the humongous volumes of work done so far.

ve haff vork to do..
Shiv, a long time ago Rudradev wrote this. I got reminded of that post after reading yours.
India had managed to influence the West in the early modern age while still under the British jackboot. Now suppose she gained what the Capitalists and Communists alike understood to be *real* power... material power?

It has never been a secret to any sincere student of History that Dharmic civilization has been the pre-eminent cultural foundation of Asia, its influence immediately perceptible from Tibet to Indonesia to the Philippines and Japan, and historically discernible in regions of West and Central Asia despite the best efforts of Islamic marauders to scour it away.

The real secret that the West has been keeping from us is the degree to which Dharmic civilization had influenced a great diversity of spiritual, philosophical, social and even political institutions in the West itself... from the Theosophical Society of Blavatsky and Annie Besant to the National Socialist Workers' Party of Adolf Hitler. Western "right" and "left", Anglo-American and Slav alike have no greater fear than that this will happen again; and that this time, there will be a Civilization-State with real temporal power seizing the helm of her destiny.

The Third School still has its adherents today... such intellectuals as Koenraad Elst, Francois Gaultier and David Frawley continue the tradition, though they are little known outside their circles of scholarship. If the Third School ever re-asserts itself in the West, it will be thanks to the tireless and dedicated efforts of men and women such as these, who carried the torch through the decades of obscurity.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13531
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

ManishH wrote:
Since you have not given the exact reference to the said article, I'm assuming it is "The 'Aryan' Gods of the Mitanni Treaties" Thieme 1960.

In this article, Thieme clearly says that Mitanni treaty does not preserve the distinction betweenand nom. dual (nāsatyā) and nom plural (nāsatyāḥ) ...
... in-da-ra is Indraḥ, nom. sing.; na-sa-at-ti-ia is Nāsatyā, nom. dual - the distinction of dual and plural which must be expressed in Aryan, being neglected ...
The script doesn't preserve the contrast between long 'ā' and short 'a' very well. So, Thieme himself writes that it's not clearcut if Mitanni used the dual or the plural. When the dual itself is not crystal-clear, how can Thieme have used the presence of dual to make it post-Vedic.
To address this one point - Thieme is saying that the Nasatyas in the Mitanni treaty is plural (Nasatianna, the ending -na being Hurrian plural) and that just as in English we would say "the Nasatyas" instead of "the two Nasatyas" that is what is done in the Hurrian, not distinguishing the dual from the plural.

The key point is that Nasatianna is plural.

The next point is that the Avesta only has a singular Nasatya (cognate) while the Rig Veda has both one and two(plural). E.g., Thieme writes "a single Nasatya is known to the RV also (4.3.6 ), and moreover, the RV once forms a dual dvandva Indra-Nasatya (8.26.8 ) which can only mean "Indra and the [one] Nasatya." Konow's statement: 'The existing state of things makes it necessary to infer that the dual designation Nasatyau is of Indian growth' seems to me to stand unimpaired.

Therefore the Mitanni treaty referring to plural Nasatyas is referring to some of Indian growth and since the single Nasatya to dual Nasatya transition occurs in the Rig Veda, the Mitanni treaty is at best contemporary with the Rig Vedic development or else is post-Vedic. (Unless you want to postulate yet another unknown branch of language and culture where the identical developments took place. But in that case, even your phonetic arguments do not work to set a date for the Rig Veda).
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

The most severe traumas that the Aryan Invasion Theory has committed, is on the Tamils, and several political parties in Tamil Nadu have instrumentalized this trauma and made political hay!

Aravindan Neelakandan is one Tamil who has tried to ameliorate the effects of this civilizational scale fraud by speaking out against AIT/AMT. He coauthored "Breaking India" with Shri Rajiv Malhotra.

Here is one of his presentations in Tamil on scribd.

Aryan Invasion : Truth

Please use it as educational material where ever needed. Just as some misguided North Indians have latched on to the AIT to boost their low self-esteem, similarly in Tamil Nadu have taken AIT to heart considering this imaginary event to be a real violent violation of their identity and pride.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Folks I have been trying to figure our laryngeal theory and the community of linguists as expected do not have a single open access sound file to illustrate a sound. Maybe because it's a non existent sound? :rotfl:

However I found an easy to understand criticism of laryngeal theory which I post here for reference, while I figure out what part of the larynx causes this orgiastic fervor among linguists

You may think it is gobbledygook, but its clearerthat Larnygeal theory in Wiki :P

http://languagecontinuity.blogspot.in/2 ... f-pie.html
7 April 2010
Witold Manczak: criticism of PIE laryngeals
It is true that the Laryngeal Theory of Proto-Indo-European is widely accepted nowadays, but with different degrees of 'faith'. Many IE linguists have expressed their doubts about some aspects of the theory and in many cases (notably Oswald Szemerényi) only accepted a weak version, with just one laryngeal sound.
<snip>
Does it make sense to invent a whole set of imaginary phonemes just for the sake of reconstruction? Is it justified? There are some linguists who have noticed some of the important inconsistencies in PIE Laryngeal Theory, and in some cases are completely against it. It's not easy to find their articles, as they are generally ignored by the IE linguistics establishment. And don't try to find much about them in Wikipedia or other Internet sources, they are just neglected. One of these authors is the eminent Polish linguist Witold Manczak, who has written a series of articles with strong criticism, actually a refutation, of the Laryngeal Theory
<snip>
As we can see in the initial remarks, the author is quite aware of the difficulties of trying to raise a critical voice in IE studies (p. 25): "Nos articles ayant passés sous silence, il nous est venu à l'esprit de présenter nos arguments dans une revue beaucoup plus connu :D Even fellow linguits have their asses examined by the Nazis! Talk about cunningballism!
<snip>
An note the following quote at the end:
In the final part of the article, Manczak asks himself why it is that the Laryngeal Theory has been so successful among linguists. According to him, there is a general lack of validity criteria in historical linguistics. (p. 31): "le terme "critères de verité" n'est jamais employé par les linguistes, bien que les linguistes soient unanimes pour dire que la linguistique est une science". The important thing is the 'authority' behind the theory, not the validity of the theory itself. (p. 32): "Comme les linguistes croient en l'infaillibilité des autorités, ils détestent ceux qui osent critiquer les autorités et adorent ceux qui approuvent ou développent les idées des autorités".
Folks I suspect we are on a winning wicket here... 8)

..now on to laryngeal theory
ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

shiv wrote:In an earlier conversation ManishH claimed that the process of palataliztion led to the conversion of Greek equus to ashwa and Greek kleos to sravas in Sanskrit.
Again you are putting a wrong claim into my mouth. I have said that PIE (not Greek) velars underwent palatalization in presence of front vowels. Not every Greek velar comes from a PIE velar.
The words below are listed in the order Greek, Sanskrit and English translation
  • keiro khar cut
    keleuma hladate shout
    kentron kantaka sting
    keramikos kumbhakar potter
    kinnamomon daruchini cinnamon
    kineo chalati,sarati move
    klado klandati weep
    kleis kuchika key
    kleos khyati (not sravas in the dictionary I consulted)
    knetho kanduyana itch
- There is no 'khar' in sanskrit.
- The two aren't exactly cognates. Greek keleuma comes from PIE *kelh₁. Sanskrit hlādate comes from PIE verb root *ghel and it's determinative *ghlehdho
- Sanskrit kantaka is not the cognate of Greek kentron. The Skt cognate is kendra. It is known to be a late borrowing because RV doesn't even have 'kendra'.
- Grk Keramikos is not the cognate of Skt kumbha. It is Greek kumbo. And no front vowel here to palatalize the Skt cognate
- kinnamon and daruchini are not even phonetic cognates.
- kineo and chalati are again not cognates. Greek 'pel' is the cognate of Sanskrit 'calati'. The PIE original is the labiovelar kʷel. The front vowel palatalizes the sanskrit cognate
- Greek has kleio, not klado.
- kleis and kūcika are not cognates. There is no phonetic reason for 'l' do disappear and be replaced by 'c'.
- kleos and khyāti are not cognates. śravas is the correct cognate which comes from verbroot 'śru' (greek klu), to hear. Sanskrit 'khyāti' comes from verb root 'khyā' (to tell).
- Greek knetho comes from Greek root knao. Skt kaṇḍūyāṇa comes from verb root kaṇḍū and again totally phonetically unrelated to the greek root. No explanation or regularity in how 'ḍ' has vanished in Greek.
[/quote]
shiv wrote: Incidentally "hladate" like hrudaya is a case of Sanskrit "ha" becoming Greek "ka" - something that I have termed as posterior palatalization
This is a special case theory that'll violate a host of Greek/Sanskrit cognates. Just to give one example, it cannot explain how Sanskrit 'hanti' becomes Greek 'theinos' and not 'keinos' as your proposed sound change would have it.
I have alerady said how Sanskrit "ha" turns up as Greek or Latin "ka" or "ga" in "kardio" and "lingua". Look at the Sanskrit word "Ahvayati", meaning to "call. to summon, or to proclaim, to invoke'. There is a Greek cognate "ekklesia"
Greek ekklesia comes from Greek ek (out) + verb root kaleo which comes from PIE *kelh₁. It's totally unrelated to havyāmi - no explanation, nor regularity for how Sanskrit phoneme -vya- vanishes and greek 'le' comes in.

Greek 'kardio' comes from PIE *kṛd. There is no front vowel in the zero-grade PIE form so no palatalization occurred in Sanskrit hṛdaya. Whereas the PIE ablaut *kred-dheh₁ has the front vowel that led to palatalization in Sanskrit śraddhā.

Basically, you cannot take just Greek and Sanskrit evidence for arriving at the most likely sound in ancestor language. You have to take the cumulative evidence from all of PIE family.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

ManishH wrote:Basically, you cannot take just Greek and Sanskrit evidence for arriving at the most likely sound in ancestor language. You have to take the cumulative evidence from all of PIE family.
and then you have to apply some element of chaotic change/progression as a discounting factor rather than a straight linear change sequence

but that element of chaos also introduces uncertainty about direction, time, origin, etc., which IMHO makes predictability much more difficult

lingustics i think is therefore less able to predict history than represent what is known by other means
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Books for the Library
shiv wrote:Folks I suspect we are on a winning wicket here... 8)

..now on to laryngeal theory
Image

Publication Date: 1977
Author: Satya Swarup Misra
The laryngeal theory: a critical evaluation

SS Misra has definitely written about it, but I can't really find any online version of the book! Misra ji really should put this book online! I also don't know how to contact the gentleman!
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

The AIT-Sepoy Paranoia

Published on Aug 20, 2012 (BANGALORE)
By Bageshree S.
Class V textbook collapses Indus and Aryan time periods: The Hindu

“The plain of the river Indus (Sindhu) was a fertile land. Civilised life took shape there nearly 5,000 years ago. This is called Sindhu civilisation,” states the lesson titled ‘Our Ancient Cities’ of Class V, published by the Karnataka Textbook Society.

The next lesson titled ‘India of Vedic Times’ states: “Aryans were those people who had lived before five thousand years in the plains of the rivers Sindhu and Saraswathi.”

The Class V Social Science textbook, introduced this year, on the one hand, divides the Indus and Vedic periods into separate chapters. On the other hand, it suggests through these statements that they co-existed in the same period and in the same space.

Elsewhere in the lesson it is stated, in vague terms, that the “close relationship of Sindhu civilisation and Vedic civilisation could be clear” when presence of sacrificial fire-pits at Sindhu city sites are considered, without elaborating further.

Expert committee

Class V and VIII History syllabus had stirred up a hornet’s nest last year while it was being framed since it had elements perceived as an attempt at giving a “saffron” tint to the text by the BJP government. An expert committee was appointed to look into these objections and some changes made relating to the glaring omissions and commissions.

However, the collapsing of time and space of the Indus and Aryan periods of history had then not been pointed out.

Interestingly, in 2002, during the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) regime at the Centre, an NCERT textbook titled ‘India and the World’ created a controversy for attempts to suggest that the Vedic and Harappan civilisations were the same in the chapter titled ‘Indian Civilisation-Harappan Civilisation’. This was opposed by several historians who saw it as a right-wing effort to establish Aryans as natives.

‘Desperate attempts’

Eminent historian Romila Thapar — who disputed the “Aryan invasion” theory, but argued that Aryans arrived in India from the Indo-Iranian border through a gradual migration — stated in an article in the journal Seminar in 2003: “Desperate attempts are being made to prove that the Vedic people and the Harappans were identical.”

Prof. Thapar said that “they [Aryans] are now being equated with the authors of the Indus civilisation, even though the Indus civilisation was pre-Aryan.” She says that “it was a mercantile culture focusing on many cities and artisanal production and trade, whereas the Vedic corpus depicts a cattle-keeping society unfamiliar with urban culture. The Vedic corpus is rich in its depiction of an agro-pastoral culture, but this is in no way the same as the urban sophistication of the Indus cities.”

_______________________________

It seems Karnataka is taking the lead in updating of their textbooks! All power to them!

These AIT-Sepoys and Establishment Historians need to be shown the retirement door!
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Author: Dr. N.S. Rajaram
Aryan Invasion - History or Politics [@scribd]
Speaking of the Aryan invasion theory, it would probably be an oversimplification to say: "Germans invented it, British used it," but not by much. The concept of the Aryans as a race and the associated idea of the 'Aryan nation' were very much a part of the ideology of German nationalism. For reasons known only to them, Indian educational authorities have continued to propagate this obsolete fiction that degrades and divides her people. They have allowed their political biases and career interests to take precedence over the education of children. They continue to propagate a version that has no scientific basis.
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

According to him, there is a general lack of validity criteria in historical linguistics. (p. 31): "le terme "critères de verité" n'est jamais employé par les linguistes, bien que les linguistes soient unanimes pour dire que la linguistique est une science". The important thing is the 'authority' behind the theory, not the validity of the theory itself
That reminds me of the comparison I made between linguistic and CFD validation couple of days back:
So when a guy writes a CFD code, he first validates his results with known solutions and compares his solution with the well known solutions which have analytical closed form solutions or has experimental data. This is true for simple problems which he can readily verify. But this validation business gets tough when he has to validate his results with complex problems like say combustion. So he just goes with a hunch here that since his code produces results for some simple problems which he has validated, his solution to complex problem must be 'close' to the actual result. But doesn't mean this is proof enough to say his 'solution construction' for the complex problem is correct. It is just a conjecture that his solution could be true
But I find it strange that phonetically reconstructed words when are validated with with some sounds of a newly discovered languages are take for granted that what is theorized about phonetics is 100% correct. Is this reconstruction true for every other language discovered and yet to be discovered? just because it is true for couple of cases doesn't necessarily mean it is true in every case and that phonetic sound change law has no exceptions.
Last edited by member_22872 on 13 Sep 2012 17:51, edited 2 times in total.
KLP Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 1310
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by KLP Dubey »

shiv wrote:
Arjun wrote:In Europe T's and D's are soft and from childhood people are taught to pronounce T and D with the tip of the tongue just behind the teeth. We Indians are "retroflexers" and we pronounce a hard T or D by putting ot tongues further back in the mouth when we say it.
We need to be more categorical in order to avoid a long series of pointless argumentation.

(1) The oldest phonetic works are the pratishakhyas. That should end the question of antiquity once and for all. All the PIE nonsense is based upon non-existent testimony/records. It is all a fantasy of some morons trying to "mind-read" what was going on 5000 years ago, based upon no real evidence at all. On the other hand the documented evidence of the pratishakhyas is real, material, and tangible evidence and seals the matter once and for all. Before any PIE speculations, these people need to first come up with a real phonetic text that predates the pratishakhya.

(2) For example in the case of T and D, the pratishakhya clearly distinguishes between the cerebrals (hard T and D), and the dentals (soft t and d) which are to be produced at the root of the teeth. This definition is carried through all the way to classical Sanskrit.

(3) The ONLY conclusion supported by reason and logic is that the European pronunciation of "T and D" is a speech defect with respect to the pratishakhya. It is neither truly cerebral or dental, but is some half-hearted effort to produce a cerebral.

(4) In short, I should like to see a written work with a systematic explanation of all sound changes listed as defective pronunciations from the pratishakhya. This is a consistent and rational approach which should be acceptable to any scientifically-oriented individual. It would be admissible in a court of law for that matter. The rest (PIE etc) is sheer nonsense not supported by any real evidence. The people who make such speculations, if tested in a court of law (which operates under the principle of documented/material testimony), would likely be remanded to mental institutions.

Namaskar,

KL
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Can one take the AIT to Supreme Court in India and make the establishment historians naked there?
ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

Prem Kumar wrote: When we talk about a PIE tree (or any reconstruction for that matter), the one thing I am skeptical about is the Neogrammarian dictum of "sound laws have no exceptions." As I pointed out in yesterday's Wikipedia article, there are several known exceptions. So, this dictum did fail the test of falsifiability. What I dont know is "how frequently do these exceptions occur compared to how frequently are these laws upheld?". That will give an idea of the relative strength of these laws. Please share if you have some data on this front.
What has been criticized is the early 20th century neo-grammarian insistence that the only sound changes are exceptionless changes. What is now acknowledged that there are exceptionless sound changes as well as exceptional sound changes. Kiparsky sums up the academic concensus well here

http://www.stanford.edu/~kiparsky/Papers/workshop.pdf
The existence of an important class of exceptionless sound changes grounded in natural articulatory processes is not in doubt. It is the claim that only kind of sound change that is under question, and the evidence that tells against it is primarily of two types:
... Goes on to give evidence of non-universal sound change ...
To give some historical background to Kiparsky's summary of neo-grammarian standpoint and it's criticism - what were once considered irregularities in the sound change, have since been explained by deeper analysis of phonetics and now considered regular. So please be careful looking at 60s and 70s literature criticising the neo-grammarian principles.

An example of Kiparsky's exceptional sound change are milder forms of perjoratives like 'shoot', 'gooddarn', 'friggin'. None of these are regular sound changes.
Prem Kumar wrote: a) If a new sound is introduced into an existing population, it will be modified by the phonetic-ability-state of this population

b) The factors affecting the change are their existing vocabulary and phonetic ability. Perhaps even physical structures of the mouth, jaw and throat due to genetic differences. This change may or may not follow universal sound laws.

c) If for example, a new sound is introduced that has a similar pronounciation structure in the existing vocabulary (in relatively large number of words), it will likely be reproduced without corruption. If not, it will "settle" into the nearest phonetic neighbor that is prevalent "in that population". This settling down (or corruption) may either follow the "universal sound law" or it may not. It depends on the population's state.
Agreed on all counts - this is well know effect of substrates. But keep in mind that sound change happens even in complete absence of substrates. There are sociological processes why some sound changes become more prevalent:
1. Prestige: people tend to copy articulatory processes of prestigious people (eg. aping of American accent)
2. Class distinction: people tend to adopt articulatory differences to differentiate themselves from a section of population whom they wish to distance based on ideology or social class.
I am not saying that sound laws cannot be universal. Some rules may be universally applicable. But we cant assume that all rules apply everywhere.
What you say is exactly what the academic concensus is today.
My hypothesis makes things messy, but I feel is more representative of reality. It also demands more data (i.e. knowledge of the state of a language in the recipient population) before making predictions.
Here I will disagree. The fact that there do occur exceptional sound changes in no way refutes some of the exceptionless sound changes, based on which the picture of IE family tree today stands. Eg. to prove Sanskrit as the head of IE tree, one would have to refute the key unidirectional sound change - palatalization in presence of front - vowels.

To give an analogy from Physics, it is known that Newton's laws of Gravity bend under relativistic conditions - so Newton's laws are not exceptionless. But, one cannot use those exceptions to prove that Earth is flat. The Earth became a sphere under the Newtonian laws of gravity that turned the molten material that separated from the Sun into a sphere under the force of it's own Gravity.
The "universal sound laws" hypothesis is clean but is an idealization.
Borne by a substantial body of evidence. Eg. the book I referred to Mallory & Adams "The Oxford introduction to Proto-Indo-European". One has to read the book to gauge the sheer breadth of lexical evidence that obeys universality of sound laws.
I had also noted yesterday that the tree model most likely has a Judeo-Christian theological basis to it. Not that its a disqualification by itself, but its a pointer to why linguists started off with the tree assumption in the first place and resist changing it (due to career reasons or worldview reasons or simply because the alternate hypotheses are too hard)
The tree just represents the relative order based on sound changes. Languages have properties other than phonetics - eg. morphology, vocabulary etc. It's a myth that Linguist dumbly use only a tree to graphically represent isoglosses in languages. Eg see this figure from Hock "Out of India ? The linguistic evidence"

Image

OT banter: I'm sorry I don't see what theology has to do here. The key principles of Christian belief that I understand are immaculate conception, resurrection and faith forgives sins. None of which apply as Linguists don't believe languages are of divine origin (devabhāṣa) , nor do they believe that dead languages will rise up, nor that faith in their theories will absolve them of sins. And aren't trees too looked down in those theologies ? Christ had some rancour with the fig tree, so did Adam with the apple that fell from the tree ;-)
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Arjun »

RajeshA wrote:Can one take the AIT to Supreme Court in India and make the establishment historians naked there?
If the Ram-Janmabhoomi issue could go to court & historical arguments heard out - why not AIT? The crucial issue out here is not the right of historians to continue to speculate on the origin of languages - but what is the level of conclusiveness of evidence required in order to force such vacuous speculation on school kids ? Any sane judge would surely throw this out of history books.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

That reminds me of the comparison I made between linguistic and CFD validation couple of days back
Venug Garu,

Good analogy of CFD. It can also be thought of confusing 'Tracking' with 'Trending'.
KLP Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 1310
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by KLP Dubey »

ManishH wrote:Here I will disagree. The fact that there do occur exceptional sound changes in no way refutes some of the exceptionless sound changes, based on which the picture of IE family tree today stands. Eg. to prove Sanskrit as the head of IE tree, one would have to refute the key unidirectional sound change - palatalization in presence of front - vowels.
Absolutely nothing of the sort is necessary. The pratishakhya is the documentary evidence that the "Sanskrit" pronunciation is the oldest. Do you have any testimony of sound changes going the other way ? Speculations not validated by witness/material testimony/documentation do not count.
To give an analogy from Physics, it is known that Newton's laws of Gravity bend under relativistic conditions - so Newton's laws are not exceptionless. But, one cannot use those exceptions to prove that Earth is flat. The Earth became a sphere under the Newtonian laws of gravity that turned the molten material that separated from the Sun into a sphere under the force of it's own Gravity.
Trying to give nonsensical speculations a legitimacy of their own by attempted analogy to scientific documentation ? It won't work. When you say "it is known that....", what it means is that there is written/documented testimony to this effect, and it is furthermore repeatable. If there was no testimony to that effect, nobody would believe you till you produce the evidence yourself. In the case of science, you can produce the evidence by conducting your own experiments and recording the observations. In the case of history, YOU MUST VALIDATE YOUR SPECULATIONS BY COMING UP WITH A MATERIAL TESTIMONY IN THE FORM OF A TEXTUAL RECORD.

Why should any sane individual believe "sound change" speculations?

KL
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Manish garu,
I know you talked about how linguistics studies depend on archeology and other studies. But first:
1. Are there any validation studies done to say that phonetic changes and linguistic theories are solid and are based on rigor? No not the voice tracts. Voice tracts sound origination is not validation of phonetic changes. If studies have been done, references and exceptions, could you be kind enough to refer us to them ?
2. If there are no validation studies done, then why this certainty that one has to base a nation's history on linguistics, when it is no way complete? Don't you think it is irresponsible?
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Arjun ji,

I have a strong feeling that within 10 years AIT would land up in the Supreme Court!

The Internet has allowed people to read both sides of the issue and analyze the statements against primary evidence. It has empowered the people. At some point in time, the people's frustration with the establishment historians, AIT-Sepoys and government treachery would boil over and then they will approach the Supreme Court!

In the court, these establishment historians would not be able to do hand-waving and ignoring the arguments of the Indigenists.

The establishment historians in India are worthless. The Supreme Court would now have to decide what our history is!
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Arjun »

venug wrote:That reminds me of the comparison I made between linguistic and CFD validation couple of days back
Agree. Not only CFD....most fields that involve vast amounts of base data. Economics, stock market analytics, discovery research in medicine - all are pure and simple 'curve fitting' exercises. There will always be patterns that emerge - but while all the other fields mentioned are falsifiable, the models in comparative linguistics are not. That's the core difference - and root of trouble.

ManishH ji makes all these claims about sound correspondence in IE languages - but Malati Shengde has published huge amounts of details on Sanskrit -Akkadian sound correspondences which are also based on verb roots. But then agreeing to Sanskrit correspondence with Akkadian / Sumerian would completely demolish IE theory.

As Bji also stated today on another thread...
Both of these seem to rely exclusively on "pattern searching" without realizin g that the human brain is hardwired to find patterns in even random dots and that different brains will extract different patterns from the same dots depending on prior beliefs and predilections.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

ManishH wrote:To give an analogy from Physics, it is known that Newton's laws of Gravity bend under relativistic conditions - so Newton's laws are not exceptionless. But, one cannot use those exceptions to prove that Earth is flat. The Earth became a sphere under the Newtonian laws of gravity that turned the molten material that separated from the Sun into a sphere under the force of it's own Gravity.
'Exceptions' to Newton's laws forced series of researchers - Plank, Born, Maxwell, etc. culminating in Einstein proposing a theory that was radically different that that of Newton's theory, but included successes of Newton's theory and also provided solutions to the problems Newtonian theory could not deal with. In short it lead to progress. It also showed how Newton's theory is special case of Einstein's theory of relativity (i.e. at speeds much slower than lights, Newton's theory presents decent approximation).

Against this... Linguistics (at least in case of AIT) use 'exception proves the rule' axiom to keep on justifying proposed model of yesteryeas, irresepctive of series of exceptions, rather than openly considering possibility of alternate theories which may preserve the success of PIE (whatever it may be) and provide solutions to glaring exceptions. If that is not laziness, then what is!
ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

Dubeyji you are knowledge-able about prātiśākhyā. So can you tell me that if prātiśākhyā's gave unambiguous direction on how to articulate vedic sounds and they are immutable original sounds,

0. Why do even trained vedic paṇḍit-s make the mistaken articulation (called palatalization with front vowels). See this audio excerpt in my post here where rayim of agni-sūkta is pronounced as 'rajim'
viewtopic.php?p=1296330#p1296330
1. Why do some vedic branches articulate अग्निम् ईळे and some say ईडे ?
2. Why does 1st pada of this mantra fall one syllable short of that required by the anuṣṭubh metre ?
RV_05.025 sa no dhītī variṣṭhayā śreṣṭhayā ca sumatyā
RV_05.025 agne rāyo didīhi naḥ suvṛktibhir vareṇya

The fact is that even in the presence of systematic methods to conserve vedic sound (vikṛti-s and several pāṭha-s), human speech has been susceptible to sound change.

I respect your opinion that ṛgvedic sound is original divine sound of the universe. That's exactly what I was taught by my teachers in childhood and is an accurate representation of Indian vedic tradition.

But respect for tradition doesn't preclude one from using deeper knowledge of human sound apparatus and articulation and the sound changes it can realize.
KLP Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 1310
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by KLP Dubey »

Arjun wrote: There will always be patterns that emerge - but while all the other fields mentioned are falsifiable, the models in comparative linguistics are not. That's the core difference - and root of trouble.
Don't forget to mention that in the case of past events, the only admissible means of falsification (of the 6 available "pramanas") is testimony (shabda). The entire framework of PIE nonsense is based upon inadmissible uses of the other 5 pramanas (e.g., comparison) to analyze past events.

All the other 5 pramanas can ONLY be used for the purpose of analyzing testimony, without which the whole matter strictly becomes one of fiction. This is the same principle used in jurisprudence. In that field, people who construct a case not supported by testimony are, for example:

1) thrown out of court
2) fined or jailed
3) remanded to mental institutions

KL
Last edited by KLP Dubey on 13 Sep 2012 18:47, edited 2 times in total.
KLP Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 1310
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by KLP Dubey »

ManishH wrote:The fact is that even in the presence of systematic methods to conserve vedic sound (vikṛti-s and several pāṭha-s), human speech has been susceptible to sound change.
You are not getting the point. Nobody denies sounds change due to human tendencies. All examples you posted come under that. We are talking about the "direction" of the sound changes.

Have you not read the section on speech defects in the pratishakhya ? That section simply needs to be expanded to catalogue every such example you have listed, and others.
I respect your opinion that ṛgvedic sound is original divine sound of the universe. That's exactly what I was taught by my teachers in childhood and is an accurate representation of Indian vedic tradition.
The present discussion does not have anything to do with the eternal nature of Rgvedic sound. This is not about respect for tradition. We are simply talking about testimony here. The pratishakhya is the oldest phonetic record and its antiquity is attested by innumerable sources. Furthermore, it tells you how to pronounce the sounds with clear reference to the human anatomy.

Again, the question is: do you have (or not) an older phonetic record ?

KL
peter
BRFite
Posts: 1207
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 11:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by peter »

KLP Dubey wrote:... ....
Why do you say Vedic proper names are not historical?

Nadi stuti sukta mentions river which is where they are found today too. The order is also correct.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

This thread is apolitical. However Dr. Subramanian Swamy is addressing this particular issue, I am posting his address here.



Dr. Subramanian Swamy at book release function of "Breaking India" by Dr. Rajeev Malhotra.

Subramanian Swamy talks about Myths of Aryan Invasion Theory and conspiracy to divide India.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

peter wrote:
KLP Dubey wrote:... ....
Why do you say Vedic proper names are not historical?

Nadi stuti sukta mentions river which is where they are found today too. The order is also correct.
peter ji,

that issue has already been addressed here in the past. Please invite KLP Dubey ji to another thread to discuss it there.

Thanks
Locked